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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

Gen. Ripper posted:

So has anything actually happened in the Middle East in the last 40 posts or is this just Tezzor trying to get that hate Amerikkka beat embed to play nonstop in D&D and failing miserably

Iran said they were offered cooperation with the anti-ISIS coalition but refused it. On the other hand, there were also reports that Iran was floating a deal where they would drop Assad if the US declined to strike in Syria. KSA said that if Iran was involved in the anti-ISIS coalition, they were out. Yet articles will still discuss the interesting circumstances that have led to the US, Iran, and KSA to be allies. Also Sadr basically said gently caress anything that involves working with Americans. Threatened to withdraw from any fronts the US was involved in, and said they would fight US troops should any arrive in Iraq.

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Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Gen. Ripper posted:

So has anything actually happened in the Middle East in the last 40 posts or is this just Tezzor trying to get that hate Amerikkka beat embed to play nonstop in D&D and failing miserably

ISIS hasn't been able to seize more cities recently. That's good.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

Tezzor posted:

Actually, it's because American crimes are actually supported and defended by the same nationalist liberals who cry piously about other countries doing things that are similar but objectively less egregious in terms of both their frequency and the degree of human suffering they create. If there were a dozen Russians on here arguing in favor of invading other countries I'd criticize them too, because unlike American warmongers I have a grasp of both usual outcomes and intellectual coherency.

Nothing says someone has intellectual coherency like getting dogpiled by dozens of people and having no support. Also Mightypeon walks the RT line here, so tell us how you really feel.

Tezzor
Jul 29, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!

Volkerball posted:

Nothing says someone has intellectual coherency like getting dogpiled by dozens of people and having no support. Also Mightypeon walks the RT line here, so tell us how you really feel.

Did you know that 2002-2003 era D&D vehemently supported the Iraq War, and those arguing against it were "dogpiled," denounced, mocked and largely banned? You can relive it here. Which is not really evidence in itself that I am right now, but it is evidence that the phenomenon doesn't make me wrong.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Tezzor posted:

Did you know that 2002-2003 era D&D vehemently supported the Iraq War, and those arguing against it were "dogpiled," denounced, mocked and largely banned? You can relive it here. Which is not really evidence in itself that I am right now, but it is evidence that the phenomenon doesn't make me wrong.

Did you know that people 12 years ago who largely aren't present have no bearing on anything?

Captain Mog
Jun 17, 2011

Tezzor posted:

You're right, I don't support an aggressive war in a Muslim country because I Hate America. On another topic, I have been thoroughly convinced that the liberal pro-war arguments are totally dissimilar to those used to advocate war in Iraq.

Except we went to war in Iraq in '03 based on unfounded suppositions. There isn't much of a comparison to make. There's no disputing that ISIS is wreaking havoc in Iraq. There's no disputing that they have beheaded American & British citizens. There is no disputing that they will become a larger threat to the West if allowed to take over the country. It's best to tackle this head-on at this point, doing anything else will just create a worse situation further down the line.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Except that even people who oppose the current American intervention in the Middle East are still arguing with you, because you bizarrely seem to think consistently opposing American intervention means having to whitewash Putin's crimes of killing thousands and displacing hundreds of thousands as just "moving a line on a map"

Radio Prune
Feb 19, 2010
This poor excuse for a discussion is stupid and boring and Tezzor is a one-note walking stereotype of the unironically-spells-it-"AmeriKKKA"-on-the-reg style soi-disant ~politically aware~ leftist. At least he's self-aware enough to not openly support absurd, baseless conspiracy theories and instead skirts the "well you never know..." line.

Spoke Lee
Dec 31, 2004

chairizard lol

Sergg posted:

I really don't have a plan that would be palatable to a Western audience. Best I can come up with is continue to help out the moderate and heavily vetted rebels like FSA and Kurds.

Oh and Tezzor, the death toll in the Ukraine conflict is at the very least 3000 killed with anywhere between half a million to a million refugees.

Deteriorata posted:

Best we can do is stall and keep ISIS from expanding while the local actors with a real stake in the outcome get their poo poo together.

