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pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Xandu posted:

I can't stand Joshua Landis, but there's a good guest post by an American in Damascus on his website.
http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/?p=9986

I was going to post this in the D&D thread. Out of curiosity, what don't you like about Landis? I've really enjoyed his blog lately, and he's had some great appearances on NPR/PRI.

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pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Xandu posted:

Hmm, not sure how to put this.

Basically he's spent the past 10 years positioning himself as the go to guy for Syrian policy in the US, but he's done so by getting far too close to the Syrian regime for a supposedly neutral academic. I listened to an NPR interview a few weeks ago, for instance, and he's like "before I got on, I was just advising a Syrian MP on their new counterterrorism law." This after hundreds of protesters have already died and he's still offering his advice. He's also very very guilty of propagating the meme that Bashar al-Assad is a tragic reformer stuck in a corrupt regime. He wrote an article in Time last month that started off by saying something like "The brutal response to the protests in Dara'a has shocked even Bashar al-Assad."


Interesting. I had no idea about any of that stuff, I've only been following Landis since late March. That's pretty disgusting that he's advising Syria about CT stuff, especially when they're claiming to be waging a CT campaign in their own country. Ye gods.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Never. It's an underdeveloped country with no significant resources full of heavily armed crazy people. The West learned that lesson in Somalia.

Given how heavily armed the Yemeni populace is, I'm amazed the street protests didn't turn into urban conflict sooner. Tribal violence notwithstanding, the people who have held the sit-in at Sana'a University deserve some sort of medal for restraint even after all those sniper attacks.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Cable Guy posted:

Not a snowflake's in hell. We saw yesterday the "quality" of his posts... why is he still around? Brown Moses, you shouldn't need to bother chasing HIS sources, and you certainly shouldn't need to ask him to consider what he's said AFTER he's opened his mouth.

Possibly the most unfortunate typo in this thread so far.
:ughh:
[/quote]

Well, bear in mind that SA's resident schizophrenic Caro Ascendant (nee Caro) is currently in Libya, masquerading as some sort of hybrid war tourist and pseudo-combat medic. Reporting that troops are killing Libyan babies with flamethrowers certainly wouldn't be his most outlandish claim.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Al-Jazeera English is reporting that Saleh has left Yemen for medical attention in Saudi Arabia, and the Saudi government has negotiated a one-week ceasefire between tribal forces and Saleh's loyalists. Let's see how long this lasts.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

A lot of people on Twitter are breathless over Saleh's move to Saudi Arabia and his transfer of power to his VP, but at the same time, what exactly has changed? If his family is still there, and in control of the security forces, it doesn't seem like everyone's just going to pack it up and go home...

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Chortles posted:


Brown Moses, what's "Kohl" in the case of this translation of the video?


Kohl is the dark eyeliner stuff that some Afghan men wear, I've never seen anyone wearing it in the parts of the ME I've been to (Egypt, Lebanon.) It's probably meant as a dig, like the dead guy was wearing makeup because he's gay or something. lovely banter by war criminals at least.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Xandu posted:

The rumor is that it was actually someone in his family who planned it.

Where did you see that? I'm not too terribly surprised, just wanting to know more.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Brown Moses posted:


It's also Gaddafi's birthday today.


I'd like to think that there's some smart-rear end crew chief putting ribbons ala birthday gifts on the JDAMs somewhere out there.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Scaramouche posted:

I've been reading a few articles lately (mostly from news aggregators) that are calling the Yemen and Syria conflicts "tribal". As in "competing tribesmen are attacking the regime" instead of "tons of protestors are fed up with the regime". Is this just some kind of shorthand for "browns wanting freedom we don't like" or am I being paranoid?

It's an over simplification for sure in Syria's case (that country's fault lines are based more on sect and religion than tribe) and it's somewhat less of an exaggeration in Yemen. I kind of take umbrage at the term tribe, if only because it sounds so savage and Orientalist. It might be better to think "political organization bound by differing degrees of blood relation and mutual self interest" when you read "tribe" but really, the distinction between the two is pretty hard to distill into a 250 word AP piece written by a stringer.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Did anyone else catch Saleh's speech? That dude was seriously messed up- bandaged hands, not moving his body while he spoke, and it looked like his skin was several shades darker than before (bad makeup job covering burns?) He also reported that he had more than eight operations in Saudi Arabia.

