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By request from another thread... I grew up in the Satmar community in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. The Satmars are a large, strict, anti-Zionist Hasidic Jewish sect composed originally of Hungarian Holocaust survivors and their descendants (though I am not actually Hungarian). There are over 100K of them, mostly in Williamsburg and in the horrifying village of Kiryas Joel about an hour out of the city. I am a woman, and as such I was taught that I was unable to enter into a covenant with G-d and thus had no need to learn Hebrew beyond prayers, the Torah, or any deep theological or kabbalist knowledge, so I may not be much help there. However, I can answer pretty much any question about women's lives, education, marriage, family life, Satmar customs, and especially ultra-strict Kosher food (my father is a food dealer, plus like all Satmar women most of my education was concentrated on keeping a proper kosher home). I can also answer questions about leaving Hasidism. I ran away when I was 16 after my parents announced my engagement, and spent a couple years living with groups of other ex-Hasids. In the nearly 15 years since leaving, I have gotten my GED, AA, BA, and PhD, have lived in Chicago, Spain, Taiwan, China, and now Atlanta, and am currently an assistant professor there. Although I am still a practicing Jew, there is not a day that goes by when I don't thank G-d that I left. I am still active in the ex-Hasid community (though not as much as I used to be), and can answer questions about that as well. Some links and notes: 1. I will be translating Yiddish terms into English as much as possible for the benefit of non-speakers. For my fellow Jews, I can't read Hebrew beyond a few basic words, and though Yiddish is my native language, I've become extremely rusty through years of nonuse coupled with mastering my second language (English) and adding two others for my academic work. Please keep this in mind if I screw up a term and help me if you can! 2. The general perception of Hasidic life is that the rebbe controls and dictates everything. While this is true to a certain extent, there is a good deal of variation even among Satmars as to particular customs, so I may reference something that contradicts your knowledge. It doesn't mean either of us are wrong, just that our experiences are different. 3. Because I know I'm going to be asked, the hole-in-the-sheet thing is a myth. As is the displaying of bloody sheets to attest to virginity. Link to Satmar Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_%28Hasidic_dynasty%29 A very sad story about a fellow Satmar woman and her custody battle following her departure from the sect: http://nymag.com/news/features/48532/ Ask away!
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Feb 21, 2011 18:59
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Did they explain away your sub-standard Hebrew education with the "women are naturally close to G-d and therefore don't need to learn this stuff the way men do" thing? When you were in school growing up, were there kids who wandered outside the community to see things or did everyone pretty much accept the insularity of the community without question? What would you estimate the dropout rate for Hasidic kids is once they reach adulthood? Is there a contingent that leaves the community or is it a rare thing? I once had a friend-of-a-friend who used to be Hasidic, but mostly he told stories where he used his knowledge of Yiddish to be a smart-rear end when people were talking about him thinking he didn't understand (at that point he'd shed all trappings of his former lifestyle. He had a great one about being in a hot tub once when talk of infidelity was going on, but this is your thread.)
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Feb 21, 2011 19:26
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My parents and grandparents are always bemoaning that Yiddish is a dying language and that we kids don't know it and won't be able to carry it on (and whose fault is that? Not us kids'...). Do you see Yiddish that way? If you have kids (or plan on having kids), will you teach them Yiddish?
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Feb 21, 2011 19:30
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I was hoping you'd do this after the discussion in the other thread. I grew up around Amish people in central Ohio, and I'm fascinated by people who leave closed societies and strike out on their own. I have a couple of questions for you. 1. You say you're still practicing Judaism. What, for lack of a better term, style? Reformed? Conservative? In the fifteen years since you left, were you practicing the whole time, or were you lapsed for a while? 2. Back in '04, This American Life did a segment on a Hacidic guy named Chaim that dropped out, joined a punk band, went crazy, then got back into the fold, got married and became a good Jewish boy again. Have you heard this story? How common is it for Hacidic kids to drop out, go crazy for a bit, then go back to their families/old lives? 3. This probably is obvious, but I take it that options for women are severely limited, yes? I've heard, from Jews who were not Hacidic and probably had an axe to grind, that women are expected to do the lion's share of the work around the house and bring in money because the men are too busy reading the Torah and studying to do any work. And due to the men not working that many of the families were on state aid. Can you speak to that at all? 4. Thanks so much for doing this.