Oh, I completely agree. This was more for those against any air support or aiding rebel groups at all. I've been seeing a lot of commentary in some of the media I follow that are a take down of the US government and media. Usually with the solution being to fix the societal conditions that allowed ISIS to thrive. That's great and should happen, but how does that help the populations next on the medieval revival tour?

Lyesh
Apr 9, 2003

Captain Mog posted:

Except we went to war in Iraq in '03 based on unfounded suppositions. There isn't much of a comparison to make. There's no disputing that ISIS is wreaking havoc in Iraq. There's no disputing that they have beheaded American & British citizens. There is no disputing that they will become a larger threat to the West if allowed to take over the country. It's best to tackle this head-on at this point, doing anything else will just create a worse situation further down the line.

ISIS is not now and never, ever will be remotely the threat to the West that traffic accidents are. Let alone more serious of one. Even if they obtained nukes through some fluke, they logistically can't do it and probably couldn't even if they had all the resources of Iraq and Syria available to them.

There's an argument that they're so brutal and murdering so many people that the west can act in a beneficial way. But the parallels with the 2003 invasion of Iraq are absolutely on target since Hussein was, in fact, an awful, brutal dictator. WMDs were the supposed causus belli for that war, but there was plenty of rhetoric on the side of those selling the war about how much the Iraqi people wanted freedom from tyranny.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Lyesh posted:

There's an argument that they're so brutal and murdering so many people that the west can act in a beneficial way. But the parallels with the 2003 invasion of Iraq are absolutely on target since Hussein was, in fact, an awful, brutal dictator. WMDs were the supposed causus belli for that war, but there was plenty of rhetoric on the side of those selling the war about how much the Iraqi people wanted freedom from tyranny.

Stop living in the past. We'll get it right this time, because we're the good guys. We'll be welcomed as liberators. Or at least, Iraq's Shia army will be, guarantee it.

Captain Mog
Jun 17, 2011

Lyesh posted:

ISIS is not now and never, ever will be remotely the threat to the West that traffic accidents are. Let alone more serious of one. Even if they obtained nukes through some fluke, they logistically can't do it and probably couldn't even if they had all the resources of Iraq and Syria available to them.

There's an argument that they're so brutal and murdering so many people that the west can act in a beneficial way. But the parallels with the 2003 invasion of Iraq are absolutely on target since Hussein was, in fact, an awful, brutal dictator. WMDs were the supposed causus belli for that war, but there was plenty of rhetoric on the side of those selling the war about how much the Iraqi people wanted freedom from tyranny.

Perhaps not "threat" in the sense that there's a real risk of them landing on the shores of Rhode island in 2023 with guns a'blazing, but with enough resources and training they could easily carry out random terrorist attacks on American soil in the near future. Remember this is the group that Al Qaeda thought was too crazy. I wouldn't doubt for a second that there are members of ISIS in this country today.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Tezzor, rather than rehash the past 13 years of world history, what would your solution to IS be?

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Captain Mog posted:

Perhaps not "threat" in the sense that there's a real risk of them landing on the shores of Rhode island in 2023 with guns a'blazing, but with enough resources and training they could easily carry out random terrorist attacks on American soil in the near future. Remember this is the group that Al Qaeda thought was too crazy. I wouldn't doubt for a second that there are members of ISIS in this country today.

Would you say that we have to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here? Perhaps we'd be even more successful if they'd bring it on even harder?

hepatizon
Oct 27, 2010

Captain Mog posted:

Except we went to war in Iraq in '03 based on unfounded suppositions. There isn't much of a comparison to make. There's no disputing that ISIS is wreaking havoc in Iraq. There's no disputing that they have beheaded American & British citizens. There is no disputing that they will become a larger threat to the West if allowed to take over the country. It's best to tackle this head-on at this point, doing anything else will just create a worse situation further down the line.

The important with Iraq is that the rationales for war are a thin veneer over straight-up bloodlust. We're going to war because they got our goat, plain and simple.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless
Border patrol found Quran books on the Mexican border.

El Jebus
Jun 18, 2008

This avatar is paid for by "Avatars for improving Lowtax's spine by any means that doesn't result in him becoming brain dead by putting his brain into a cyborg body and/or putting him in a exosuit due to fears of the suit being hacked and crushing him during a cyberpunk future timeline" Foundation

Volkerball posted:

Border patrol found Quran books on the Mexican border.