This is why you limit your exposure to Semtex-lined tanning booths. Holy poo poo.

As far as Egypt, the long and short of it is that people are pissed at SCAF for a number of things, including the slow pace of reform, kicking the can of trials for former regime figures and indicted members of the security forces down the road, and questions regarding the legitimacy of the recent constitutional amendments. Yesterday, people rioted in Suez after a bunch of cops who killed people during the uprising got bail, and last week, there were clashes after former Int. Minister Habib al-Adly's trial for killing protesters was postponed. There's going to be huge demonstrations tomorrow, and everyone- the April 6 Movement, National Association for Change (El Baredai's group), the Muslim Brotherhood, Coptic organizations, and even the Salafists (!) will demonstrate. Things could get very out of hand tomorrow- SCAF has really got to step things up on a political and judicial front if it wants to keep things quiet until elections. Steven Cook has a great post explaining all of this here, but an actual poster in Egypt like Ham will probably have their own unique insights.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

AFP ran that story about Ford going to Hama with an ending sentence to the effect of "A senior US official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the ambassador was there to make contact with the opposition." While I'm sure that's the case and think Ford meeting the opposition is a good thing, I'm not so sure that leaking it was smart. The Syrian state media has been running with the narrative that the protests are the work of foreign conspirators (hilariously blaming Salafists, Lebanon, Turkey and the US to some degree.) Now, it's out there that a high-level representative of the US government has met with the people the Assad regime has been calling "armed gangs."

While this may not seem like much, recognize that the situation in Syria is pretty opaque, and I don't even think that most Syrians (at least not those in Damascus, Aleppo and other major cities) have a full account of the size and scope of the protest movement. It's not inconceivable that there's some segment of the Syrian population that may buy into the regime's propaganda and deny the opposition their support.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Pureauthor posted:

Maybe it's just me being politically ignorant, but why would this hypothetical bunch being Colombian mercenaries be significant in any way?

I think PMCs like Blackwater and Triple Canopy recruited ex-military types (ex-SOF, etc) from Colombia and El Salvador. There's probably enough unemployed soldiers who are willing to fight for the highest bidder, not to mention Xe (nee Blackwater) is also headquartered in the UAE these days.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Ham posted:

Are you guys not following anything in Egypt? Massive anti-SCAF demonstrations that started as a march from Tahrir Square to SCAF headquarters at the Ministry of Defense in Cairo, and more demonstrations in Suez and Alexandria. At least 300 wounded so far, no confirmed fatalities, demonstrators were attacked by "thugs". Spent 6 hours trying to get out of that mess, army has the whole area locked down. Things are looking pretty grim.

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

Great day in Egypt.

Where did the MB announce they'd be running a presidential candidate? Al Masry al Youm doesn't have anything on that, and last time I checked, Freedom & Justice wasn't running a candidate for the presidency. I wasn't surprised when they announced they'd be aligning with al-Wafad, but I didn't think they'd be running a candidate so soon.

edit: did they really get over their internal rifts so quickly? I'd been reading so much about the split between the older, more cautious vanguard and the newer, more liberal members.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Algeria: Never really got off the ground after some fairly large demonstrations after Ben Ali and Mubarak fell. Now, anytime anyone goes out to protest, security forces usually beat/arrest the lot of them. Anti-government sentiment seems to be at a low boil, but not really in danger of flaring up.

Bahrain: GCC and Bahraini forces pushed most of the demonstrators into Shia' villages on the outskirts of Manama. Protests have continued in those areas, especially in Sitrah and Karzakan, but the cops have used pretty brutal means to keep them there and outside of the capital. The Khalifa regime has also held this weird "national dialogue" event, which has seemingly been a lot of gloating by the government and freaked out Sunnis about how they disrupted an Iranian/American plot (yeah, seriously) to destabilize their country. Absolutely none of the grievances that started the unrest have been resolved, and I believe that when the protesters regroup (probably within a few years), any demonstrations are going to be much more forceful than they were before.

