Middle East Wars : I/P Free Zone - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Wars : I/P Free Zone

Petey: Nov 25, 2005; I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes 9:11

Priapist posted:

I do think, however, that would help other governments de-legitimize their own protesters by pointing to Western intervention in Libya. Stop a massacre and possibly stunt the progress of other democratic uprisings, or watch a tyrant commit a bloodbath. lovely choice, it seems to me.

This is my feeling as well.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 20, 2013 18:59

Mr Plow: Dec 31, 2004

Priapist posted:

I do think, however, that would help other governments de-legitimize their own protesters by pointing to Western intervention in Libya. Stop a massacre and possibly stunt the progress of other democratic uprisings, or watch a tyrant commit a bloodbath. lovely choice, it seems to me.

It's worth asking whether showing dictators their actions have consequences and that they are being watched, might have the opposite effect and instead give protesters greater confidence.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:13

Petey: Nov 25, 2005; I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but the Patriots secondary happeneth to them all.

- Ecclesiastes 9:11

Mr Plow posted:

It's worth asking whether showing dictators their actions have consequences and that they are being watched, might have the opposite effect and instead give protesters greater confidence.

I don't think so. This is the protestors battle to win for themselves. A no-fly zone might be appropriate, as are sanctions; but direct military action has nothing good come of it.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:15

Daysleeper: May 6, 2007

Nuclear Spoon posted:

WARNING: REALLY loving GROSS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNm..._embedded#at=15

THAT WAS loving GROSS WASN'T IT?

I couldn't actually bring myself to watch after the first really gross thing.

I am so angry right now that someone can do this to so many people. So angry.

I saw a torso, a head and arms and virtually nothing else.

There is literally no punishment harsh enough for Ghaddaffi.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:16

GonadTheBallbarian: Jul 23, 2007; TFF's billionaire philanthropist of Gotham City, Mass.

Petey posted:

I don't think so. This is the protestors battle to win for themselves. A no-fly zone might be appropriate, as are sanctions; but direct military action has nothing good come of it.

I think you're pretty much dead-on, as lovely as the situation is. However, I wonder if regional powers would be better-received? Libya is flanked by Egypt and Tunisia to the west and east respectively. Could they be effective?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:18

sweeptheleg: Nov 25, 2007

Im usually pretty non-interventionist, but this stuff is hard to read.

quote:

A friend of mine just posted this on his Facebook

schadenfraud's friend posted:

Criminal 30 mins ago he sent his mercenaries to our town which is just 20 min east tripoli they killed anyone in streets they shot a women in the head because she was in her balcony please it�s literal massacre we don�t have nothing to defend please speak to the world today they want to burn Down tripoli .. Please we can�t talk to media .. I beg all ppl to stop this massacre this might my last update we are going to defend our women and children with our bare bodies. God bless Libyan ppl. Many are dying every second. May Allah have mercy on all of us.

I get not intervening in a country where the majority arent asking for help, but should there be a line somewhere? Gaddafi seems crazy enough to literally just kill everyone...

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:18

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009

What I'm concerned with is that even if the Libyan regular army decides to join the protestors side, the Colonel would still have his elite all-virgin bodyguard unit to protect him. They're extremely well trained and might turn any attempts at Gaddafi into a bloodshed. WHY IS AMERICAN MEDIA NOT DISCUSSING THIS???

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:20

Baconroll: Feb 6, 2009

For intervention one option would be to get the Egyptians to intervene. They are the regional power in North Africa and it would avoid the stigma of Western troops.

Also has the added benefit of being closer than most NATO assets.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:22

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003

Nenonen posted:

What I'm concerned with is that even if the Libyan regular army decides to join the protestors side, the Colonel would still have his elite all-virgin bodyguard unit to protect him. They're extremely well trained and might turn any attempts at Gaddafi into a bloodshed. WHY IS AMERICAN MEDIA NOT DISCUSSING THIS???

Does Gadaffi have any other Bond movie villain-like qualities I should know about? Does he have a secret fortress under a fake volcano crater or anything?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:27

Korendian Leader: Sep 7, 2003

Enjoying the spectacle?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:29

Uglycat: Dec 4, 2000

The American Medical Association has a bit of ethics policy based around the concept of paternalism based on a utilitarian approach. It's not by any means 'objective' (there's no such thing as objective morality), but I find it useful as a universally applied rule.

It is considered ethical for a doctor to employ paternalism (acting on a patient's behalf without their consent) if and only if the following three criteria are met:
1) Great harm will come if paternalism is not employed. You can't use paternalism for a 'greater good', only to avoid great harm.
2) The patient is irreversibly ignorant (comatose, clinically insane, mentally handicapped, a child, etc.
3) It must be reasonable to assume that, at a later time, if no longer 'irreversibly ignorant', the patient would ratify your decision to intervene.

