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Golbez posted:But firing occasional rockets into Israel can't possibly affect change, and there's no reason to think it would, so why do it? Because some people see killing Jews who live in what was once part of the Umma as Allah's work. Face it, if the Israelis converted en masse to Islam, they'd be able to slaughter Palestinians with much less of an outcry. Does anyone remember what the Hashemites did to them during Black September?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:22
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Considering the PA basically lets Israel do whatever it wants and protesters have a history of getting gunned down by Israeli troops I'm not sure what they can do aside from whatever is in their power. The PA is in no position to let or not let Israel do whatever it wants. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, it has the means and would. You couldn't say the same about many of the major players on the other side.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:31
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Completely marginalized on an international stage by Israel and the US, a big old embargo on food stuffs and basic supplies, a militaristic state right next door that regularly sends incursions, a government(unrecognized as legitimate) that is ineffectual or worse at protecting the populace, and you expect the Palestinians to do anything *but* fall in with radical groups bent on attacking Israel? Is this meant to justify radicals' tactics, or meant to deflect from criticism of them?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:34
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:That's part of the rhetoric, yes. I prefer to deal in the actual situation as opposed to a hypothetical one since Israel is not currently under occupation by Hamas. Nice way to sidestep the issue completely.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:36
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:I'm saying that's why they exist, and we can honestly criticize them from there once we're actually accurate as to the causes and reasons for the existence of these groups. I'm going to backtrack from my use of the term 'radicals', since groups like Hamas are mainstream in this context. They exist because of a total rejection of Israel and Israelis.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:42
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Goatman Sacks posted:Wouldn't be an issue if ya'll just banned the genocide apologists. Way to reduce a morally-ambiguous and intractable conflict to a soundbite for partisan hacks, all while advocating to shut down the debate in favor of your team.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:05
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DesperateDan posted:Morals are endlessly and pointlessly debatable, the number of civilian deaths per "side" is not. When you have a first rate military force fighting an opponent who's best shot is a rocket fuelled by fertiliser and constructed from a drainpipe, it's hardly a wonder. No, morals are fixed. We punish negligent manslaughter worse than first-degree murder, and the reason for this is generally accepted. Unless you are a blindly strict utilitarian, you recognize intentional acts as more morally culpable than the results of negligent or reckless behavior. As someone who has always been moderately leftish, I never could understand the fetishization of the Palestinian national cause by so much of the soi-disant Western left. It's an increasingly religiously conservative nationalist movement that consistently rejects pacifism. Is it the exotic headgear?
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Nov 14, 2012 23:29
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mitztronic posted:As others have said, Netanyahu has a lot of political posturing to do for the upcoming elections under the facade of 'keeping the people of Isreal safe'. Right, it's completely implausible that a nation would take seriously threats and violence against its citizens from foes sworn to its annihilation. Netanyahu is a oval office, but it staggers the mind the conspiracy theories some people see behind Israel's self-defense.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:43
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Munin posted:Yes, and I would contend that Israels acts are planned and intentional. In addition as the actor with greater control over the situation it deserves a harsher judgement for the large amount of pain, killing and suffering it chooses to inflict. Of course the acts of Israel's military against Gaza are intentional. I seriously doubt that Hamas rocket strikes against towns like Sderot are planned by Israel though. quote:If Israel claims provocation by the Palestinians as it's justification then that cuts both ways. That acknowledgment of the ambiguity of things is far more nuanced than most Palestinians partisans will concede. But still, the fact remains that one of the fundamental duties of any state toward its citizens is to protect them. Israel would be shirking this duty if it failed to respond to rocket attacks on its territory and citizens. quote:I would also add that if peace is Israel's long term strategic objective none of this is helping them attain it. Netanyahu is more concerned with political survival than Israel's best long-term strategic interests, if you ask me. quote:The party Netanyahu is in coalition and many of the members of this party would never countenance the creation of a Palestinian state or, alternatively, of treating Palestinians as citizens equal in status to Jewish Israelis. Palestinian civilians are currently victims of violence both on a routine daily basis and due to collateral deaths and injuries during these Israeli actions. Palestinians are never going to be Israelis. The fact that they are weaker, or suffer more than Israelis does not mean that they aren't the dirtier fighters.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:58
