Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

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fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

ForbiddenWonder posted:

RE: Vale Tudo

I never hear ya'll talk about it, like at all. Are there any must-watch matches or anything like that?

If you want actual Vale Tudo fights where the only rules are no eye gouging and (sometimes) no groin shots, search for "IVC" and look for fights with Wanderlei Silva and Pedro Rizzo. Hope you like headbutts and soccer kicks.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 05:58

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 02:27

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

ForbiddenWonder posted:

thanks, I was just curious where mma came from pre UFC besides shootfighting, judo etc. I hear Vovchanchyn would have been better if he hadn't hosed up his hands doing this sort of thing, right?

Vovchanchyn actually retired because one of his elbows was so hosed up it had to have pins put in it, not his hands.

Mr. Carlisle posted:

With the rise in popularity of MMA has traditional Boxing taken a major hit in popularity nowadays? How would you compare it to the days of Tyson (just throwing a popular name out there, I know nothing about boxing anymore) and the guys that could command millions for a single fight? Do they still do that level of business for major fights today?

I'm not gonna try to compare popularity, but in terms of money, the guys headlining a top card will make millions in boxing and in the UFC. The UFC headliners will make less than the boxing headliners, but the undercard guys in the UFC will typically make significantly more than undercard guys in boxing.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 06:47

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

jeffersonlives posted:

Pancrase only broke off from the other UWF remnants a few months before UFC started, and the work percentage for Pancrase fights at the beginning was far higher than later on (same thing with RINGS and even PRIDE).

Before that MMA in the 20th century would have mostly consisted of vale tudo, of which things like records and video are pretty scarce on, and your occasional freak show mixed matches like Inoki/Ali and Gracie/Kimura. If you go back even further to around the turn of the century, the origins of professional wrestling were a shoot and then it starts getting real confusing.

Actually Shooto did their first professional shoot show in 1989. There was no punching on the ground but it was still a legitimate mixed grappling/striking event.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 17:36

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

A Pale Horse posted:

Yeah, that fight definitely deserves to be on there, its an outdated slopfest by today's standards but it is literally the fight that saved American MMA and is still pretty entertaining.

Yeah, this. It's fashionable for mma snobs to hate on it because it wasn't a tremendously technical fight, but it's not even slightly exaggerating to call it the most important fight in MMA history.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 21:31

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Oh Em Gee posted:

IIRC Tank Abbot knocked out a guy and openly mocked him while he seized the gently caress up from being actually punched in the face.

John Matua, master of "Hawaiian Bone Breaking", but by the time Abbot came around there were time limits in place already

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 23:09

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Ziggy Tsardust posted:

However did you guess? Maybe it has something to do with tonight being the Greatest night in the history of our sport! (for those not in the know, Schiavone used to say this every loving week)

Also, didn't UFC 1 basically have a guy who's main qualification was some McDojo karate stuff being thrown in as a last-minute replacement for someone else?

That was Fred Ettish in UFC 2.

Interestingly enough, Fred actually went on to train with Pat Miletich, and became an active and fairly well-respected judge and referee in the midwest mma scene. He even fought again last year. He also posts on the Underground (the oldest and probably most popular mma forum on the web (do not go there)) and takes the regular threads about his UFC 2 performance with remarkable good grace.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 23:31

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Skinty McEdger posted:

While on the subject of judges, which officals are the ones that MMA fans groan the world over when they hear they are scoring the fight? I know the name Cecil Peoples only through his bad reputation, are there any others and do MMA judges deserve their terrible reputation?

Adelaide Byrd is the worst judge in boxing and mma, bar none.

Cecil Peoples actually judges fights pretty well when they stay standing the whole time; as soon as a fight hits the ground though he starts to flip a coin or judge on who has the nicest hair or something.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 23:39

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Coitus_Interruptus posted:

Nobuaki Kakuda, affectionately known as Kakuda-san is an insufferable cheating oval office. In a sea of insufferable cheats.

He is the most "experienced" and veteran of the K1 Referee's and is constantly the main ref in big title fights. He is infamous for his horribly inconsistent application of the rules. He changes expectations about what is acceptable in the clinch, he arbitrarily waves off legitimate knockdowns, or awards them. He's been known to brag about the impact he's had on fights he has been officiating.

Apparently this doesn't count as a knockdown because... well because gently caress it.

He was such a gigantic cheating oval office that K1 themselves we're forced to ban him briefly as punishment. When the fighting organization that is infamous for cheating whenever its convenient thinks you've crossed the line. You've got a real loving problem.

I pretty much cringe whenever he is in the ring. I've lost count of how many times he has dramatically decreased the quality of fights, or flat our ruined them. gently caress Kakuda right to death.

Fun Fact: Nobuaki is actually Japanese for "Hebner"

# ¿ Feb 2, 2011 23:49

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Big Bob Pataki posted:

us Texans dont want any of that human being Hugging poo poo so standups are pretty frequent

Texas judges and refs are lovely in boxing too, though

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 00:29

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Paul Pot posted:

Wrestlehut, don't trust a man with Overeem avatar.

