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spacetoaster posted:Why would anyone have an issue with their religion? Ahaha, are you for real? e: I'm not saying they should, just that they will. I'm from Serbia, due to a caprice of geography more or less all migrants taking the land route to EU have to pass through here. I have friends and family in both Bulgaria and Greece. I can tell you first hand that religion is a pretty popular reason for justifying terrible opinions re: immigrants. It's not just Balkans either, just take a gander at the Eastern Europe thread here in D&D. I'll bet my right arm you'll hear similar opinions in Western Europe too. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 20:19
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SaltyJesus posted:just take a gander at the Eastern Europe thread here in D&D. I'll bet my right arm you'll hear similar opinions in Western Europe too. I don't need to. I have/had a vacation home in Crimea. Russians!  Volkerball posted:Of course not. The thing is that the underlying situations causing the influx in refugees can only be solved in two ways. With smart foreign policy focused on resolving the conflicts, or with some luck. Nobody is interested in the former, and if you're betting on the latter showing up in the middle east soon, I've got some bad news. The only not politically toxic thing to do right now is to step up humanitarian aid and do more to resettle refugees, and that's becoming an increasingly popular policy in Europe, with the aim being an eventual EU migration deal that will institutionalize refugee resettlement throughout all of Europe. I wish the US shared the sentiment, but we're greedy, selfish fucks. Sorry Euro goons. At least you can rub in how backwards we are for 20 years or however long we cling on to this archaic policy long after its time has passed. I suppose colonizing is completely out?
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Sep 2, 2015 20:31
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The boy and most of the victims were from Kobane.
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Sep 2, 2015 21:30
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Volkerball posted:The boy and most of the victims were from Kobane. All they wanted to do was not die... This world didn't deserve that kid 
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Sep 3, 2015 00:42
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Volkerball posted:The boy and most of the victims were from Kobane. CommieGIR posted:All they wanted to do was not die... Goddamn it. And Kobani's even semi-safe right now, if they'd gone back home they might still be alive. (Or maybe they might have been killed in that ISIL suicide attack, because  )Seriously, the Middle East is so loving depressing
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Sep 3, 2015 01:21
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Volkerball posted:I wish the US shared the sentiment, but we're greedy, selfish fucks. I'm betting we end up with more Central American refugees than Europe does. Aside from them, most of what I'm seeing currently are Eritreans which also seem to make up a good number of European refugees.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:24
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:I'm betting we end up with more Central American refugees than Europe does. Aside from them, most of what I'm seeing currently are Eritreans which also seem to make up a good number of European refugees. most of whom?
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Sep 3, 2015 01:25
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spacetoaster posted:What's the long term solution though? We take all the refugees from everywhere and pretend the situations driving them don't exist? Sure, that would be fine. There's no problem with it other than the bigotry and nationalism of the worst people in host nations. The instability of the refugees' countries of origin cannot be an excuse to take half-measures in response to a humanitarian crisis, because nations locked in war are not welfare recipients you need to "teach to fish so they can eat for a lifetime" or something. quote:Is integration with the host nation a goal? In my experience handwringing over "integration" is code for "white culture's dying out." If you're concerned about them being provided with adequate services, provide the services.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:04
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SedanChair posted:Sure, that would be fine. There's no problem with it other than the bigotry and nationalism of the worst people in host nations. The instability of the refugees' countries of origin cannot be an excuse to take half-measures in response to a humanitarian crisis, because nations locked in war are not welfare recipients you need to "teach to fish so they can eat for a lifetime" or something. for real though refugees take a while to get settled, many are extensively traumatised and don't speak the language of the society they're transplanting into which are, you know reasonable concerns
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Sep 3, 2015 02:22
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it takes a significant investment to turn a refugee into a productive member of society, and that takes resources. taking every refugee from everywhere and putting them into idk denmark or whereever isn't actually going to solve anything you'd just suddenly be faced with lebanon 2: lebanon even worse
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Sep 3, 2015 02:23
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V. Illych L. posted:it takes a significant investment to turn a refugee into a productive member of society, and that takes resources. taking every refugee from everywhere and putting them into idk denmark or whereever isn't actually going to solve anything you'd just suddenly be faced with lebanon 2: lebanon even worse So what?
