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Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

I'm a little ray of sunshine.


farcry posted:

Have we found out why the warren was flooded out?

Yes but it's been long enough since I read the books I can't remember the details. I believe it was the Tiste Edur who did it...basically they needed to get their ships to someplace else really quickly so with the help of some demons and the Crippled God's power they flooded a warren and then used it to float their ships to where they wanted them to be. I think this was all during their attack on the Letherii. There's also a scene in one of the later books, when the Malazan army is infiltrating Lether, where someone frees a demon that was being used as a slave soldier (I think) and the demon talks about how it was really a fisherman and their world was centered around some big river that was then used to flood the other warren, etc etc.

I think that's the basics of it

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Antinumeric
Nov 27, 2010

BoxGiraffe


Masonity posted:

I think a better way to describe it, rather than "using up" all the power, is with a sun analogy.

Assume the sun is up there, but the sky is a giant piece of blackout paper. So you can't see the sun. Now use a flat earth with the sun always overhead or this breaks down with day/night and all.

Using magic is taking a giant pole and poking a little hole in that paper. As a result, a little bit of light (magic energy) comes through. This magic energy can be manipulated by the people who can poke holes. The paper tries to heal itself though, so to keep using the power you have to keep that hole poked.

Now imagine lots of paper and lots of suns in different realities. That's what Quickben does when wielding multiple warrens. He's poking lots of holes at the same time and keeping them all poked.

People sensitive to light (magic) can see this ray of light breaking down, and roughly where it's hitting. As such, magic is detectable, and power draws power.

Now a full unveiling is ripping away ALL of the paper over that section of the world, so you can see the whole sun and some of the sky behind it too. This is a HUGE amount of light (power) compared to the usual pinpricks people make. Unfortunately, this also permanently damages the paper over that bit of sky, so there's a permanent hole/gate, or at least a very long term one.

Of course, poking these holes or even ripping the entire paper away doesn't "use up" the sun's energy, or the warren's magic. In fact, what gets through even without the paper is a tiny fraction of the power being radiated every second anyway. So yeah, even a full unveiling in multiple places across Wu wouldn't "use up" a warren. It'd simply allow more of it's power to radiate into Wu, rather than being bounced out into chaos.

Because chaos, is of course, space. It's where power that the warrens radiate off end up. That's why it's "between" the warrens. Inhabitable worlds are planets with atmospheres, bouncing back most or all of that power, and warrens themselves are suns.


This doesn't deserve to be at the bottom of the page, it's probably the best analogy for understanding warrens.

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


Masonity posted:

Because chaos, is of course, space. It's where power that the warrens radiate off end up. That's why it's "between" the warrens. Inhabitable worlds are planets with atmospheres, bouncing back most or all of that power, and warrens themselves are suns.

Uhm, I think you pushed the example too far in this case.

If something isn't revealed late in the series I don't think that "chaos" is "space". Nor that a warren is a sun. These are only examples.

I also don't think that warrens radiate powers into space/chaos.

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


Abalieno posted:

Uhm, I think you pushed the example too far in this case.

If something isn't revealed late in the series I don't think that "chaos" is "space". Nor that a warren is a sun. These are only examples.

I also don't think that warrens radiate powers into space/chaos.

No I think his analogy is pretty good for explaining warrens. Chaos is what is between the boundaries of the warrens, so "space" works out pretty well. Did you miss that he said it's an analogy?

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


Hondo82 posted:

No I think his analogy is pretty good for explaining warrens. Chaos is what is between the boundaries of the warrens, so "space" works out pretty well. Did you miss that he said it's an analogy?

But you see, what we call space isn't a magical force, it's mostly a void. Erikson wrote it the way it is for a reason so lets just not use any extratextual reasoning here

Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?


This is going to have whole series, and CAM offspin spoilers, so, yeah.



In GOTM, Raest said the following to K'rul. "You passed into the Realms of Chaos, returned to the place of your birth. You are among us no more."