Oh poo poo, I live near the Mexican border!!

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless
Better vote Republican.

El Jebus
Jun 18, 2008

This avatar is paid for by "Avatars for improving Lowtax's spine by any means that doesn't result in him becoming brain dead by putting his brain into a cyborg body and/or putting him in a exosuit due to fears of the suit being hacked and crushing him during a cyberpunk future timeline" Foundation

Volkerball posted:

Better vote Republican.

Nah, I try to just believe the opposite of whatever someone tells/shows me from Fox.

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?
It's funny because they can just come here on student or refugee visas like all of our past terrorists have.

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

OctaviusBeaver posted:

It's funny because they can just come here on student or refugee visas like all of our past terrorists have.

Or they are American citizens.

L-Boned
Sep 11, 2001

by FactsAreUseless

Volkerball posted:

Well that's the kicker isn't it? If the forces that those advisers were working with didn't like the US, then it would be an invasion. Since that's not the case, it's really not comparable.



That's my old unit. I remember Rumsfeld coming out there about ten years ago.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Gen. Ripper posted:

So has anything actually happened in the Middle East in the last 40 posts or is this just Tezzor trying to get that hate Amerikkka beat embed to play nonstop in D&D and failing miserably

ISIS made 3 human sacrifices yesterday. America bombed some people. We also tortured some more people. Iran made overtures towards an independent Kurdistan and independent Alawite state. Kuwait pretends everything is calm and to please keep those mean Saudi extremists away from the oil. Lebanese army is putting in place measures necessary for severe repression of islamist groups and their networks in connection to kidnappings of Lebanese soldiers. Hezbollah continues to dig tunnels under the Israeli border, slightly hurried due to the impending Lebanese crackdown.

E:

Lyesh posted:

ISIS is not now and never, ever will be remotely the threat to the West that traffic accidents are. Let alone more serious of one. Even if they obtained nukes through some fluke, they logistically can't do it and probably couldn't even if they had all the resources of Iraq and Syria available to them.

There's an argument that they're so brutal and murdering so many people that the west can act in a beneficial way. But the parallels with the 2003 invasion of Iraq are absolutely on target since Hussein was, in fact, an awful, brutal dictator. WMDs were the supposed causus belli for that war, but there was plenty of rhetoric on the side of those selling the war about how much the Iraqi people wanted freedom from tyranny.

Think of it like a public health epidemic. Radical islamism is an infectious disease that must be contained. Car deaths are routine, malaria, a solved problem; fundamentalism, an issue we resolved through the Wars of Religion and the American Civil War. Secular Federalism won out. In that sense, ISIS is an EVD of the Middle-East: Uncontained, uncontrolled, and has potential to hit the homeland.

E2:

Volkerball posted:

Or they are American citizens.

This. They target their recruitment at disenfranchised international minorities, a demographic that literally every nation contains.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Sep 16, 2014

NathanScottPhillips
Jul 23, 2009

Captain Mog posted:

Except we went to war in Iraq in '03 based on unfounded suppositions. There isn't much of a comparison to make. There's no disputing that ISIS is wreaking havoc in Iraq. There's no disputing that they have beheaded American & British citizens. There is no disputing that they will become a larger threat to the West if allowed to take over the country. It's best to tackle this head-on at this point, doing anything else will just create a worse situation further down the line.
I agree. Let's take down ISIS just like we took down Al Qaeda and the Taliban!

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

NathanScottPhillips posted:

I agree. Let's take down ISIS just like we took down Al Qaeda and the Taliban!

We eliminated all their confirmed membership in Western nations and placed all suspect and probable members in the susceptible population under heightened surveillance.

Hence why all Maori, natives', and ex-prisoners' phones are monitored by NSA and CIA.

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

Think of it like a public health epidemic. Radical islamism is an infectious disease that must be contained. Car deaths are routine, malaria, a solved problem; fundamentalism, an issue we resolved through the Wars of Religion and the American Civil War. Secular Federalism won out. In that sense, ISIS is an EVD of the Middle-East: Uncontained, uncontrolled, and has potential to hit the homeland.

