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 After his wife and children were murdered for witnessing a mob hit former US Marine Frank Castle changed. No longer an ordinary man he now spends his life as The Punisher; a constant force of violence in an ongoing war against crime. Never stopping, even when dead, Frank Castle uses every weapon at his disposal to murder every criminal in his sight and try to prevent another family from sharing his fate. Character Introduction & Essential Reading quote:Max Line quote:PunisherMax Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 2, 2011 19:42
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This thread is to discuss all things related to the non stop bad guy killing machine that is Frank Castle and celebrate the fact that PunisherMax #010 finally comes out next week 
Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 2, 2011 |
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Feb 2, 2011 19:46
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I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how similar to the Max tone Remender's been in In The Blood. Frank's the least interesting character and barely shows up in most issues, but he's still pretty fascinating and seems to know he's losing it, but doesn't really care. My only worry is that the Maria reveal will be disappointing. Give us a good, cathartic explanation for her turning on Frank, not just 'evil magic/mind control/drugs/not really her'. And Punisher Max #10 is coming out? The songs and stories spoke true? 
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Feb 2, 2011 19:50
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Yeah I was surprised as well with how the only difference, violence wise, between In The Blood and Max seems to be how much visible gore is one the page. The violence matches the tone of the story perfectly though part of me does wonder if it was done due to "backlash" from the direction the book had taken. In regards to Maria I'm sure that there's some last twist in regards to her resurrection, that it's either not the real her or that Frank has done something along the way to help her.
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Feb 2, 2011 20:28
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Stranger things have happened! Stranger things like confirmation of a fourth Punisher movie being in the offing. Also can Welcome Back, Frank go on the required reading list please? It's hilarious. What I like about the current incarnation of the Punisher (bearing in mind I've only read up to the end of Ennis' run on Max) is that in the space of 10 years he went from blowing up CIA funded and constructed crack dens in space to actual, honest-to-god vigilante murder fantasies. There was one thing that really stuck in my craw with Ennis' run and it first happened in the Streets of Loredo story back in Marvel Knights. Frank Castle had sex. I know that sounds like quite a weird observation to make (and it is!) but hear me out on this one. Frank's actions as the Punisher have been about an extended and hyper-violent grieving. The loss of his family, the psychological breakdown he suffered as part of his deal at the end of Born, the events of The Tiger and all of that meant that when his family were gunned down he... went into a grief driven rampage. He was a murderous rear end in a top hat but you kind of felt for the guy. You kind of sympathised with him. But then he hosed some random hotel owner. A grieving person doesn't tend to do that. So he's not grieving, now he's just an rear end in a top hat.
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Feb 2, 2011 20:35
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Aaron addressed that point in a way in the recent Max relaunch. Frank started this because of his family, but it stopped being about that a long time ago. He does it because he's forgotten how to do anything else, take the Punisher away from him and what's left?
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Feb 2, 2011 20:40
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Sion posted:Stranger things have happened! Stranger things like confirmation of a fourth Punisher movie being in the offing. Also can Welcome Back, Frank go on the required reading list please? It's hilarious. I feel like an important element in both Ennis and Aaron's work is the notion that after so many years it just stops being about his family. He continues on because it's the only way he knows how to live anymore. He is a broken, emotionally dead shell of man. When he succeeds in his mission and kills a few more criminals it ultimately provides himself with nothing. He is not a main to be sympathized with, but pitied. He is a man whom joy has fled. Sex is able to provide pleasure on a pure physical level to the extent that it is perhaps the one pleasure that he can still feel since his nerve centers in his brain and penis still function. The deeper emotional pleasures of actually loving someone or something, the actual joy we all manage to get out of human life, is unknowable to Frank. The Punisher is sometimes criticized for glorify vigilante action, but Ennis and Aaron avoid doing this by showing that it has no real positive effects. Sure the Punisher always "wins" in the context of each story, but the criminal element recuperates and Frank is back to square one with only another piece of his humanity discarded. The only destination for someone who would attempt the Punisher's path is the absolute nadir of human misery.
