Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Volkerball posted:

The US sounds on board with KSA sending troops to Syria.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-libya-usa-idUSKCN0VD2TB

"Bolstering local populations to prevent a reemergence of ISIS later." Might get used to hearing that talking point.

Yes this will improve matters.

KSA would get its rear end handed to it in Syria, which would likely escalate things even more. I hope this does not happen.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 15:13

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 23:32

Gmaz: Apr 3, 2011; New DLC for Aoe2 is out: Dynasties of India

Torrannor posted:

You know the refugee crisis in the Middle East and Europe? Last year, the UN ran out of money to feed the people in the refugee camps. They had to massively cut food rations, to a level that's barely enough to survive.

Also last year, the number of refugees fleeing to Europe incresed massively, for some strange reason that nobody could have forseen.

So the same people who can afford 1000s of euros to pay for smuggling were the same ones that were starving in refugee camps?

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:08

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Best Friends posted:

I dream of a day we stop having friendly relations with the KSA.

Don't worry, the day they extract their last drop of oil is the day everybody dumps them like a used kleenex.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:19

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/695313929925435393

https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/695311553948737536

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:20

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

Gmaz posted:

So the same people who can afford 1000s of euros to pay for smuggling were the same ones that were starving in refugee camps?

It may come as a surprise that even people with 1000 euros can be refugees.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:20

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Volkerball posted:

https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/695313929925435393

https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/695311553948737536

New World Order you say...

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:31

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

The multipolar world

# ? Feb 5, 2016 16:34

TildeATH: Oct 21, 2010; by Lowtax

Gmaz posted:

So the same people who can afford 1000s of euros to pay for smuggling were the same ones that were starving in refugee camps?

Pretend bombs are dropping on your house and your friends and relatives are dying. If you sold everything you had, how much money would you have?

Or, alternately, poo poo, if these people had 5000 euros, they should have just toughed it out in Syria--they should have even gone to that new resort!

# ? Feb 5, 2016 17:04

Freezer: Apr 20, 2001; The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot stay in the cradle forever.

15k people fleeing Aleppo reported at the Turkish border. I bet smugglers are thinking 'Payday!'.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:11

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Volkerball posted:

Yeah the next 5 years are set to be as fun as the last 5.

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt in the long term, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son, maybe you should look into finding a life abroad' that's how much people are quite sure things are going to poo poo a few years from now, terrifying.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:19

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Al-Saqr posted:

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son. maybe you should look into finding a life abroad', terrifying.

Where do you live?

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:20

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

Al-Saqr posted:

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt in the long term, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son, maybe you should look into finding a life abroad' that's how much people are quite sure things are going to poo poo a few years from now, terrifying.

stay safe man

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:23

MechanicalTomPetty: Oct 30, 2011; Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me

Kurtofan posted:

Where do you live?

Saudi Arabia I'm pretty sure.

To all the McDowells and MIGF's out there that want to burn the Middle East in nuclear fire or send every arab to concentration camps, keep in mind that there are actual innocent people down there as the presence of folks like Al-Saqr on this forum should make extraordinarily loving clear.

Edit: Theres some guys from Saudi Arabia attending my college right now. I live in Canada FWIW. I can't imagine what it would be like for them if poo poo hit the fan while they were abroad.

MechanicalTomPetty fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Feb 5, 2016

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:26

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Al-Saqr posted:

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt in the long term, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son, maybe you should look into finding a life abroad' that's how much people are quite sure things are going to poo poo a few years from now, terrifying.

Yeah and the oil market looking irreparably damaged as well. Not good. Hoping for the best for you, however all this works out.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:30

ThingOne: Jul 30, 2011; Would you like some tofu?

Gmaz posted:

So the same people who can afford 1000s of euros to pay for smuggling were the same ones that were starving in refugee camps?

It doesn't matter how much money you have when there's no food at all.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 18:51

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Gmaz posted:

So the same people who can afford 1000s of euros to pay for smuggling were the same ones that were starving in refugee camps?

Also, to add to everyone else telling you how dumb you are, most refugees and displaced people walked to or drove to the camp, and are in a camp inside their country or nearby across a bordering nation, and are not in fact paying any people smugglers nor can afford to. Most refugees have no money and are starving. But for the refugees who managed to pay people smugglers to escape conflict and escape the conditions of camps (which are inhumane), many sell everything they have or take on huge loans that they will try to pay back in future.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:08

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

TildeATH posted:

Pretend bombs are dropping on your house and your friends and relatives are dying. If you sold everything you had, how much money would you have?

