- ArchRanger
- Mar 19, 2007
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I'm tired of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with 'em there.
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I'm really not trying to excuse their gently caress ups, managed to miss that one. I'd also like to see any of the rebels caught doing horrible poo poo tried for it, though I think there's virtually no chance of that happening.
quote:
Back to the killing them for their own good argument.
Maintaining that this is bullshit, however. How would you resolve it? Turn Sirte into an independent country? An indefinite siege? Any other option is going to end with more people dead and suffering overall. You've mentioned lifting all support from the rebels, but that'd only make this draw out longer and, again, end with more bloodshed.
ArchRanger fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2011 around 18:38
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Oct 3, 2011 18:35
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- ArchRanger
- Mar 19, 2007
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I'm tired of following my dreams, I'm just gonna ask where they're goin' and meet up with 'em there.
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Edit: Double post
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Oct 3, 2011 18:37
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- Leperflesh
- May 17, 2007
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Dwarf tits for the blood god!
SPERG FOR THE SPERG GOD
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If holding civilian populations hostage was a "get out of war free" card, you'd quickly see every human conflict on Earth devolve into a contest over who can hold the most civilians hostage.
We could wish for rebel forces with much better discipline, but we haven't got them. We could wish for Ghaddafi's forces to see the inevitability of their defeat and surrender, but they haven't. We could wish for NATO to only ever hit their intended targets and never ever hit civilians, but that's technologically impossible.
Choosing to cease fire and leave Ghaddafi's best and most professional armed forces sit free in a city indefinitely while they (by many reports) subjugate and cull the local population and actively prevent them from leaving is untenable. It'd be unconscionable as well. And it'd totally undermine the authority and legitimacy of any new government, to have the former government at large and armed within the national border.
There are no good choices here. The least bad choice is for the rebels, with NATO support, to take the city as swiftly as they can - which is obviously not that swiftly, given the lack of organization and discipline.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:43
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- Fangz
- Jul 5, 2007
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHnMDGIbFkc
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Well, just sitting there outside Sirte means everyone inside starves to death - probably the civilians first. Re-enacting Leningrad is hardly the more humane option.
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Oct 3, 2011 18:54
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- Golbez
- Oct 9, 2002
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SHATNER SECRETS
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Fangz posted:
Well, just sitting there outside Sirte means everyone inside starves to death - probably the civilians first. Re-enacting Leningrad is hardly the more humane option.
It wasn't the Soviets shooting people trying to leave Stalingrad, was it?
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Oct 3, 2011 19:02
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- Ace Oliveira
- Dec 27, 2009
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"I wonder if there is beer on the sun."
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Golbez posted:
It wasn't the Soviets shooting people trying to leave Stalingrad, was it?
Well, Stalin certainly didn't let all of them them leave, that's for sure.
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Oct 3, 2011 19:07
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Leperflesh posted:
There are no good choices here. The least bad choice is for the rebels, with NATO support, to take the city as swiftly as they can - which is obviously not that swiftly, given the lack of organization and discipline.
That's pretty much my feelings on the situation, there's no good options left, just the least lovely ones. At least more medical supplies reached Sirte today
quote:"Oxygen has to be available to perform surgery on war-wounded patients in good conditions," said Hichem Khadraoui, the ICRC delegate in charge of the operation. "Oxygen was desperately needed in the hospital. It can save lives."
ICRC staff crossed the front line with a fully loaded truck from the west side of Sirte. Fifty oxygen cylinders and other items required for hospital care were handed over to medical staff and representatives of civil society. A Dutch nurse who had been working in the hospital was evacuated in an ICRC vehicle.
"The situation on the ground was very tense with ongoing fighting," said Mr Khadraoui. "Under such conditions, we had to limit ourselves – after obtaining clearances from all the parties concerned – to bringing in the most urgently needed humanitarian aid without further assessing needs. We hope to return soon."
quote:Libya's new rulers will set in motion the process of democratic elections once Muammar Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte is captured, instead of waiting until the whole country is under their control, the caretaker prime minister said on Monday.
The statement represented a shift from the previous position, which was that the plan for elections would not go into effect until Libya was "liberated" -- meaning that all pro-Gaddafi resistance was stamped out.
Some of the Libyan government's Western backers had expressed concerns that this timetable could leave the country in a political limbo for an extended period, exposing it to infighting and instability.
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Oct 3, 2011 20:36
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Couple of interesting tweets to begin with
Jenan Moussa
quote:Acc to #libya(n) journalist Munir Al Go'oud, unkown attackers tried to kill head of #tripoli military council #belhaj hrs ago in #tripoli.
Abigail Hauslohner
quote:#Misrata's top military commander tells me Muatassim may have left #Sirte. Armored cars seen in Jufra, heading south a few days ago
AJE Video - Jibril vows to quit after Libya 'liberation'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWZ5Pewe7EI
Reuters - Humanitarian fears grow over Libya Sirte battle
quote:Libyan interim government forces have captured a district in Sirte after fierce battles that further raised concern about the dire humanitarian situation in Muammar Gaddafi's besieged hometown.