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Feb 21, 2011 19:42
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jojoinnit posted:Did they explain away your sub-standard Hebrew education with the "women are naturally close to G-d and therefore don't need to learn this stuff the way men do" thing? Sometimes, but I more often heard the whole "women were not included in G-d's covenant" argument. I always found both to be rather stupid. quote:When you were in school growing up, were there kids who wandered outside the community to see things or did everyone pretty much accept the insularity of the community without question? Sure. Keep in mind that I did not grow up in any kind of physical isolation from the outside world--it was Williamsburg! The Satmar community in Kiryas Joel began precisely because of the difficulty of shutting out secular influences in Williamsburg. It was extremely easy to get on the subway and ride around to your heart's content, though of course that behavior was never promoted. It's actually how I got started on my road to Not Spending My Life Cooking and Cleaning. quote:What would you estimate the dropout rate for Hasidic kids is once they reach adulthood? Is there a contingent that leaves the community or is it a rare thing? quote:I once had a friend-of-a-friend who used to be Hasidic, but mostly he told stories where he used his knowledge of Yiddish to be a smart-rear end when people were talking about him thinking he didn't understand (at that point he'd shed all trappings of his former lifestyle. He had a great one about being in a hot tub once when talk of infidelity was going on, but this is your thread.) Please tell this story! quote:My parents and grandparents are always bemoaning that Yiddish is a dying language and that we kids don't know it and won't be able to carry it on (and whose fault is that? Not us kids'...). Do you see Yiddish that way? If you have kids (or plan on having kids), will you teach them Yiddish? No kids and no immediate plans to have any (although at 30 the clock's a-ticking), but if I did, absolutely. Without hesitation. It's a beautiful language and I wish I had more of a chance to practice it. quote:1. You say you're still practicing Judaism. What, for lack of a better term, style? Reformed? Conservative? In the fifteen years since you left, were you practicing the whole time, or were you lapsed for a while? It's hard to pin myself down religiously. I agree with many, if not most, of the tenets of Reform Judaism, but I wish they showed more interested in preserving Jewish customs. I don't think that every Jew should live like a Hasid (actually I don't think ANYONE should), but it's frustrating to meet Jews who don't know extremely basic customs and tenets of Jewish law. I do not attend shul regularly, but when I do I generally go to Orthodox congregations. I was lapsed for about two years during the requisite RELIGION IS EVIL!!! phase that most ex-religious go through, but I feel more spiritually sound, for lack of a better phrase, now that I've reached a happy medium. quote:2. Back in '04, This American Life did a segment on a Hacidic guy named Chaim that dropped out, joined a punk band, went crazy, then got back into the fold, got married and became a good Jewish boy again. Have you heard this story? How common is it for Hacidic kids to drop out, go crazy for a bit, then go back to their families/old lives? I have indeed, and it is very common for dropouts to return to the fold, particularly women. Virtually all the dropouts I've met, myself included, went through a period of intense culture shock, and many people just can't get over that. Plus, life in Hasidic (and particularly Satmar) communities does not prepare one for life in the real world. Take my experience, for example: I was a tenth-grade dropout, even if I'd finished my school would not have been accredited for any college, I had no job experience whatsoever, I had no family to support me, I couldn't even work as a waitress because I didn't even know what loving sushi was, and I lived in one of the most expensive cities on earth. I was extraordinarily lucky to be enrolled in a work-study program for high school dropouts still in their teens--I went to regular high school in the day and worked as a movie theatre usher at night. If I had not had that program, I probably would have gone back. What else could I have done? quote:3. This probably is obvious, but I take it that options for women are severely limited, yes? I've heard, from Jews who were not Hacidic and probably had an axe to grind, that women are expected to do the lion's share of the work around the house and bring in money because the men are too busy reading the Torah and studying to do any work. And due to the men not working that many of the families were on state aid. Can you speak to that at all? Your friends are right to a certain extent. Almost no Hasidim, men or women, attend college or professional training, so it isn't just the women who have lovely opportunities. But to be a Satmar woman is to have a terrible lot--your life centers around cooking, cleaning, and childrearing. If you have a job at all, ever, in your life, it will be as a secretary or assistant in your father or husband's business or as a teacher in a Hasidic school, and you will almost certainly stop working as soon as you have a child. The attitude towards women working is shifting away from "women belong in the home without exception" to something closer to what you described, but it's still uncommon, at least in my experience, for mothers to work, unless it's part-time minor work when the children are grown. It's difficult for Satmar mothers to work because of the extraordinary demands placed upon them by community custom. My mother was responsible for the care of five children and a husband, the cleaning of the apartment, and the cooking of all meals. This sounds hard but doable, yes? Not so much when you factor in that she had to make sure every single crumb of food that entered our house was composed entirely of Satmar-approved kosher sources (just checking for a kosher stamp was emphatically NOT ENOUGH), cook it all by hand and in accordance with strict Mosaic law, make sure that she wasn't violating custom with her cleaning habits (surprisingly easy), police the children for inappropriate behavior ranging from fighting to bringing home a picture of non-kosher animals, maintain the religious devotions that took place at home, AND do all the cooking and cleaning for shabbat and holidays ahead of time. I can't imagine how she could possibly have added a job to all this. You're right about the emphasis on men learning Torah and studying. Actually, as lovely as my "secular" education was, it was way better than my brothers' because they had to spend all their time in their religion classes. Studying Torah comes first before anything--my sister's husband missed the birth of their first child because he was studying, and nobody batted an eye. quote:4. Thanks so much for doing this. You're welcome! It's so weird to be thinking about all of this again, it's been awhile!