Morocco: Morocco has been a weird case. The protest movement there has been mostly about reform rather than revolution, and protests have occurred on pretty much every Sunday since February. The king has tried to paint himself as a reformer by introducing a number of measures in a referendum that appeared to limit his powers, but really didn't do much. The government had this big "everyone vote yes and show your support for these unprecedented reforms!" campaign that meant to play up patriotism, but the opposition had been telling people to vote no due to the superficiality of the referendum. When the vote actually took place last month, the government claimed something like a 75% turnout with 98% voting yes. Unsurprisingly, the opposition has challenged these figures, and protests have continued.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

There are some disturbing reports coming out of North Sinai right now. Repent11, a tweeter affiliated with CNN, is reporting that the Egyptian army and SOF units are engaged with Islamist militants who have reportedly seized control of the Rafah area. You'll remember Rafah as the area which borders the Gaza Strip. It's unconfirmed right now, but if true, things are about to get really, really ugly in the Sinai.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Ham posted:

Situation in Arish is escalating, a captain in the Egyptian Army was killed with several soldiers and another officer severely wounded. Several civilians dead (rumored to be around 8 killed right now) with tens more injured, army engaged in battle with militants.

Eyewitness report (MIGHT NOT BE ACCURATE):

150 cars and trucks manned by militant Islamists from the Takfir and Hijra group entered Arish city around 1:30 - 2:00 PM after Jumaa prayers, destroying a statue of former president Anwar Al-Sadat and proceeding to wreak havoc around the city, and attacking a major police station. They barred people from leaving their houses, confiscated cellphones and cameras and took over the city.

They attacked the police station with RPGs, SPGs and automatic weapons. The military barrack in Arish reinforced the police station with several APCs and helicopters, with reinforcements coming from Rafah city (where another attack likely happened, no info)

Battle is still on-going in Arish, the islamic militants number in the hundreds - possibly thousands.

Where are you getting this from? I've been monitoring Twitter and there's only been one guy (repent11) who's been reporting on the attacks. Conflicting reports abound- I've been hearing there's another attack going on, and I also heard that Egyptian SOF (Unit 777) had repulsed the attack. Anything credible you can confirm would be good...

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Jut posted:

I don't buy this excuse that keeps coming up as an excuse for inaction. Resolutions are submitted on Israel/Palestine even though it's clear the US will veto them, but it doesn't stop them being submitted.
If the Russians or Chinese are going to veto a resolution then put it to the vote regardless and let them look like cunts. Don't pull the "nah no point the reds and chinks will just say no".
Now that the Russians have came out and publicly said they will not veto a resolution condemning the Syrian action then I would expect one to be submitted ASAP.

Your hyperbolic casual racism aside, perhaps you'll notice that this here Guardian article on the matter says:

Russia's foreign ministry said today that it would not oppose a United Nations resolution to condemn violence in Syria as long as it did not include sanctions and other such "pressures".

This means that any UNSC vote that doesn't get vetoed by the Russians will most likely be a sternly worded "hey guys, stop killing your own citizens or else we'll say other mean things to you" message. The only real international intervention in Syria will most likely be new sets of sanctions unilaterally adopted by the US, UK, etc targeting specific members of the Assad family or the Ba'ath Party, rather than any kind of coordinated UN action.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Xandu posted:

I wonder how that happened. Last I heard, the government completely banned al-Jazeera from observing the trial.

Who can resist the winning smiles of Ayman Mohyeldin and Sherine Tadros?

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Ham posted:

It's the lowest scoring yes. The next one is commerce.

Which is weird, because most of the Egyptian lawyers I met in Alexandria were really, really smart people.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Kane, thanks for putting yourself out there and answering questions.

