Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

The French Minister of Foreign Affairs declared on the radio that we don't have the military means to stop Benghazi from falling, since he wasn't able to convince the G8 members.

-edit- here's a source : http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/1/actualite/le-g8-divise-ecarte-l-option-militaire-en-libye_972214.html?actu=1
He also says we probably should have used military might last week to neutralize some airfields and destroy the few dozen aircraft Kadhafi has.

Yeah it's pretty sad, I think the government is trying to cover all bases, so that if we never intervene they can just blame others.
vvvvv

pylb fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Mar 15, 2011

# ¿ Mar 15, 2011 09:52

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 17:50

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Sri.Theo posted:

From the Al Jazeera blog - it shows where all the closest possible bases for military action are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k&feature=player_embedded

France have aircraft in Chad, just south of Libya, and also a military airbase in Corsica in the Mediterranean, if they don't want to use solely Istres.

I also read that Spain would be providing NATO with two bases.

pylb fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Mar 18, 2011

# ¿ Mar 18, 2011 13:35

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Indeed, as long as he respects the cease fire we'd look extremely bad if we intervened. I doubt the rebels have the means to go on the offensive, so he's not in a bad position. The only good thing I see about it, is that it gives France, Britain and the supporting countries more time to organize themselves.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2011 14:15

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Nenonen posted:

That's very serious. The country has had 9000 peacekeepers since 2003, but there'd need to be a lot more and equipped differently to prevent these abuses. I wonder if the Resolution 1973 will, in turn, force France and USA to intervene in Ivory Coast as well? Surely the Frenchies want to put Gbagbo out of his misery, remembering how his airstrikes on French peacekeepers killed 9 and wounded 31 in 2004. Or is cocoa not as powerful motivator as oil?

France has been "intervening" there for years, being one of our ex-colonies, we want to make sure to protect our investments (and maybe civilians sometimes). There's a french deployment of troops there currently.
I'm pretty sure we got our revenge on the airstrike already, since we destroyed the country's air force right after.

GORILLA BASTARD posted:

He's hiding/moving his assets. It's hide & seek time with US satellites before the bombs start dropping.

I'm curious about France's reason for chomping at the bit for a fight. Has crazy uncle Mo ever did something to them?

We think he's responsible for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Flight_772. There's also the matter of Chad, and he mocked France and Sarkozy when we invited him over a couple years ago.

pylb fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Mar 18, 2011

# ¿ Mar 18, 2011 14:56

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Loud explosion and anti-aircraft fire heard in Libyan city of Benghazi. -AFP

# ¿ Mar 18, 2011 22:16

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Thunderstorm posted:

We've been waiting what seems like forever for the UN resolution, and now 24 hours later with all that time to prepare, we're still seeing Gadaffi shelling the poo poo out of urban areas. I call self-righteous bullshit on the French and the British.

Ok, for that useless dumbfuck Sarkozy it's an election year. But what's the agenda of the brits? Too much media coverage for that royal brat?

P.S.: NATO forces need at least another week to prepare, which means they can as well go home.

France said they didn't want a NATO intervention.
We have reports of pro-Kadhafi troops bombing cities, but we also have declarations from Kadhafi's goverment declaring a cease-fire. The West can't afford to attack Kadhafi's forces if they have indeed stopped their attack (and if they haven't, we need reliable proof to be legally covered).

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 00:03

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

SatanX posted:

From BBC:

BFM, a French TV station, is reporting French fighter jets are over Benghazi enforcing the no-fly zone.

http://www.bfmtv.com/

The "Le Direct" tab is the live stream for the TV, though it's in French.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 15:24

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Heh, while pretty much every representative left all business-like, Hillary stopped to smile and wave.

Also, saying you're against the West rather than with Gaddafi would probably be better worded, and it's true we are hypocrits when you consider the situation in other countries.

The French planes flying over Benghazi are Rafale on a recon mission from the Saint-Dizier base.

pylb fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Mar 19, 2011

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 15:36

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Thundarr posted:

France has just announced that their jets are now over Benghazi. If shelling continues while the jets just orbit while awaiting orders, that would make France look monumentally bad. Sarkozy didn't send them there to make ~~France~~ him look bad.

He announced that we had planes flying over Benghazi enforcing the NFZ and doing recon. There are other planes ready for strikes against ground troops if they do not obey the cease fire, but as far as we know, these are not currently over Benghazi.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 16:02

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

kalonji posted:

30 years ago.

France, US and Italy tried to kill him in 1980 (and failed).