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Sep 3, 2015 02:30
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Sure but just consider how many resources were expended to turn them into refugees in the first place! After all, Iraq was a relatively secular, stable, prosperous society until we blew it to smithereens.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:32
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SedanChair posted:Sure, that would be fine. There's no problem with it other than the bigotry and nationalism of the worst people in host nations. The instability of the refugees' countries of origin cannot be an excuse to take half-measures in response to a humanitarian crisis, because nations locked in war are not welfare recipients you need to "teach to fish so they can eat for a lifetime" or something. I just don't understand why someone who's so very concerned about the plight of refugees can so easily disregard the issues causing people to become refugees. SedanChair posted:In my experience handwringing over "integration" is code for "white culture's dying out." If you're concerned about them being provided with adequate services, provide the services. Ah yes, it's racist. We can just not discuss "integration" then. 
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Sep 3, 2015 02:41
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Sure but just consider how many resources were expended to turn them into refugees in the first place! After all, Iraq was a relatively secular, stable, prosperous society until we blew it to smithereens. i agree america and britain should definitely take their share of refugees from the syrian conflict. atm it's mostly germany and sweden doing the heavy lifting, though, and they are as far as i am aware quite blameless in that particular fiasco CommieGIR posted:So what? so this is a question that has to be dealt with in terms of intelligently allocating resources. if a society of ten million cannot sustainably absorb more than a hundred thousand refugees, then they shouldn't be in a position where they have to take a hundred thousand refugees. simply staying at the moral level of "these people need help". sedan chair's dismissal of concerns about integration sounds like scandinavian social democrats from the seventies and eighties, whose naiveté on this issue directly led to the rise of the populist/nativist right which are now kingmakers in Denmark, are in government in Norway and are rapidly becoming a major power bloc in sweden there's a reason everyone accepts that italy and greece are getting "too many" refugees - at least for a while, these people are a fairly heavy burden on new societies. in time, they will presumably pay for themselves, but in a short- to medium-term. a refugee both needs and deserves a decent level of public investment - if that cannot be offered, they need to go elsewhere. obviously, everyone should have somewhere to go, but not everyone can go to [INSERT COUNTRY HERE]
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Sep 3, 2015 02:41
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V. Illych L. posted:most of whom? I work with refugees in a large resettlement community. We have also been a major destination for unaccompanied minors from Central America. Last year the school district of ~5000 students got 700 new students from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. This summer we saw another spike and I'm currently seeing several new kids a week.
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Sep 3, 2015 03:25
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The current problem is that European politicians appear to have set up a situation where if you run through a minefield and manage to get to the other side then you win. They should have given aid and financial assistance to Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey for the support of the refugees in those countries.