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Feb 2, 2011 20:47
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Yeah I really liked the scene in PunisherMax #007 where Frank can't remember the sound of his wife's voice, showing just how pathetic his quest has left him. It'd be interesting, after the Bullseye arc, to have Frank attempt to examine his life and his war, especially as each issue shows his body less capable to cope.
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Feb 2, 2011 21:10
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Sion posted:Frank Castle had sex. He had sex early on a few times, in the graphic novels. He nails a brothel worker in "Return To Big Nothing," and sleeps with a ninja lady in "Assassin's Guild." I think the discussion you guys have started are what keeps me coming back to The Punisher. Sure, there's elements of revenge fantasy and seeing people get blowed up and blood and guts and manly-guy stuff, but... how long could anyone actually do what Frank Castle's been doing and still live? Even in the context of the Marvel Universe, his continued survival is a miracle. But what would motivate a human being to keep at it as long as he has? The only way it's even conceivable to me is if, like others wrote, he really had nothing else. He's been at war so long he can't NOT be at war because he has no clue how to be anything else. The early Ennis stories hinted that deep down, Punisher just really truly loves what he does -- he fell in love in with war in 'Nam and after his family's death (which was surely traumatizing) he had no reason to not indulge it. I think if you put those two concepts together you get a realistic idea of why Punisher does what he does. And that's where it gets interesting, because morally and psychologically he's probably worse than the people he kills, even if he is the "hero." From there, we go down the rabbit hole and start asking ourselves some fairly dark questions about why we'd be rooting for such a monstrous human being. Punisher's the only comic book hero that ever made me take a long, hard look at myself -- and for that I'll always be a fan.
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Feb 2, 2011 21:15
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Waterhaul posted:Yeah I really liked the scene in PunisherMax #007 where Frank can't remember the sound of his wife's voice, showing just how pathetic his quest has left him. It'd be interesting, after the Bullseye arc, to have Frank attempt to examine his life and his war, especially as each issue shows his body less capable to cope. The issue 12 solicit (in the April Marvel solicits) seems to suggest that the series will head in that direction.
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Feb 2, 2011 22:18
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One of my favorite articles on The Punisher written by none other than Gavok: Marvel Universe Versus the Punisher And can I request "Marvel Universe Versus The Punisher" and "The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe" be added to the list?
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Feb 3, 2011 03:27
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JustV posted:And can I request "Marvel Universe Versus The Punisher" and "The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe" be added to the list? Seconding. I was amazed when Jonathan Maberry went from Omega the Unknown to the Punisher, but then they put Goran Parlov on the art, and then I knew it was going to be for real. Speaking of Goran Parlov, The Punisher Presents: Barracuda was a fun little mini about old-school warmongering that ended up tying up a plot hole between two arcs of Ennis' run on Punisher MAX.
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Feb 3, 2011 04:28
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Ennis' forward in Welcome Back, Frank should be required reading for drat near everyone. It's basically him going on about how he can't even try to defend Castle since he's so reprehensible, but it's just mindless entertainment so who cares? Obviously he phrases it better, but I feel like it should be attached to every piece of entertainment that ever comes out.
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Feb 3, 2011 04:53
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I got lost trying to keep up with all the Frankencastle stuff, so sorry for the dumb question. How did Frank get resurrected/turned back to human?
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Feb 3, 2011 04:59
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Baggot posted:I got lost trying to keep up with all the Frankencastle stuff, so sorry for the dumb question. How did Frank get resurrected/turned back to human? They put the Bloodstone, which Morbius was secretly holding onto and what the villains were out for, inside his chest so it would repair his body. Then he had a rematch with Daken in Japan, went to Monster Island and hung out there for a few weeks till he got better.
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Feb 3, 2011 05:02
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So, is In The Blood worth reading if you've only read the Marvel Knigts and MAX Punisher? I mean, I know who Jigsaw is, for example, but I've never read any stories with him and I haven't read any of the non-MAX stories recently, but In The Blood definitely sounds good... Also, I want to second the reccomendation for Marvel Universe Vs The Punisher. That was a really good story and it really nailed what makes The Punisher such an intersting character. choobs fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 05:34
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In The Blood is a direct follow up to his last 616 series, so you'll be kind of lost if you start there. Also, I'll believe MAX 10 is coming out when I have it in my hands.
