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EskimoFreeState posted:It's really a bummer that they have smuggled Chinese cell phones, but (if I'm reading this correctly) have to live/be within 10 km of the border to communicate with anyone. I assume that if you live farther south and the government keeps seeing you commute 200 miles out of your way twice a week, they're gonna get suspicious. After reading this and the article about the meshnets - It would be interesting to see something like the cellular or satellite phone developed as the modern day "liberator pistol", air dropped in to propagate information. It really has been the most powerful weapon in the recent uprisings. Once the information genie is out of the bottle you can't put it back in. Also, the fact that drat near everyone has a video camera in their pocket these days is going already proving to be detrimental to dictators. Just imagine how much damning evidence of war crimes is going to come to light once CQ goes away.
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Feb 25, 2011 07:51
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If you would like to see a really good documentary on N. Korea, I advise watching 'Kimjongilia' (available on Netflix streaming). Sad thing is their closest 'friend' (China) only props up and defends their government due to the fact when they do collapse, there will be a humongous humanitarian effort that will need to be done and they don't want to deal with it. There is also the 'Vice Guide to Travel' to show how insane it is inside of N.K.
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Feb 25, 2011 07:53
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Patter Song posted:That is a gross exaggeration and twisting of the facts of what 1950s Iran was like.
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Feb 25, 2011 07:56
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Patter Song posted:That is a gross exaggeration and twisting of the facts of what 1950s Iran was like. I think he means it was a newly formed democracy that showed promise, especially with regards to raising the standard of living once they nationalized their oil. But the embargo by the US/UK was pretty bad for them and negated that. Samurai Sanders posted:Would it be an exaggeration to say that the 50-70s in Iran were better than now, and that the CIA engineered the transition between then and now? Don't know about being better, since they basically traded the Shah for the Ayatollah. The Shah was pretty brutal, crushing any opposition and using SAVAK to keep the people in line, and keeping them pretty poor. Under the Ayatollah Iran became a pariah, and the Revolutionary Guard isn't looked upon very fondly. Their economy isn't doing to well either. In the end, I guess they traded some liberties for others, but whether you lived under the Shah or the Ayatollah you were kinda screwed. At least under Mossadegh they had a chance of deciding their own fate and creating a better life. And they didn't risk being jailed for voicing opposition either. Narmi fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 08:08
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BIG HORNY COW posted:Would be pretty interesting but yeah I'd call bullshit on this one. No way has news of whats happening in the middle east propagated that well through the DPRK. I just read a news report that South Korea has been dropping leaflets over North Korea about the revolutions in the middle east.
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Feb 25, 2011 08:34
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Mr Plow posted:I just read a news report that South Korea has been dropping leaflets over North Korea about the revolutions in the middle east. http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE71O0T020110225 This is pretty drat cool 
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Feb 25, 2011 09:19
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Narmi posted:I think he means it was a newly formed democracy that showed promise, especially with regards to raising the standard of living once they nationalized their oil. But the embargo by the US/UK was pretty bad for them and negated that. As long as Muhammad Reza Shah was around (even as constitutional monarch), he was fully ready to stick his nose into politics and interfere in pretty dramatic fashion. I mean, he had his father's example! It's not really worth too much speculation, but he had the motive and means to pounce the second Mossadegh or his successors started faltering, and might well have launched a coup of his own at a later date even without the CIA. Even without that (and assuming that, if Muhammad Reza Shah didn't have the CIA backing, he doesn't attempt the self-coup), he had been in the habit of sticking his beak into the affairs of the elected government anyway throughout the 1940s (though willing to defer when necessary, like during the handling of the Azerbaijan crisis, when he was willing to let his PM Qavam manage the situation). Iranian constitutional monarchy pre-1953 was not like, say, the British monarchy: Reza still had a good deal of real power and influence. There's also this bizarre notion that Mossadegh and his oil-nationalizing politics of the 1950s would remain the main issue. Saying something like "let's change this event in 1953 and see what's different in 2011" is profoundly ahistorical thinking. It assumes things like that Mossadegh's faction remains popular for 58 years(!), that the Pahlavis are subdued and successfully forced to remain constitutional monarchs, and doesn't take into account what a changed Iranian society might look like as a result. Perhaps an Ayatollah named Khoemeini is never chased into exile due to the repression not happening, campaigns for Majils on his innovative platform of "Guardianship of the Jurist," and eventually is elected PM in 1986 after the crash in oil prices sends Iran into a catastrophic recession? Perhaps without the revolutionary fervor, the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein overwhelms a lackluster Iranian army? You can't just say "If the CIA hadn't pulled the 1953 coup, Iran would be fine today."