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Sep 3, 2015 05:39
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V. Illych L. posted:it takes a significant investment to turn a refugee into a productive member of society, and that takes resources. taking every refugee from everywhere and putting them into idk denmark or whereever isn't actually going to solve anything you'd just suddenly be faced with lebanon 2: lebanon even worse Would still be an improvement over current Denmark though 
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Sep 3, 2015 06:08
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So Turkish media published what they described as evidence of the AKP tranferring weapons to ISIL. The evidence seemed a bit weak, and could have been explained away as corrupt customs officials. Instead, Turkish police raided 20 media outlets and accused them of terrorism. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/09/turkey-syria-daily-exposes-transfer-weapons-supplies-to-isis.html
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Sep 3, 2015 06:21
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V. Illych L. posted:it takes a significant investment to turn a refugee into a productive member of society, and that takes resources. taking every refugee from everywhere and putting them into idk denmark or whereever isn't actually going to solve anything you'd just suddenly be faced with lebanon 2: lebanon even worse The money needs to come from the pockets of hardworking Europeans. They can drink fewer pints of whichever strong, highly alcoholic beers their unearned lifestyle has accustomed them to. It's the same in the US with Central American refugees. What kind of sad person begrudges refugees money? "Oh look here are men women and children who've seen more in a week than I will in my wasted, comfortable lifetime. I'd better tighten my purse." That's capital, I'm sure they're staying out of hell with that attitude. And it's self-defeating as well. I've worked with refugee youth from Central America a bit, as well as trafficked kids from Somalia. You can't come through circumstances like that without picking up some valuable traits. You want to throw money at those kids, they will become your most productive members of society. And by definition, if you're really trying to support those kids you'll be supporting their parents. If you simply stack pallets of euros in the driveways of programs that serve these families well, and your society prospers.
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Sep 3, 2015 06:21
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SedanChair posted:The money needs to come from the pockets of hardworking Europeans. They can drink fewer pints of whichever strong, highly alcoholic beers their unearned lifestyle has accustomed them to. It's the same in the US with Central American refugees. What kind of sad person begrudges refugees money? "Oh look here are men women and children who've seen more in a week than I will in my wasted, comfortable lifetime. I'd better tighten my purse." That's capital, I'm sure they're staying out of hell with that attitude. Since there seems to be some people ITT with direct experience with refugees, I have a question. When I was doing my undergrad in International Relations, a big discussion started in one of my classes over some article that argued more money had a tendency to make refugees and developing states more dependent on aid. While I have no first hand experience with refugees or developing states, I felt that this was a result of poor planning/program implementation, rather than "more money is bad." Is this an appropriate stance, or does "mo money" truly cause "mo problems" in some cases of displaced people?
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Sep 3, 2015 06:28
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Bait and Swatch posted:Since there seems to be some people ITT with direct experience with refugees, I have a question. When I was doing my undergrad in International Relations, a big discussion started in one of my classes over some article that argued more money had a tendency to make refugees and developing states more dependent on aid. While I have no first hand experience with refugees or developing states, I felt that this was a result of poor planning/program implementation, rather than "more money is bad." Is this an appropriate stance, or does "mo money" truly cause "mo problems" in some cases of displaced people? There were a local researcher that was working on a paper about how countries with extensive social safety-nets are actually worse at integrating refugees and immigrants than countries without these safety checks, I'll see if I can find that paper. Also, when most people say integration they actually mean assimilation, which is a distinctly different thing.
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Sep 3, 2015 07:28
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Bait and Swatch posted:So Turkish media published what they described as evidence of the AKP tranferring weapons to ISIL. The evidence seemed a bit weak, and could have been explained away as corrupt customs officials. Instead, Turkish police raided 20 media outlets and accused them of terrorism. Was about to post this. The article couches it as another battle between the Gulenists and the AKP. From my perspective at least, the heavy handed response seems to confirm both the headline and the infighting line. Erdogan; subtle he ain't.
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Sep 3, 2015 08:18
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Bait and Swatch posted:I was in the 1st Cav G-2 for both of my deployments, from October '06 to December '07 and then from January '09 to January '10. Both trips the 1CD AO was MND-B (Baghdad and surrounding areas). If you do, please link to it in this thread. I voraciously devour Iraq stories!
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Sep 3, 2015 09:05
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Aurubin posted:Was about to post this. The article couches it as another battle between the Gulenists and the AKP. From my perspective at least, the heavy handed response seems to confirm both the headline and the infighting line. Erdogan; subtle he ain't. An operation against Koza Ipek Holding was widely rumored beforehand and in fact it seems the company warned its employees of an imminent raid the morning it happened. I guess they wanted to go out with a bang. It's doubtful it will achieve anything though. They'll win at courts.