Still, even if we had done it then it would not have been to protect the Libyan people.

pylb fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 19, 2011

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 16:07

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

France is saying that what was shot down was a cruise missile, not a plane.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 22:33

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Hilario Baldness posted:

They just showed the video on Al Jazeera. That was obviously a plane.

Wasn't the video just seen on Al Jazeera the one of the rebel plane shot down this afternoon ? It's night right now in Libya.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 22:40

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Nombres posted:

I'm curious, where are the NTC getting their arms, vehicles and ammunition? I assume there were probably government armories they raided, but how well were they equipped? How rich is Benghazi, i.e., will the NTC have the financial ability to purchase these new arms and ammunition when the current ones become run down, lost in combat or just generally broken?

If they got them from armories, were the armories stocked for a prolonged conflict? Do the Coalition nations have any plans to supply NTC forces with arms and ammunition? I know Gadaffi is getting arms and ammunition from Belarus et al., but I doubt that's in effect since the no-fly zone came into effect.

It doesn't really change anything knowing these or not (unless the NTC is running low on ammo and the Coalition isn't planning to send stuff, then I guess they're in trouble), but I'm just curious.

Egypt has been supplying small arms.

Strictly out of curiosity, how would Belarus supply Gadaffi ? Egypt doesn't seem likely, France has some influence over Chad and there's a NFZ in effect with an arms embargo and a ban on flights.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2011 23:47

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Random unimportant info: the name of the french participation in the NFZ is Operation Harmattan, and the british are using Operation Ellamy.

Also, haha if UAE does bring 24 aircraft, that will be more than France used today (8 Rafale, 2 Mirage 2000-5, 2 Mirage 2000 D, 6 C 135 refueling planes and an E3F Awacs).

pylb fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Mar 20, 2011

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 00:19

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Just saw that a usually reliable and well informed french newspaper (Canard Enchaine) had published that France's intelligence agency (DGSE) had delivered 105mm canons and AA batteries to the rebels.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 03:01

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Darth123123 posted:

He said AND AA batteries. Really why would you give AA to a rebel force that just accidently shot down one of their own, and then send in your countries planes to fly over the same territory.

This exchange is supposed to have taken place in Benghazi around March 6, so before the NFZ. It obviously hasn't been confirmed though, so should be treated as rumor.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 03:13

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Unfortunately the joke falls flat in french, "batteries antia�riennes" is a long way from "piles AA"

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 03:17

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Good liars make sure never to lie all the time.

I don't believe the people leading the rebel movement are paragons of humanity who will save Libya. I am willing to believe the rebel movement itself is mostly made up of simple people fighting for more freedom.
And in the end, how much worse could a new Libyan leader be ?

# ¿ Mar 21, 2011 22:29

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

If you're fluent in French, here's the official website for Operation Harmattan (the french part of Odyssey Dawn).
The Libyan Galeb was actually destroyed with an ASM right after it landed.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2011 15:51

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Here are some choice excerpts from UN Resolution 1973

quote:

2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people

quote:

3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance

quote:

4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

quote:

7. Decides further that the [No Fly Zone] shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraph 4 [...], nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States [...] to be for the benefit of the Libyan people

quote:

16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States [...] to prevent the provision of armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

quote:

28. Reaffirms its intention to keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and underlines its readiness to review at any time the measures imposed by this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011), including by strengthening, suspending or lifting those measures, as appropriate, based on compliance by the Libyan authorities with this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011)

Member states are authorized to do quite a lot if it benefits the Libyan people.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2011 13:02

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Earwicker posted:

Well, it's very much a Western intervention, so it does actually lead to the question of why - if this is really a purely humanitarian mission - the same kind of intervention is not occurring on other areas where there is or has been a humanitarian crisis, regardless of whether its the US, UK, or France leading it.

Which is unfortunate, because the UN Resolution

quote:

[takes note] of the decision of the Council of the League of Arab States of 12 March 2011 to call for the imposition of a no-fly zone on Libyan military aviation, and to establish safe areas in places exposed to shelling as a precautionary measure that allows the protection of the Libyan people and foreign nationals residing in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

and

quote:

recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of [the protection of civilians]

Only Qatar has flown any missions though, as far as I know.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2011 15:26

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Slantedfloors posted:

UN forces have yet to figure out a way to qualify a defensive line of tanks/artillery as a threat to civilians.

I really don't see what the trouble is, the resolution says "all necessary measures, to protect civilians or civilian populated areas under threat of attack". Civilians themselves don't have to be under threat, cities in general count.