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Drew Carey posted:I assume this means Pakistan or Yemen is entitled to blow up CIA officials driving around Washington? Pakistan and Yemen are formal allies of the US. But to your point, CIA operatives or especially, say, drone pilots are far more legitimate targets for their adversaries than kindergarteners in Sderot or Ashdod. CIA operatives are not noncombattants in any reasonable definition of the word.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:17
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Must Love Dogs posted:Yo if you were a Marxist-Leninist and actually support a brutal apartheid settler state that commits war crimes like using white phosphorous over built-up areas and bombs UN schools and deliberately starves half a million people you probably weren't ever actually a Marxist-Leninist nor did you ever understand the ideology you said you upheld at one point. What does Marxist-Leninism have in common with the Palestinian national cause? I'm thinking really hard about it, but I don't see a coherent economic policy of the Palestinians' that resembles Marxist-Leninism.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:19
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farraday posted:On the bright side, chances of an attack on Iran are dropping precipitously right? The Jordanian mukhabarat is notoriously brutal. quote:My biggest concern is that a panic response to discontent could cause real instability. I still think that the Monarchy can surf it out, and I hope they do, because anything that overthrows the Monarchy is almost certainly going to get ugly fast. In the context of the Middle East, the Hashemite monarchy in Amman (when it isn't slaughtering Palestinians at a rate that would draw protest from the most hardline Israelis) is relatively benign, but that isn't saying very much.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:24
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Must Love Dogs posted:you...you do realize that anti-imperialism is a fundamental part to most Marxist-Leninist thought, yes? Yes. You do realize that Arabism and Islam are one of two of the most virulent forces for imperialism the world has ever seen, yes? You do realize that Arabic-speakers are not native to Palestine, but imperialists from Arabia, yes? You do realize that integration of religion and government are utterly anathema to Marxist-Leninist thought, yes? le chat posted:Are hospitals and schools legitimate targets for the IDF? No.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:27
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Friendly Factory posted:And neither were the civilians that Israel killed today. Or the thousands they've killed before this. Neither side smells like roses here. Hamas is filled with shitheads but let's not pretend Israel doesn't look worse than the Palestinians in this whole thing. They've killed more, started more wars and started the overall conflict in the first place by stealing a country. Israel doesn't look worse than the Palestinians at all. Agreed that neither side smells like roses, but the Palestinian national cause is much more rooted in the annihilation of its adversary nationality. The meme of "stealing a country" isn't even worth addressing with anything beyond a "pshaw." V. Illych L. posted:This post is maybe unwise, but Leninism is pretty adamant in treating even non-socialist emancipatory nationalism as a Good Thing which at the very least destabilises capitalism - Lenin even explicitly said that revolution had to start in the periphery, though he obviously wasn't talking about this situation. In this, it diverges from many other kinds of marxist thought such as the German communism of Liebknecht and Luxemburg (who saw nationalism of any kind as a menace that should be combatted) and anarchist/anarcho-syndicalist thought, which thought that nationalism was a distraction. Ersatz Marxist-Leninists have been virulently anti-Israel since well before it stepped into a more capitalist economic model. I'm unaware of any neighboring state historically more rooted in socialism than Israel. quote:Supporting Israel, the developed capitalist state in alliance with most other major capitalist states, over the Palestinian nation then becomes a very un-leninist thing to do. Marxist-Leninism is opposed to development, and gender equality? I don't see much resembling Marxist-Leninism in a national cause increasingly dominated by obscurantist religion, and without any firm economic ideas that I'm able to articulate. To me, the self-styled Western leftists who fetishize Palestinians do so out of self-loathing, and because they are able to identify with the mostly-secular Israelis, rather than the guerilla fighters in cute ethnic costumes and exotic headgear. I can't see anything leftist or liberal at all in the Palestinian cause. I believe they should have their own state and self-determination, but hope the gently caress they manage to discover liberal thought some day. quote:I will not respond to replies to this post so as not to drag the thread even further off topic. "Israel" is in the topic of this thread.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:41
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the JJ posted:I... what? I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Do you labor under the mistaken idea that only people who look European are capable of imperialism? How do you think a minor language originally spoken in the Hejaz came to be spoken thousands of miles away in Morocco, if not by imperialism?