If K-1 is gonna decide that knockdown vs Remy didn't count because he was kicking at the time, then Buakaw should have another win vs Masato and another win vs Kraus.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 00:37

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

savinhill posted:

Does Peter Welch still work in UFC, and if so, does he have a prominent position?

Unless we're talking about a different dude, Peter Welch's only current association with the UFC is that he's Kenny Florian's (and now also Brock Lesnar's) boxing coach.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 01:10

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

I'm probably in the minority in that I actually quite like Seanbaby, although I can only take him in extremely small doses anymore

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 01:22

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

RobBorer posted:

It may be a good idea to have fight breakdowns and small fighter bios for this weekend's GDT so WrestleFolk who are interested know what's going on.

I strongly recommend this.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:25

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

kensei posted:

Jeez extra pressure!

I was planning on linking to the wikipedia articles in the op along with pictures and stuff in an effort post. Is it still cool to post on Thursday afternoon?

Wikipedia articles are good; also a brief blurb for each matchup explaining what it means (if anything) in the division or for each fighter's career. It doesn't have to be a huge exhaustive analysis, but something that gives newcomers some kind of context for the fights would be good.

In general you gotta expect that for the next few events we're gonna have a lot more newer people reading the threads so some effort towards making it easy for them to understand what's going on would be appreciated on all sides, I think.

Also just because kensei's doing the OP doesn't mean other people can't chime in as well. Once the thread gets posted, if there's a particular match you're really interested in, feel free to post in the thread giving more details about the background of the fight.

And yeah, Thursday afternoon is fine. At the very least, the thread should be up by Friday afternoon so people who watch the weigh-ins can post about them in it.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 02:44

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

jeffersonlives posted:

Rich has been in a lot of big fights and only lost to Silva twice, Belfort, and Lyoto Machida, all top fighters and champions.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 04:34

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Beeswax posted:

So is there anyone who has a legitimate argument for using the ten point must system, apart from "b..but boxing!"

No other judging system used in mma so far has produced better judging outcomes than the 10 point must system, and several have done worse.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 16:25

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Ghost Head posted:

He appears to be dead. What an incredible shame, especially at that age. According to his bio on Wikipedia, he beat cro-cop (even I know who this guy is) only a couple of months before dying of cancer. Amazing. He would have been a legend if he isn't already considered one.

iirc his ashes are actually in a shrine in Japan. He was a hardcore Kyokushin guy who competed at the very highest level of kickboxing at a time when it was quite popular; they loving loved him over there.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 16:34

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Paul Pot posted:

do tell

I did.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 18:17

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Mr. Carlisle posted:

Seems like a trained fighter would know right away when a guy is legit knocked out

This is untrue a lot more often than you'd think.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2011 20:56

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Zwachro posted:

I sort of want to cite Nogueira-Rodriguez as a counterexample here. At least I recall being okay with the outcome (Nog won due to the 'effort to finish' criterium which was more explicit under PRIDE rules than under Must)

Nog won due to the "Being the guy we want to win" criterion, as evidenced by the fact that there is not a single other fight in PRIDE history where a guy dominated position and lost a decision, despite the fact that Arona and Sherk both fought in Pride.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2011 01:14

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Coitus_Interruptus posted:

Hey fatherdog, what do you think of an offtopic PSP Thread, similer to the Paulo Wanchope Memorial in Ray Parlour to contain all of the off topic and generic bullshit we get into on a regular basis in our other threads?

I reckon that between events mma news isn't so fast that the off-topic bullshit really becomes a problem, and frankly the digressions that organically arise from long threads tend to be a lot more tolerable than the morass of poo poo that off-topic threads usually turn into, so I don't think we really need one at the moment. If things change over the next few weeks/months I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2011 01:30

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

DumbWhiteGuy posted:

This is the best fight I've ever seen based 100% on the fight. It had almost no relevance to anything, and I'm not a big fan of either fighter, but the fight itself is loving awesome.

Beginning of the third round staredown is awesome because both guys look like they're psyching themselves up to kill the other dude with their teeth.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2011 23:24

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

RobBorer posted:

Combine that with him getting roles in B movies that paid just as well as fighting, and Herring decided to retire.

Heath hasn't actually officially retired and even has a fight left on his contract, but he's focusing on movie work right now. He was in three movies last year and he's scheduled for four this year, so even on lovely B-movie pay scales he's probably making more than he would fighting for significantly less work.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2011 20:58

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

projecthalaxy posted:

Is there a clear winner for longest, most impressive/pathetic ducking of one fight in MMA? I mean we have a whole thread on Fedor ducking Overeem, Diaz ducking Mayhem comes up a lot, is there some clear historical best duck?

Tamura/Sakuraba lasted quite a while; Saku was calling him out as early as 2003 iirc and the match didn't get made till like 2008

Fedor was originally supposed to fight Crocop in 2003 and that wound up getting staved off till around 2005

# ¿ Feb 5, 2011 23:57

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Giovanni Qobras posted:

How long did Tito duck Chuck? That seemed like the standard bearer for a long time

That was around 2 or 3 years as I recall, although it certainly wins points for blatancy. "I won't fight Chuck, we're good friends and we have a pact!" "No we're not and no we don't." "Uh... give me more money! A lot more money!"