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Feb 3, 2011 05:46
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Sprecherscrow posted:I feel like an important element in both Ennis and Aaron's work is the notion that after so many years it just stops being about his family. He continues on because it's the only way he knows how to live anymore. He is a broken, emotionally dead shell of man. When he succeeds in his mission and kills a few more criminals it ultimately provides himself with nothing. He is not a main to be sympathized with, but pitied. He is a man whom joy has fled. Sex is able to provide pleasure on a pure physical level to the extent that it is perhaps the one pleasure that he can still feel since his nerve centers in his brain and penis still function. The deeper emotional pleasures of actually loving someone or something, the actual joy we all manage to get out of human life, is unknowable to Frank. The Punisher is sometimes criticized for glorify vigilante action, but Ennis and Aaron avoid doing this by showing that it has no real positive effects. Sure the Punisher always "wins" in the context of each story, but the criminal element recuperates and Frank is back to square one with only another piece of his humanity discarded. The only destination for someone who would attempt the Punisher's path is the absolute nadir of human misery. I took 'Born' a different way: I saw it as giving a real reason for the Punisher's rampage. In all honesty, the Punisher is not about avenging his family but settling into what he really, truly is. Every Punisher story, at its heart, uses the death of his family only as a justification. It's about the planning and the violence. As Ennis says, this isn't a problem because it's mindless violence. But as "Born" shows, this is what Frank really is. He likes the violence and the military offered him that opportunity to indulge even at the expense of a peaceful life. The life he wants is one where his life is constantly being threatened, where he's going up against bad guys that never stop forming despite his efforts, and that he can dominate people physically. It's no longer about stopping crime: that would mean the punishing would have no purpose. It's all about swimming in the misery and corruption for the sheer sake of it. Sure, occasionally Frank goes emo, but he's really the definition of a directionless person. As long as his lack of direction is punctuated by gunfire, he could give a poo poo. He's not solving any problems, the world's corruption is his personal playground to destroy. Frank isn't miserable: he's in his element. This is what he has chosen to live his life. He's certainly not miserable about it.
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Feb 3, 2011 08:04
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Cadavers4Algernon posted:They put the Bloodstone, which Morbius was secretly holding onto and what the villains were out for, inside his chest so it would repair his body. Then he had a rematch with Daken in Japan, went to Monster Island and hung out there for a few weeks till he got better. How did the rematch go? Also: Was I the only person that was pissed that Frank wasn't even killed in his own book?
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Feb 3, 2011 12:13
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J.theYellow posted:Speaking of Goran Parlov, The Punisher Presents: Barracuda was a fun little mini about old-school warmongering that ended up tying up a plot hole between two arcs of Ennis' run on Punisher MAX. I've been working my way through the Ennis MAX stuff in bits and pieces, I've read all of it except for Volume 9. I... really didn't care for volume 10. Maybe I didn't "get" it but I found it really boring. Especially compared to prior volumes nothing really happened.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:55
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Sion posted:How did the rematch go? They were pretty evenly matched but Wolverine showed up and stopped Frank from killing Daken. I think ultimately Frank got his rear end kicked again, even if he did barely beat Daken.
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Feb 3, 2011 17:02
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Waterhaul posted:This thread is to discuss all things related to the non stop bad guy killing machine that is Frank Castle and celebrate the fact that PunisherMax #010 finally comes out next week loving wootles. Also, Ennis only did MAX #1-60, not 61. Xenomrph: Volume 9, Long Cold Dark, is seriously the best Punisher MAX story. There's a scene in it that made everyone read it just go "gently caress."
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Feb 3, 2011 18:13
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Dickeye posted:Xenomrph: Volume 9, Long Cold Dark, is seriously the best Punisher MAX story. There's a scene in it that made everyone read it just go "gently caress." I'm seconding this. Vol. 9 is incredible. I don't want to spoil it for you, but it's got almost everything that makes a great Punisher story in one trade.
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Feb 3, 2011 18:20
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Dickeye posted:Xenomrph: Volume 9, Long Cold Dark, is seriously the best Punisher MAX story. There's a scene in it that made everyone read it just go "gently caress." That's up to debate, as I still consider The Slavers the best Punisher MAX story. In terms of artwork and story all around.