Or, alternately, poo poo, if these people had 5000 euros, they should have just toughed it out in Syria--they should have even gone to that new resort!

I think its important to ask why bombs are falling around you. For instance, if you live beneath an ISIL commander, then it is your obligation to eliminate that target before that target must be eliminated in a method which produces collateral damage. If everyone in the region understood and followed through on this obligation, there would be no more ISIL.

Lascivious Sloth posted:

Also, to add to everyone else telling you how dumb you are, most refugees and displaced people walked to or drove to the camp, and are in a camp inside their country or nearby across a bordering nation, and are not in fact paying any people smugglers nor can afford to. Most refugees have no money and are starving. But for the refugees who managed to pay people smugglers to escape conflict and escape the conditions of camps (which are inhumane), many sell everything they have or take on huge loans that they will try to pay back in future.

Perhaps, rather than going to smugglers, that money should be spent to improve the infrastructure of the camps and organize civil camp society.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:26

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

CeeJee posted:

Because then...... what exactly would happen ? Boots on the ground marching in to be greeted by cheering crowds in Jedda ? A revolution by democratic forces ? Total economic collapse of KSA ?

I think it would be less of an invasion/regime change type deal and more of we no longer tolerate them propping up militant Wahhabist groups abroad thing, which I'm all on board for.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:38

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

The future of Arabia looks very dark right now. The ruling family is going to try to extract as much wealth as they can, severing the traditional patronage system through privatization, and simultaneously they're entangling themselves in countless conflicts and inflaming minority tensions. The system can't last and I'm not sure if there are the institutions outside royal control to enable something better if/when the ruling family loses power.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:38

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Best Friends posted:

The future of Arabia looks very dark right now. The ruling family is going to try to extract as much wealth as they can, severing the traditional patronage system through privatization, and simultaneously they're entangling themselves in countless conflicts and inflaming minority tensions. The system can't last and I'm not sure if there are the institutions outside royal control to enable something better if/when the ruling family loses power.

You write this as if KSA monarchy has alternatives. What alternatives are there which do not produce the same results, only more rapidly?

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:42

Thump!: Nov 25, 2007; Look, fat, here's the fact, Kulak!

Al-Saqr posted:

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt in the long term, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son, maybe you should look into finding a life abroad' that's how much people are quite sure things are going to poo poo a few years from now, terrifying.

poo poo man, stay safe

For as much as everyone shits on KSA here, it's directed towards the House of Saud and not really the poor folk living under their rule.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:47

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Al-Saqr posted:

An better still, My neck of the woods is about to be part of the fun, two direct interventions, country going bankrupt in the long term, taxes about to be imposed, this is going to be faaaantastic.

I have recently started hearing from people who have had their parents walk up to them and tell them point blank, 'Son, maybe you should look into finding a life abroad' that's how much people are quite sure things are going to poo poo a few years from now, terrifying.

Taxes should have been imposed long ago. Taxes are fundamental for financing the development of sustainable secular state institutions. Unfortunately, this is where the prohibition on alcohol has most hindered development in the arab world: America's growth as a nation was financed by taxation on alcohol.

Perhaps your nation should end prohibition and heavily tax alcohol, Al Saqr, before you begin to complain about taxes.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 19:56

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

My Imaginary GF posted:

Perhaps your nation should end prohibition and heavily tax , Al Saqr, before you begin to complain about taxes.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 20:41

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

There have been a few recent reports about the horrible state of the Afghan National Army.

Stretched by its fight against Taliban, Afghan army raises recruitment age

quote:

The Afghan army, struggling to defeat a resilient Taliban, has begun enlisting men as old as 40 to replenish a force thinned by casualties, defections and attrition.

The decision to raise the age limit for recruits to 40 from 35 was quietly made last month in response to pressure from the U.S.-led coalition, said Brig. Gen. Dawlat Waziri, chief spokesman for the Afghan Defense Ministry.

�There was concern among our international friends, and also among Afghans, that we would not be able fulfill recruitment targets that we have for the new year,� Waziri said.
...
In a report to Congress last week, John F. Sopko, the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction, said that Afghan forces control only 70 percent of the country and that the Taliban now controls more territory than at any point since 2001, when it was ousted from power in Kabul after five years of brutal rule.