In Orb, Sceptre, Throne we see Tayschrenn with "The maker". Tays had stepped into the first light or something similar, and was cleansed by it. It is where all life, all beings, are born from.

So that point of origin... It's chaos. Yet out of it, all of the flavours of magic can emerge.

In effect, chaos is one of two things. It's either pure magic, from which the warrens, holds and elder magic can be refracted from (a source of pure light), or the chaotic combination of all the warrens, of all the different flavours of light. Kind of like if you shined all possible wavelengths of light together. (a repository of pure light.)

We also know that Hairlock could travel through chaos, and that Toc spent a while wandering it, totally lost and alone (until he met his wolf buddy), in darkness.

So chaos is, in my analogy, either a meta-sun that magically powers all other suns and can therefore be stepped back into (in, say, a 4th dimension) as it must link all of the suns... Or it's space. It's between the warrens. The path between the warrens is quite simply the space between them. Which also explains how Hairlock went from travelling on the edges of warrens, beneath the notice of their inhabitants, to travelling through pure chaos. Warrens don't have a set boundary, but rather fade off into space. Warrens in their pure metaphysical form that is, not the constructs sentient minds shape with the powers of the warrens to create the "warrens" people travel through, places like Shadowthrone's realm which we already know is a non permanent model created from the warren's controllers minds.

For me, if chaos was the source of power, chaos would be at the heart of a warren. The fact that it's at the edges of a warren imply a more sun and space like construct to me. Chaos is simply all possible warrens mixed together, because they are all radiating off their power/presence, and most of it isn't going into worlds to be used as magic, but rather just bounced off into chaos to mix, mingle and create a tangled mess.

Also, chaos has been described as entropy. The chaos / darkness curse is pretty much a tribal/cultural interpretation for the eventual end of the universe, when space pulls itself so thin that matter cannot exist, when entropy finally wins. It's an analogy to what will quite literally happen to everything eventually, given that the expanding universe theory is true.


And no, space is mostly void of matter. It's pretty heavily packed with radiation. Seeing as we're using radiation, rather than mass, as power here, space/chaos would be pretty, well... chaotic. Tapping into chaos is basically tearing a hole in ALL the warren filters, including ones whos filter would ALWAYS be up and never tampered with. As such, chaos/space isn't the "source" of the power as such, the source is still ALL those warrens, but the flavour of power that comes through is identical to that in space, in chaos. It's chaotic. It's all warrens. It's a mix, a jumble.


Edit: Dragons are all born in chaos, then pass into reality.
Wu legend has it that there was a second moon, a giant dragon egg. When it broke, dragons filled into the world.

That's a direct analogy from Steven Eriksen himself between chaos, where dragons are born and space, where dragons were born in myth.

That said, I'm not claiming the sun in Wu is a warren, simply that on a different "level" of reality magic, warrens, space and worlds operate in a similar way to how radiation, stars, chaos and worlds operate. Only with different "ozone layers" for each sun, which are somehow magically manipulatable by sentient beings.

Masonity fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2012 around 10:11

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


I usually deal with this type of stuff linguistically because it usually leads to discover more aspects and it's always coherent.

Malazan is about the human point of view, so I usually restrain to look for a naturalistic explanation.

Yes, everything comes from chaos, because meaning is carved from chaos. Chaos is simply unregulated space. At the same time chaos is also fluid because it can be transformed and regulated, so you can subtract spaces from it the same way you create meaning from chaos.

And then there are thematic levels since chaos is about the lack of meaning, so alien to the human condition, etc...

"Space" implies a relative position when instead the warrens sit in their own dimensions and are blurred at their margins. They don't have a spatial location. While instead as linguistic constructs their "meaning" doesn't need to have a specific place. They just exist.

And if definitely seems that sentient minds shape warrens. Otherwise they wouldn't exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?


Abalieno posted:

I usually deal with this type of stuff linguistically because it usually leads to discover more aspects and it's always coherent.

Malazan is about the human point of view, so I usually restrain to look for a naturalistic explanation.