Government forces who had for weeks been pinned down by artillery and rocket fire on the eastern edges of Sirte were able to advance several km (miles) into the city, capturing the southern district of Bouhadi.
A Red Cross convoy delivered oxygen and other urgently needed medical supplies to the Ibn Sina hospital Monday after an earlier attempt was aborted because of heavy fighting.
McClatchy DC - Family tells of terror from armed Gadhafi loyalists in Sirte
quote:Militiamen loyal to Moammar Gadhafi swarm the streets of Sirte, brandishing rocket-propelled grenade launchers and passing out heavy weapons, including belt-fed machine guns, to anyone who's willing to fight. The electricity's been cut off since August, and those with generators are suspected of listening to news from the outside, marking them as disloyal.
Fed a nonstop stream of pro-Gadhafi propaganda, the loyalists are willing to die, rather than surrender, because they think that they'll have no place in the new Libya. Random fire from both sides is taking a toll on a civilian population caught in the middle.
That's the stark portrait of life in Gadhafi's most-favored city that emerges from hours of interviews with members of the Tarhouni family, who are among the estimated 10,000 civilians who've fled Sirte.
Reuters - Chilly welcome for freedom fighters in Gaddafi's town
quote:If the Libyan fighters who advanced deep into Sirte on Monday had hoped to be greeted as liberating heroes, they were disappointed. All the residents had fled, leaving behind prized mementoes of their kinsman Muammar Gaddafi.
Forces with Libya's new rulers, the National Transitional Council, captured the Sirte district of Bouhadi, a stronghold of Gaddafi's tribe where many residents reject the revolution that overthrew his 42-year-rule.
AP - UK firm buys control of Libyan oil field company
quote:British company Heritage Oil PLC has acquired a controlling interest in a Libyan company licensed to provide oil field services including offshore and land-based drilling.
Heritage said Tuesday that it paid $19.5 million for a 51 percent stake in Sahara Oil Services Holdings Ltd. Heritage said the acquisition will allow it to play a significant role in Libya's oil and gas industry.
AFP - American fighting Kadhafi 'lunatics' dreams of free Libya
quote:Since escaping Libya's notorious Abu Salim prison in August, American Matthew VanDyke has either been fighting "lunatics" loyal to Moamer Kadhafi or giving battlefield tours to foreign journalists.
The Baltimore, Maryland, native said he joined the uprising against Kadhafi to free Libya of the privations of the mercurial strongman's 42-year rule and open it up to the pleasures of the American way of life.
"Nobody needs to die. Even Kadhafi lunatics need to enjoy McDonalds and all the other good things that are going to come once Libya is free," said VanDyke.
And finally the final final assault on Sirte
Which probably explains why I've seen a couple of journalists saying they are heading to Sirte today.
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Oct 4, 2011 07:34
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- Jut
- May 15, 2005
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Great Leader shall defeat all the untrained and pathetic rebel infidels! See how he rolls his eyes at their impudence! With his might as a prophet of God, we shall let the desert stain red with the blood of these lowly dogs! For every one of us killed by NATO, we shall kill 100 with our sleepers!
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Brown Moses posted:
British company Heritage Oil PLC has acquired a controlling interest in a Libyan company licensed to provide oil field services including offshore and land-based drilling.
Heritage said Tuesday that it paid $19.5 million for a 51 percent stake in Sahara Oil Services Holdings Ltd. Heritage said the acquisition will allow it to play a significant role in Libya's oil and gas industry.
That's dirt cheap for what will eventually be a huge gold mine.
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Oct 4, 2011 07:38
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Jpost.com has an article about David Gerbi's attempts to reopen the Tripoli synagogue that's worth a read, Libyan Jews divided over bid to restore Tripoli temple
A couple of key excerpts
quote:“This is not a one-man show,” said Raphael Luzon, a Libyan Jew living in the UK who had negotiated with longtime Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi and is involved in talks with the National Transitional Council (NTC).
“You have to be part of a framework, part of an organization. I have received many calls from [Libyan Jews in] Rome because he is not talking about the community but about himself as a new messiah. We have to move very carefully.”
In Rome, a leader of the local Libyan Jewish community, the second largest after Israel, was also critical of Gerbi’s tactics.
“I personally believe that such personal initiatives, without any coordination with the Jewish community, is not in its interests,” said Elio Raccah over the phone. “We believe such talks should be done on a collective basis. The rebuilding of a synagogue by itself is an isolated concession because what we want is restitution of our rights and certainly not of a single building.”
But Meir Kahlon, the head of the Israeli-based World Organization of Libyan Jewry, rejected those arguments, saying Gerbi acted responsibly and with authority.
“I sent Gerbi,” said Kahlon. “We speak for all the Libyan Jews in Israel and many outside the country. I don’t need permission from the Libyan Jews in Italy or the UK.”
Kahlon defended Gerbi, saying he did not plan to renovate the building, only to clean it from debris so that Jews could pray there. “The problem is that everybody thinks they can do better,” he added.
I also found this article from a few months ago about Gerbi, I'll put shuls back in Libya (with a little rebel help), which details his earlier efforts, including meetings with Gaddafi.