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Nov 15, 2012 00:44
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Durgoc posted:Or perhaps it is because we (I mostly refer to Americans here) have complicity in Israeli crimes? My taxes are paying for them, and my government shields them from any international censure. Nice pop-psychology tho. Care to give your interpretation of activist support for the ANC or East Timor? (hint: we supported those crimes as well.) I'm not following this reasoning. Because you government supports Israel arguably more than it should, you need to disregard principle and oppose it? And I'm unsure how Israel is shielded from international censure. Has any nation been the object of more finger-wagging resolutions from the UN? You slander the East Timorese and later ANC causes by mentioning them in the same sentence as that of today's Palestinian one. I can't think of a national movement with as much merit that has degraded and discredited itself so completely. If they'd had a leader kf the stature of Gandhi or even Mandela instead of the runted thug Ararat, they'd have a state with 1967 boundaries long ago.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:12
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Drew Carey posted:I'm sorry what? Which side is building stuff upon and economically strangling the other side's land again? Israel has the means but not the will to exterminate the Palestinians. The latter have the will, but lack the means.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:14
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CommieGIR posted:Y'know, maybe if the Palestinians hadn't been screwed by the world for the last 80-90 years... All kinds of peoples have been screwed worse. When was the last time Jewish militants blew up a pizzeria in Berlin? A Mexican suicide bomber blew up a bar in San Diego? The Palestinians and their Arab manipulators attempted to annihilate Jews in the Levant several times, and lost. Do you get equally excised about Germans' expulsion from Koenigsburg?
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Nov 15, 2012 01:23
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Corny posted:And as was said earlier, should the Palestinians just lie down and take it? Israel would never do that, why should the world expect the Palestinians to do that? Vice-versa as well. No. Just about any other methods would yield better results. The settlements are indefensible, and only outstripped in unconscionability by rocket attacks on civilians and suicide bombings.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:27
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farraday posted:Yep, they absolutely use torture, but this is a game of relativity and Jordan is not going to spike any charts on the front. Not only that but the security apparatus simply is not as powerful as it is in other states. Going back to my original point, the lack means that, hopefully, it recognizes that any attempt to simply suppress widespread discontent would not work. I generally agree with this. Externally, Jordan is a moderate state, and an overthrow of the monarchy would probably result in something worse, a la Algeria 20 years ago. It just sucks that there are no good models of governance in the Arab world. When Islamic Republic Iran is the best option for regional power in the region (spare me the admonition that it isn't Arab), you know things are benighted.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:35
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Glitterbomber posted:So do you have any actual solutions or is this just a bit 'well BOTH are bad so whatever' thing? You keep rambling about how the Palestinians are either mindless pawns of the Arabs or slobbering beasts eager to slaughter Jews or both at the same time, but you don't actually say anything of substance other than trying to convince us that the Palestinians are bad and thus deserving of what they get I guess? No, I argue against the smugly self-congratulatory chorus that insinuates, but for Israeli intransigence, everyone in the Middle East would be eating sweet raisins from Shakira's pussy. I acknowledge that Israel often behaves unconscionably, but for fucks sake, this debate here approaches Fox News levels of echo-chamber reverberance. Israel needs to evacuate most of the West Bank, annex Jewish suburbs of Jerusalem, and in exchange compensate the Palestinians with an equal amount of decent land. Then the two parties should gently caress off from each other entirely. There's too much hatred to remedy for a generation.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:44
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Copley Depot posted:Turkey. Unless you meant "there are no good models of Arab governments". I'll acknowledge and agree with this. My oversight.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:49
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Glitterbomber posted:Your right we need more voices like 'literally every Arab nation is too savage to have a just system, and Palestine all wants to kill the Jews and be the mindless drones of the Arabs, regardless of actual polls and information taken', that's a very useful side. Name for me an Arab nation with a system for which you'd renounce your presumably safe citizenship. I can't think of one. There's nothing biologically defective about Arabs. They do better than the average Americans in the US, but the governments of the Arab ME countries suck.