I'd like to know this: have the settlers joined the demonstrations in any meaningful way? I've seen a few tweets from 972 magazine writer @IbnReza about there being some minor clashes between protesters and settlers who tried to set up tents. What's your feelings on the extreme right/settlers joining the protest movement?

Also, I recall reading an article saying that a whole bunch of MKs said, "Housing problems? I know a place where we can build cheaply and freely :smug:" with regard to more West Bank settlement expansion. If the government announced building tens of thousands of new housing units in the Occupied Territories, what portion of the protesters do you think would be placated by that?

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

In other big news, militants attacked several targets throughout Southern Israel today, killing at least seven people and wounding 25 others. Big manhunt under way. Although the attacks allegedly originated in the Sinai (which Egypt holds), I wouldn't be surprised if Israel launches an offensive into Gaza over this.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Ham posted:

Clashes at the border, pretty much. Unknown if accidental or not, but one Egyptian officer and 2 Egyptian soldiers confirmed killed by an Israeli Apache, with several more wounded.

Haaretz is now claiming an Israeli sniper has just been killed by Egyptian Army fire.

Didn't see that on Haaretz, but Ynet said an Israeli sniper was killed by militants near the Rafah border.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Darth123123 posted:

Not to doubt anyone, including you and Ham, but is there verified sources of this?

A crappy article from Xinhua says this:

quote:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-08/19/c_131059119.htm

CAIRO, Aug. 18 (Xinhua) -- Two Egyptian soldiers were killed Thursday in an Israeli attack on borders between Egypt and Gaza, state media reported.

Seven attackers and six Israelis were found dead in three separate attacks along the Egyptian borders with Israel when Israeli buses travelling from Beersheba to Eilat were attacked by gunmen.

Hours after the attacks, Israeli aircraft bombed the Gaza Strip, and killed two Egyptian soldiers when its plane chasing militants, according to official news agency MENA.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to respond to the attacks, vowing to act strongly and decisively against the terrorist activities from Gaza Strip.

Egypt denied any role in the attacks near Eilat.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Everyone needs to pay more attention to forums poster KashiMane and his extensively researched, well documented assertions that the Libyan rebels are actually an imperialist, neo-liberal force bankrolled by Halliburton.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Zorba the Greek posted:

It could have, and NATO getting involved was incredibly stupid. I'm glad the revolution is happening but NATO, specificlly the UK, getting involved was just ridiculous.

And yet if they hadn't, they wouldn't be in Tripoli now.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Zorba the Greek posted:

They shouldn't have got involved for the one reason we all know why they did. I'd rather have the rebels get in there themselves or fail trying than have us help them out. I'm sorry that's just what I think. In 20 or so years, when Libya can't govern itself or when the rebellion collapses, or when the same thing happens again. Who are they going blame?

I am happy they have their revolution but the way they and we went about it? No. I'm not happy about that at all.


Yeah, this is true though. I dunno. I guess I just don't like the fact that they went in under the guise of protecting human lives when we al know why we got involved.

You're still not getting it- the rebels were on the verge of total annihilation before NATO got involved. It was NATO CAS and arms that helped affect the outcome that we're seeing now.

Again, for TLDR: If the rebels hadn't asked for NATO help- they would have all been killed months ago.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Sivias posted:

http://yfrog.com/hsrlxlkj

posted by 'Libyan (Tripolitanian)' and he laughed at it. I guess it was a text message sent out from the Libyana Mobile Phone company?

Edit:

"God is Great. We congratulate the Libyan people on the fall of Muammar Gadaffi and we advice the Libyan people to go out on the streets and to safe gaurd public property and to protect it. And Long live a Free Libya...The National Transitional Council."

Underneath the photo....
Translation: Allahu Akbar (God is great)... We congratulate the LIbyan population for the fall of Muammar Gadafi and we encourage all people to go out to the streets (to celebrate) and maintain the safety and protection of all public property, Long live Free Libya... National Transitional Council...