This video claims to be fighting inside of Sirte, via Al Jazeera Arabic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7_TcSU4Xs0
Some of the fighting is taking place around this location, just northeast of the main urban area.
Arab News has an interesting piece about the smaller stories that are yet to be told in Libya, New Libya springs a surprise everywhere you go
Mohamed Fadel Fahmy tweets
quote:Youth of Feb 17, are holding a sit-in/protest at 5pm in Martyrs Square, Tripoli against the " return of the Jews to Libya "
Bit more Heritage Oil news as well
quote:Libya denies knowledge of Heritage Oil acquisition of Benghazi services company
The head of Libya's National Oil Company has denounced UK oil firm Heritage Oil over its announcement this morning that it had ‘acquired’ 51% in a Benghazi-based oil services firm.
NOC chairman Nuri Berruien said that he “has not” been approached by Heritage Oil over the acquisition of the controlling interest on Sahara Oil Services (SOSH) which holds long term permits and licenses to provide oil field services in Libya, for US$19.5 million in cash.
Speaking to Dow Jones Newswires, Nuri Berruien said that any accord for the transfer of licenses to Heritage would be "null and void" as such a move first requires NOC approval.
It wasn't clear if Berruien was exclusively referring to licenses to explore and produce oil and gas, or for all licenses to operate in Libya.
A Heritage spokesman stressed that the deal with Sahara was for the provision of oil field services, not exploration and production licenses, which he said Heritage would still have to bid for.
There's also reports that a major attack on Sirte is about to begin, so I'll keep an eye out for more news.
Brown Moses fucked around with this message at Oct 4, 2011 around 11:34
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Oct 4, 2011 11:29
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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[edit]Bugger, wrong thread
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Oct 4, 2011 11:46
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- OwlBot 2000
- Jun 1, 2009
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Why shouldn't the U.K. and France get some oil and money out of this? After all, they carried out airstrikes, gathered intelligence, and even sent in special forces to help coordinate attacks. Since they did all the hard work, it'd be more than a little unfair to ask them to walk away without some kind of reward.
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Oct 4, 2011 11:48
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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I think the question is whether or not they get it on fair terms with the NTC, although some people would see any involvement by NATO countries in their oil industry as proof that it was all about the oil.
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Oct 4, 2011 11:50
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Sometimes, when I need a bit of a laugh, I like to see the latest posts on Mathaba.net, it's like Gaddafi fan fiction:
quote:Update on the war against Libya and Africa - October 1st and 3rd, 2011
The Libyan "rebels" (wrongly called "revolutionaries" by foreign hostile media networks, in an attempt to confuse people, since there is only one revolution in Libya, that of the 1st September Revolution and the revolutionary movement led my Muammar Qaddafi after relinquishing power in 1979 two years after the maturing of the self-governing Jamahiriya on 2nd March 1977) are not united.
The "rebels" aka "tebels (terrorist rebels)", "rats" (due to their horrific abuses and torture of civilians including cutting off of women's breasts, cutting out of the hearts of those who said "I surrender due to your gun, but my heart is with Muammar Qaddafi" and other unspeakable "behaviour" which could not be termed human by any stretch of the imagination), are a disparate group of criminals united only by their hatred of Muammar Qaddafi, direct democracy, natural socialism, truth and justice.
They include "royalists" which wish to bring back a reactionary "royal" dictatorship, islamist heretics who wrongly believe that Islam is dictatorship and oppression, and not consultation (shura) and justice, a few who support 'liberal multi party indirect dictatorship under the power of private central bankers', former corrupt officials who were under investigation for embezzlement, hired mercenaries (mostly foreign from other Arab countries), European and American "special forces" and other foreign mercenaries.
After the death of their leaders by Libyan Jamahiriya forces at Sirte and Bani Walid, they have no commanders who give orders for operations in those areas. Even before this, they had severe splits in recent months whereby commanders killed each other, and divided along tribal lines, and mistrust, due to the varied motivations and priorities of the "rebel" forces.
The Libyan people are resolutely against foreign intervention and occupation, and are alert to indirect dictatorship of bankrupt alien foreign nations via the TNC.
Tebels! It goes on at length to describe the situation in different areas:
quote:Tripoli
Sunday, 02 OCT 2011
Many volunteers have gone to Tripoli to fight.
80% of Tripoli is now under the green jamahiri banner of the Jamahiriya (self-governing society of the masses).
Fighting continued in Tajura, Suq al-Jum'ih, Abu Salim, Bab al-Aziz and Sidi-Khalifa, areas of Tripoli against occupation forces.
quote:Sabha
Sunday, 02 OCT 2011
New reports from Southern Libya reveal that at least 15,000 Tuareg fighters have entered Sabha to defend Libya against NATO war. At least 3,000 Tuareg fighters are already present in Ghadames, the city has been liberated which has allowed Western supply routes to reopen - from Tunisia to Libya and from Algeria to Libya.
quote:Benghazi
Friday, 30 SEP 2011
Many developments. Mustafa Abdel Jalil has not been seen and appears to have departed from Benghazi. He will not escape justice, not only for existing crimes of corruption prior to the conspiracy war but for high treason.