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Nov 15, 2012 01:52
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Holy loving poo poo, are you one of those mythical Islamophobe "leftist" I hear about? I don't hate Palestinians or Arabs at all. I learned their language out of respect, although feel bad for them that they don't have a single decent government in an Arab-majority country. No Arabist though, if you mean in the Saidian sense of Orientalism. My liberal values are universal, even if you believe Muhammad ride to heaven on a loving white horse. I am an Islamophobe though, busted. I also hate Christianity or any other religion in my face. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 02:11
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Mr.48 posted:Did you just seriously bring up Turkey as an example of an Arab country? In fairness, it was in response to my mention of Iran in close proximity to Arab countries.
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Nov 15, 2012 02:15
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How are u posted:Perhaps you should head over to Reddit then. Would you honestly say that you are an Islamophile? Really? No one on the left is uncomfortable maligning political Christianity in the US context, but why the deference to much-worse fundamentalist Islam? Gah, I hope this doesn't escalate.
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Nov 15, 2012 02:26
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mitztronic posted:No, the US said it fully supports Isreal's right to defend itself. I know this sounds pedantic, but there is a difference between this and what you said (with the comma). And any decent leftoid poseur would reject a right to defend oneself against people with neato headgear who were firing lethal ordnance against people who looked too white.
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Nov 15, 2012 02:57
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Maybe the Israelis should duck and cover, read Marx, don Che t-shirts, engage in rigorous tannings, and find cuter ethnic costumes if they are going to win approval for defensive actions from the SA crew. There's no way that people who look so white can otherwise win affirmation from armchair cubicle farmers jockeying for the most leftoid posture in order to lose virginity at age 29.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:17
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Durgoc posted:So the default "moral" position is frothing support for Israel, therefor you have to "disregard" principles to oppose their actions? I oppose many of the actions Israel has taken and continues to take today. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but the fact of the matter is that America's support for Israel is absolutely critical for their continued military aggression. My (and all other American's) tacit acceptance of this means we share in the blame. My support isn't frothing. Netanyahu is a oval office, and Israel behaves very badly and unwisely. I'm also American, but don't accept this. I don't know how you, much more critical than I am, think you tacitly do. What other response are you fishing for? I've addressed most of your rebuttals in good faith. I seem to be one of the few on SA who doesn't passionately believe in some Islamo-Marxist nexus, and may be probated for it in the interest of free speech for everyone who thinks just the same about how cool the ethnic costumes in Palace Stein are. Until then, we can talk. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 03:25
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I really don't get it. It seems so obvious to a retard like me - Israelis are assholes, Palestinians are worse. Palestinians are stupider, because they are bigger but weaker assholes, and keep getting killed. Weaker is not coextensive with nobler. One side uses guided weapons, often recklessly, admitted, in an obvious attempt to reduce civilian casualties. The other side brainwashes their own kids that it's great to kill themselves, so long as they kill a bunch of the other side's kids too. There's equivalence? The moral insanity is, well, insane.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:34
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Must Love Dogs posted:This is the face of Gaza right now. You can take your childlike obsession with cool 'secular' Israelis in neat headgear with kickin' rad military toys killing off the evil Muslims by the dozens and cram it right up your rear end. Israel has, for the past four years, deliberately starved a group of people the population of my hometown for no good reason after killing hundreds of them in a two-month long torrent of war crimes. Well, I can't stand religious Israelis. I have genuine sympathy for you if you're a refugee. quote:Israel does not and will never tolerate coexistence with the Palestinians. It has proved it time and again since Oslo. Until its fangs are pulled and the flow of money into it from America gets shut off, Israel will not stop massacring and degrading the people of the West Bank and Gaza. It is deliberately attempting to ethnically cleanse the West Bank through settlements, legal and illegal. It is deliberately attempting to destroy Palestinian culture and history through the destruction of historical sites in the West Bank. It continues to maintain an apartheid state and routinely treats Israeli Arabs as second-class citizens. Pure cant here. quote:Your ongoing worship of this allegedly liberal ostensibly secular colonial settler state turns my stomach while eleven month old children are being burned to death by IDF weapons. If you had any decency, any heart whatsoever you'd not be cheerleading the IDF but deploring them. I don't particularly even like Israel as a state, despite it claiming to be my homeland. Your attribution of this 'worship' to me is as stupid as me attributing zealous adherence to Islam to you, since you clearly are not Israeli. Don't be an idiot.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:42