If I had to hazard a guess though, I'd say they relaxed a little on the day of the conference to show Gaddafi they were willing to cease fire if he stepped down.

pylb fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Mar 29, 2011

# ¿ Mar 29, 2011 22:04

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

euphronius posted:

Is it just me or has the Fog of War been much thicker in this war than in Egypt? It is hard to tell what is going on and every source is questionable. I mean sometimes the source is Robert Gates!

France and UK give somewhat detailed accounts of their operations :
France - Operation Harmattan
United Kingdom - Operation Ellamy

NATO's operational media updates have some interesting numbers too :
NATO - Operation Unified Protector

Canada's Operation Mobile and USA's Operation Odyssey Dawn websites weren't very informative for day to day stuff last I looked. I haven't searched for Danish information, and it seems the Qatari have been flying air interdiction missions with the French so far.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2011 22:51

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

If the reports of Qatar supplying french weapons are correct, those would probably be ERYX. According to wiki, they're still untested in actual combat, kind of like the Rafale was; I don't know what else could be shown off in this conflict though. I just realized how good of a customer Qatar was for french arms though, I know they also have Leclerc tanks.

-edit-
Interesting, didn't know Qatar had any; some were sold to Libya in 2009. The launcher costs 100 000�, missiles around 10 000�, and they're supposed to be easier to handle than Eryx.
vvv

pylb fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 14, 2011

# ¿ Apr 14, 2011 19:40

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Here's a photo of one of the mines:
http://i.imgur.com/syPKF.jpg

Friday morning a french frigate guided by a recon plane intercepted some boats going towards Misrata at high speeds. When they didn't stop, it fired warning shots; a number of the boats turned around while another one sunk. On closer inspection they found this mine, then two others.

(I know nothing of naval warfare - did the french "miss" one of the warning shots and sink that boat ? And how hard is it to catch a drifting mine once it's been localized ?)

# ¿ May 2, 2011 20:10

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

(from http://setrouver.wordpress.com/)

A bunch of pictures from around the Tunisia border post :

Also a story about a trap the rebels in Al Giran devised to deal with Gaddafi forces when they only had access to small arms : they had found tank shells, useless by themselves, and stored them in a safe place.
After removing the fuzes, they replaced them with electric detonators dating back to the war against the Italians, that their grandfather had kept. To maximize the effect, they put the shells in 5 fuel barrels. These were placed near a major road, hidden by foliage; the detonators were linked to a 220v source.
The father took an elevated position to watch the area and communicated firing instructions to one of his sons. He first saw a fast moving, widely spaced 4x4 convoy, and let them pass. A second convoy, this time including armored vehicles, approached. The explosion took out at least three armored vehicles, a number of pickups and plenty of soldiers.

# ¿ May 15, 2011 17:56

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

mr. nazi posted:

Ok how about : what are the implications to Gaddafi, if/when an international arrest warrant is issued for his arrest on the charges against him?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_al-Bashir.

# ¿ May 17, 2011 01:58

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Here's a picture of one of the boats abandoned a couple of days ago by Gaddafi forces (Courbet frigate in the background).

And some old pics from Misratah :

Molotov cocktails and an 'armored' pickup

pylb fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 19, 2011

# ¿ May 19, 2011 22:31

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

abske_fides posted:

What's this about an earthquake that happened yesterday that was 8.4 on the scale yet the medias are trying to hide it? Seems completely retarded but it has been blowing up for some reason.

Apparently there was an error at Strasbourg, and the quake was "only" a 5.4

Anybody fluent in Romanian ? http://www.dcnews.ro/2011/05/infp-a-anuntat-din-greseala-un-seism-de-84-e-vina-celor-de-la-strasbourg-spune-marmureanu/

# ¿ May 20, 2011 17:47

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Young Freud posted:

The news of that French amphibious assault ship is interesting. I'm trying to figure what other mission an amphibious assault/helicopter carrier can provide other than forming beachheads?

It was used against Gbagbo in Ivory Coast I think. As said, it can host 16 helicopters (8 NH90s and 8 Tigers usually), 110 armored vehicles and 450 passengers. It's got a 69-bed hospital and can be used to evacuate people or deliver supplies.

("BPC Tonnerre" should get you plenty GIS results)

pylb fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 23, 2011

# ¿ May 23, 2011 00:46

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

His idleness posted:

Many more are on the way to Libya, their goal is to turn Libya into an Islamic republic.
Never mind, the Libyan's will have to make a few sacrifices to get rid of Gaddafi and his anti Islamic ways. The rebels will soon have Libyan women covered from head to foot in black again.

What you posted proves that AQ are a minority and are not leading the movement.