As much as 50% of Benghazi is now closed to the rebels who have lost support.
Saturday, 01 OCT 2011
50% of the city is now under the green flag. There are no rebels or TNC officers seen in many areas of Benghazi.
quote:Ras Lanuf
Sunday, 02 OCT 2011
Paratrooper Division (USA), knocked down in Ras Lanuf
82nd Paratrooper Division (USA), from North Carolina, has been knocked down by Jamahiriya fighters using SAM-7 missiles, during an attempt to land. The 82nd Division had participated in combat operations in Afghanistan. The Libyan resistance is now fighting alongside the Afghan, Iraqi and Serb resistance.
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Oct 4, 2011 12:06
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Another update From Sirte
quote:Sirte civilians fear new regime but bombings more
Civilians pouring out of Moamer Kadhafi's hometown Sirte on Tuesday said the horror of the battle for the city finally forced them to conquer their fear of the besieging new regime forces and leave.
Streams of vehicles crammed with families and piled high with their possessions queued at the succession of checkpoints on the coastal highway out of Sirte to have their belongings searched and their identities checked by suspicious National Transitional Council troops.
NTC fighters manning the checkpoints made no secret of their disdain for the residents of a city which was so privileged under the ousted regime and where loyalty to the Kadhafis ran deep.
Farak Mussa, whose blue minivan was carrying his family of eight jammed in beside mattresses and suitcases, said he had held out for days for fear of the NTC fighters but the intensity of the clashes had finally forced him to take a chance.
"We were afraid to come out because they (Kadhafi loyalists) told us that the NTC would cut our throats.
"But we couldn't stay because of the bombing -- we had to take the risk. Why is NATO bombing us?" he asked.
The alliance said it carried out no strikes in Sirte on Monday although its warplanes did strike two targets around the city the previous day.
And fierce fighting erupted on the front line on the western side of Sirte on Monday after what NTC forces said was a rocket and rocket-propelled grenade barrage against their positions by Kadhafi forces inside the city.
Salem Hamees, who was leaving with his extended family, said: "Our house was hit by a bomb. It destroyed three rooms. We were lucky we were in the other rooms.
"We don't know where it came from. The NATO bombing is scary. It is all scary. There is no difference between their bombs."
Both men said their vehicles had been repeatedly stopped and searched by NTC troops as they travelled out of the city with their families.
"We have been stopped at five checkpoints and searched every time," said Mussa.
But NTC fighter Mohammed Shahomi had little sympathy for the long line of frightened families waiting to undergo another inspection.
"They are all Kadhafi loyalists," he said, gesturing at the queue of crammed vehicles.
"But when NATO dropped bombs near them, they left -- they know it's serious now.
"You think they are leaving because they believe in the revolution? They are just scared."
The fleeing civilians all spoke of an increasingly desperate situation inside the city as their food supplies ran out.
An International Committee of the Red Cross team managed to deliver some desperately needed medical supplies into Sirte on Monday despite the fighting.
But the persistent exchanges prevented it from carrying out a more detailed assessment of the needs, the ICRC said.
"ICRC staff crossed the front line with a fully loaded truck from the west side of Sirte," the statement said.
"Fifty oxygen cylinders and other items required for hospital care were handed over to medical staff and representatives of civil society."
A Dutch nurse who had been working in the city's Ibn Sina hospital was also evacuated.
Team leader Hichem Khadraoui said: "The situation on the ground was very tense with ongoing fighting.
"Under such conditions, we had to limit ourselves -- after obtaining clearances from all the parties concerned -- to bringing in the most urgently needed humanitarian aid without further assessing needs. We hope to return soon."
Khadraoui had led a previous mission into Sirte on Saturday during which the hospital came under rocket fire when NTC fighters surrounded Kadhafi forces in a nearby showpiece conference centre.
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Oct 4, 2011 13:16
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- Mr. Sunshine
- May 15, 2008
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Can anybody find me somebody to love rape and torture?
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Mathaba.net posted:
 Tebels!
My god, it's like someone intentionally set out to make a parody of Gaddafi propaganda.
Also:
Mathaba.net posted:
Serb resistance
Is there even such a thing these days?
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Oct 4, 2011 13:36
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- Amused to Death
- Aug 10, 2009
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google "The Night Witches", and prepare for 
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That must've been one hell of a plane considering a division is about 15,000 people. Apparently the Spruce Goose is back.
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Oct 4, 2011 14:28
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- Zeroisanumber
- Oct 23, 2010
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Never mind that, tell me more about this magic plane that you can stuff the whole 82nd Airborne into!
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Oct 4, 2011 14:56
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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The site is full of bullshit, this article, NATO using chemical weapons in Bani Walid, has an unpleasant image of what claims to be a victim of mustard gas used in Bani Walid, but in fact the picture has appeared on multiple articles for the last 6 years, including this one from 2005.
Bit more news
Reuters Video - Families flee Sirte violence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbXq9BIwWko
A story from about a month ago about the Jewish guy trying to reopen the temple in Tripoli, Amazigh rebels embrace representative of Libyan Jews.
