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Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Petey posted:

I guess I'm not up on my war porn and also I don't understand how B2s are supposed to help in this situation.

I suppose they could be used to disable Libyan Air Force bases to prevent fixed-wing aircraft from being used against the population, but that level of intervention would be unlikely.

If Gadaffi really does plan on wiping out whole swaths of people rather than quit, then a no-fly-zone imposed by the U.N. could be a more likely possibility. I would think there are enough NATO air assets available to enforce it. I do think, however, that would help other governments de-legitimize their own protesters by pointing to Western intervention in Libya. Stop a massacre and possibly stunt the progress of other democratic uprisings, or watch a tyrant commit a bloodbath. lovely choice, it seems to me.

Priapist fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 21, 2011

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Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Owlkill posted:

Too loving right Qatari prime minister. Bout time the EU and NATO (or the Arab League or anyone else for that matter) stepped up to the plate and actually intervened in a genocide for once rather than sitting back tutting and then saying 'never again' once it's all over. I'm not calling for boots on the ground or anything like that but gently caress, you've got Italy, France and Spain (off the top of my head) all within striking distance, all with modern air forces. Surely a no-fly zone wouldn't be too controversial an idea.

None of those countries, or even the EU as a whole, will take action unilaterally. Even if they wanted to, they aren't within distance to enforce a no-fly zone without U.S. aerial refueling, AWACS, and Naval support. The EU isn't heavy on power-projection military capabilities. The U.S. will have to take the lead under a NATO umbrella, and that likely won't happen without a Security Council directive. Considering China's relationship with Libya, Russia's ties, and the overall skepticism of U.S. intentions in that part of the world, I don't see a U.N. mandate happening, either.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Cjones posted:

Guy on AJE just said they're using anti-aircraft weapons on protesters :psyduck:

This would explain the injuries shown in the video posted earlier.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

ChaosSamusX posted:

What if a less hated country like Canada or Denmark intervened?

They couldn't. They just don't have the military capability to project power on short notice that far from home. Nor do the EU powers on their own - even nearby countries like Italy. Only the U.S. has the ability to maintain sustained operations required to take and retain control of Libyan airspace should the U.N. call for a no-fly zone. That would involve carrier air, aerial refueling, and AWACS.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Boner Slam posted:

I am pretty sure the European countries can reach and control airspace on their border. At least they had no trouble reaching Serbia.
Awacs I think they have and carriers they don't need.
That the airforces should be sufficient to deal with any air threat in Lybia.


So yes, the EU certainly could intervene. But will they? Should they? I dunno.

Serbia was a short hop from German and Italian NATO bases - and the U.S. Air Force conducted the majority of sorties over the Balkans. I think you're underestimating the scope of operations required to forcefully take control of airspace the size of Libya. It's going to take U.S. combat power. Period. It will involve the EU, but not alone.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
Back to blaming America for everything. Gonna party like it's 1986.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
This is the worst storytime ever.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
This guy was just a minute or two away from not existing in 1986. Thanks, whoever warned him! (Craxi)

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
This is the Muammar Gaddafi we all knew and loved from my childhood. I think I need to dig out my old "Iron Eagle" VHS tape.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Ace Oliveira posted:

Does anyone know if the US is sitting this one out? Are they going to enforce the No Fly Zone along with the Europeans or not?

Also, Al Jazeera just said that the Turks are going to join the No Fly Zone now.

The U.S. is already there with Navy and land-based assets. It remains to be seen if they'll take part in combat operations or just provide radar, air refueling, etc. support and let the Europeans take point.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

FlamingLiberal posted:

Is the US supposed to be participating in the No-Fly Zone? Or are we just going to lob cruise missiles at Libya?