Many analysts believe the Afghan army suffered a record number of casualties last year, although it has not released specific figures. Col. Michael T. Lawhorn, director of public affairs for the U.S.-led coalition, said Afghan forces suffered a 28 percent increase in casualties in 2015.
...
The Afghan army has a targeted strength of 195,000 soldiers, but it has consistently failed to meet its recruitment goals. In his report to Congress, Sopko said the force currently claims about 170,000 soldiers. But that figure may be inflated, he cautioned.

Afghan forces struggle as ranks thinned by 'ghost' soldiers

quote:

Afghan forces are struggling to man the front lines against a resurgent Taliban, in part because of untold numbers of "ghost" troops who are paid salaries but only exist on paper.
...
[Karim Atal, head of Helmand's provincial council] estimates that some 40 percent of registered forces don't exist, and says the lack of manpower has helped the Taliban seize 65 percent of the province -- Afghanistan's largest -- and threaten the provincial capital, Lashkar Gah. Those men who do serve face even greater danger because of the no-shows. In the last three months alone, some 700 police have been killed and 500 wounded, he said.

The province's former deputy police chief, Pacha Gul Bakhtiar, said Helmand has 31,000 police on the registers, "but in reality it is nowhere near that."
...
"No one knows the exact numbers of the Afghan National Defense Forces," an Afghan official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to brief media on the topic. He said the best internal estimates put the number at around 120,000, less than a third of what's needed to secure the country.

In 2009 Obama announced an effort to increase the size of the Afghan National Army to 260,000 men. Two studies released in 2009 and 2011 respectively estimate attrition at 32-42% per year, making increasing the size of the army beyond it's current strength essentially impossible due to limits on how fast new soldiers can be trained.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 20:45

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Thump! posted:

poo poo man, stay safe

For as much as everyone shits on KSA here, it's directed towards the House of Saud and not really the poor folk living under their rule.

I also direct it to the monied elite that work closely with the ruling family, while using slave labour for the dirty work.

But no, that doesn't apply to everyone of course.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 20:48

CeeJee: Dec 4, 2001; Oven Wrangler

Lustful Man Hugs posted:

I think it would be less of an invasion/regime change type deal and more of we no longer tolerate them propping up militant Wahhabist groups abroad thing, which I'm all on board for.

So how so you stop them ? Someone will still buy Saudi oil and fill the pockets of the ones bankrolling the radicals worldwide.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 20:55

TildeATH: Oct 21, 2010; by Lowtax

My Imaginary GF posted:

I think its important to ask why bombs are falling around you. For instance, if you live beneath an ISIL commander, then it is your obligation to eliminate that target before that target must be eliminated in a method which produces collateral damage. If everyone in the region understood and followed through on this obligation, there would be no more ISIL.

Is this your way of telling us that you're going to murder Liberal_Leet?

# ? Feb 5, 2016 20:57

Gmaz: Apr 3, 2011; New DLC for Aoe2 is out: Dynasties of India

Lascivious Sloth posted:

Also, to add to everyone else telling you how dumb you are

Why are you using such language and characterisation when you don't even know me, I asked an honest question and all this anger comes out of you (and other posters with their "witty" cynicism). Like I don't even understand this state of mind. Why such frustration?

quote:

...most refugees and displaced people walked to or drove to the camp, and are in a camp inside their country or nearby across a bordering nation, and are not in fact paying any people smugglers nor can afford to. Most refugees have no money and are starving. But for the refugees who managed to pay people smugglers to escape conflict and escape the conditions of camps (which are inhumane), many sell everything they have or take on huge loans that they will try to pay back in future.

That was my point, that the people starving in camps aren't the ones moving to Europe cause they can't afford to do it. They aren't even well off enough to pay the smuggling route. It wasn't an indictment of the migration to Europe or of the people who escaped the warzone.

P.S. during the early 90's my family hosted our refugee relatives and living in a country that was devastated by war and had a lot of refugees, I am very well acquainted with what it is like for those people and I have a quite strong emotional connection with what they are going through. So maybe next time before you get smug and judgmental, think about how people on the other side of the monitor aren't some horrible, evil caricatures that you imagine them to be.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 21:51

54.4 crowns: Apr 7, 2011; To think before you speak is like wiping your arse before you shit.