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Oct 4, 2011 15:13
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- Al-Saqr
- Nov 11, 2007
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Sheikh of the Couch
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Big news coming out of Saudi Arabia:
AFP REPORTS posted:
14 hurt in rioting in Saudi Shiite-majority village: SPA
(AFP) – 43 minutes ago
RIYADH — Fourteen people, including 11 policemen, were hurt when riots erupted in a Shiite-majority village in eastern Saudi Arabia, state news agency SPA said Tuesday, blaming the unrest on a "foreign country."
"A group of outlaws and rioters on motorbikes gathered" at a roundabout in the village of Al-Awamia in Al-Qatif province on Monday "carrying petrol bombs," SPA said, citing the Sunni-ruled kingdom's interior ministry.
The group carried out acts causing "insecurity with incitement from a foreign country that aims to undermine the nation's security and stability," SPA quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.
"Security forces managed to deal with those traitors at the spot and after they were dispersed, machinegun fire erupted from a nearby neighbourhood."
It said nine policemen were wounded in the gunfire and two hurt by petrol bombs.
Three civilians were also wounded, it said.
Saudi Arabia described the unrest as a "blatant interference in its sovereignty."
"Those must clearly state whether their loyalty is to God then to their country, or to this country and its (religious) authority," it added, apparently referring to Shiite-ruled Iran.
A Shiite Saudi activist contacted by AFP said that tension grew in the village on Monday after police arrested two men, both in their 70s, in a bid to force their wanted sons, accused of taking part in Shiite-led protests, to surrender.
The health of one of the two men, Hassan al-Zayed, deteriorated in detention and they were later freed, said the activist, who requested anonymity.
A rights activist and writer, Hassan al-Manasef, who went to the police station to inquire about the two men was himself arrested, he added.
A fourth man, Hussein Hathiya, was also arrested when he came to inquire about Manasef, said the same activist.
Saudi police arrested between 20 and 30 Shiites, including two bloggers, for allegedly taking part in protests in oil-rich Eastern Province, activists and an internet websites said in April.
The arrests were made in Al-Qatif and nearby areas which witnessed demonstrations urging the release of prisoners and voicing solidarity with Bahraini Shiites.
Of course, due to the absence of a free press over here, we'll never know what's going on outside the narrative set forth by the government, so I'm not going to make judgments. but it's particularly lovely when not one hour passed from the riot happening and allready it's being blamed on Iran, and is indicative of the failure to understand or look into the root causes of the problems occurring. citizens who rioted, hurt people (rightly or wrongly) and caused damage should be punished according to the law, but going so far as to call them traitors against their god and country does not bode well for the future when more troubles commence due to the lack of tackling the fundamental issues at hand. but then again it's sadly expected.
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Oct 4, 2011 17:59
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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Al-Saqr posted:
Big news coming out of Saudi Arabia:
Of course, due to the absence of a free press over here, we'll never know what's going on outside the narrative set forth by the government, so I'm not going to make judgments. but it's particularly lovely when not one hour passed from the riot happening and allready it's being blamed on Iran, and is indicative of the failure to understand or look into the root causes of the problems occurring. citizens who rioted, hurt people (rightly or wrongly) and caused damage should be punished according to the law, but going so far as to call them traitors against their god and country does not bode well for the future when more troubles commence due to the lack of tackling the fundamental issues at hand. but then again it's sadly expected.
Absolutely agreed that the Sauds reflexively blame tensions on sectarianism, as they have in the past and did in Bahrain. Unfortunately I also have not seen any indication that the states narrative on these events will not be tacitly accepted both within and without. It does not help that the Iranian regime usually seems willing to cooperate with that narrative since it feeds into their own.
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Oct 4, 2011 18:14
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- Alan Smithee
- Jan 3, 2005
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From the greatest bedroom filmmaker of our times, director of "Wigga Please", "Feminazis II: Space Master Race", comes "Video Game: The Movie: The Game: The Movie". Directed by Alan Smithee. Written by Alan Smithee. Starring Alan Smithee. Produced by Skoolmunkee
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Man that is some Baghdad Bob poo poo. Borderline North Korean, just without the sensationalist headlines.
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Oct 4, 2011 19:53
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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The Gaddafi regime yet again shows it's a real class act:
Gaddafi forces turn Sirte into military nerve centre
quote:Doctors fleeing the area said they had seen arms depots inside the complex and that “rocket launchers and mortar detonators ring the hospital”.
Inside the built-up area of downtown Sirte, Ibn Sina hospital has become the nerve centre of the pro-Gaddafi operation. “There is a military operations room below the maternity ward of hospital,” said Osama Muttawa Swehli, one of the rebels.
“This has been a tactic of the regime to base themselves in hospitals where they know Nato will not attack”.
Two doctors from India and Bangladesh who escaped the hospital described the dire conditions.
“The hospital is full of military men and casualties. There are more than 200 patients and less than 15 doctors. There is no proper treatment, and a real lack of food. Blood streaks the corridors and we don’t have enough water to clean it,” said the doctors, who did not wish to be named for fear of recriminations. “The death rate is very high”.
