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Alhazred posted:Reminds me of Up Is Down And Black Is White where one of the mayor's advisors tries to call what Frank does as terrorism and gets shot down pretty quickly. I love that scene, too. It's just politicians arguing in a back room, but Ennis' scripted it so drat well. Fernandez also can draw a good conversation scene. "This is one of those times where I don't care what people put in their memoirs." RevBabyKiller posted:What's your reasoning on that one? Textbook definition of vigilante seems to apply more directly to The Punisher than serial killer does. I could even see arguing equivalency, but more serial killer than vigilante? How? The compulsion side? I would argue based on the compulsion side. Frank hates criminals and wants to punish them, but he truly loves his war. He lives for the hunt and the kill. His primary goal is not fighting crime; it's killing criminals. That's why he's the Punisher and not the Crime Stopper.
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Mar 8, 2011 19:29
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Alhazred posted:Reminds me of Up Is Down And Black Is White where one of the mayor's advisors tries to call what Frank does as terrorism and gets shot down pretty quickly.
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Mar 8, 2011 19:39
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Xenomrph posted:Like, Frank is explicitly killing the "bad guys", so in theory that should make everyone else feel more safe, which is kind of the opposite of terrorism. That's only due to extreme self control though. Again in Up Is Down And Black Is White he talks about how he has dreams about killing everyone. That doesn't seem like a guy you would feel safe knowing he walked around freely. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 8, 2011 |
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Mar 8, 2011 20:11
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Xenomrph posted:Yeah, I'd be hesitant to call Frank's actions "terrorism", since everyone knows that as long as you're being a decent human being and not breaking the law and being a gangster or something, you are totally safe from Frank's violent attention. Like, Frank is explicitly killing the "bad guys", so in theory that should make everyone else feel more safe, which is kind of the opposite of terrorism. redbackground fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 8, 2011 |
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Mar 8, 2011 21:11
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Alhazred posted:That's only due to extreme self control though. Again in Up Is Down And Black Is White he talks about how he has dreams about killing everyone. That doesn't seem like a guy you would feel safe knowing he walked around freely. redbackground posted:Assuming that as an average normal citizen, you inherently trust that this fellow New Yorker you only hear about on the news who has reportedly slaughtered hundreds (thousands?) of people will always and forever stick to this creed, and you totally trust that he 100% never makes a mistake and kills innocents, ever, even though there have been reports of his frequent use of high-end military weaponry including missles, rockets, grenades and other explosives. In fact, wasn't that one of the plot points in another MAX volume, with the police department recognizing that he never, ever hurts cops or civilians, but they try to set him up as having hurt some cops in order to spark public outrage? Like, they had to fake it in order to get the public and other cops to give a poo poo about taking the Punisher down, otherwise they were all sleeping pretty well at night knowing Frank Castle was out there blasting the bad guys.
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Mar 8, 2011 21:32
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Xenomrph posted:Like when he's first starting out it would be pretty reasonable to be afraid of him going berserk and shooting up a children's hospital or something, but in the MAX universe he's apparently been doing his one-man war on crime for like 30 years and he's still consistently killing the bad guys while leaving civilians and law enforcement alone. Without any knowledge of what's actually going on in his psyche, I don't think I'd be that concerned. "Reports are coming in that a large yacht has been blown up off the coast, and everyone on board, including the ship's crew and catering staff, has been subsequently ripped apart and eaten by sharks. But don't worry, we've been promised that none of the victims were pure of heart and deserved everything they got. Good enough for us! Now onto the weather..." redbackground fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 8, 2011 |
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Mar 8, 2011 21:58
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Here's a hosed up question: In Up is Down, Black is White, was Auntie Moe in fact Nicky's actual aunt?