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Feb 21, 2011 20:58
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What kind of things to Satmar men do for work? I know that in Israel many Hasidic families basically live off of welfare so that the men can study Torah all day, but I can't see that happening in the U.S.. Do any work for secular companies or do they all work for/own a community business?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:09
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Great thread! Have you ever encountered another runaway that has adapted and succeeded like yourself? Do you visit your family? If so, are they accepting of your choice?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:09
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What's the extent of Satmar opposition to Zionism? Have you read Vayoel Moshe? Do you still adhere to that point of view, or have you discarded it?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:16
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Fascinator posted:Sometimes, but I more often heard the whole "women were not included in G-d's covenant" argument. I always found both to be rather stupid. As for my story it basically goes like this; The ex-Hasid was staying in a hotel where there was also a diamond convention or summat like that going on. They had one of those communal hot tubs, and he was in it with my other friend when three Hasidic guys get in. Assuming that noone would understand them they begin speaking in Yiddish about the strip clubs they planned on attending that weekend as well as comparing the different girls they'd been with. So this guy is listening to all of this without displaying any apparent understanding or interest. When my friends decide to leave, they get out of the tub, and grab their towels. At this point the ex-Hasidic guy (who I've already mentioned was a smartass) walks to the edge of the hot tub and says to the Hasidim in Yiddish "I have a great idea. How about when you get back, you sleep with his wife, you sleep with his wife and you sleep with his wife, and then you can all compare.  "
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Feb 21, 2011 21:18
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ChipNDip posted:What kind of things to Satmar men do for work? I know that in Israel many Hasidic families basically live off of welfare so that the men can study Torah all day, but I can't see that happening in the U.S.. Do any work for secular companies or do they all work for/own a community business? The welfare thing does happen, and is actually a common feature of ultra-religious communities with traditional gender roles and large families (fundie Mormons are particularly well-known for having giant families and putting them all on welfare). My parents received assistance when I was growing up, and it was not uncommon (though not even remotely universal of course). Kiryas Joel, the other big Satmar community, has a much higher rate of welfare recipients than the Williamsburg community I grew up in. Kiryas Joel has a higher rate of just about anything actually (family size, creepiness, etc). Satmar men generally do one of three things: they study Torah, work for Orthodox or Hasidic Jews in skilled labor (often in the diamond industry), or they own their own businesses that operate entirely within the community. My father is one of the latter; he is a dealer and distributor of Satmar-friendly kosher foods. My older sister's husband works in industrial diamond-cutting, my younger sister's husband studies Torah, and my two brothers work with my father. quote:Great thread! Thanks! I actually do not know another ex-Hasid that has an advanced degree (I don't necessarily think of it as "success"), but I'm sure there are some out there. I know several who lead happy, fulfilling lives outside the community though. One actually operates a dog rescue--this is unusual because most urban Hasids fear and avoid dogs. I do not visit my family. When I left, they pleaded with me to come back, but when I didn't--and when I enrolled in college and began to openly date a goy--they sat shiva for me. As though I was dead. That hurt more than anything. I actually still talk to my older sister a couple times a year--she keeps me up to speed on everyone but doesn't tell my family about it. I have spoken to my younger sister twice since I left, but to my parents and brothers not at all.
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Feb 21, 2011 21:26
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QuentinCompson posted:What's the extent of Satmar opposition to Zionism? Have you read Vayoel Moshe? I have indeed read it, and if you have it does a much better job of outlining Satmar opposition to Zionism than I could. But for the people here who don't want to delve into the whole thing, I'll just summarize the Satmar attitude towards Zionism here. Basically, Satmars oppose the creation of the State of Israel on the grounds that the Talmudic interpretation of the Torah states that Jews must wait for G-d to establish Israel and that any attempt to do so on our part will delay the coming of the messiah. We are not to force the creation of Israel, or fight other nations for it. The Vayoel Moshe also makes clear that Satmars who live in Israel are not allowed to vote or speak Modern Hebrew, and that Zionism is to blame for the Holocaust. I no longer adhere to most of the ideas outlined in the Vayoel Moshe. However, I am not a supporter of the Israeli state in general, or of its treatment of Palestineans in particular. But I would prefer not to potentially derail this thread by discussing that any further, as I know it's an unpopular viewpoint among other Jews. Jojoinnit, that story ruled. I wish people would say incriminating things in Yiddish in front of me 
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Feb 21, 2011 21:37
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What are relations like between the different groups of Hasidim in Brooklyn? Is there some kind of pan-Hasidic solidarity going on? Or do the Hasidim in Williamsburg or Boro Park, for example, look down on the Crown Heights Lubovitch's because of their semi-proselytizing activities? Or maybe the Williamsburg Hasidim look down on the Boro Park people because Boro Park is just a really boring place?