They added: “The families of hospital workers are inside, babies, young girls. There are up to 50 people inside. The rebels must help; their lives are in their hands.”
BBC Video - Anti-Gaddafi forces claim to find another of Gaddafi's homes
quote:National Transitional Council fighters have entered a house they claim belongs to the former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's birth village of Abu Hadi.
The home has the trademark bedouin tent in which Gadaffi traditionally liked to receive guests.
British national Anas Ramadan, who was filmed inside the house, came across a coffee set and said he would auction it to raise money for Libya.
Abigail Hauslohner of Time
quote:Many ppl in a bad condition leaving #Sirte today
Saw a guy arrive at field clinic w his 4 yr old daughter who had 2day-old bullet wound in her leg. Dad had tried to remove it himself
Also saw #Misrata fighters using abandoned Tawergha homes for their heavy weapons target practice.
Zeina Khodr of AJE
quote:Mohammed el Naas spokesman for #Sirte operation command tells us the final battle is imminent,
Mohammed el Naas spoeksman for sirte operation command: we are almost sure Mutassim #Gaddafi is in #Sirte
Mohammed el Naas ... Loyalists are no longer fighting for cause but to protect high ranking men from #Gaddafi circle Inside
Mohammed el Naas ... We did our best to block all escape routes from #Sirte but there have been security lapses,
we have seen checkpoints on the outskirts of the besieged city suddenly withdraw allowing the traffic to flow,
Naas Says the fight is not just about liberating #Sirte but "capturing #Gaddafi 's criminals" who have been surrounded for some time now
Naas says the#ICRC failed to properly coordinate with them when they entered #Sirte On humanitarian mission,
Naas says #ICRC didn't inform them of what they brought out from #Sirte, they didn't tell us they evacuated a foreign nurse,
Naas says #ICRC should coordinate with local red cross when entering #Sirte,
A few commanders who requested anonymity told me they believe some east European mercenaries escaped from #Sirte when #ICRC was in the city
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Oct 4, 2011 20:30
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Interesting audioboo from the BBC about Sirte, interviewing someone who recently left the city. Main points are that the NTC and NATO have told forces near Sirte not to attack the city centre because of the civilians in the city, and the guy who recently escaped Sirte says the population have been told if that the NTC forces will surprise sex and kill them all and destroy their homes, and some of the people who want to escape just don't have the means to do so.
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Oct 4, 2011 20:54
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- President Kucinich
- Feb 21, 2003
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Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think.
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OwlBot 2000 posted:
Why shouldn't the U.K. and France get some oil and money out of this? After all, they carried out airstrikes, gathered intelligence, and even sent in special forces to help coordinate attacks. Since they did all the hard work, it'd be more than a little unfair to ask them to walk away without some kind of reward.
Kind of like how the US is entitled to Iraq's oil after deposing Saddam.
The oil belongs to the people, it is their lifeline; to attempt to bilk it away from the people is nothing more than bog standard imperialism preying on withered people.
It tarnishes the reasoning behind intervening, turning the valiant efforts of their military into nothing more than a quest for loot. No longer will the fighting be done in the name of deposing terrible men from power, the fighting will instead be for the enrichment of a few at the expense of an already devastated people.
The Lybians need the oil far more than the British. It is the Lybian society that has been obliterated and will need every last dollar they can get their hands on if they ever hope to raise their standards of living to that of the British or French.
And if you say it was the British and French who did all the hard work, I'll have to point to the pile of rebel bodies that stand in the absence of British and French deaths. The hard work isn't flying state of the art military hardware across a desert, the hard work is gathering in front of anti-aircraft guns and demanding change.
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Oct 4, 2011 21:55
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- Toast Museum
- Dec 3, 2005
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30% Iron Chef
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President Kucinich posted:
Kind of like how the US is entitled to Iraq's oil after deposing Saddam.
The oil belongs to the people, it is their lifeline; to attempt to bilk it away from the people is nothing more than bog standard imperialism preying on withered people.
It tarnishes the reasoning behind intervening, turning the valiant efforts of their military into nothing more than a quest for loot. No longer will the fighting be done in the name of deposing terrible men from power, the fighting will instead be for the enrichment of a few at the expense of an already devastated people.
The Lybians need the oil far more than the British. It is the Lybian society that has been obliterated and will need every last dollar they can get their hands on if they ever hope to raise their standards of living to that of the British or French.
And if you say it was the British and French who did all the hard work, I'll have to point to the pile of rebel bodies that stand in the absence of British and French deaths. The hard work isn't flying state of the art military hardware across a desert, the hard work is gathering in front of anti-aircraft guns and demanding change.
I don't think he was being entirely serious.
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Oct 4, 2011 22:10
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- President Kucinich
- Feb 21, 2003
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Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think.
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Toast Museum posted:
I don't think he was being entirely serious.
But..its on the internet, so it has to be serious..
In other news, the Syrian government has reversed the week old ban on imports today; some say this is a sign the administration is fearing mounting pressure?
quote:
Analysts said that the ban last week on imported merchandise, which included goods like cars, household appliances and even food items, underscored a deep sense of anxiety among authorities as the country faces some of its most dangerous political unrest in four decades of dictatorship.