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Mar 8, 2011 22:27
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E the Shaggy posted:Here's a hosed up question:
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Mar 8, 2011 22:28
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Xenomrph posted:Yeah, I'd be hesitant to call Frank's actions "terrorism", since everyone knows that as long as you're being a decent human being and not breaking the law and being a gangster or something, you are totally safe from Frank's violent attention. Like, Frank is explicitly killing the "bad guys", so in theory that should make everyone else feel more safe, which is kind of the opposite of terrorism. In first trade of MK Punisher after Welcome Back Frank, didn't Frank tell one of the copycat vigilantes that he accidentally killed a cleaner or something without even knowing, hence Frank was not a hypocrite to go after him? Really liked that book, lot of cool standalone and 2-part stories that did a good job of establishing things and really letting you see Frank from hi perspective, as maybe the only sane man around. Has there ever been a story about Frank killing an innocent by accident or believing he has done so? Also, is the exchange between Frank and Daredevil, where Castle tries to make DD shoot him in regular canon? And on a connected point, has Phil Hester ever drawn Punisher outside of a few pages of that Daredevil special where DD declares himself the new Kingpin?
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Mar 8, 2011 22:55
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redbackground posted:"Reports are coming in that a large yacht has been blown up off the coast, and everyone on board, including the ship's crew and catering staff, has been subsequently ripped apart and eaten by sharks. But don't worry, we've been promised that none of the victims were pure of heart and deserved everything they got. Good enough for us! Now onto the weather..." Sounds a bit like that Star Wars discussion in Clerks. Those caterers knew what they were getting into.
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Mar 8, 2011 23:10
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BizarroAzrael posted:Has there ever been a story about Frank killing an innocent by accident or believing he has done so? In Punisher Max some Mexican gangsters convinced him that he killed a little girl. He almost killed himself because that is what he does is punishes people but then had a dream about the bullet he shot her with and it wasn't the same ones he used so he went to check her body and it turned out she was dead before he ever got there anyways. Then he got really mad and killed all the gangsters.
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Mar 8, 2011 23:15
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ChairMaster posted:In Punisher Max some Mexican gangsters convinced him that he killed a little girl. He almost killed himself because that is what he does is punishes people but then had a dream about the bullet he shot her with and it wasn't the same ones he used so he went to check her body and it turned out she was dead before he ever got there anyways. In Punisher: Ghosts of Innocents, Castle chased one of Kingpin's drug goon onto a schoolbus that eventually got stuck on a train track and only had time to save himself. He then starts slowly going crazy seeing the kids around him to the point where he decides to go on a suicide run after the Kingpin. The first volume ends with Kingpin slipping away, cops surring Castle, and Castle finally snapping and in a fetal position. Not sure what happened after that, I only had the first volume.
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Mar 8, 2011 23:37
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Alhazred posted:That's only due to extreme self control though. Again in Up Is Down And Black Is White he talks about how he has dreams about killing everyone. That doesn't seem like a guy you would feel safe knowing he walked around freely. Even 616 Punisher doesn't really think he'd be able to stop killing if he ran out of bad guys, and he's probably saner than the Max version. Like he tells Moon Knight, "If it ever comes to that, I'll make sure I have one last bullet."
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Mar 8, 2011 23:40
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redbackground posted:I think that initial burst of violence would be pretty freaky. I'm thinking of that Arnold line from True Lies--"But they were all bad!" How long would it take for millions of people to realize and accept that?
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Mar 8, 2011 23:48
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Lurdiak posted:Even 616 Punisher doesn't really think he'd be able to stop killing if he ran out of bad guys, and he's probably saner than the Max version. Like he tells Moon Knight, "If it ever comes to that, I'll make sure I have one last bullet." At the same time, though, I don't think the Punisher is really all that worried about running out of "bad guys" to kill. I mean, if he runs out of mobsters, there are supervillains. If he runs out of those, I don't know, he'll steal some Reed Richard's tech, visit the Watcher and steal the Nullifier, then go after Galactus with it or something. But he's never going to run out of mobsters, so there is that.
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Mar 9, 2011 12:46
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Wade Wilson posted:I mean, if he runs out of mobsters, there are supervillains. If he runs out of those, I don't know, he'll steal some Reed Richard's tech, visit the Watcher and steal the Nullifier, then go after Galactus with it or something. I would read the poo poo out of this. The Cosmic Punisher sounds like a goofy rear end comic book.