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Feb 21, 2011 21:50
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Earwicker posted:What are relations like between the different groups of Hasidim in Brooklyn? Is there some kind of pan-Hasidic solidarity going on? Or do the Hasidim in Williamsburg or Boro Park, for example, look down on the Crown Heights Lubovitch's because of their semi-proselytizing activities? Or maybe the Williamsburg Hasidim look down on the Boro Park people because Boro Park is just a really boring place? That's another thing that's hard to quantify. There is somewhat of a pan-Hasidic solidarity (if I ran into another Hasid on the train we'd chat like old friends even though I could tell she was Bobov and I was Satmar), but on the other hand there are different Hasidic splinter groups for a reason. I noticed a particular distaste for Lubavitchers, because of their proselytizing and their pro-Israeli stance, but it wasn't a universal thing. There are a lot of pissing contests though--a lot of "well we are WAY more Jewish than you!" And there is an active contempt for both goyim and secular Jews. To treat someone "worse than a goy" is one of the nastiest things you can do to someone. On the other hand, intermarriage between rival Satmar courts and even other Hasidic groups is common. My sister-in-laws are both from Kiryas Joel, and one of my brothers-in-law was originally Bobov. The woman in the link in my OP, Gitty Grunwald, is the daughter of a Satmar-Lubavitch union (though they divorced very early on). You're right about Boro Park though.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:03
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What's the purpose of spelling God as "G-d"?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:05
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Fascinator posted:
I would love to hear more about this. I find keeping kosher a very interesting topic and would love to hear about "the woman's point of view." How does Satmar kosher vary from run of the mill kosher? What kind of thing could violate keeping things clean? You mention that children cannot bring in pictures of non kosher animals..so that means no books about the "Three little pigs?"
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Feb 21, 2011 22:10
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I read a novel called "The Breadgivers" recently...it was very good, and it actually stirred some interest in early American Jewish communities and families. Have you read it, and if so, would you say it's accurate? It's written by Anzia Yezierska. Very different and the father was horrible, though after rereading and attempting to understand I got him a bit more.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:11
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Oh and what are the "creepy" qualities of Kiryas Joel. Do you mean in a "Stepford Wives" kind of way or something else?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:13
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You said in the OP that you ran away when your parents announced your engagement. Could you tell us more about that? Are arranged marriages common amongst the Hasidic community?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:20
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Could you explain why Kiryas Joel is so awful? Do you keep in contact with your family/friends still in the Hasidic community? You say that many Hasidic kids break away but then return to the fold after an 'experimental' phase, so I assume that they haven't frozen you out or anything. And if it's not to much to ask, what do you have your PhD in? Thanks for the thread, interesting stuff!
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Feb 21, 2011 22:24
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Thanks for posting this thread, most of my initial questions were asked already so I'll limit myself to thanking you for now, it's very interesting to hear about these sorts of communities  I also really like Yiddish because I get to puzzle out the meaning of what's written with my German I can't quite do that when it's spoken but still.My grandmother looked pretty much exactly like Golda Meir and my uncle looks jewy as hell but all possible Jewish connections haven't ever been talked about in our family except for this last generation. That's just an aside that doesn't mean very much I guess but it still feels a little bit of a 'there but for the grace of whomever go I'. I'm looking forward to hearing more. edit: Oh yes, how much contact have you been able to maintain with the rest of your community? Were there long term repercussions from rejecting your betrothal?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:33