That's a horribly corrosive metaphor. The "mowing the grass" and other preventive measures that states are using is actually a major cause of radical, militant Islam. It's the natural expression of a people who have been oppressed and seen their leaders executed or bought out, and their families bombed with American or European or Soviet-provided bombs.

Your metaphor only makes sense if people were trying to prevent malaria by spraying water indiscriminately on mosquitoes, leaving behind pools of standing water as a result that makes it more likely for even more mosquitos to be bred than could have in the original situation.

The Protagonist
Jun 29, 2009

The average is 5.5? I thought it was 4. This is very unsettling.
I pretty well agree that meddling and intervention has netted more problems than solutions, but the problem is here now, so what do we do about it? Some bombing versus nothing seem about on par for either fanning the flames or letting the fire grow on its own.

There's nothing like prosperity, education and equal rights to elevate living standards and squash extremism, but how do you even get to that point when you can't build a school or even a drat road? I always think of Restrepo when it comes to attempting to develop just the most basic bits of civilization and the ferocity of the resistance against it.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

TildeATH posted:

That's a horribly corrosive metaphor. The "mowing the grass" and other preventive measures that states are using is actually a major cause of radical, militant Islam. It's the natural expression of a people who have been oppressed and seen their leaders executed or bought out, and their families bombed with American or European or Soviet-provided bombs.

Your metaphor only makes sense if people were trying to prevent malaria by spraying water indiscriminately on mosquitoes, leaving behind pools of standing water as a result that makes it more likely for even more mosquitos to be bred than could have in the original situation.

Solution: Spray the water with a napalm-like gel and incinerate after the eradication campaign. Alternatively, use a chlorine-based gas.

Militant islam on the level of ISIS is neither rational nor natural to its human hosts, and should be managed as if it were a public health issue. Militant islam is an epidemic that must be contained.

Further edit: I am not arguing for mowing the grass. I am arguing for a controlled burn of weeds along the roadside while replacing them with prarie grass or kentucky bluegross which is then mowed in accordance to the appropriate department's mowing policy.

E:

The Protagonist posted:

I pretty well agree that meddling and intervention has netted more problems than solutions, but the problem is here now, so what do we do about it? Some bombing versus nothing seem about on par for either fanning the flames or letting the fire grow on its own.

There's nothing like prosperity, education and equal rights to elevate living standards and squash extremism, but how do you even get to that point when you can't build a school or even a drat road? I always think of Restrepo when it comes to attempting to develop just the most basic bits of civilization and the ferocity of the resistance against it.

There is evidence for several answers, all of which have high costs in terms of public relations, manhours, lives, American lives, allied lives, and money. Do you want a realistic answer for an evidence-based policy success to use as an example, an acceptable answer, or complete oppiate conjecture?

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Sep 16, 2014

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

Solution: Spray the water with a napalm-like gel and incinerate after the eradication campaign. Alternatively, use a chlorine-based gas.

You don't seem to comprehend how metaphors work. The whole point of my tortured example was to try to modify your metaphor to make sense, not to suggest Solving Malaria With One Simple Trick.

My Imaginary GF posted:

Militant islam on the level of ISIS is neither rational nor natural to its human hosts, and should be managed as if it were a public health issue. Militant islam is an epidemic that must be contained.

Dehumanizing language is worrisome wherever it shows up, but especially when it's from those in power toward those who have been consistently oppressed. This is a Middle Eastern version of the Khmer Rouge, and as such trying to gin up public support by attempting to frame the participants as "monsters" is likely to do little more than fan domestic racism.

My Imaginary GF posted:

There is evidence for several answers, all of which have high costs in terms of public relations, manhours, lives, American lives, allied lives, and money. Do you want a realistic answer for an evidence-based policy success to use as an example?