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Mar 9, 2011 14:16
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Wade Wilson posted:At the same time, though, I don't think the Punisher is really all that worried about running out of "bad guys" to kill. Once he's done with the cosmic villains, he can always go after the sort-of-religious ones. He probably wouldn't mind taking a swing at Mephisto, the very incarnation of evil.
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Mar 9, 2011 14:36
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I actually would like to see a story where Steve Rogers just goes "Jesus, Frank's out of control" and goes in to take him down with the Secret Avengers' help.
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Mar 9, 2011 17:20
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I actually would like to see a story where Steve Rogers just goes "Jesus, Frank's out of control" and goes in to take him down with the Secret Avengers' help. He came close to doing that in Civil War.
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Mar 9, 2011 17:38
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In Ennis' run, he pushes the urban legend of the Punisher in the populace's mind. So anyone who encounters him fears him because they think he's come to kill them, like an angel of death. I kind of like that idea, actually, because it fits with the urban boogeyman he's become, and that people are so afraid of their own sins that they think they're worthy of being killed.
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Mar 9, 2011 17:42
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And even if he doesn't kill you you're still going to be hosed up. The social worker in the Slavers wasn't killed by the Punisher but she is pretty traumatized by the end of the story.
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Mar 9, 2011 21:19
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Was it Slavers or Black is White, Up is Down where Frank keeps throwing that woman at the pexiglass window? I remember that being a pretty powerful payoff moment.
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Mar 10, 2011 00:30
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BizarroAzrael posted:Was it Slavers or Black is White, Up is Down where Frank keeps throwing that woman at the pexiglass window? I remember that being a pretty powerful payoff moment. Pretty sure it was Slavers, since the woman was the one who ran the business side of the trade. And we finally got an end to Bullseye...and I feel disappointed. All that buildup to what makes Frank tick, and we aren't even let in on the secret. It feels like a cop out. On the plus side, I can't wait to see Frank in prison.
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Mar 10, 2011 00:34
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This image from the issue pretty much perfectly sums up the Punisher and Bullseye fight: While it was for the most part just an interesting and violent showdown I liked the issue overall, the sadistic nature of Bullseyes actions in particular were fitting given the amount of build up through out the arc. Reading the book from a monthly perspective I can see how the last two issues could seem anticlimactic due to the long delays but I think it will stand up as a complete arc. Hiding what Bullseye said was a pretty sterotypical tease but it's an interesting hook for what will presumably be a much slower arc as Frank attempts to heal. On the subject of those few words I can't imagine them being anything other than a variant of "I'm finally free".
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Mar 10, 2011 00:50
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Was there a last-page setup for the next arc/have we seen solicits yet? I'm just curious, I won't get the book till tomorrow.
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Mar 10, 2011 01:13
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Dickeye posted:Was there a last-page setup for the next arc/have we seen solicits yet? It does have a last page set-up for the next arc. I don't know if there have been solicits, but interviews with Aaron have stated what it was going to be. Edit: Spoilers for the next arc, because I'm not sure if you want to know or not Frank is in prison or being chased by the cops. Leper Residue fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Mar 10, 2011 |
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Mar 10, 2011 01:28
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Man do I ever want to know What Frank's last words to Maria were.
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Mar 10, 2011 05:05
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E the Shaggy posted:Man do I ever want to know What Frank's last words to Maria were. Like someone said, it's probably a variation on I'm finally free I mean, MAX as a whole and Aaron's in particular have been working around the idea that Frank wanted it to happen, because it gave him an excuse to cut loose. It's why I like the interpretation of Born that it wasn't some supernatural being offering him a deal, it was the little voice in his head that he had kept quiet for his whole life, that he knew he wouldn't be able to silence again if he let it out.
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Mar 10, 2011 16:04
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Wasn't there some Ennis issue where he has a nightmare about how "it was a rainy day, and we didn't go to the park"?