They said that the ban had been imposed without any study of the potential impact that it could have on the Syrian market or how it would affect Syria’s trade agreements with its neighboring countries. Some economists in Syria said both the import ban and its reversal were indicators that the leadership of Mr. Assad remains uncertain in the face of the uprising and its ramifications for the Syrian economy.
... it was not immediately clear why Syria would impose such a ban if it had two years’ reserves on hand. The measure was announced by the economy minister, Mohammad Nidal al-Shaar,on Sept. 26. He said it was temporary and precautionary, but that it was necessary to protect Syria’s foreign currency reserves, a key indicator of the government’s stability.
In an interview with the Al-Dunya Satellite Channel, which is close to the government, Mr. Shaar said that the decision might be revoked if neighboring countries imposed a similar ban on Syrian products, deepening the repercussions of the Syrian move. Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran, indeed, took similar decisions the past week, perhaps prompting the government’s reversal on Tuesday, economists said.
The uprising, which started in mid-March, has devastated Syria’s economy. The International Monetary Fund predicted that growth might actually shrink by 2 percent in 2011, given a decline in investment and losses in tourism which, with oil, provide Syria with much of its foreign currency.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/w...on-imports.html
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Oct 4, 2011 22:24
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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I can't help but translate that is it panicked the crap out of the bourgeoisie elements of Syrian society.
quote:The Obama administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity following diplomatic protocol, contended that, despite the reversal, “the damage has already been done.” The official said inflation had tripled and smuggling had surged since the decision was taken, unsettling a business elite in Syria that has largely sided with the government.
“The quote unquote ‘well to do’ are completely dismayed with Assad,” the official said. “They don’t think he knows what he’s doing. Inflation has gone up. He can’t fix it. And they have a feeling that he doesn’t know what to do.”
The Obama administration has sought to turn that elite against Assad, mainly through sanctions. The official suggested the administration was already seeing the sanctions’ impact, though the process may take six months or more. The official called the elite “more frustrated, more dismayed and less confident he can fix the situation.”
Ayup.
Panic among the middle and capital owning classes is a good way to get your rear end overthrown right quick. I can't even imagine the stupidity that went into making that call in the first place.
Edit// I can't help but making a noting similarities whats said here about our plan in Syria and what we did to Allende. Is it just me?
farraday fucked around with this message at Oct 4, 2011 around 22:44
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Oct 4, 2011 22:33
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- farraday
- Jan 10, 2007
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Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.
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Continuing on the Subject of Syria
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/m...3132792190.html
quote:
China and Russia veto UN resolution on Syria
Russia and China have joined forces to veto a European-drafted UN Security Council resolution condemning Syria and hinting that it could face sanctions if it continues its crackdown on protesters.
Tuesday’s resolution received nine votes in favor and four abstentions from Brazil, India, Lebanon and South Africa. Russia and China cast the only votes against the resolution, which was drafted by France with the co-operation of Britain, Germany and Portugal.
Western nations have been pressing for the adoption of the resolution condemning Syria's crackdown on anti-government protests.
Unsurprising. We'll see what happens with regional actors next, although if there was broad regional support for any action it would undoubtedly have manifested prior to an attempt at a UN resolution.
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Oct 4, 2011 23:37
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- Xandu
- Feb 19, 2006
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It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
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Yeah, Russia and China are a lot more connected to al-Assad than Gaddafi.
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Oct 4, 2011 23:39
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- Chronojam
- Feb 20, 2006
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gosh, mrs. robot, mom told me not to take mixed drinks from strangers
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Let's hope all the rebels remember who voted against it.
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Oct 5, 2011 02:53
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- OwlBot 2000
- Jun 1, 2009
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President Kucinich posted:
Kind of like how the US is entitled to Iraq's oil after deposing Saddam.
Even if you don't get sarcasm, I'm glad somebody's making the connection.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:00
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- ThePutty
- Jun 26, 2011
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"You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."
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So, to anybody with knowledge of the Syrian issue, is it likely the rebels there will eventually form a resistance, and start fighting back with weapons? It seems like a Gaddafi situation all over again, let's just hope NATO supports it if worst comes to worst.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:12
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- Young Freud
- Nov 25, 2006
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My old avatar sucked anyway.
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ThePutty posted:
So, to anybody with knowledge of the Syrian issue, is it likely the rebels there will eventually form a resistance, and start fighting back with weapons? It seems like a Gaddafi situation all over again, let's just hope NATO supports it if worst comes to worst.
If Syria turns into the next Libya, you can bet that NATO will get involved, mostly because of its proximity to Turkey, a NATO alliance member. Turkey has already become involved in part to harboring refugees, so if Syria begins targeting refugee camps as part of a crackdown (especially if the Syrian resistance uses them as staging areas), that can easily be written as a legitimate casus belli for NATO intervention, with or without UN approval.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:19
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- Toast Museum
- Dec 3, 2005
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30% Iron Chef
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ThePutty posted:
So, to anybody with knowledge of the Syrian issue, is it likely the rebels there will eventually form a resistance, and start fighting back with weapons? It seems like a Gaddafi situation all over again, let's just hope NATO supports it if worst comes to worst.