# ¿ May 30, 2011 20:40

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Ardent Communist posted:

Well then the question is is NATO's role in Libya the enforcement of a no fly zone? Bombing ground targets may have been what the US did in Iraq during it's imposition of a no fly zone, but it's not what it's supposed to be.
A major rule of states is that they don't interfere with the goings on of a individual state. Denying that NATO is invading the country means that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was also just imposing a no fly zone on the United States. Ignoring the claims made by Russian state news may be justifiable, but you also can't deny that western news media can be misled by the statements of governments, as you saw in the early days of the Iraq War and in it's run-up.

Resolution 1973 isn't just a no-fly zone though. That's only paragraphs 6 to 12.

-edit- sorry, meant to edit my previous post

# ¿ May 30, 2011 20:43

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

So were the french were using Gazelles or Tigres ? Both it seems, according to pictures from last night.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2011 12:21

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Here's a (probably biased) article on Tunisia in french, about a month old : http://setrouver.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/il-y-a-quelquechose-de-pourri-dans-lair/

According to it, the government and police are a little too keen on maintaining the calm.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2011 19:20

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Sivias posted:

Are NATO and the Rebels working in tandem? I.E. is there active communications and planning between the two?
"We're going to bomb this spot at this hour - attack after 3:00"
I would imagine that would require some sort of 'boots on the ground' assistance group with the gear to coordinate and communicate all the rebels.

The French army openly admitted to deploying "advisors" back in April.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/autres-operations/operation-harmattan-libye/actualites/libye-point-de-situation-n-23 posted:

Enfin, une petite �quipe de militaires fran�ais a �t� plac�e aupr�s de l�envoy� sp�cial fran�ais qui est en lien avec le Conseil national libyen de transition (CNT). Ils assurent une mission de liaison qui peut les amener � conseiller le CNT sur des aspects techniques (logistique, organisation ou communication�).

It roughly translates to : a small team of French military were deployed to assist the French special correspondent in contact the CNT. Their mission includes advising the CNT on technical aspects such as logistics, organization and communications.

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, but a "french mercenary", Pierre Marziali, was killed at a checkpoint in Benghazi about a month ago, while 4 of his collaborators were arrested and detained by the CNT. He was CEO of Secopex, a PSC - PMCs are illegal in France. Info seemed really scarce on the subject back then and nothing really new has turned up. I have no idea who he was working for; rumors said he was recruiting/spying for Qaddafi, the official statement is that he was there to set up a new branch office offering protection to diplomats and journalists.
Allegedly he "refused to cooperate", was hit with a bullet to either the abdomen or the back while unarmed, and died at the hospital.

pylb fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jun 18, 2011

# ¿ Jun 18, 2011 00:04

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Nenonen posted:

I recall the two Libyan fighter bombers landing in Malta, claiming they did it because they were told to bomb a Libyan city, were proven to be a CIA/NATO false flag operation.

Okay, technically not 'proven'. But we haven't heard anything about them ever since, what other proof is needed?

Wasn't one of them shot down by rebel friendly-fire over Benghazi around the time the NFZ was voted ? I don't know what we'd hear about the other one anyway, I don't think he's authorized to fly under the NFZ.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2011 20:12

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

I don't actually remember an armed insurrection in Iraq similar to the one in Libya (or Afghanistan), though all I really remember is our news wondering why the US insisted there were WMDs when the UN inspectors insisted they couldn't find any.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2011 21:10

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

I don't think France has admitted it officially yet (a last I haven't read about it).
The decision to airdrop equipment dates back to mid April and does not involve any of our allies, according to the Figaro's unofficial source.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2011 11:11

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

According to the french paper that printed the story about the weapon dealings, they also saw a map from the DGSE (french secret service) showing Tiji and al-Jawsh were in the hand of the rebels.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2011 14:26

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 17:50

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Their article is from the 28th, but I have no clue about the map itself. And they might have misread the map, or the DGSE could be wrong obviously.

They do have a more detailed explanation of why France decided to deliver weapons itself. Previously, weapons were mostly coming from Qatar, and were delivered by plane to Benghazi, then by boat to Misratah. Apparently the french army has a "unique system" to airdrop stuff precisely where they want to (surgical drop zones ? :rolleyes:

) with two parachutes, the second opening at 200m. So they figured they were the only ones capable of supplying the rebels in the south.

edit:
There's also mention of two improvised runways used by smaller planes from Arab states to relay the french deliveries.
VVVVV

pylb fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 1, 2011

# ¿ Jul 1, 2011 15:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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