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Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?


Decius posted:

Finished it now and I liked it quite a bit (disclaimer: I also liked the other ICE books). Writing again has improved and the plot was mostly very interesting. The characters were mostly very much as they are in Erikson's hands Lady Envy was the exception for me.

I had only one issue with the book: When the Malazan Army makes their stand against the Seguleh. Firstly - crossbows should work very nicely, no reason to fight this as pitched melee battle. I know ICE removed the mages and munition for just that reason, but the soldiers should still have ranged weaponry. Enough bolts and the Seguleh can't evade/deflect them any longer. But only when Fist Steppen defended the fort they used them.

Secondly, the reaction by the Malazans when the Seguleh get blown to pieces. It seemed completely out of place. Crying and mourning for the guys who just murdered half your comrades? Because they got blown up "unfairly" by an air bomb raid? Why? The Malazan sappers do that stuff with enemy infantry all the time, just not from the air, but with minefields, throwing weapons, rigged infrastructure. The Malazans have fought for years next to the Moranth, they surely have seen such tactics before. High Mages kill thousands in seconds, without the victims even seeing them. And now this reaction for 400 faceless Seguleh? Doesn't fit at all, them reacting like they just saw the T'lan Imass razing Y'Ghatan or Leoman burning Y'Ghatan



Pretty sure we will see a reason for K'rul's gender bender sooner or later, as the change was mentioned as odd in the book.

I've finished Orb Sceptre Throne myself now, and yeah. I definitely agree with your first spoiler. Both the first and second points. It really didn't make any sense.

And your second spoiler, yeah. It was a mind gently caress, but you're right. It'll almost certainly be addressed later.

Overall, I was pretty impressed. I hated Night of Knives, thought Return of the Crimson Guard was almost Erikson level, wasn't blown away by Stonewielder (thought it was a step backwards), but went from 20% into this book to finished in one day. Once it reached that critical point where we start caring about the various stories, it was near impossible to put down. I can't really comment on the writing, as I'm no expert there, but the storytelling was amazing. There not only wasn't a single unimportant plotline, it even tied together seemingly unimportant ones from Esslemont's other books.

My only real problems were that it didn't address the new emporer, I expected more on him by now. We've spent 2 Esslemont books waiting for him to either meet his end or prove himself, but instead he's just been a side figure, uninvolved in the stories themselves[spoiler] or our old friend [spoiler]Karsa, who was apparantly in the Darujhistan area during all this, yet didn't actually take part, or even appear, in the story. I'm also struggling to remember what part Brood played in the finale. He was built up as a major player in the convergence, but having just put the book down I can't actually remember him doing anything in the finale. Brood was ready to walk in to Darujhistan and put an end to the tyrant, but in the end Kruppe set up the guards to wound him, then pretty much finished him off himself didn't he?

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NovemberMike
Dec 28, 2008


Abalieno posted:

In fact I was replying to someone who said this starts in HoC. As far as MT I see no trace of this.

How could you see it, you don't even know what you're looking for yet. It's something that only becomes a real problem in the later books but I do think that it starts somewhere around HoC or MT. It's not that he's inserting whole passages that should be removed, it's just that he'll have a 10 page section that could really be done in 9 pages. One of the big problems is the philosophizing that the soldiers tend to do later on, but there are other issues as well.

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

You would be wise not to take me lightly, Your Grace... and wiser still not to make of me a foe

Abalieno posted:

Then the discussion is less about writing style and more about structure. Malazan has a very deliberate structure. An editor, good or not, has no right to make arbitrary cuts to a text. What he CAN do is persuade a writer that certain scenes could be cut. He may succeed or not. Ultimately it's the writer's choice, so the writer is to blame, not the editor.

I disagree with that. The editor is there to make the stuff the author writes readable (or sellable nowadays...). This includes cutting stuff, which is completely normal and happens to every author. Of course it is the author who has the last word, but the editor is the one who has to convince them that this chapter is too long or that storyline doesn't work. And often authors do cut the stuff, as much as it pains them - until they get big and famous. Then, suddenly the publishers are too afraid to have the editor cut stuff mercilessly because it might mean that they lose the author to a publisher who is less demanding. Also, people are more likely to pay 25 USD for a 900 pages book from <Famous Fantasy Author> than 15 USD for a 400 one, so longer works are actually better for the publisher in many cases.
The end result are fantasy series, which start out great, well-paced and readable. And end up with gigantic tomes filled with drawn out and outright boring parts.
Erikson is one of the better in this regard, there are maybe 5-10 % of the later books I myself consider too long/much (and which others might like on expanse of stuff I like, although I wonder if anyone liked the length of for example Nimander's traveling depression therapy group or the Mhybe's lamentations).
There are far more severe cases like GRRM, Hamilton, Jordan, Rowling or Rothfuss, who would have benefited from condensing certain storylines in half or a third of the pages used.

Decius fucked around with this message at Feb 6, 2012 around 06:45

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


I'm probably an unique case thinking the Mhybe is the best written piece of MoI.

It also entirely falls in the case "I don't like it, so it should be cut", aka arbitrary personal preferences that are extended to a universal case.

The Mhybe storyline is right at the foundation of MoI and the series at large. It's not an optional diversion.

The case is another. With very large books packing multiple storylines it's unavoidable that a specific reader will like some more than others. As consequence this reader will then say that the part of the book he didn't like should be cut. Even if maybe another reader would react differently and demand the opposite: that what the first reader liked should be cut, and that the rest was great.