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Doctor Malaver posted:What's the purpose of spelling God as "G-d"? There's a prohibition on writing out the full word, either physically or digitally, because rendering the name of G-d on a paper makes it holy (this goes for Orthodox and Conservative Jews too if I'm not mistaken). For me it's really just a habit at this point--I don't really believe that if someone printed this thread it would have to be treated as sacred. quote:I would love to hear more about this. I find keeping kosher a very interesting topic and would love to hear about "the woman's point of view." How does Satmar kosher vary from run of the mill kosher? I found something I wrote to a friend about this several years ago! Let's play Keeping it Kosher the Satmar Way! 1. You are a Satmar housewife. It's time for dinner! Is it shabbat? 2. If so, you drat well better have prepared it beforehand. Have fun going hungry! 3. If not, let's make food! Are you tired? 4. Of course you are. Is your husband home? 5. No? Oh, good, you can prepare something simple for yourself and the kids, like tomato soup with grilled cheese sandwiches. Little Fascinator's favorite! 6. Is your cheese processed? 7. If so, no cheese for you! Processed cheese, even when certified kosher, can't guarantee a fully-kosher source. Clean entire kitchen to remove the taint of the processed cheese. 8. If not, make sure your cheese came from verifiable Hasidic-approved kosher sources. When it doubt, ask the rebbe! 9. Rebbe, is my cheese good? 10. No? Dispose of it and clean the entire kitchen to remove the taint of the secular cheeses. 11. Yes? Get out your bread! Is it Passover? 12. Yes? WHY IS THAT IN YOUR HOUSE YOU SINFUL MONSTER?! Clean entire kitchen twice to remove taint of chometz. 13. No? Ask the rebbe if the bread is okay. 14. Whew, it's alright! Even grocery store bread is usually okay, but it never hurts to check! Get out the tomato soup. 15. Is every ingredient in the soup verifiably sourced from Satmar-friendly kosher production? Ask the Rebbe! 16. The rebbe says that one of the preservatives in the soup is produced in a facility that makes non-kosher food preservatives. Not pork rinds or anything, just food that isn't certifiably kosher. Throw it away and clean the entire kitchen to remove the taint. 17. You have two choices: handmake the tomato soup from individual ingredients that are verifiable Satmar-kosher, or buy Satmar-kosher canned soup. The former will take you over an hour, thereby defeating the point of a quick meal. 18. Buy the canned soup. Soup for you and your five children will cost $20, because specialty ultra-kosher foods are subject to monopolistic price gouging. A Campbell's soup for six will cost you $5 tops. Keep in mind that your family subsists entirely on one small income, and your husband is going to yell at you hardcore when he gets home. But you're just so tired, you just can't cook it from scratch! 19. You are now ready to cook! Are you in the right kitchen area? 20. You fool! This is the preparation area for meat meals! Tomato soup and grilled cheese is a dairy meal! Clean entire kitchen to remove taint. 21. Remove necessary pans and implements, making sure that they are not the meat dishes, or the Passover dishes. Yes, you own three complete kitchen sets. It's hard to keep track. 22. Cook tomato soup and grilled cheese. 23. Eat. 24. Clean entire kitchen. 25. Your husband is home! He wants a different meal, and also he has decided that your household will no longer use products certified by the Israeli Orthodox Union because he heard a rumor that a factory certified by them in Tel Aviv used leftover machines from a plant that was owned by a pork-rendering facility. The machines in question never touched pork, but still. Go through entire kitchen purging, then clean entire kitchen to remove taint. quote:What kind of thing could violate keeping things clean? Mostly ingredients in cleaning supplies and the timing of the cleaning. Custom forbids performing certain kinds of work on certain holidays, and remembering them all is rather hard. Also, some cleaning agents contain non-kosher ingredients or are produced by companies that make non-kosher food, so you have to constantly be aware of that. quote:You mention that children cannot bring in pictures of non kosher animals..so that means no books about the "Three little pigs?" This is not a hard and fast rule, though it was in my home and in several others I knew. Basically you can't have images of people (idolatry), or of non-kosher animals (including dogs and cats), because the house is considered an extension of the Temple. Plenty of families do not follow these rules, or only follow them partially--I even knew a girl with a Barbie, though she had to keep it covered up. quote:I read a novel called "The Breadgivers" recently...it was very good, and it actually stirred some interest in early American Jewish communities and families. Have you read it, and if so, would you say it's accurate? It's written by Anzia Yezierska. Unfortunately, I've never read it. I'll have to look into it though! quote:Oh and what are the "creepy" qualities of Kiryas Joel. Do you mean in a "Stepford Wives" kind of way or something else? The people who live in Kiryas Joel are people who have decided that life NYC Hasidic communities is too secular for them. Chew on that for a second. Hasidism, for all its negative portrayals, really does emphasize the joy of devotion. There are assholes everywhere, but most Hasids I've known are friendly people. Kiryas Joel, from what I've seen, lacks that joy and friendliness. The people there are extremely hardline, and are very intrusive. There is actually a secret police there--they'll report you for driving on shabbat, if someone tells them you have a forbidden book in your house they'll come and demand you produce it, they'll trail you if you go into forbidden stores, they'll report women who are insufficiently modest (which could mean anything from touching a man before marriage to being covered up but looking good while doing so), that sort of thing. If that exists in Williamsburg, I either never knew or it postdates me. The link I posted in the OP goes into a lot more detail about that place. I generally do not refer to Hasidism as a cult, but Kiryas Joel absolutely is one.