EFB.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Egypt's revolution just took a sharp turn into Whatthefuckistan, as people are now breaching the Israeli embassy and throwing out documents onto the street below. This is not going to end well.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

In Egypt: officials caved on the proposed pre-arranged visa thing, so don't worry, you can still get your tourist visas at the airport before you go buy papyrus scrolls at the Pyramids.

That is to say this is all contingent on whether or not you'd still like to visit Egypt in the wake of this announcement:

quote:

Egypt's military rulers outlined on Sunday new areas where they would use long-standing emergency laws, citing activities such as blocking roads, publishing false information and weapons possession, the state news agency said.

Interior Minister Mansour al-Essawy also warned on Egyptian state TV that police would open fire on anyone who attacked the Interior Ministry or police stations who was considered to be a threat to police lives.

The toughening of the emergency laws comes after protesters attacked the Israeli embassy and a police station last week, leading to clashes with riot police in which three people were killed and more than 1000 injured.

The state news agency said a decree would be issued to start voter registration at the end of this month, before parliamentary elections, following calls for swift transfer of power to civilian rule. It did not give a date for the vote.

The agency said the law, in place since ousted leader Hosni Mubarak came to power in 1981, would be used to combat "violations of national and public security in the country, and funding that, possession of weapons and ammunition, trading in them, and bringing, exporting or trading in drugs".

It would also be applied against "thuggery, aggression against the freedom to work, sabotaging factories and holding up transport, blocking roads and deliberately publishing false news, statements or rumours".

Egypt has seen months of protests and strikes since Mubarak stepped down, hurting an already fragile economy. Police continue to maintain a thin presence on the streets which Egyptians say has led to an increase in crime.

In his comments on television, the interior minister said: "We won't allow anyone to attack the Interior Ministry or any police station ... According to the law, we will resist if there is any danger to lives, we have to to use weapons."

"If there was a danger to a building or those present inside the building, we will confront with bullets," Essawy said.

The government said on Saturday it would reactivate the emergency laws, which were renewed for six months in April. They allow authorities wide powers of detention and transfer to military and other special courts.

The laws played a major role in social and political repression of Mubarak's rule and removing them has been a core demand of protesters since the uprising that ousted him from power in February.

Hafez Abu Saeda, chairman of the Egyptian Human Rights Organisation, said the announcement raised the possibility that the ruling military council would extend the laws into the period when parliamentary elections are due to be held.

The government is due to hold polls sometime this year, probably in November, but no firm dates have been announced.

"The emergency law gives the authorities power to do a lot of things and transfer people to trials," he said. "But now they will focus on these areas and they will be tougher."

Via the always excellent Al Masry al Youm

So the Emergency Law, which SCAF had agreed to repeal when conditions allow, has now basically been expanded beyond what Mubarak had ever dreamed of. Meet the new bosses, same as the old boss.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

The proposed new electoral law in Egypt also features some pretty sketchy redistricting and a confusing mixture of individual candidates vs. party lists that nearly all of the country's political parties have rejected as a way to get what remains of the now-banned NDP back into office again. This multi-day election time frame seems to fit in with these allegations.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

cgeq posted:

So is the military worried that if a bunch of the "wrong" kind of people get elected they'll lose their US support or just smoke and mirrors so the military can entrench and extend their rule as long as possible or is it just old guard remnants trying to regain political power or non-Muslim Brotherhood groups trying to build up their party infrastructure to the point they can get as many seats as possible or things are just seriously in shambles and this is the only way to guarantee a free and fair election? A little of all? Mostly one or the other? Something completely different?

It's hard to say for sure. On one hand, the military has never been comfortable with openly governing because it's a lose-lose proposition for them: during Mubarak's reign, they were showered with all of the military goodies they wanted (M1 Abrams tanks produced under license in Egypt, F-16s, etc) and also used their considerable clout to do make a lot of money by opening hospitals, malls, farms, etc. but also because their behind-the-scenes nature allowed the army to at least portray itself as beyond politics and as the one governmental institution that was largely beyond reproach. I think that the military wants to get out of governing as soon as possible, and is doing some serious political horse trading to make sure their cozy status is protected by any civilian-led government. For a while, it seemed like the MB and the military were establishing a relationship that left a lot of secular activists pissed off, but dithering over a new constitution pissed off the Brotherhood something fierce and it seems like that relationship is gradually icing over.