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Feb 25, 2011 09:33
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On that "Craziest Quotes" page from Time:Gaddafi posted:On Somali Pirates Yeah, that's some crazy talk, all right. 
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Feb 25, 2011 09:44
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Poke posted:Last week a gallon of regular unleaded was $2.99 at the Shell gas station in front of my house. Now it's $3.30. What the gently caress? Is Libyan oil that important to the rest of the world? Here in Norway we have around $2,4 pr. litre. A litre is 0,26 gallons. So stop complaining about fuel prizes. You are paying way to little already for it. Think about it. We _will_ run out of oil in this century. At least it sure looks like it. The simplest solution for the consumtion to decrease is to increase prizes. And to avoid buying SUV's... But back to Libya: Sure looks like a showdown in Tripoli is upcoming. I'm nervous...
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Feb 25, 2011 09:45
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Patter Song posted:That is a gross exaggeration and twisting of the facts of what 1950s Iran was like. Because things were so much better after a democratically elected government were overthrown by the CIA and a murdering dictator was put in his place.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:45
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After denial and anger, it seems the Gaddifi regime has entered the next stage of grief, bargaining:quote:There are reports doing the rounds on the internet of "texts being sent in Libya, purportedly by the government, saying: [However, its veracity has not been confirmed yet] quote:Libyan state television reports Libyan families will receive 500 dinars each, while wages for some public workers could increase by 150pc.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:48
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Jut posted:Because things were so much better after a democratically elected government were overthrown by the CIA and a murdering dictator was put in his place. That's not what I said and you know it. What I'm saying is that counterfactual exercises like "What if Operation Ajax never happened" are completely worthless. Could Iran have been better? Absolutely. Could it have been worse? Absolutely. There is no way of tracking what different reality would've emerged in the 58 years from that point.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:50
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Today's Live Blogs: Guardian AJE Guardian Round up: quote:• International efforts to respond to the Libyan crisis are gathering pace under US leadership. On Thursday a still defiant Muammar Gaddafi launched counterattacks to defend Tripoli against the popular uprising now consolidating its hold on the liberated east of the country. More on the situation in Korea as well: quote:The events in the middle east are having far-reaching repercussions it seems, with South Korea using the revolutions in an apparent attempt to goad North Koreans into similar protests.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:50
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Narmi posted:
Things went poo poo after 1953, the Shah was worse the the current regime. The democratically elected govt in place previously was making some great social progress, but nationalising the oil industry upset a few too many people abroad. Patter Song posted:That's not what I said and you know it. What I'm saying is that counterfactual exercises like "What if Operation Ajax never happened" are completely worthless. Could Iran have been better? Absolutely. Could it have been worse? Absolutely. There is no way of tracking what different reality would've emerged in the 58 years from that point. It was never given a chance to work. The reforms put in place before 1953 benefited the people, and removed power from the Shah. After the coup, the Shah became even more violent and oppressive, leading directly to the causes of the Iranian revolution. At the end of the day, it was a democratically elected government, chosen by the people of Iran, a choice denied to them by greed and cold war paranoia. Jut fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 09:51
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Finnish newspaper is reporting Gaddafi says someone put halluciogenes in the milk that young people drink (wtf), thus causing the riots. In Finnish. There is the video of the speech on the bottom of the article (CNN) Sorry if this was posted earlier
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Feb 25, 2011 09:55
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Jut posted:Things went poo poo after 1953, the Shah was worse the the current regime. The democratically elected govt in place previously was making some great social progress, but nationalising the oil industry upset a few too many people abroad. You keep acting like the Shah wasn't there as an extremely influential, if constitutionally limited, monarch prior to Operation Ajax, or that his father hadn't successfully overthrown Iran's first constitutional monarchy in the 1910s and oversaw over two decades of brutal reign before he was forced to abdicate by the Allies in World War 2. Muhammad Reza Shah had the precedent and the influence to organize his own coup, Ajax or no. Assuming he wouldn't have seized power from the democratic government without CIA backing is a huge leap, as is assuming that Mossadegh's successors would keep up his policies. Why do you turn Iran's history into a switch around Operation Ajax, as if the CIA coup is the fundamental decisive moment of Iranian history detached from everything that had happened since the end of the Qajar dynasty?