I don't know much about Syria, but if I recall earlier discussions here correctly, Syria's military is significantly larger and better equipped than Libya's. On the face of it, it seems like Syrian rebels would have a much harder time unless there were mass military defections or something.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:21
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- Sir John Falstaff
- Apr 13, 2010
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All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
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Toast Museum posted:
On the face of it, it seems like Syrian rebels would have a much harder time unless there were mass military defections or something.
That seems more likely to me than the kind of uprising that happened in Libya. I think it's more likely to be a military coup or civil war between military factions, if anything (barring interference from outside, of course).
Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at Oct 5, 2011 around 03:59
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Oct 5, 2011 03:57
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- VanSandman
- Feb 16, 2011
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I already miss my old avatar...
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Chronojam posted:
Let's hope all the rebels remember who voted against it.
Please. The contracts and poo poo are with the bourgeois of Syria, not necessarily the government itself. Bossa Nova, similis bossa seneca, etc.
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Oct 5, 2011 04:07
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- OwlBot 2000
- Jun 1, 2009
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quote:Bossa Nova, similis bossa seneca
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Oct 5, 2011 04:13
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- Brown Moses
- Feb 22, 2002
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Qatar accused of interfering in Libyan affairs
quote:The tiny Arab emirate of Qatar, a leading supporter of the revolution in Libya, has been accused by western diplomats of interfering in the country's sovereignty.
The claims come amid growing concern among Libyans in the National Transitional Council (NTC) and western officials that Qatar, which supplied arms to Libyan revolutionaries, is pursuing its own postwar agenda at the cost of wider efforts to bring political stability to the country.
Concern has been mounting over the last month that Qatar is bypassing an internationally agreed assistance strategy to Libya to throw its support behind individuals and factions contributing to the continuing political instability.
A senior diplomat said: "There is a question now about what foreign players like Qatar are doing in Libya – whether it is being helpful and respectful of Libyan sovereignty. "Qatar is not being respectful, and there is a feeling that it is riding roughshod over the issue of the country's sovereignty."
Reuters - Tripoli military chief says militias must pull out
quote:The military commander of Tripoli, a key figure in the revolution that overthrew Muammar Gaddafi, called on other militias to pull their weapons out of Tripoli, accusing them of terrorizing the city's population.
The remarks by Abdulhakim Belhadj, whose Tripoli Military Council claims a mandate from Libya's new rulers, follow rising concern about potential conflict among armed groups that converged on Tripoli to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi and have stayed on to demand stakes in a future government.
NPR - Post-Revolution, Libyan Women Seek Expanded Roles
quote:One recent day in Tripoli, hundreds of people strolled through a charity fundraiser organized by the women in Libya's capital city.
Women sold baked goods and handicrafts in rows of stalls. For the kids, there were a moon bounce and face painting. There was even a rock band that could use some practice.
It was a lot like charity bazaars in towns across the U.S., with a couple of notable exceptions: Most of the women wore headscarves, and among the more popular items for sale were hand-knitted versions of the Libyan flag.
The women running this fundraiser are revolutionaries, and they played a large but often unsung role in the uprising that toppled Moammar Gadhafi back in August. Now, they want a larger role in the new government and political system under construction in Libya.
New York Times - Back to School in Libya, and Struggling to Adjust
quote:The classrooms at the Dawn of Freedom middle school were empty. Teachers shuffled around aimlessly outside or gossiped in the halls. A small group of bored teenagers sat in the theater and hatched a plan to coax their classmates back.
The revolution was the problem, they figured. Just weeks after the liberation of Tripoli, their neighborhood, Abu Salim, remained a bastion of support for Libya’s deposed leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. The loyalists’ children — including teenagers who were recruited or had volunteered for military service — had little interest in learning the history of the uprising or the new national anthem, their friends said .
The solution was fliers, said Osama Mohamed, a 15-year-old who wore a brown blazer and led the teenage committee. “They will say: ‘To the children of Libya. Please come back to school. We want to move Libya forward.’ ”
Reuters - Libya army recruits march in capital full of gunmen
quote:Libya's new rulers on Tuesday unveiled a group of fighters trained to serve in a national army, in a step toward bringing armed groups under central authority in a capital bristling with revolutionary volunteers who ousted Muammar Gaddafi.
More than 500 new recruits marched behind a military band in Tripoli's Souq al-Jumaa district at a ceremony attended by a senior military officer to mark the end of their training for service in the national army.
Sky News - Libya: Fears Over Civilians Trapped In Sirte
quote:It is feared many civilians may be trapped inside the wartorn Libyan city of Sirte, unable to escape because they have no fuel for their vehicles.
The birthplace of deposed dictator of 42 years Muammar Gaddafi, it has been without electricity or clean water for days and medical supplies are also running out, reports Sky's Alex Rossi.
A steady stream of people are continuing to flee the fighting, many of them women and young children.
They say bombs are falling on their homes and civilians are being killed by the revolutionary offensive.
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Oct 5, 2011 07:37
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