Bear in mind that while the National Democratic Party was dissolved back in April, the remnants are reorganizing into different parties. I think it's likely that the military would trust NDP holdouts over the leftist parties like April 6 or Islamist parties like the MB- during Mubarak's last ten years, the country's economy did do a lot better by cozying up to the WB/IMF and other international institutions, and this move was spearheaded largely by Gamal Mubarak and a new class of NDP officials with extensive ties to the country's business sector.

Perhaps Ham will chime in to correct me on all of this, but it seems like Egyptian politics are a three-ringed circus without a ringmaster right now. The machinations of all the political actors- from the military to the secular parties to the Islamists- vary between shrewd political moves to outright chaos.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Yemen State TV just announced that Ali Abdullah Saleh has returned. poo poo is going to get very, very ugly if this is true.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

There are unconfirmed reports that Saleh will chair a ruling party meeting in a few hours and then resign. To whom power would go to is unknown, but if he attempts to pass it off to his screwball kid it's going to get even worse.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Dunno if this has already been posted, but this is the most succinct analysis of Ali Abdullah Saleh's psyche I've seen yet.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen and propagandist for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, has been killed in Yemen today. The US government just confirmed this, but the Yemeni Defense Ministry was the first to break the news.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

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Hey Brown Moses- how about Hannah for a name for your daughter?

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

Man, given what Misrata went through, Qadhafi couldn't have picked a worse contingent of fighters to be captured by than those who came from there. All things considered, he's probably lucky he just got off by being beaten and then executed- I would have thought the Misratans would have drawn and quartered him.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

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ZombieLenin posted:

Sigh. Yes, yes Ghadaffi was the evil anti-American dictator who deserved to be shot in the head. Lets not talk about American backed dictators and terrorists, both past and present, who were just as hosed up and "evil."

Some of whom were allowed to "retire" to the United States. Let's not talk about the ways in which the United States military has encouraged, participated in, or turned a blind eye to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Certainly don't mention 100,000 children died in Iraq as a direct result of our sanction policy in the 1990s.

No, we understand in America that what we do and what our allies do is always good. And we deserve more human rights than that Ghadaffi guy. I mean there was a rape room somewhere, the news told me so. Oh, and that bastard nationalized his oil industry. gently caress him. He deserves to be captured, and all his legal rights as defined by international law ignored and summarily shot in the head.

And I will be sure to complain about the rules of armed conflict only in the event that an American pow is killed.

All governments have interests and conduct their foreign policy to maximize the realization of those interests. These things are not static and do not develop in a vacuum, and amazingly enough, they change over time. This leads to indescribably hosed up scenarios in which, yes, we support hosed up people and their hosed up things that they do and do hosed up things on our own- it's an unfortunate fact of history which goes further than Thucydides and the history of the Peloponnesian War. No amount of legislation, international tribunals, or other effort will ever change this fact. Has US foreign policy ever been anything but hypocritical and avaricious? No. But I challenge you to find me ANY state that would not conduct its foreign policy in a similar fashion.

Before you accuse me of white-knighting the various crimes committed abroad by the American government, I should point out that I'm not defending this- I'm just pointing out the historical record here. It's also uncontroversial to say that there are the occasional instances when we actually do manage to get things right, and all things considered, the Libyan intervention has heretofore been one of those rare successes.

As far as your tired assertion that this war was about oil- no. Qadhafi had been more than content to allow foreign oil companies into do business, and the international community happily obliged him.

I believe that Qadhafi's execution was wrong, but when compared to what he did to that country for 42 years, and what he did to Misrata, I'm not going to shed many tears about him getting roughed up and shot. I maintain that this was probably the most merciful end he could have hoped for.

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pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

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I haven't seen this linked in the thread yet, but the Institute for the Study of War has a four-part series up on the entire Libyan revolution. Link here.

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