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Feb 25, 2011 09:56
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The revolution will be over by the time the West finishes thinking about maybe possibly doing something like a No Fly Zone. And hundreds, if not thousands more Libyans will die in the interim.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:56
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Sosiz posted:Finnish newspaper is reporting Gaddafi says someone put halluciogenes in the milk that young people drink (wtf), thus causing the riots. I think he specifically said Osama Bin Laden was putting hallucinogenic drugs into the young people's Nescafe. His speech yesterday was his maddest yet.
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Feb 25, 2011 09:57
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Patter Song posted:You keep acting like the Shah wasn't there as an extremely influential, if constitutionally limited, monarch prior to Operation Ajax, or that his father hadn't successfully overthrown Iran's first constitutional monarchy in the 1910s and oversaw over two decades of brutal reign before he was forced to abdicate by the Allies in World War 2. Muhammad Reza Shah had the precedent and the influence to organize his own coup, Ajax or no. Assuming he wouldn't have seized power from the democratic government without CIA backing is a huge leap, as is assuming that Mossadegh's successors would keep up his policies. Now who's the one doing the "what ifs?". "What if the Shah was going to organise his own coup" etc... At the end of the day, he didn't organise his own coup, the CIA did it for him, and the reforms that the Shah's father but in place (before he went batshit insane like most dictators) which allowed a democratically elected civilian government, went out the window. When the Shah took over, all those reforms were crushed, and the technocrats that previously held major influence in government were swept to one side. I can't actually believe you would try to defend the US overthrowing a democratically elected government. Brown Moses posted:I think he specifically said Osama Bin Laden was putting hallucinogenic drugs into the young people's Nescafe. His speech yesterday was his maddest yet. Osama's Bin Lacin people's coffee with revolution drugs! (hopefully Alex Jones hasn't got word of this yet, he'll be all over it like a rash)
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Feb 25, 2011 10:11
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This story from Tripoli gives you a flavour of what's going on in the city at the moment. Also a reminder that today is Friday prayers across the Arab world, and massive protests are expected in many countries. Probably the most significant will be Yemen and Bahrain.
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Feb 25, 2011 10:15
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Jut posted:Osama's Bin Lacin people's coffee with revolution drugs! (hopefully Alex Jones hasn't got word of this yet, he'll be all over it like a rash)
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Feb 25, 2011 10:27
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Few bits from Twitter Libya's former justice minister: Gaddafi has biological weapons and won't hesitate to use them Al Jazeera English: Germany calls for travel ban on Gaddafi family & a seizure of overseas assets Sky News reports that the UK government allegedly paid Libyan officials to facilitate the evacuation of British citizens. Reports from #Libya: #UK to freeze all #Gaddafi assets in #London valued at more than 32 billion dollars. Al Jazeera Arabic has learned that intensive discussions are under way between defected Libyan political leaders, including ambassadors and ministers who have stepped down, to form a political body to lead the country. (Regarding the UNHRC meeting) Libya is absent from meeting. Diplomats did not show up UN rights chief decries Gaddafi regime's 'callous disregard' Nato Secretary General Rasmussen says alliance ready to act as 'enabler' in any action member states take on #Libya, from AFP
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Feb 25, 2011 10:42
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Also there's lots of chatter about Friday being the day Mubarak and Ben Ali fell, so the rebels are feeling highly motivated today. It wouldn't suprise me if we saw some major events today, especially as a large protest is planned in Tripoli today.
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Feb 25, 2011 10:45
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So what happens to all of these assets that are seized and frozen after Gheddafi is eventually captured/killed?