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Feb 21, 2011 22:49
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Fascinator posted:I found something I wrote to a friend about this several years ago! Let's play Keeping it Kosher the Satmar Way! Also, just about every kosher kitchen I've ever seen has the kitchenware kept separately and they look totally different so you don't ever confuse them. Also, I highly doubt that a Satmer family has forgotten it's Passover and happens to have bread around, you clean beforehand, right? Also, Kiryas Joel sounds scary. Does that mean there's no escape, the community is closed in? You never leave to buy groceries or anything? Do they get internet service up there? Where do you buy clothes? And is it an actual incorporated town with a local government staffed entirely by Satmer Hasidim? How could they legally stop someone who wasn't Hasidic from buying a house and settling there? Sounds un-American, basically. Lastly, what is it with not being allowed to drive? I remember seeing Hasidic families in London only traveling by taxi, but I know I've seen Hasidic men behind the wheel sometimes. Are women not actually allowed to drive, or is it a cost issue of being able to afford two cars?
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Feb 21, 2011 22:59
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ML Rocket posted:You said in the OP that you ran away when your parents announced your engagement. Could you tell us more about that? Are arranged marriages common amongst the Hasidic community? Sure! I kind of hesitate to use the word "arranged" to describe Satmar marriage, but I suppose it's the best analogue. Different families do different things: some never allow the couple to meet until the wedding day, others arrange the marriage, tell them afterward, and allow them to meet before marriage (like my family), and still others do something very much like chaperoned dating: the parents and friends will introduce someone as a potential spouse, escort them to several meetings, and allow the couples to choose. I have heard of very few "love matches," but one thing I have never, ever heard of is a Satmar being forcibly married. I knew quite a few people of both genders who said "no, I don't like this person" and that was the end of it. Of course, it's hard to really gauge consent, particularly among women, in a community that values strict obedience. My case was somewhat unusual. 18-21 is the usual marriage age for Satmars, but for the year and a half leading to my engagement at 16 I had become a holy terror. I skipped school, refused to do my share of work, tried to wear makeup and secular clothes, bought a Pearl Jam tape, that sort of thing. My parents thought that I just needed to settle down, so they picked out a nice 19-year-old boy for me to marry. Of course I knew that I could just refuse to marry him, but I realized that just saying I didn't want to marry this guy would just result in a whole bunch of other men being lined up to marry me. There was no way out but to leave. My sister has since informed me that my former "fiance" is renowned for his knowledge of the Torah and above all for his kindness and devotion to his wife and children, so I don't think marriage to him would have been horrible or anything, and I definitely wasn't running away from him specifically. It just wasn't for me and I knew it. quote:Do you keep in contact with your family/friends still in the Hasidic community? You say that many Hasidic kids break away but then return to the fold after an 'experimental' phase, so I assume that they haven't frozen you out or anything. I do not keep frequent contact with any continuously-practicing Hasids. I talk to my sister, my childhood best friend, and my grandmother a couple times a year, but that's it. I maintain frequent contact with ex-Satmars, and with some prodigal Satmars who have returned to the community. Some do cut off contact with other dropouts when they return though, and I don't really blame them. quote:And if it's not to much to ask, what do you have your PhD in? History, though nothing even remotely related to Judaism.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:08
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jojoinnit posted:I kinda have to take issue there. While what you wrote is true, it's sort of painting the picture that people are buying cheese that they're in doubt about, then having to clean the kitchen when it turns out to not be okay. The fact is you would only buy Satmer-kosher cheese in the first place, same goes for canned soup and the rest of it. How common could it be that you're buying something thats got doubtful kashrus? Oh, sorry! I wasn't trying to imply that it's common to accidentally come home with a whole side of pork and then accidentally cook it with the dairy dishes or something, I originally wrote that to a non-Jewish friend in order to illustrate the complexity of kosher in general and Satmar kosher in particular. A non-Jew might not know about separate dishes and chometz. However, it is common for attitudes about "gray area" foods and additives to change frequently, and for there to be a range of acceptability. My father works as a food dealer to the community, and even then my mom sometimes accidentally brought home something that had been recently banned, or had an additive that was suspicious that she just didn't know about. Asking the rebbe about appropriate foods is extremely common, as is one's husband decreeing randomly that certain foods will no longer be eaten at home. quote:Also, Kiryas Joel sounds scary. Does that mean there's no escape, the community is closed in? You never leave to buy groceries or anything? Do they get internet service up there? Where do you buy clothes? Oh, you can leave KJ anytime you want. But what are you going to do with no education, no job experience, and not even basic knowledge of the outside world? KJ does try to be self-sufficient, but of course it's a small village and you have to leave for some things. Entry isn't controlled, but if they know you as a Satmar they've got their eye on you. KJ is unincorporated and is technically part of the town of Monroe. I don't know a whole lot about the zoning ordinances, but of course anyone is theoretically free to live there. But I can't imagine a non-Hasid wanting to. Hasids can drive, but since most of them live in large cities they just generally don't. Plus as you mentioned cars are expensive and most Hasids are poor. Of course no Hasid (or Orthodox Jew) is allowed to drive on shabbat.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:16
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I'm guessing she wrote that for a non jewish friend, who probably doesn't understand the intracacies of passover. And also to show how anal kashrut can be edit: beaten
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Feb 21, 2011 23:20
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Thanks for answering my questions. I've got a couple more if you don't mind. 1. We have a pretty large Hacidic population here in the Detroit area, so much so that when the 696 bypass bisected their neighborhood, two special bridges were built over the freeway that are essentially walking parks so that they people could get from their homes to temple on Shabbat. I've always wondered if there are Hacidic skilled tradesmen. Are there carpenters or plumbers or mechanics in the community, or do they farm that work out to other people? 2. Have you read Foreskin's Lament by Shalom Auslander? If so, what was your opinion of the book?