# ¿ Feb 6, 2011 00:48

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Bubba Smith posted:

God injured my friend so I can step over his hard work and get the title shot.

His hard work of waiting nine months

# ¿ Feb 6, 2011 20:07

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Jones is a herb who has entertaining, good fights. Enjoy watching him in the cage, enjoy laughing at him outside of it. Do not let one interfere with your enjoyment of the other. You will be a happier mma fan for it.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2011 20:27

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

If his middle name was "Futbol", Thiago would have about the most Brazilian name you could possibly come up with

# ¿ Feb 7, 2011 06:13

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

LvK posted:

I know that in UFC and other MMA promotions, there's a rule against manipulation of small joints like fingers, etc. I know there are plenty of good reasons for it and I'm honestly afraid to find out, but... is there precedent for this poo poo happening in the ring?

Broken fingers rarely actually affect the match, but they result in the fighter being laid up for weeks and months afterwards, which means less fights.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2011 18:09

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Mr. Carlisle posted:

One thing I've always wondered for the guys that are just starting out and make very little money - how do they survive? It seems as if the costs of just getting themselves stitched up and rehabilitated after a fight (if they took a beating) would cost far more than how much they'd make from their first few fights. Do they get any sort of medical coverage by the company or is it like pro wrestling where they are considered independent contractors and have to fend for themselves?

In New Jersey (and I think most states), promoters are required to carry event insurance, so any injury that you incur during an actual fight is covered. Injuries during training are not.

quote:

Do they try to fit in fight training time during their day jobs?

This is the case for most lower level guys. A lot of them teach at the schools they train at for extra cash, most do some kind of part-time or contract work or other things that let them set their own hours.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2011 18:16

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Mr. Carlisle posted:

Add to that the schedule of only like three or four fights a year and I couldn't see how these guys could survive without being a top star or having sponsorship money.

There's also the fact that even guys on local shows usually do have sponsors.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2011 18:27

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Wristlocks are legal, just uncommon.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2011 21:11

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Meat Recital posted:

3-4 fights a year is common in the UFC/Strikeforce

Once a year is a lot more common in Strikeforce

# ¿ Feb 8, 2011 02:25

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

red19fire posted:

Is there a particular name for this kind of wristlock? it looks like the recipient is getting the same style of arm crank as a kimura, just with a leg triangle around the shoulder. Or am I mistaken?

The armlock is called an omoplata and is (as you thought) a shoulderlock. Because Akebono is so drat big Royce couldn't quite finish it, so he finished with the wristlock.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2011 05:28

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

JamMaster Flash posted:

MMA fighter reporting in.

I have a part time job that pays most of the bills (and gives me health insurance, that is the main benefit). I am a brown belt in BJJ so I teach group and private lessons on the side as well.

I have gotten free stitches a couple times after fights, but like fatherdog said, most of my real injuries come from training.

But yeah, my typical day is working 4am - 12pm then training, chilling for a few hours then training again. On days I don't work I can train more, and I will usually try to pull less hours if I am getting ready for a fight.

It's a tough lifestyle, especially lower on the food chain...I essentially have to work as hard as the top guys in order to compete with them, but I also have to make sure I have enough money for MRI's, new shinguards and fish oil. I have been told by my trainer that to make it you have to make sacrifices, and I have learned that firsthand during my amateur and pro career. I plan on seeing how far I can take it, since I am still young and I feel I am getting better every day. There's no better encouragement than that!

If anyone is interested maybe I could make a thread for questions or something, since there's all this space in the new subforum, haha.

There are a lot of new posters now; I reckon that would get some interest. Do you have another fight scheduled yet, by the way?

# ¿ Feb 9, 2011 04:45

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

BlindSite posted:

Traditionally Thai boxers will kick and elbow tree trunks to build up their shin bones.

This is a little misleading. Extremely poor Thai camps (when necessary) use banana trees, which are more like a thick stem than an actual trunk; they're not like kicking solid wood. And the very first thing a camp buys when it gets some fighter purse money is generally a bag and pads.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2011 00:28

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Jack of Hearts posted:

Yeah, I meant historically.

MMA didn't exist historically. The heavyweight division sucks in both sports right now because both sports are centered in American, and in America basketball and football are such incredible money machines they suck up most guys that big with athletic talent.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2011 03:27

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Jack of Hearts posted:

Yeah, I meant historically.

e: Although actually the question sort of applies to K-1 kickboxing as well. How come other sports get awesome big dudes?

Holland doesn't have football and basketball sucking up all the talented big guys, is why.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2011 03:28

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Bubba Smith posted:

could we enforce a no fighter bashing rule fatherdog. thx

I don't even enforce a no fatherdog bashing rule, I'm certainly not going to spend my time as a moderator protecting professional fighters' delicate feelings

# ¿ Feb 13, 2011 18:31

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# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 02:27

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

Jack of Hearts posted:

Goddamn polite, non-loutish Japanese fans! How come they get to have nice things and we don't?

Correct, Japanese judges never bowed to pressure from the crowd when scoring for the guy that the promotion/fans obviously wanted to win.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2011 16:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

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