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Sep 3, 2015 12:38
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SedanChair posted:The money needs to come from the pockets of hardworking Europeans. They can drink fewer pints of whichever strong, highly alcoholic beers their unearned lifestyle has accustomed them to. It's the same in the US with Central American refugees. What kind of sad person begrudges refugees money? "Oh look here are men women and children who've seen more in a week than I will in my wasted, comfortable lifetime. I'd better tighten my purse." That's capital, I'm sure they're staying out of hell with that attitude. wtf is this post why are you deliberately making GBS threads up an at times actually good thread sedanchair
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Sep 3, 2015 14:44
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This is interesting, Division 30 got off to a really rocky start, but it looks like they're back in business: https://twitter.com/arabthomness/status/639411942055112704  quote:#Syria: the 30th Division (#FSA) will now be able to directly call in #US airstrikes on #Daesh in N #Aleppo quote:#Syria: #JN has released all 30th Division (#FSA) members and left N #Aleppo, 30th rebels have entered Mare' There also supposed to be another class of Division 30 guys graduating, so ISIL may end up stuck between a rock and a hard place pretty soon.
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Sep 3, 2015 16:53
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fade5 posted:JaN released all the Division 30 guys who were captured, and then JaN left Mare so that the US/coalition could bring down the hammer on ISIL (this way there are no accusations that the coalition was/is acting as Nusra's air force). That's some pretty good work by the CIA.
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Sep 3, 2015 16:54
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Zeroisanumber posted:That's some pretty good work by the CIA.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:07
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V. Illych L. posted:wtf is this post Is failing to be bigoted, nationalist and self-defeating so surprising and alien to Europeans? Making your country a haven for as many refugees as can make it there has no downsides.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:25
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SedanChair posted:Making your country a haven for as many refugees as can make it there has no downsides. New thread title.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:46
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V. Illych L. posted:it takes a significant investment to turn a refugee into a productive member of society, and that takes resources. taking every refugee from everywhere and putting them into idk denmark or whereever isn't actually going to solve anything you'd just suddenly be faced with lebanon 2: lebanon even worse Actually it doesn't, and this is a disgusting attitude and based on xenophobic myths. I worked in Nauru centre where Australia puts it's refugees, albeit I was adovacy and welfare. I also worked on mainland with them. It is much more expensive to process and ship them away rather then resettle them and integrate them into schooling systems and community. When integrated properly with respect, they get jobs and pay taxes and contribute to the community and society. This happened during the Vietnam war and Australia took Vietnamese refugees in and resettled them with permanent Visas. We have a really strong and thriving healthy Vietnamese community in Australia now. So please, consider this; it's the policies in the country around integration and refugee capacity building that dictates successful integration or creating ghettos, and it's racism/xenophobia that drives bad policy in that context. A global response and attitude change to refugees and asylum seekers is possible, and can be done responsibly without creating the issues that people fear and therefore refuse entry. Yes, it's not about just accepting people in. It's about taking responsibility and creating a thought out response plan and integration policy and services. It's cheaper than the alternative of keeping people out until we all crash in the ground. Australia spent $1 billion to process 1577 people on Manus island and Nauru. Plus the countless cost on the navy and providing vessels to turn back asylum seekers mid voyage to Indonesia. We also spent about 55.5 million to send 4 refugees from Nauru to Cambodia in an extremely corrupt deal. Cambodia has since pulled out and rescinded their agreement, but kept the money. The UN spends $157 million per year on refugees in South East Asia (in which these refugees in Nauru passed through in varying periods of time), and this is 1/5 of Australia''s budget in Nauru. So yeah, that's some perspective on one heavily used point to justify shutting down borders. I currently work with refugees in Iraq, and many of them come from Kobane. Many walked distances that were perilous and through ISIS controlled land. The conditions they live in aren't dignified and there is no future. They can't return home. It's not as easy as catching a bus. They've lost everything, and they have nothing. I'd in a heart beat jump on a boat to Europe then make the journey to the refugee camps. What wouldn't you do for your family? It's the safer and better option. It's a future when there is none here. Why shouldn't we be a global community rather than an insular and divided one? Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 19:01
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Lascivious Sloth posted:It is much more expensive to process and ship them away rather then resettle them and integrate them into schooling systems and community. When integrated properly with respect, they get jobs and pay taxes and contribute to the community and society. This happened during the Vietnam war and Australia took Vietnamese refugees in and resettled them with permanent Visas. We have a really strong and thriving healthy Vietnamese community in Australia now. Thanks for this post. Talking about integration doesn't always have to be some racist dogwhistle that some here have called it.