I find this 'rule of thumb' has many applications, from deciding when it's 'acceptable' to break a promise to international intervention. Substitute 'sovereignty' for 'autonomy', and regard the population as a whole (with their government as an expression of the will of the people) to be the 'person', with analogies to insanity etc.

I believe intervention here can be justified on ethical grounds (and it could not have been in Tunisia or Egypt). Whether a response that produces a positive outcome (that outweigh negative consequences) is possible is another question entirely.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:29

Pipski: Apr 18, 2004; I become
LONDON MALE!
My active force is
POWERDON!

_{...cleansiness...}

Nuclear Spoon posted:

WARNING: REALLY loving GROSS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFNm..._embedded#at=15

THAT WAS loving GROSS WASN'T IT?

I couldn't actually bring myself to watch after the first really gross thing.

I am so angry right now that someone can do this to so many people. So angry.

Jesus loving wept. Youtube just took it down though.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:31

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

While BBC World Service currently sounds like an autotuned song, the guy on the phone is really passionate and I think he's breaking down.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:36

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

BBC has a tripoli Libyan on the line. The connection is awful, but the bits you can hear sound atrocious.
"Thousands... people in the street" as he cries.
"Help"

This is so horrible.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:36

Intel5: Dec 30, 2006; Svelte

I would really approve of my tax dollars being used to enforce a no fly zone over Libya right now. We could have it fully in place by this time tomorrow.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:36

Kane: Aug 20, 2000; Do you see the problem?

Conscious of pain, you're distracted by pain.
You're fixated on it. Obsessed by one threat, you miss the other.

So much more aware, so much less perceptive. An automaton could do better.

Are you in there?

Are you listening? Can you see?

What are the chances of anyone actually intervening at this point?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Even Libya's own representatives at the UN are turning on Gaddafi

quote:

Signs that the Gaddafi regime is being abandoned by key officials are growing. They include Libya's entire delegation at the United Nations. The Associated Press news agency reported:

quote:
Libya's ambassadors at the United Nations are calling for leader Muammar Gaddafi to step down as the country's ruler.

Deputy Ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi said Monday that if Gaddafi does not relinquish power, "the Libyan people will get rid of him."

Dabbashi urged the international community to impose a no-fly zone over Libya to prevent mercenaries, weapons and other supplies from reaching Gaddafi and his security forces.
Dabbashi also said he was not resigning.

The diplomat says the Libyan delegation is also urging the International Criminal Court to investigate possible crimes against humanity committed against the Libyan people during the current protests.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:38

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

Sivias posted:

BBC has a tripoli Libyan on the line. The connection is awful, but the bits you can hear sound atrocious.
"Thousands... people in the street" as he cries.
"Help"

This is so horrible.

Any translations of what the BBC man said? He interspersed speaking Aranbic, sounds like he was trying to calm the caller down.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:38

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Kane posted:

What are the chances of anyone actually intervening at this point?

We could probably cook up a medium-strong UNSC condemnation if you give us a week or two and put in a good word with China

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:39

Darth123123: Jan 26, 2006; I AM A TIME TRAVELER FROM THE PAST AND THINK THERE IS STILL A MEGARULE IN PYF. PLEASE IGNORE MY REPORTS.

Libya has WMD right?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:39

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Darth123123 posted:

Libya has WMD right?

No, they gave them up to stop being international pariahs

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:40

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The two pilots who landed in Malta are colonels and are currently spilling their guts about the activities of the army, and that's being passed onto the EU.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:41

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Brown Moses posted:

The two pilots who landed in Malta are colonels and are currently spilling their guts about the activities of the army, and that's being passed onto the EU.

I hope something comes of this. And soon.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:41

Young Freud: Nov 25, 2006; My old avatar sucked anyway.

Darth123123 posted:

Libya has WMD right?

They gave them up decades ago, and it was just chemical weapons, no nukes or biologicals.

If he still had them, he'd be recreating Halabja in Benghazi and Tripoli right now.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:41

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

These are apparently pictures of the mercenaries entering the city

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:41

GnatKingCoal: Dec 17, 2008; You, Sir, are UNAmerican!

Slave posted:

No, they gave them up to stop being international pariahs

I don't think you GET IT, MISTER.

Let's try again.

"Libya HAS WMDs, RIGHT?!?!"

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:42

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

GnatKingCoal posted:

I don't think you GET IT, MISTER.

Let's try again.

"Libya HAS WMDs, RIGHT?!?!"