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Feb 3, 2011 18:43
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E the Shaggy posted:That's up to debate, as I still consider The Slavers the best Punisher MAX story. In terms of artwork and story all around. Slavers was just Frank getting more upset than he usually does because of the severity of the crime. Long Cold Dark ones up it by having it be the first time since his family died that he's affected personally. There's a bunch of scenes where he talks about how he feels about having to defend his daughter, and how it feels to worry about someone else once again. And at the end, he muses on what his life has become as he walks away from his last experience with anything approaching normalcy, possibly forever. Basically, what Slavers does in being a great story about Frank loving things up, Long Cold Dark destroys in being a great story about Frank loving Frank up/ The last couple of pages are flat fantastic and would have made a much better cap on the run than Valley Forge, if it wasn't for Ennis feeling the need to wrap poo poo up with the generals and do his Vietnam story. Also, Parlov's artwork is awesome and I'd read an entire Punisher series by him. Spoilered for Xenomrph. BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 18:46
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Dickeye posted:The last couple of pages are flat fantastic and would have made a much better cap on the run than Valley Forge, if it wasn't for Ennis feeling the need to wrap poo poo up with the generals and do his Vietnam story. Also, Parlov's artwork is awesome and I'd read an entire Punisher series by him. While I understand the sentiment that the Long Cold Dark would have made a perfect end for Ennis' run, Valley Forge Valley Forge worked really well too, especially considering the heavy references to Punisher: Born, which is how Ennis started the MAX series.
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Feb 3, 2011 19:16
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choobs posted:While I understand the sentiment that the Long Cold Dark would have made a perfect end for Ennis' run, Valley Forge Valley Forge worked really well too, especially considering the heavy references to Punisher: Born, which is how Ennis started the MAX series. I seem to recall that Frank doesn't kill anyone in Valley Forge. I thought that was kind of a nice change of pace.
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Feb 3, 2011 19:19
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Yeah, I don't necessarily think Valley Forge was a bad ending, but Long Cold Dark could have been a better one.E the Shaggy posted:I seem to recall that Frank doesn't kill anyone in Valley Forge. I thought that was kind of a nice change of pace. He kills the generals, but it's off-page. He just beats the poo poo out of the other dudes when they come after him.
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Feb 3, 2011 19:20
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Who wants to talk about the worst Punisher story of all time?.jpg)
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Feb 3, 2011 20:14
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E the Shaggy posted:Who wants to talk about the worst Punisher story of all time? He's on a mission from God?
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Feb 3, 2011 20:25
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Gaz-L posted:He's on a mission from God? Sort of...? As if that wasn't bad enough, at the end of the story, he swears that he'll never kill anyone ever again. Yeesh.
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Feb 3, 2011 20:30
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As much flack as the undead demon Punisher gets, I thought the previous volume by John Ostrander in which the Punisher grows a ponytail and joins the loving mafia was even worse. The justification makes no sense and they quickly abandoned it so Frank could join S.H.I.E.L.D., but the volume was misguided from start to finish. An interesting read if you want to see how dire Marvel became during the EDGE period. They kind of wrote themselves into a corner at the end of the 2nd volume with the whole "Punisher accidentally killed an innocent!" plotline and never recovered until the Ennis run. Given the conversation on the Punisher's twisted morality, it's weird to see how the idea of the Punisher killing innocents has been handled throughout the years. It traditionally never worked with the Punisher since he'd just "punish" himself if he happened to kill an innocent. When this plot is used, it's normally revealed that the Punisher didn't actually kill anyone (Jigsaw did it in the original case, and the girl was already dead "Girls in White Dresses"). This doesn't seem to apply anymore, as the Ennis volume implies that the Punisher can always find a way to justify his murders and write the person off as a bad guy. In Fraction's run, he straight up murders his sidekick's girlfriend and absolves himself because he was under hate control or whatever. In the last Punisher movie, he killed an undercover FBI agent and then just tried to drop a bunch of money on the doorstep of his widow. Maybe the whole "I don't kill innocents" thing is as big a lie as "I'm doing it for my family."