You misunderstand me. I'm a cynic, and I assume that the USA will continue as it has to choose what's expedient for their markets. As Arundhati Roy once put it more eloquently than I ever could:

Today Corporate Globalization needs an international confederation of loyal, corrupt, preferably authoritarian governments in poorer countries to push through unpopular reforms and quell the mutinies. It needs a press that pretends to be free. It needs courts that pretend to dispense justice. It needs nuclear bombs, standing armies, sterner immigration laws, and watchful coastal patrols to make sure that it's only money, goods, patents, and services that are being globalized - not the free movement of people, not a respect for human rights, not international treaties on racial discrimination or chemical and nuclear weapons, or greenhouse gas emissions, climate change, or god forbid, justice. It's as though even a gesture towards international accountability would wreck the whole enterprise.

So you can continue to pretend like this is all very simple and obvious (or who knows, maybe you believe it?), and I'm sure the actions of these states will resemble the short-sighted courses of action you suggest and the horrific ways of thinking that you espouse, and that they'll trot those out the next time this tragedy replays itself.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich
Good news, everyone: Turkey is "considering establishing a buffer zone within Syria" should coalition discussions with Iran continue. Gee, almost as if they don't want the Kurds to have an independent pipeline and independent secular state, and would rather fight a proxy war with Iran in Syria with their boots on the ground.

In other news, Turkey will probably accept Qatar's expelled MB members. Also of note, Qatar and Turkey are accused of supplying arms to the Libyan militant group behind the Tripoli airport attack.

Proxywar count in ME this week: 4, by my reckoning. Maybe 5.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Sep 16, 2014

Femur
Jan 10, 2004
I REALLY NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP

The Protagonist posted:

I pretty well agree that meddling and intervention has netted more problems than solutions, but the problem is here now, so what do we do about it? Some bombing versus nothing seem about on par for either fanning the flames or letting the fire grow on its own.

There's nothing like prosperity, education and equal rights to elevate living standards and squash extremism, but how do you even get to that point when you can't build a school or even a drat road? I always think of Restrepo when it comes to attempting to develop just the most basic bits of civilization and the ferocity of the resistance against it.

All the good solution take money, but even their leaders didn't want to waste money, hence the problem, why would ours?

Unfortunately, there is a rather cheap way to provide short term relief. We decried Saddam's methods, but look at us now. But he was a butcher, while we are surgeons is the excuse.

All leaders of the past used war for personal gain and glory, but somehow leaders today are more noble, what do you think?

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Femur posted:

All the good solution take money, but even their leaders didn't want to waste money, hence the problem, why would ours?

Unfortunately, there is a rather cheap way to provide short term relief. We decried Saddam's methods, but look at us now. But he was a butcher, while we are surgeons is the excuse.

All leaders of the past used war for personal gain and glory, but somehow leaders today are more noble, what do you think?

#NotAllPresidents

Some used war for revenge. Some used war for extremely justified revenge, to hell with glory. Some used war for revenge against the cousins of his cabinet member's wives who wanted to expsnd slsvery indians, so eliminated the indian population they were hoping to enslave., thus forever mosrtly freeing them from the shackles of slavery.

We must apply our butcher's knife selectively, to empower groups willing to work within our framework by our rules; and we must allow those who would advance our agenda the means to pacify the region and establish a lasting peace with secure state borders which prevent a complete regional war. In that calculus, what are 30 million dead Syrians compared to 50 million dead from a true regional war with complete state collapse to follow for the survivors? Is that not a good solution that doesn't cost too much money?

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

In that calculus, what are 30 million dead Syrians compared to 50 million dead from a true regional war with complete state collapse to follow for the survivors? Is that not a good solution that doesn't cost too much money?

Are you saying we should kill 30 million Syrians because if we don't 50 million will die?

Are you having a breakdown? Before the tents comment, you seemed to be conservative but sane.

Femur
Jan 10, 2004
I REALLY NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP

My Imaginary GF posted:

#NotAllPresidents

Some used war for revenge. Some used war for extremely justified revenge, to hell with glory. Some used war for revenge against the cousins of his cabinet member's wives who wanted to expsnd slsvery indians, so eliminated the indian population they were hoping to enslave., thus forever mosrtly freeing them from the shackles of slavery.

We must apply our butcher's knife selectively, to empower groups willing to work within our framework by our rules; and we must allow those who would advance our agenda the means to pacify the region and establish a lasting peace with secure state borders which prevent a complete regional war. In that calculus, what are 30 million dead Syrians compared to 50 million dead from a true regional war with complete state collapse to follow for the survivors? Is that not a good solution that doesn't cost too much money?