Yes, everything comes from chaos, because meaning is carved from chaos. Chaos is simply unregulated space. At the same time chaos is also fluid because it can be transformed and regulated, so you can subtract spaces from it the same way you create meaning from chaos.

And then there are thematic levels since chaos is about the lack of meaning, so alien to the human condition, etc...

"Space" implies a relative position when instead the warrens sit in their own dimensions and are blurred at their margins. They don't have a spatial location. While instead as linguistic constructs their "meaning" doesn't need to have a specific place. They just exist.

And if definitely seems that sentient minds shape warrens. Otherwise they wouldn't exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle


I think with erikson the answer is both the naturalistic point of view and the human view are right, depending what truth you are looking for. His world works in multiple ways, and if that is contradictory in parts, well belief systems are. And his story basically starts with the premiss "what if magic and creation myths were real?"

I agree that space is the wrong word for warrens and chaos. It was a model to better understand it. They are clearly based on a non spatial dimensional plane. I just meant that if we view warrens as star like energy sources, chaos is a space like void between the energy sources and the viable worlds, filled with magic from all warrens just as space is full of radiation from all nearby stars. Once you go into details on mass, rotations, closeness and all that the analogy fails, because it's "similar to, so we can better envision it" not "the same as".

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


The more you guys are trying to draw out the rules/laws/regulations/ and whatever other synonyms for this fantasy series (*linguistically*) you'll realize there are no rules in this fantasy series because Erikson didnt plan it all out beforehand and it all get contradicted ten times over the course of the series.

Masonity posted:

They are clearly based on a non spatial dimensional plane. I just meant that if we view warrens as star like energy sources, chaos is a space like void between the energy sources and the viable worlds, filled with magic from all warrens just as space is full of radiation from all nearby stars. Once you go into details on mass, rotations, closeness and all that the analogy fails, because it's "similar to, so we can better envision it" not "the same as".

Warrens don't have a spatial location. They can be accessed anywhere, from quon tali to genabackis to the lether continent. Except when they arent. Some warrens are located in an area. Like the whirlwind in raraku. Or a finnest, "Tool described them as "self-contained Omtose Phellack warrens". " What about Anomander Rake's sword? Contradictions abound, some better than others.

For newbies to the series wanting to know "what the gently caress are warrens" the astronomy analogy works well enough.

Kissing Dad
May 26, 2004



Hey quick question,

Is there anywhere I can look that just has a sort of world map that doesn't give anything away? I'm on the second book and would just Google it but yea....spoilers.

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


Anyone knew Steven Erikson held a Q&A on Reddit?

Here it is: http://www.reddit.com/user/StevenEr...fter=t1_c3vxshm

Starts from the bottom and goes on for about 5 pages. Interesting and insightful as usual.

I liked this:

You want the landscape to be as protean as the cultures living on it, just working on a slower pace of change.

Opal
May 10, 2005


What does that mean, exactly?

Crimson Dragoon
Jan 24, 2012

Sometimes you have to go against your family to save the world.


I'm sure it means that the land should change and be varied just like the people and cultures that live on it. It makes sense, especially coming from him, since he was an anthropologist and an archaeologist.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Yeah when I talked to him he spent a long time listing ways in which a lot of normal fantasy worldbuilding makes zero sense -- issues of geography mostly, cities in unsustainable positions, authors failing to account for the changes in terrain that would occur over stated time periods, etc. I wish I could remember all of it because it was really cool.

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



General Battuta posted:

Yeah when I talked to him he spent a long time listing ways in which a lot of normal fantasy worldbuilding makes zero sense -- issues of geography mostly, cities in unsustainable positions, authors failing to account for the changes in terrain that would occur over stated time periods, etc. I wish I could remember all of it because it was really cool.

It's cool that he puts in all the effort, but sort of silly in that no readers actually put this much thought into it or really care at all. I mean, his readership probably largely grew up with Dragonlance.