Oh poo poo sorry I think I just saw some, lets get'em boys

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:43

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

quote:

Despite others suggesting earlier that William Hague was off the mark in claiming that Muammar Gaddafi had fled to Venezuela, Libyan state television is now reporting that this is actually the case.

It was attributed to the Libyan deputy foreign minister.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:44

Hob_Gadling: Jul 6, 2007; One of our barley fields has begun to whisper forbidden secrets during the night.

How has Israel reacted to the Libyan situation?

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:46

Pillowpants: Aug 5, 2006

This would be a good opportunity for the US to fix its standing in the world, if we could just go in and wipe out the regime and then leave (and Let the UN oversee elections)

However, I doubt that will happen because people here would hate it.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:46

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A phone call posted on the AJE blog claims that the soldiers are just shooting anyone they see, and specifically targetting doctors.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:48

Darth123123: Jan 26, 2006; I AM A TIME TRAVELER FROM THE PAST AND THINK THERE IS STILL A MEGARULE IN PYF. PLEASE IGNORE MY REPORTS.

GnatKingCoal posted:

I don't think you GET IT, MISTER.

Let's try again.

"Libya HAS WMDs, RIGHT?!?!"

See it took that long for this to be posted. I need to include more emoticons.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:48

ChaosSamusX: Jul 18, 2010

Is there anyone I can email on the national (Canadian) or international level to do something about this? Hell it doesn't even need to be a body that I'm a part of, I just want to do something - anything - that can help.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:48

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

I think I can hear a little kvetching from the reporter on the BBC right now, talking about how the world is silent to the calls for help from Libyans.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:48

Darth123123: Jan 26, 2006; I AM A TIME TRAVELER FROM THE PAST AND THINK THERE IS STILL A MEGARULE IN PYF. PLEASE IGNORE MY REPORTS.

Pillowpants posted:

This would be a good opportunity for the US to fix its standing in the world, if we could just go in and wipe out the regime and then leave (and Let the UN oversee elections)

However, I doubt that will happen because people here would hate it.

Really?! You think the world (including China, Russia, and other ME nations) would view our intervention positively? Irrespective of how quickly we left. Not a chance.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:49

GnatKingCoal: Dec 17, 2008; You, Sir, are UNAmerican!

^^ Yeah, they really stopped us there in Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Grenada, Cuba... ^^^

Darth123123 posted:

See it took that long for this to be posted. I need to include more emoticons.

Pretty soon this "peace train" poo poo is gonna be OVER, son.

Time for you to get on the Winning Team and Fight The Good Fight.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:50

Intel5: Dec 30, 2006; Svelte

I'm just ranting here, but we spend billions on the latest and greatest military toys, and now we have a veritable carte blanche of international opinion to use them to save lives, and our president is standing around holding his dick. We could have air superiority over Libya within hours, it may do fuckall for stuff that's happening on the ground, but they wouldn't be able to drop bombs on their own people anymore.

EDIT:

Darth123123 posted:

Really?! You think the world (including China, Russia, and other ME nations) would view our intervention positively? Irrespective of how quickly we left. Not a chance.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/t..._for_peace.html

Intel5 fucked around with this message at Feb 21, 2011 around 18:55

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:51

Shagga: May 21, 2004; Oy, dey.

Darth123123 posted:

Really?! You think the world (including China, Russia, and other ME nations) would view our intervention positively? Irrespective of how quickly we left. Not a chance.

I was quite young during the First Gulf War but I do not recall any significant backlash against the US for the liberation of Kuwait. Certainly not on the scale of GWB's subsequent adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan for certain.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:53

GnatKingCoal: Dec 17, 2008; You, Sir, are UNAmerican!

Intel5 posted:

I'm just ranting here, but we spend billions on the latest and greatest military toys, and now we have a veritable carte blanche of international opinion to use them to save lives, and our president is standing around holding his dick. We could have air superiority over Libya within hours, it may do fuckall for stuff that's happening on the ground, but they wouldn't be able to drop bombs on their own people anymore.

"Muamar, don't take this the wrong way. We've been sorta friends kinda for a while now, and we're watching the way you're responding to this and... well, we felt it necessary to intervene. We're afraid you're gonna really hurt someone. We're afraid you'll hurt YOURSELF..."

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:53

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 20, 2013 18:59

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Darth123123 posted:

Really?! You think the world (including China, Russia, and other ME nations) would view our intervention positively? Irrespective of how quickly we left. Not a chance.

Gaddafi is commiting genocide, though. This would be more akin to the NATO intervention in Bosnia, than some gently caress up like Iraq or Afghanistan.

# ? Feb 21, 2011 18:53

«‹›987 »

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Wars : I/P Free Zone