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Feb 21, 2011 23:32
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BSAKat posted:Thanks for answering my questions. I've got a couple more if you don't mind. There are a lot of skilled tradesmen among Hasids--what you almost never see is professionals. The only really visible non-Satmars who worked within my community were the people who taught secular classes--they required teaching certifications that Satmars almost never get. Of course, when you see non-Satmars working in the community, they're almost always Orthodox Jews or other Hasidim, not goyim or secular Jews. I did read it, and found it very funny, though I kind of thought he was channeling Roth a bit too much.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:41
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Very interesting thread OP. How did you pay your way through college? Did you work the whole time? Was it an expensive school? I couldn't imagine doing it without the support of my parents, but I suppose that plenty make it through fine without that. As a professor, are you mostly teaching, or do you still do research?
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Feb 21, 2011 23:48
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^ I worked restaurant and retail jobs and was supported by loans during my AA and BA, I was paid in my PhD program, and I'm a new prof, so I have a ridiculous teaching load, though I'm starting work on a book based on my dissertation.
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Feb 21, 2011 23:52
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I live in Antwerp, a city with a relatively high population of Hasidic jews. How well integrated is the Hasidic community? The Hasidic jews in Antwerp are extraordinarily isolated. There is barely any interaction with the general populace, aside an amusing anecdote of a friend who was asked to turn off a machine on Sabbat while he was biking home from a party. We know they are responsible for a big deal of the local economy but so far it seems like they're content to be left alone and to not be bothered.
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Feb 22, 2011 00:32
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I know of no Hasidic community that is integrated into the world around it in any significant way. Really, that would defeat a lot of the purpose of Hasidism. As I mentioned, Satmars and Hasids in general are usually pretty friendly people, but they really aren't interested in assimilation.
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Feb 22, 2011 01:00
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What was your doctoral research about?
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Feb 22, 2011 01:25
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What was the connection to United States in Kiryas Joel (or other Hasidic communities you were living in). Did people consider themselves Americans, was there any nationalism, did you follow news and discuss about them from country viewpoint, anything like that? Or is U.S. simply considered a place to live, and it wouldn't matter if you lived in some other country.
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Feb 22, 2011 01:33
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Did your parents crack down on your younger sister after you ran away? Was there ever a threat they would have come after you to make you come home? You said you talk with your grandma too. Is she more lenient about you running away, or does she think you'll come back? More about your home stuff: I understand dating wasn't quite allowed, but what happened to teenagers if they were found dating, or worse yet, there was a teen pregnancy?
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Feb 22, 2011 01:44
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Fascinator posted:I know of no Hasidic community that is integrated into the world around it in any significant way. Really, that would defeat a lot of the purpose of Hasidism. As I mentioned, Satmars and Hasids in general are usually pretty friendly people, but they really aren't interested in assimilation. Chabad.
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Feb 22, 2011 02:24
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Is there any specific reason why the Satmar are so especially anal about Kashrut? Are organizations like the Orthodox Union too secular for them, or is it a more rebbe-knows-best situation of staying with the group?BSAKat posted:We have a pretty large Hacidic population here in the Detroit area, so much so that when the 696 bypass bisected their neighborhood, two special bridges were built over the freeway that are essentially walking parks so that they people could get from their homes to temple on Shabbat.
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Feb 22, 2011 02:24
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Living in Williamsburg, what was your community's general reaction to surrounding hipster gentrification? Do the Satmar have more of a problem with the secularity of their neighbors or the debauchery that spills over into the enclaves (although they are pretty well connected). I live in Brooklyn, and I've been so curious to hear a Hasidic perspective on the block-to-block infighting that goes on in the 'Burg. Its been going on slowly for decades now, so what did you think about it when you lived there? What do you think about the neighborhood now?