HeroOfTheRevolution fucked around with this message at Mar 4, 2012 around 08:43

FlyingCowOfDoom
Aug 1, 2003

let the beat drop


I'm on the last pages of Deadhouse Gates and its a pretty awesome series so far, can't wait for book 3.

FlyingCowOfDoom fucked around with this message at Mar 5, 2012 around 15:49

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



I come off as pretty critical of the Malazan series in this thread (partly because Erikson rubs me the wrong way whenever I read interviews with him), but I was dealing with a mouse problem yesterday and I remembered the line where Stormy or Gesler talks about how they cried when a mouse died in their hands towards the end of TCG. When I read that passage I remembered having tears well up; there was a pretty fantastic raw emotion in that line and it's stuck with me for over a year now.

Opal
May 10, 2005


I don't think anybody minds, and at any rate in my personal opinion we need a counterweight to people like Abeliano or whatever his name his. Erikson rubs me the wrong way too and I don't mind admitting that while I loved this series from beginning to end there are several things I outright disliked about it and which deserve criticism.

bigmcgaffney
Apr 19, 2009


HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

I come off as pretty critical of the Malazan series in this thread (partly because Erikson rubs me the wrong way whenever I read interviews with him), but I was dealing with a mouse problem yesterday and I remembered the line where Stormy or Gesler talks about how they cried when a mouse died in their hands towards the end of TCG. When I read that passage I remembered having tears well up; there was a pretty fantastic raw emotion in that line and it's stuck with me for over a year now.

TCG For me it was the scene with them and the dogs at the top of the tower. WJ, Trull, Toc... none of it hit as hard as that scene did.

Kinetica
Aug 16, 2011


Just finished the series, kinda sad about that. It was awesome, and the ending done very well I thought.

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



Midnight Tides:

So what is the general consensus on this book? I just can't seem to get into it like I did the others. I simply have no interest in Trull Sengar's side of the story, and it's incredibly dull for me, sure I'll probably get to see how he came to be shorn, but it's just not grabbing me. However, I really like Tehol and Bugg. Their banter is amusing, and Bugg is some kind of wizard or something, but I'm not sure what.

Antinumeric
Nov 27, 2010

BoxGiraffe


pakman posted:

Midnight Tides:

So what is the general consensus on this book? I just can't seem to get into it like I did the others. I simply have no interest in Trull Sengar's side of the story, and it's incredibly dull for me, sure I'll probably get to see how he came to be shorn, but it's just not grabbing me. However, I really like Tehol and Bugg. Their banter is amusing, and Bugg is some kind of wizard or something, but I'm not sure what.

I didn't enjoy Trull's character until Reapers Gale. After that I was able to go back and read Midnight Tides again and appreciate it much more. It might be the same for you.

Tehol and Bugg are awesome

whitey delenda est
Sep 14, 2008

Oh pirates yes they rob I
Sold I to the merchant ships



How far into it are you pakman? There's a couple of events that crank it up a notch. Stick with it, I thought the same thing initially but I was fistpumping along by the end of it.

Lyer
Feb 4, 2008



pakman posted:

Midnight Tides:

So what is the general consensus on this book? I just can't seem to get into it like I did the others. I simply have no interest in Trull Sengar's side of the story, and it's incredibly dull for me, sure I'll probably get to see how he came to be shorn, but it's just not grabbing me. However, I really like Tehol and Bugg. Their banter is amusing, and Bugg is some kind of wizard or something, but I'm not sure what.

Some people consider MT to be the best book in the series, I personally go with MoI, but it's a very good book once it gets going. The problem is that it starts off with brand new characters and a brand new setting when you've been deeply invested in a whole ton of other characters and continents and want to know what's going on with them. It is a very important book however in the grand scheme of things.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


Midnight Tides is one of my favorites, and I definitely had more trouble getting into it than any other book in the series besides Gardens. Once the story got going it was a very hard book to put down.

Ammanas
Jul 17, 2005

Voltes V: "Laser swooooooooord!"