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Mar 10, 2011 18:50
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FoneBone posted:Wasn't there some Ennis issue where he has a nightmare about how "it was a rainy day, and we didn't go to the park"? It's not a nightmare, but yeah, the first issue of Long Cold Dark. They don't go to the park, and Frank gets old and out of shape and complacent, and everything is OK. His kids and grandkids visit on a regular basis, and he's the patriarch of a loving family. Then he wakes up.
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Mar 10, 2011 18:58
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Alhazred posted:Reminds me of Up Is Down And Black Is White where one of the mayor's advisors tries to call what Frank does as terrorism and gets shot down pretty quickly. Oh god, which comic was it where Frank's just gone on that insane rampage after his family's grave was dug up. The exchange in that was priceless, though I can't remember the exact words: "Thirteen deaths! We cannot have another night like this!" "Is there any good spin for it?" "Crime's down?  ""...  "
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Mar 10, 2011 22:08
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Up is down, black is white. Second issue of that arc.
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Mar 10, 2011 22:11
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Xenomrph posted:Pretty off-topic, but it always seemed weird to me that it was called the "Troubles". Like, troubles is getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar as a kid, or forgetting to study for a test. What was happening in Northern Ireland seemed to exceed that word by a fair margin. It's actually a combination of the Irish love of sarcasm and the British love of austerity.
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Mar 11, 2011 07:10
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Dickeye posted:It's not a nightmare, but yeah, the first issue of Long Cold Dark. They don't go to the park, and Frank gets old and out of shape and complacent, and everything is OK. His kids and grandkids visit on a regular basis, and he's the patriarch of a loving family. The only thing that was a nightmare about that issue was the art.
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Mar 12, 2011 03:25
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Was that the one from Fraction's run? Because Frank's midget arms will haunt me to my grave, I hate Chaykin.
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Mar 12, 2011 04:43
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Speaking of art, I wasn't too thrilled with Dillon's at the beginning of the Kingpin Arc, but he won me over with Bullseye's childlike innocence.
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Mar 12, 2011 05:14
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Gassire posted:Was that the one from Fraction's run? Because Frank's midget arms will haunt me to my grave, I hate Chaykin. No, that was Chaykin doing art for one issue of Ennis' book. Why? I don't know. Parlov did the rest of Long Cold Dark (something about his art sold that arc for me), but Chaykin did numero 50.
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Mar 12, 2011 05:16
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Chaykin's style works really well on horror stories. The last horror anthology thing Marvel did a while back had some of his art, if I remember right, and it worked there. It being off in the way it was added to the mood of the story. But it does not fit in gritty, realistic crime dramas/action books like Ennis' Punisher, and stands out like a sore thumb. I'm really, really happy he only did that issue, and not the full arc.
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Mar 12, 2011 05:19
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Dickeye posted:Parlov did the rest of Long Cold Dark (something about his art sold that arc for me), but Chaykin did numero 50. Not a big fan of Parlov's art. It's just to cartoony and less detailed compared to the art in the rest of the series:   To me Parlov's style doesn't really fit the tone of the comic.
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Mar 12, 2011 19:55
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Man, I can't disagree with you more. I'll readily admit I'm a big fan of the "sketchy, cartoonish, but gritty" style that Parlov employs (another good example is Jeff Lemire) so I'm pre-disposed to like his art. To me, it just fit the tone so well and Parlov is excellent with his layout and design. I never feel lost or confused by what's happening no matter how chaotic the scene gets. I really prefer his style to the more "realistic" style of Leandro Fernandez. When I think of the definitive look for The Punisher, I think of Parlov's art rather than Fernandez, or even Dillon, who at this point has drawn almost 40 issues of various Punisher over the last decade-plus. Of course, art preference is purely subjective, and I certainly wouldn't want to imply that Fernandez's art was bad, because it was awesome and fit the series really well. The only art I would consider objectively "bad" was Howard Chaykin's in issue 50.
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Mar 14, 2011 12:45
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