Considering cruise missiles are designed to destroy fixed targets such as airfields, radar, and command-and-control facilities, that in itself is participation in the NFZ. I'm sure there is also major involvement that doesn't involve munitions delivery: AWACS, refueling, intelligence etc. The U.S. is probably providing most of the satellite imaging.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Stroh M.D. posted:

Cruise missiles feels a little crude to be honest. If we're only dealing with SA-5/6 in small and badly maintained numbers, and the odd ZPU, SLAMMERS could have done the job with a smaller risk of collateral.

There's more to Libya's air defense than that. They're likely targeting the control nexus: air defense command and control and radar installations. The missile sites themselves are secondary.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
Odyssey Dawn is a porn star's name.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Koesj posted:

Might be the french aircraft being claimed over tripoli was actually a cruise missile being shot down?!?!

Entirely possible. The U.S. also used decoy drones against Iraq (both times) to bait them into activating their air defenses so they could be targeted. Those are meant to be disposable and could have been what was shot down.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

breaklaw posted:

I just realized something, where is Secretary Gates at? Who's been speaking for the DoD? Anyone?

It was mentioned earlier on one of the news outlets that he was scheduled to leave for a trip to Russia but delayed it a day to deal with the start of this conflict.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Boner Slam posted:



Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

farraday posted:

Hearts and motherfucking minds, woooo. I'm looking forward to one day having a professional military.


The rescue unit most likely are vets of Afghanistan or Iraq, where they often did come under fire while picking up downed pilots. Itchy trigger fingers, etc. They also had no idea going in who were rebels and who were Gaddafi loyalists.

Details of what happened are sketchy, but so far it appears none of those hit have died. It was also mentioned that the injured boy was hit in the leg. If the crew were shooting to kill there would be dead people for sure. They very well may have been trying to fire warning shots into the ground to keep the crowd back, but bullets do fragment and the injuries could turn out to be from that.

But please, do continue with the "Hurr stupid American barbarians" talk before all the facts are in.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

ibroxmassive posted:

Went to a seminar run by two international law professors today, one stated that he thinks that the ambiguity of the resolution would allow for ground forces to be used in some capacity, as long as an argument could be made that they're not an occupying force.

Both thought the actions taken are the right thing to do as well.

I think the coalition has already interpreted it this way. I'll have to dig for the source, but I do recall a quote from a UK military briefing that stated ground forces were not completely out of the question (paraphrase.)

The door is open for special forces (possibly already happening) to provide forward air control and coordination with rebels. It could extend beyond that, but the rebels would have to be the ones holding territory at the end of the day.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
I despise the idea of revenge killings of Qaddafi supporters, but I would support the televised shaving of this guy's flavor savor. It's really annoying me.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
The situation at the Rixos on CNN is making me nervous as hell. That one Qadaffi guy left in the lobby is getting really pissed.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

quote:

@mchancecnn: Is this looking too easy? I'm worried

I think he's referring to the possibility of a "rope-a-dope" strategy on Qaddafi's part. I don't think MQ's sons would have been captured in such a scenario, however.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Arkane posted:

Codebreakers, stat

Perhaps poo poo started going down at the hotel? BBC reported that the hotel used by the Libyan govt. for press conferences was under attack by rebels. Is that the same one the CNN crew is at?

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

KillerKatten posted:

:nms:/:nws: http://i.imgur.com/5joK5.jpg :nms:/:nws:

That's one of the photos from the Bin Laden raid with Qadaafi's face over it. The neon-green toy gun under his shoulder is the giveaway.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!
The defining image for anti-tyranny revolts in the 21st century is a dude in flip-flops and board shorts hoisting a flag over Muammar Qaddafi's compound.

Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Arkane posted:

Gaddafi's weather machine just hit the East Coast of the United States with an earthquake

People in New York City are reporting feeling it on Twitter. What the gently caress?

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Priapist
Aug 10, 2002

Heeeere's Herbie!

Brown Moses posted:

Here we go

Did I hear correctly the BBC audio report mentioned a U.S. Congressman was in the hotel? Who would it be?

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