Revenge is a glory wouldn't you say? Ambition of all type is for glory.

Your solution requires knowing the future; we just failed to anticipate Russia's Ukraine invasion, I don't know how on the ball we are. Why should I trust your numbers are not reversed? It seems more logical that $500m more weapons would lead to higher death count to me.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

TildeATH posted:

That's a horribly corrosive metaphor. The "mowing the grass" and other preventive measures that states are using is actually a major cause of radical, militant Islam. It's the natural expression of a people who have been oppressed and seen their leaders executed or bought out, and their families bombed with American or European or Soviet-provided bombs.

Your metaphor only makes sense if people were trying to prevent malaria by spraying water indiscriminately on mosquitoes, leaving behind pools of standing water as a result that makes it more likely for even more mosquitos to be bred than could have in the original situation.

Look how well it worked for Israel, periodically culling the population of Gaza! Now everybody loves Israel and it is safer than ever and...

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

TildeATH posted:

Are you saying we should kill 30 million Syrians because if we don't 50 million will die?

Are you having a breakdown? Before the tents comment, you seemed to be conservative but sane.

I'm saying, the humanitarian disaster from the ISIS and Assad collapse will impact at least 30 million individuals. I am not saying America should kill anyone; I am saying that now is the time to look away on any ethnic operations our men in the region may commit in order to secure the long-term stability of the region, and that the alternstive to this inaction is worse.

E:

Torrannor posted:

Look how well it worked for Israel, periodically culling the population of Gaza! Now everybody loves Israel and it is safer than ever and...

Yes, a goal should be to avoid any Israel-like issues with the states which are to emerge in the region.

E2:

Femur posted:

Revenge is a glory wouldn't you say? Ambition of all type is for glory.

Your solution requires knowing the future; we just failed to anticipate Russia's Ukraine invasion, I don't know how on the ball we are. Why should I trust your numbers are not reversed? It seems more logical that $500m more weapons would lead to higher death count to me.

Which Ukranian invasion, waves 1, 2, or 3? We anticipated 1 far too late for Ukraine to take any proactive counter-measures, we clearly understood 2 and 3 would come and began aiding Ukraine as best we could given the constraints we're under and our desire for Russian partnership against militant islam.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Sep 16, 2014

TildeATH
Oct 21, 2010

by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

I am saying that now is the time to look away on any ethnic operations our men in the region may commit

What the gently caress is an "ethnic operation"?

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

My Imaginary GF posted:

Proxywar count in ME this week: 4, by my reckoning. Maybe 5.

Do multiple fronts in the same country count? Otherwise: Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen (always a dark horse), Afghanistan and maybe Palestine/Gaza and/or Lebanon. Somalia shouldn't count.

flashman
Dec 16, 2003

My Imaginary GF posted:

Think of it like a public health epidemic. Radical islamism is an infectious disease that must be contained. Car deaths are routine, malaria, a solved problem; fundamentalism, an issue we resolved through the Wars of Religion and the American Civil War. Secular Federalism won out. In that sense, ISIS is an EVD of the Middle-East: Uncontained, uncontrolled, and has potential to hit the homeland.

Hard to say that fundamentalism is a solved problem in America when Bush tries to garner support for his war that created this mess in the first place by saying he sees "Gog and Magog at work".

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Tezzor
Jul 29, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!

suboptimal posted:

Tezzor, rather than rehash the past 13 years of world history, what would your solution to IS be?

Probably not much. You can think about containment, or about deploying troops in defensive positions, but they're unlikely to be supported politically. The important point is that some things are not actually solvable by throwing a lot of bombs at them, or arming "moderate" rebels. US invasions with ground troops have a terrible success rate, but those methods above in the absence of some ground forces are currently batting 0% in actually improving anything anywhere. To be charitable. I know that probably offends your sense of justice, but that's why "rehashing history" is important. It's easy and righteous to respond emotionally to an atrocity and demand that it cease, by force if necessary. It's messy and hard to recognize that there's very little chance that force is going to do much of anything positive for the people you're trying to help, especially when your proposed plan has literally never worked.

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