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Feb 25, 2011 10:46
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Jut posted:Now who's the one doing the "what ifs?". "What if the Shah was going to organise his own coup" etc... What I am doing is pointing out to you that your contention that everything would've continued on the course it was had Ajax not occurred isn't necessarily based in reality, considering the multitude of different directions things might have happened differently had said event not taken place. quote:I can't actually believe you would try to defend the US overthrowing a democratically elected government. I am not doing so. I am arguing against using history as propaganda and use of counterfactuals (Iran would've been democratic in 2011 had there not been the coup against Mossadegh in 1953) in political argument. Counterfacutals are antihistorical poison, especially when used in politics. I'm deeply opposed to people taking events completely out of context and using them for their narrative. Does 1953 belong in any description of the course of events that led to the Iranian Revolution? Of course it does. Is it the end-all, be-all event of 20th century Iran? Not by a long shot, and divorcing it of its Iranian context, either by pairing it with the coup in Guatemala in the category of "US sponsored 1950s coups or pairing it with the Suez Crisis as an example of British fears that their declining colonial influence meant insecurity regarding their oil supply are useful when examining those issues, but not so much when it comes to studying Iran. If you look at Reza Khan (later Reza Shah Pahlavi, the shah's father) and the way he subverted and seized control of the weak constitutionalist regime and deposed the last, weak Qajar, you have a model for a coup against Iranian democracy installing a brutal, authoritarian shah, and an example created by Muhammad Reza's father, no less. Muhammad Reza, installed by the British and Russians anyway after his father's forced abdication, was a thorough believer in monarchy and only reluctantly accepted constitutional rule anyway. He had his father's example in overthrowing democratically elected governments. Treating an Iran with him around as a constitutional monarch as an emerging democracy would be like treating Second Republic France with Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte as a mostly ceremonial president like an emerging democracy. EDIT: Long story short, if you say, "The 1953 coup was a bad thing" and want to talk about why, that's a statement I will agree with and a discussion I will have. If you say "if the 1953 coup hadn't happened, Iran would be X," then, in my view, you're committing a crime against history for the sake of propaganda. Patter Song fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 10:49
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Crackpipe posted:The revolution will be over by the time the West finishes thinking about maybe possibly doing something like a No Fly Zone. And hundreds, if not thousands more Libyans will die in the interim. The most interesting things about these revolutions to me is that the people don't seem the least bit concerned about the USA or the EU or whomever. As it should be.
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Feb 25, 2011 10:51
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I think the big problem for the EU and US is so many of their citizens are still trapped in Tripoli and other parts of Libya. There's a real risk that Gaddafi will take his anger at any EU and US action out on those people still trapped in the country. He's already slaughtering his own people, so it wouldn't be a huge leap to imagine a unit of mercenaries slaughtering people at Tripoli airport.
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Feb 25, 2011 10:54
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Probably Hates You posted:So what happens to all of these assets that are seized and frozen after Gheddafi is eventually captured/killed? It's a gray area, but, and I've brought this up before during the Egypt protests, that, following what happened with Ceausescu's estate following his deposing and execution, guys like Mubarak and Qaddaffi are so entwined with the state that anything owned by the state is technically their property. The reverse of this is also true. Once deposed, if Qaddaffi or any of his family try to claim they own said seized assets, they may (likely will) be asked for receipts of ownership. Since they fled a country and said documents may have been burned, or, more likely, the items were purchased under expense accounts that ultimately go to the national treasury, the assets default to the state. The same state that just deposed them.
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Feb 25, 2011 11:01
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Petey posted:No, it's speculators. This is from a couple of pages ago, but this system seems like it would be incredibly easy to game and exploit. Am I missing something here?
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Feb 25, 2011 11:06
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Young Freud posted:It's a gray area, but, and I've brought this up before during the Egypt protests, that, following what happened with Ceausescu's estate following his deposing and execution, guys like Mubarak and Qaddaffi are so entwined with the state that anything owned by the state is technically their property. The reverse of this is also true. Well thats good. My main concern was that all these governments that are seizing their assets might just take them in the long run. It's good to hear that the property and financials will probably go back to Libya.
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Feb 25, 2011 11:13
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More resigniationsquote:Meanwhile, Libya's attorney general, Abdel-Rahman Al-Abbar, also announced his resignation in a video posted on the video- sharing site, Youtube. From Twitter: quote:Al Jazeera: Saeed Awad Rashwan, CEO National Commercial Bank of #Libya joins the Feb 17th youth revolutionaries.
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Feb 25, 2011 11:14
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Patter Song posted:If you look at Reza Khan (later Reza Shah Pahlavi, the shah's father) and the way he subverted and seized control of the weak constitutionalist regime and deposed the last, weak Qajar, you have a model for a coup against Iranian democracy installing a brutal, authoritarian shah, and an example created by Muhammad Reza's father, no less. Muhammad Reza, installed by the British and Russians anyway after his father's forced abdication, was a thorough believer in monarchy and only reluctantly accepted constitutional rule anyway. He had his father's example in overthrowing democratically elected governments. Treating an Iran with him around as a constitutional monarch as an emerging democracy would be like treating Second Republic France with Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte as a mostly ceremonial president like an emerging democracy. I wholeheartedly agree with everything else in your post. I would point out, however, that Reza Shah's coup in 1921 and his election - yes, election - to Shah by the Constituent Assembly in 1925 were broadly popular, and that he enjoyed wide support among the populace and nationalist intelligentsia until the very late 20s/early 30s. The post-Constitutional Revolution governmental structure had been discredited (its merits as a democratic system aside) in the 1911 - 1920 period by a combination of corruption, weak and unstable governments (there were twenty governments in a nine year period), a collapse of central authority and the rise of autonomous movements in Azerbaijan and Gilan, the fact that part of WWI was fought in Iran (despite it being "neutral"), and a very broad dislike of the Qajar dynasty. All Reza Shah did, perversely, was give people what they wanted: peace and order. There's an argument that's made that Muhammad Reza was so afraid of a return to the period of chaos that he went over the top in the other direction and brought about his own downfall. Again, everything else you posted is spot on. Edit: I was going to also post the resignation of al-Abbar, but I was beaten to it.