My Imaginary GF posted:

I think its important to ask why bombs are falling around you. For instance, if you live beneath an ISIL commander, then it is your obligation to eliminate that target before that target must be eliminated in a method which produces collateral damage. If everyone in the region understood and followed through on this obligation, there would be no more ISIL.

Perhaps, rather than going to smugglers, that money should be spent to improve the infrastructure of the camps and organize civil camp society.

If only all individuals had your sense of civic duty.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 22:12

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

I'm fine with the Saudis entering the meat grinder that is Syria.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 22:39

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

The X-man cometh posted:

I'm fine with the Saudis entering the meat grinder that is Syria.

me too. i am fine with the KSA, iran and russia pissing away lives over the wellbeing/destruction of some thin headed prick.

# ? Feb 5, 2016 23:13

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

My Imaginary GF posted:

Perhaps, rather than going to smugglers, that money should be spent to improve the infrastructure of the camps and organize civil camp society.

Perhaps you've never been in a refugee camp or experienced extreme poverty and harship.. perhaps you're a giant piece of poo poo. perhaps..

# ? Feb 5, 2016 23:40

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

Gmaz posted:

Why are you using such language and characterisation when you don't even know me, I asked an honest question and all this anger comes out of you (and other posters with their "witty" cynicism). Like I don't even understand this state of mind. Why such frustration?

That was my point, that the people starving in camps aren't the ones moving to Europe cause they can't afford to do it. They aren't even well off enough to pay the smuggling route. It wasn't an indictment of the migration to Europe or of the people who escaped the warzone.

P.S. during the early 90's my family hosted our refugee relatives and living in a country that was devastated by war and had a lot of refugees, I am very well acquainted with what it is like for those people and I have a quite strong emotional connection with what they are going through. So maybe next time before you get smug and judgmental, think about how people on the other side of the monitor aren't some horrible, evil caricatures that you imagine them to be.

Then you are completely terrible at expressing yourself because that original post sounded dog whistle as gently caress.

# ? Feb 6, 2016 00:22

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

CeeJee posted:

So how so you stop them ? Someone will still buy Saudi oil and fill the pockets of the ones bankrolling the radicals worldwide.

Sorry, I wasn't saying this was an immediately plausible state of affairs. I'm saying that it's far more of a plausible hope in the medium/long term than some country invading and overthrowing the government.

# ? Feb 6, 2016 00:44

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

I think one of the stipulations of the Saudis getting involved on the ground in Syria is they won't do it without western troops also involved there. I think we'll know for sure when the Saudis meet with Defense Secretary Carter next week. But if that is indeed the case then the Saudis are going to be disappointed and we can forget about them going into Syria.

# ? Feb 6, 2016 01:53

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Per this report, Saudi is assembling somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 soldiers for a Syria operation. That's uh, sustainable on its own to say the least.

http://arabic.cnn.com/world/2016/02/06/saudi-led-multinational-anti-isis-training-excercises

Volkerball fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Feb 6, 2016

# ? Feb 6, 2016 11:28

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

The Guardian Council reversed their ruling on somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25% of candidates for the Iranian parliament who were previously disqualified. No word on how many reformists were allowed back in, or whether they will make a similar ruling for the Assembly of Experts candidates.

Volkerball fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Feb 6, 2016

# ? Feb 6, 2016 11:33

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Volkerball posted:

Per this report, Saudi is assembling somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 soldiers for a Syria operation. That's uh, sustainable on its own to say the least.

http://arabic.cnn.com/world/2016/02/06/saudi-led-multinational-anti-isis-training-excercises

# ? Feb 6, 2016 12:01

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Who'd they be sending them in against? Assad? Are we looking at a legit ground war between Saudi Arabia and Iran here?

# ? Feb 6, 2016 13:11

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 23:32

Pimpmust: Oct 1, 2008

I was scrolling through the ualivemap and got to this 4 hour old news:
#Turkey closes Bab al-Salama gates to Reliefs go inside #Aleppo until "further notice",unknown reason #Syria

Anything more on that?

If the latest escalation is really pushing Turkey, SA and Qatar to intervene more directly, these times are about to get a whole lot more "interesting". It's starting to get real obvious that no amount of TOW missiles are gonna make up the difference in power that hundreds of air strikes per day grants the regime (now if either Russia or SA can really afford to keep this up is awhole 'nother keg).

# ? Feb 6, 2016 13:27

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