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A student posted:Because Obama cock-blocked an Israeli attack on Iran? I've said it a million times, but Israel doesn't have the ability to strike Iran effectively in any other way than it already has, via Stuxnet. Feel free to disregard this reminder in 15 minutes, post this again, and declare Victory. If the truth isn't on your side, just lie, son.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:49
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Must Love Dogs posted:You said something about Israel attempting to minimize casualties in its military deployments. Yep, I stand by it. If Israel didn't care about civilian casualties, it would have exterminated the Palestinians decades ago. For what reason do you propose that it hasn't? Please try to address the question, rather than run away. Toodle pip, ol' bean.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:52
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R. Mute posted:What do you mean when you say that Syria/Iran are pressuring Israel into a war, specifically? I'm sure Assad's not shedding too many tears about it, but how would he be able to get Israel to do anything? For real? Syria certainly isn't (they have enough on their plate), but are you really going to claim that Iran, particularly the great leftist Ahmadinejad, haven't been doing anything to antagonize the Israelis?
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Nov 15, 2012 03:56
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Oh, you're one of them. That explains it. What does this mean? Are you the kind of bigoted gently caress that considers immutable characteristic to be determinative of a person's worldview? Yeah, I'm Jewish, but not Israeli. If you don't like Jews, take a fat, dull knife up your rear end.
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Nov 15, 2012 03:59
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Deceitful Penguin posted:"I don't like Israel, I just defend their genocide because I was raised to believe that Israel was the holy land" "I can't tell whether Goering or Ahmadinejad gives me more of a chubby, totalitarian groupie that I am." That's very nice, son.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:09
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Durgoc posted:In case you haven't noticed, the state US politics is in today has zero criticism of Israel. In fact, the two parties fall over each other to say how much they love Israel and will shower it with gifts. So as a so-called "critic" of Israel, you should not be satisfied with the situation. Therefor, by doing noting to change this Israel love-fest, you are tacitly agreeing with our unwavering support for Israel. I'm not satisfied with the situation, but that's not the issue here. The US should suspend aid to Israel AND the Palestinians, both of whom receive too much of our tax money. quote:What I'm trying to say is, we are responsible for what our government does. Even if we did not explicitly support it. It's not as if you could just say: "Well, I disagree with the atrocities in Vietnam, but I am against the war. Therefor I am blameless! I can just do nothing." We didn't end the atrocities in Vietnam because everyone independently decided they were against the war. It stopped because thousands of people worked very hard for years and years to educate others and take actions that weakened support for it. Do you consider Gazans equally responsible for the actions of Hamasniks, whom they voted into power? quote:There were also a few other paragraphs you forgot to answer. Are the ANC and East Timorese President also self-haters? I don't think they are attracted by the cool outfits. I don't know where you're going with there, or even what is your point of origin with the line of inquiry.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:14
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LP97S posted:Palestinians: Worth less than video game people. That's pretty racist. Seems like it's the majority sentiment toward Israelis here though. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 15, 2012 04:17
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SWITCH HITLER posted:Get hosed, I'm ethnically Jewish and the vast majority of my family is extremely disgusted by Israel's actions. You can be a Jew and not a Zionist, because implemented Zionism has been an absolute clusterfuck for human rights. That's why people her dislike Israel, not for any other reason. Sure you can - I'm also a non-Zionist Jew, and have no desire to make aliya. Israel is not my country. It's problematic for human rights, but the only country in the region that approaches a standard that comes close to what I consider acceptable.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:22
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LP97S posted:I was paraphrasing the IDF with their claims that a million Israelis are at risk as they get ready to bomb 1.7 million people. If you're paraphrasing, surely you can cite the source that you're paraphrasing.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:23
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