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Feb 25, 2011 11:18
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Patter Song posted:*snip* Would you not agree that the actions of 1953 contributed to a lot of the anti-American sentiment post revolution, which in turn contributed towards America's involvement with the Iran-Iraq war, leading to today's Iran which is about as Anti-American as you get?
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Feb 25, 2011 11:32
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Few bits from Twitter NEW: A Libyan pilot on Friday resorted to Egypt as he rejected to boy orders to bomb Libyan protesters. Al Jazeera English: Germany calls for travel ban on Gaddafi family & a seizure of overseas assets Libya's embassy in Paris occupied by protesters again Gaddafi ! French Police refused to let people bring food for them. AFP > EU nations are preparing to participate in a possible no-fly zone over Libya to prevent Col Gaddafi from bombing protesters. Witnesses tell AJE that town of Zuwarah has been abandoned by security forces and is in hands of protesters Meanwhile in Tripoli, things are getting ugly. Seems like Ghaddafi's last stand
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Feb 25, 2011 12:00
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I wonder how many of the resignations are because opening fire on your own civilians is a line they aren't willing to cross and how many of them are because they just don't want to be on the wrong side of the line when Gaddafi finally falls. (And how many are both, when it comes to that.)
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Feb 25, 2011 12:01
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At this moment I think anyone who won't be hanged for war crimes and crimes agaisnt humanity are probably seriously considering joining the protesters. Couple of bits from AJE quote:Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, one of the Libyan leader's sons, has reportedly told CNN-Turk that his family plans to live and die in Libya. The excerpt appeared online ahead of the full broadcast at 11GMT on Friday. I certaintly hope so. quote:Al Jazeera Arabic has an exclusive with the man accused by the Libyan government of leading an Islamist emirate in Derna, Libya. The man, Abdul Hakeem Al Hasadi, denied the accusations and said he is a former political prisoner.
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Feb 25, 2011 12:02
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Steve Yun posted:Charles Bronson? I was going to cast Benicio Del Toro http://www.thedailyshow.com/
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Feb 25, 2011 12:15
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Another military defection:quote:A Palestinian pilot, presumably serving in the Libyan armed forces, has landed his helicopter in Misrata, east of Tripoli, and defected to the protesters, private newspaper Libya al-Yawm reports on its website. The protesters must have access to quite a bit of heavy military equipment now, I noticed yesterday that the military unit that defected in Benghazi included a helicopter division, and assuming their equipment is still in one piece that would be extremely useful in any situation. Also, this: quote:Army and police in the eastern city of Ajdabiya say they have withdrawn from their barracks and joined the protesters, al-Jazeera reports.
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Feb 25, 2011 12:25
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Any other sources on this? It's an Iranian site, which is why I'm a bit skeptical, but they they are reporting that Saif (Gaddafi's youngest son) has joined the protesters: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/166900.htmlquote:According to the reports, Saif al-Arab, Gaddafi's youngest son, who was sent by his father to cooperate with Libyan security forces in the massive crackdown on pro-democracy protesters joined forces with the demonstrators in the eastern city of Benghazi on Thursday.
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Feb 25, 2011 12:37
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I've not heard of it from any other source, and Press TV isn't a very reliable source of information. Bit of news from Tripoli: quote:Security forces are deployed around mosques in the Libyan capital, Tripoli, fearing protests when Friday prayers end shortly, Al Jazeera Arabic reports. Things are kicking off in Iraq too: quote:Iraqi's "Day of Rage" appears to be gathering pace with large scale demonstrations in towns and cities across the country and reports that the security forces have killed at least five people.
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Feb 25, 2011 12:43
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