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Sep 3, 2015 19:19
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Actually it doesn't, and this is a disgusting attitude and based on xenophobic myths. I worked in Nauru centre where Australia puts it's refugees, albeit I was adovacy and welfare. I also worked on mainland with them. It is much more expensive to process and ship them away rather then resettle them and integrate them into schooling systems and community. When integrated properly with respect, they get jobs and pay taxes and contribute to the community and society. This happened during the Vietnam war and Australia took Vietnamese refugees in and resettled them with permanent Visas. We have a really strong and thriving healthy Vietnamese community in Australia now. I had to post this response to Facebook. This was a good run down.
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Sep 3, 2015 19:20
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My girlfriend came as a refugee when she was 17 years old. She did one year in school and then started working. I was a burden on the taxpayer for 18 years and then some more before I even started collecting my university grants. Let's not pretend this is about money.
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Sep 3, 2015 19:26
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Thank you for this excellent post.
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Sep 3, 2015 19:42
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BROWN MOSES I SUMMON THEEquote:Unverified: pics emerge showing Russian Yakovlev Pchela-1T drone & possibly Su-34 & Su-27s in #Idlib v @green_lemonnn     http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/462942/Russia-ISIS-Syria-fighter-jets
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Sep 4, 2015 00:07
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I would have to see some really convincing proof to believe this.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:23
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As far as money goes the problem lies With the welfare state. Without it refugees would either prosper and benefit the host country or be left to starve to death in the streets and therefore not be a burden. That`s what the US did and it worked. That would mean a more austere life for the natives but like others have said, solidarity without sacrifice is not solidarity at all. Europe did a lot of evil things to the developing world so why should we be spared the same pain, do we even any rigtht not to share it? With the rigth policies Europe could be leading the charge towards a free-market humanism that encompasses every single Homo Sapiens.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:25
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Upworthy put this up today, though it's actually about a year old. It's being picked up by Occupy Wall Street and all the various slacktivist groups. Given its sympathetic pairing of the Syrian conflict with global warming / water resource management as well as the recent stories of refugees pouring into Eastern Europe, I'd expect to see it plastered all over your Facebook walls shortly: http://www.upworthy.com/trying-to-follow-what-is-going-on-in-syria-and-why-this-comic-will-get-you-there-in-5-minutes?g=3 
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Sep 4, 2015 01:02
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So I don't know if its just some sort of media manipulation or what not, but it seems that the vast majority of these refugees are young to middle aged men. Everytime I've read about a boat being rescued, the numbers have been something like 800 men vs. 50 women/children. It just seems really bizarre that the sociological makeup of these groups of refugees is pretty much the inverse of what its been for pretty much every major war in history. Is ISIS just leaving all the young, abled-bodied men alive and roaming free and just killing off/enslaving all the women/children/elderly?Are these guys hoping to get well-paying jobs in Europe so they can send the money back to their families that are currently sitting ducks in the middle of an active war zone?. Because that means that the people running ISIS and Assad are incredibly loving stupid and don't understand how leaving a bunch of healthy and probably vengeful men running around could come back to bite them in the rear end and wow, there are going to be some serious riots when all these guys find out that whatever degrees/certificates they got in their home countries are for the most part worthless in Europe.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:19
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