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Feb 3, 2011 20:39
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Tato posted:Given the conversation on the Punisher's twisted morality, it's weird to see how the idea of the Punisher killing innocents has been handled throughout the years. redbackground fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 20:45
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Angel-Punisher was a rotten attempt at reviving a fading character but at least it took a chance, trying something different. And I guess it was a phase they *had* to go through, before they figured out what made him work & went back to basics with the Ennis run. EDIT: I wasn't even aware of this other run where Frank grows a ponytail & joins the mob, then jumps over to SHIELD. You can tell Marvel was really kind of lost on what to do with him for a while. I remember reading "Punisher: P.O.V." and hating it much more. The plot is that some hippie radical gets out of jail & rolls in toxic waste, so he becomes a monster that Castle guns down while hippie-bashing. The art's OK but otherwise it's terrible. Find it in your LCBS quarter bin if you ever need a laugh. There's a great Punisher story that involves him going to France and sneaking onboard a private space station, because they were gonna use it for hoarding drugs somewhere outside the authorities' reach. You never see Punisher in space, so I'm surprised that didn't get more notice. Plus it shows him actually shoot up heroin to maintain his cover as a drug user, which I don't think ever happened anywhere else. picosecond fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 3, 2011 |
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Feb 3, 2011 20:49
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picosecond posted:There's a great Punisher story that involves him going to France and sneaking onboard a private space station, because they were gonna use it for hoarding drugs somewhere outside the authorities' reach. You never see Punisher in space, so I'm surprised that didn't get more notice. Plus it shows him actually shoot up heroin to maintain his cover as a drug user, which I don't think ever happened anywhere else.  One of the best Punisher covers period, only hampered by the fact that bad guys aren't getting broiled alive in shuttle exhaust.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:01
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This was the first Punisher story I remember reading, and it was badass. I need to buy this.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:09
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redbackground posted:Was it this one? HOLY poo poo, yes it was. Thank you so much, I have to go find that comic and re-read it now that I know its name.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:12
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E the Shaggy posted:This was the first Punisher story I remember reading, and it was badass. I need to buy this. Weird thing? Paladin's probably the most heroic of these three.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:14
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Tato posted:As much flack as the undead demon Punisher gets, I thought the previous volume by John Ostrander in which the Punisher grows a ponytail and joins the loving mafia was even worse. The justification makes no sense and they quickly abandoned it so Frank could join S.H.I.E.L.D., but the volume was misguided from start to finish. An interesting read if you want to see how dire Marvel became during the EDGE period. They kind of wrote themselves into a corner at the end of the 2nd volume with the whole "Punisher accidentally killed an innocent!" plotline and never recovered until the Ennis run. Girls In White Dresses handles it best, beacuse he beats himself up over it, realizes what happens, adn goes "Well now I'm gonna gently caress a bitch up twice as hard for making me think that." redbackground posted:I'm thinking of the whole crew of that boat he blew up and/or fed to sharks during the first Barracuda arc. I can't imagine they were all in on the power company's scheme--didn't seem to matter to him at all, though. See I rolled with this: The dude who finds Frank tells him "we're all in on it at some point", and you figure that a party like that is gonna be the upper echelon and not Bob from Accounts Payable, and it's easy to assume that the people on that boat were in on it.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:37
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Tato posted:As much flack as the undead demon Punisher gets, I thought the previous volume by John Ostrander in which the Punisher grows a ponytail and joins the loving mafia was even worse. Are you talking about the first War Zone arc? Because I thought that was actually handled pretty well. Chuck Dixon writing over-the-top carnage and John Romita JR drawing Frank like a beat up boxer carrying around uzis and mac-10s that are bigger than his torso= something amazing. Did Bernie Wrightson draw just the covers of those demon-hunting Punisher issues, or did he just do covers? Also, another great Punisher mini is Daredevil/Punisher: Means To An End. David Lapham not breaking any new ground (oh poo poo, Frank shot an innocent! again! and some girl reminds him of his wife!) but the escalation of violence is handled pretty well and shows how out of control situations can get when neither side wants to give in. Also, I own these beauties.    
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