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Feb 22, 2011 02:38
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betaraywil posted:What was your doctoral research about? Rather not get into a whole lot of detail, as I've already given out way too much identifying information. But I study multiple nationalities, none of which have anything to do with modern Judaism, and I do not study the modern era. I suppose I could have parlayed my experiences with Satmar Hasidism into a thriving intellectual career, but to be honest I am really not interested in doing that. quote:What was the connection to United States in Kiryas Joel (or other Hasidic communities you were living in). Did people consider themselves Americans, was there any nationalism, did you follow news and discuss about them from country viewpoint, anything like that? Or is U.S. simply considered a place to live, and it wouldn't matter if you lived in some other country. This is another tough one. Of course, a Hasid is a Jew first and foremost, often to the exclusion of other identities. But as a population almost exclusively composed of immigrants and their recent descendants, there is an awareness of being American and above all a gratefulness to be here, where there is no serious organized Antisemitism and we are free to practice our religion and customs any way we want. Although there's a lack of overt patriotism and Hasidim are very wary of secular culture, I'd say that there is an overall positive attitude to being American. Kiryas Joel is a lot more negative, but doesn't have the millenarian, anti-government attitude that a lot of fringe Christian sects do. As for the news, there are exceptions, but in general Satmars keep up with things. Stricter families, like mine, did not take non-Yiddish papers (there are two Satmar papers, Der Yid and Der Blatt, and other Yiddish papers as well), but we still kept up with the news. I was long gone by then, but 9/11 was felt very keenly among New York's Hasidic community. quote:Did your parents crack down on your younger sister after you ran away? Was there ever a threat they would have come after you to make you come home? I think they were stricter with her, yes, but it's hard to tell. I know she spent a hell of a lot more time cooking and cleaning, but that would have happened if I'd been married. I know that they kept a closer watch on her and were very afraid she'd turn out like me. The possibility of them coming to take me back never entered my mind, really. They would have been well within their legal rights to do so as I was a minor, but the rebbe told them that I had to come back of my own will, otherwise they'd just be dealing with the same problems in a year or two. He said that as long as I was physically safe to keep their efforts to verbal pleading. quote:You said you talk with your grandma too. Is she more lenient about you running away, or does she think you'll come back? She lost all her family in the Holocaust, so I think that she is more motivated by not losing someone else than she is by any real sympathy or agreement with what I've done. We do not discuss anything other than family news. quote:More about your home stuff: I understand dating wasn't quite allowed, but what happened to teenagers if they were found dating, or worse yet, there was a teen pregnancy? To be honest, the dating thing rarely came up. First of all, you wouldn't have much opportunity to--schools are gender-segregated, and the boys spend their extra time studying Torah while the girls spend theirs helping their families. Moreover, there is generally someone accounting for your presence at all times, which is why I always got caught skipping school to ride the train around the city. I do remember a few cases, but it was generally "solved" by the couple getting married and wasn't looked at as a horrible, evil sin as long as nothing sexual had happened. As for teen pregnancy outside marriage, I've never heard of it happening. Human nature being what it is, I'm sure is has and does happen, but I've just never seen it. If it did, they would probably either get married quickly or get an abortion--termination isn't a sin in Judaism the way it is in popular Christianity. I will say that many young Satmar men are terrified of sex--my sister and my sister-in-law both reported that their husband sobbed with fear on their wedding night because they'd been taught all their lives that even masturbating was evil, but now if they didn't have sex on their wedding night, that would be evil too.
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Feb 22, 2011 02:41
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Doghouse posted:Chabad... ...being the major exception. I stand corrected! Sorry, I have very little actual experience with them! quote:Is there any specific reason why the Satmar are so especially anal about Kashrut? Are organizations like the Orthodox Union too secular for them, or is it a more rebbe-knows-best situation of staying with the group? Combination of the two. Not all Satmar oppose the OU, but many do, and it's a combination of the rebbe's various statements on individual cases, and a sense that the major kosher certifications are aimed towards Jews with a less rigid commitment to the law. I currently keep kosher in the style of a Conservative Jew--I don't eat pork, am fine with kosher certification regardless of what body, and sometimes I cheat because gently caress it, cheeseburgers rule, but am very strict on holidays. quote:Living in Williamsburg, what was your community's general reaction to surrounding hipster gentrification? Do the Satmar have more of a problem with the secularity of their neighbors or the debauchery that spills over into the enclaves (although they are pretty well connected). I live in Brooklyn, and I've been so curious to hear a Hasidic perspective on the block-to-block infighting that goes on in the 'Burg. Its been going on slowly for decades now, so what did you think about it when you lived there? What do you think about the neighborhood now? My life there predates the recent big hipster influx, but there was a lot of worry about encroaching gentrification and spillover from other ethnic enclaves. Generally Satmars ignore goyim ("what do they have to do with us?" was a frequent childhood refrain), but I think they're quite right to worry about the effects of gentrification and how it might affect their livelihood. As I'm sure you know, Williamsburg is currently in flux and has been for awhile, and this is something that my Satmar friends and family worry about but don't really take a whole lot of action on. I can't tell you how I feel about it now because I haven't set foot in Williamsburg since 1997, when I came back to get some of my things.
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Feb 22, 2011 02:51
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Don't bother, it's pretty gross.
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Feb 22, 2011 02:53
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