Lyer posted:

Some people consider MT to be the best book in the series, I personally go with MoI, but it's a very good book once it gets going. The problem is that it starts off with brand new characters and a brand new setting when you've been deeply invested in a whole ton of other characters and continents and want to know what's going on with them. It is a very important book however in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, Midnight Tides is tough to stay in, because half of the book is character and world-setting, while the second half is just unbelievable batshit insanity. It really deserves to be read through.

Really big MT spoiler: Would you guys have preferred Brys stay dead after being poisoned? It fit the tragic outrage of how the story progressed; it was pretty cool when the guardian came for him but I think Erikson went a bit overboard with his resurrection spells in the end of MT.

Ammanas fucked around with this message at Mar 7, 2012 around 18:07

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



Stew Man Chew posted:

How far into it are you pakman? There's a couple of events that crank it up a notch. Stick with it, I thought the same thing initially but I was fistpumping along by the end of it.

Last night I just finished reading the part where Tehol arranges a contract with the rat-catcher guild, and where Brys was talked the Ceda about visiting the Azath and the being that showed the bringing down of a god (I am going to assume it was the Crippled God.) Rhulad became the emperor of the Edur in the previous chapter. The exact location is the first chapter in Book Three.

Monolith.
Jan 28, 2011

To save the world from the expanding Zone.


Is the first book important to read first? I accidentally started on the second one and now I'm half way through it.

Oh, maybe not. Well, either way, this is starting to become really cool.

Monolith. fucked around with this message at Mar 7, 2012 around 18:33

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


The second book drops a character reveal about two big characters in the first book (Shadowthrone and Cotillion's identities) but it's not really a spoiler that would ruin the first book for you (if anything it might help you understand it better). I think the resolution from the first book also gets spoiled, and some of the characters you're following (Kalam, Fiddler, Apsalar and Crokus) were all introduced in the first book. If you're already halfway in there's not really much you can do but I'd definitely recommend going back to Gardens of the Moon before hitting up Memories of Ice.

IncendiaC
Sep 25, 2011


Midnight Tides, IMO, is one of SE's last 'balanced' books, as the later novels start to increase in the oft-mentioned philosophizing (although Bonehunters isn't as bad). It's also probably got the best 're-readability' aside from Gardens. There's a shitton of hidden easter eggs and references you won't pick up until after you finish the series.

MT spoiler chat:Midnight Tides also probably has the best example of the 'grey area' that SE is so well-known about. During the clash at the Eternal Domicile, it's really hard to choose a side to root for, which makes it even better.
Also Tehol and Bugg are awesome, but you knew that already

Ammanas posted:

Really big MT spoiler: Would you guys have preferred Brys stay dead after being poisoned? It fit the tragic outrage of how the story progressed; it was pretty cool when the guardian came for him but I think Erikson went a bit overboard with his resurrection spells in the end of MT.

More big MT and RG spoilers:I didn't really mind Brys getting taken by the guardian but I hoped that he would have a bigger change when he got resurrected. I mean, you'd think that since he went through death and came back, the whole experience would change him. As it stands now however, he pretty just got an 1UP mushroom and went as if nothing happened.

Lunchtray
Jan 24, 2007
I was all of history's great robot actors. Acting Unit 0.8. Thespomat. David Duchovny!

IncendiaC posted:

More big MT and RG spoilers:I didn't really mind Brys getting taken by the guardian but I hoped that he would have a bigger change when he got resurrected. I mean, you'd think that since he went through death and came back, the whole experience would change him. As it stands now however, he pretty just got an 1UP mushroom and went as if nothing happened.

My understanding of Brys MT and RG spoilers thoughts drawn from Dust of Dreams further spoilers:
Hedge, Toc and Brys Kind-of explain why they come back without too much change. First it was because they were dead and ressurrected with this cold lifeless feeling that they just floated through trying to be themselves as an outward appearance and not really knowing their purpose. Then later they say they can finally be themselves again once Rake kills Hood and they're free or something. I don't think they come back with any real point until someone/something uses them as a tool to accomplish...stuff.

Lunchtray fucked around with this message at Mar 7, 2012 around 20:14

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


I'm lucky I just finished Toll the Hounds or I would have been spoiled pretty bad there

Opal
May 10, 2005


Ammanas posted:

Really big MT spoiler: Would you guys have preferred Brys stay dead after being poisoned? It fit the tragic outrage of how the story progressed; it was pretty cool when the guardian came for him but I think Erikson went a bit overboard with his resurrection spells in the end of MT.

Absolutely, I wish he would have been allowed to stay dead. Bringing him back rendered the whole exercise pointless for me.

Lord Dekks
Jan 24, 2005



I'm not sure if there is a easy way to answer this, but how can I tell if this series is for me? I'm halfway through the first book, which people seem very mixed over, and finding it a real slog and so far has not made me want to read the next one at all.

I do like the idea of it being grand in scope and the different races/species/factions etc, and the idea of warrens sound quite interesting, but so far the writing has put me off. I also find it the author constantly jumps from one scene or character to another, and as I'm reading it on my Kindle, its not easy to flick back and forth in the book to remind myself of who's who and related to which plotline etc.

I don't want to write off the whole series just because of the first book, which people in this thread have divided opinion over, but I also don't want to start reading the second book and to also find it a massive slog (Once I start a book I feel I have to finish it).

HeroOfTheRevolution
Apr 26, 2008



I didn't care much for the first book and it took me awhile to get through it. It gets much better once you get to the second, believe me.

Sir Bruce
Jul 8, 2004



I was in the same boat while reading the first book. I'd at least give the second book a try since it has a better story, better writing, and the POV switches are a lot less confusing.

BananaNutkins
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.


Lord Dekks posted:

I'm not sure if there is a easy way to answer this, but how can I tell if this series is for me? I'm halfway through the first book, which people seem very mixed over, and finding it a real slog and so far has not made me want to read the next one at all.

I do like the idea of it being grand in scope and the different races/species/factions etc, and the idea of warrens sound quite interesting, but so far the writing has put me off. I also find it the author constantly jumps from one scene or character to another, and as I'm reading it on my Kindle, its not easy to flick back and forth in the book to remind myself of who's who and related to which plotline etc.

I don't want to write off the whole series just because of the first book, which people in this thread have divided opinion over, but I also don't want to start reading the second book and to also find it a massive slog (Once I start a book I feel I have to finish it).

The first book is a little iffy because some of the prose is hard to read, and that compounds the issue of being dropped into a strange universe and plot that is running full tilt.

The second book is very well written, fast paced, and full of interesting characters.

The third book was so bad that I will probably never read another book in the series. I couldnt care about any of the characters, the magic system got out of hand, too many side plots were presented, and resurrections get handed out like candy, long winded meeting scenes where nothing happens are followed up by long winded meeting scenes where nothing happens, every viewpoint character spends the first half of the chapter giving an introspective monologue, etc. There really are a lot of things I can't stand about this book, but take my opinion as subjective, of course. Lots of people have said Memories of Ice is their favorite book.

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001



New interview with SE on Tor.com. Some very interesting stuff:

Erikson posted:

This is probably a good opportunity to advise potential readers of the Kharkanas trilogy: there will be a shift in style going on, and accordingly if you expect a seamless continuity of style between the Malazan Book of the Fallen and the Kharkanas series, you may be in for a surprise.
Less philosophizing that people love to harp on, perhaps?

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/03/st...+and+Stories%29

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


^^^^
My worry was that the Kharkanas books would have way more of the philosophizing, as the Tiste Andii seemed like the most inward looking race with the longest internal monologues.

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Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?


Fuzzy Mammal posted:

New interview with SE on Tor.com. Some very interesting stuff:

Less philosophizing that people love to harp on, perhaps?

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/03/st...+and+Stories%29

It's going to be written in first person, from the perspective of a single mote of dust, floating around Kharkanas, witnessing what winds will.

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