Do you ever consider that, maybe, you're wrong? Or that what you think doesn't make an universal rule? That what you find irrelevant is actually relevant?

Srice
Sep 11, 2011



Decius posted:

I disagree with that. The editor is there to make the stuff the author writes readable (or sellable nowadays...). This includes cutting stuff, which is completely normal and happens to every author. Of course it is the author who has the last word, but the editor is the one who has to convince them that this chapter is too long or that storyline doesn't work. And often authors do cut the stuff, as much as it pains them - until they get big and famous. Then, suddenly the publishers are too afraid to have the editor cut stuff mercilessly because it might mean that they lose the author to a publisher who is less demanding. Also, people are more likely to pay 25 USD for a 900 pages book from <Famous Fantasy Author> than 15 USD for a 400 one, so longer works are actually better for the publisher in many cases.
The end result are fantasy series, which start out great, well-paced and readable. And end up with gigantic tomes filled with drawn out and outright boring parts.
Erikson is one of the better in this regard, there are maybe 5-10 % of the later books I myself consider too long/much (and which others might like on expanse of stuff I like, although I wonder if anyone liked the length of for example Nimander's traveling depression therapy group or the Mhybe's lamentations).
There are far more severe cases like GRRM, Hamilton, Jordan, Rowling or Rothfuss, who would have benefited from condensing certain storylines in half or a third of the pages used.

Rothfuss in particular is a great example of this because when he was writing The Wise Man's Fear, his editor told him that the only restriction he had was that he could not make the page count so obscenely high that it would be impossible to physically keep the book bound.

I've often wondered if this is what happens with 99% of fantasy authors whose first book or two sell really well.

Srice fucked around with this message at Feb 7, 2012 around 03:04

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


Srice posted:

Rothfuss in particular is a great example of this because when he was writing The Wise Man's Fear, his editor told him that the only restriction he had was that he could not make the page count so obscenely high that it would be impossible to physically keep the book bound.

I've often wondered if this is what happens with 99% of fantasy authors whose first book or two sell really well.
I think it also happens with a large percentage of fantasy authors who don't sell well or are well known. I had a series of books by JV Jones and the level of page padding with unnecessary description and drawn out plot progression(not to mention the number of characters who were unnecessary to the main, or even secondary, plot) was insane. There was an interesting-sounding story buried under all this rubbish but I gave up after multiple times of skipping a hundred page chunk of book and finding that the plot had still barely moved.

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



I'm a little confused as to what I read last night. Kellanved somehow found the First Throne and became the king of the T'lan Imass. Then he and Dancer fake their deaths and install Surly onto the throne of the Malazan Empire. They live in the Azath House, and I think Onrack mentions it, but then maybe they had contact with the Nameless Ones. And if the Nameless ones got the T'lan Imass First Throne, then all the T'lan Imass would be wiped out. But at the same time, the Edur are trying to find the First Throne and seat their own mortal's scrawny arse on it. Kellanved, however, is still the "emperor" of the Imass as well as sitting on the fake throne of Shadow while the real throne of Shadow is being guarded by "Traveller." Crokus and Apsalar conjecture that putting Surly/Laseen on the Malazan throne was a play by Kellanved so that he could try and consolidate power within the warren of Shadaow, as well as even trying to gain other thrones in other warrens, thus becoming all powerful.

Onrack also mentions to the Imass that are pursuing him and Trull about the renegade Imass that were the Teblor gods, seeking the First Throne in the name of the Chained God. Things would certainly turn dire if the Chained God had the power to command the Imass. Not only did he say that, but when the Bonecaster asks Onrack where the rest of the body is that he used to repair himself, Onrack says that he didn't know, but the renegade had been cut in half by a single strike. Why is cutting a T'lan Imass in half with a single strike significant?

I'm still not quite sure what Karsa's role in all of this is, either. The renegade Imass/Teblor gods call him the Knight of Chains, but he says he isn't. He has a flint sword like the Imass now. And it was mentioned in an earlier chapter that his kind used to be the minders for Icarium.

This is all very confusing right now.


If that made any sense, am I correct in unravelling what was said?

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it

pakman posted:

Not only did he say that, but when the Bonecaster asks Onrack where the rest of the body is that he used to repair himself, Onrack says that he didn't know, but the renegade had been cut in half by a single strike. Why is cutting a T'lan Imass in half with a single strike significant?


If that made any sense, am I correct in unravelling what was said?

Ooh, ooh - I can actually explain this part. the Imass who was cut in half was that rogue one that Karsa sliced in half when he rejected the Crippled God. It's significant because as we've seen in the books so far, the T'Lan Imass are pretty much indestructible badasses who can go toe to toe with nasty poo poo like K'Chain Che'Malle. For someone to kill one with one strike, well, that person must be even MORE badass.

zokie
Feb 13, 2006

Out of many, Sweden


pakman posted:

I'm a little confused as to what I read last night. Kellanved somehow found the First Throne and became the king of the T'lan Imass. Then he and Dancer fake their deaths and install Surly onto the throne of the Malazan Empire. They live in the Azath House, and I think Onrack mentions it, but then maybe they had contact with the Nameless Ones. And if the Nameless ones got the T'lan Imass First Throne, then all the T'lan Imass would be wiped out. But at the same time, the Edur are trying to find the First Throne and seat their own mortal's scrawny arse on it. Kellanved, however, is still the "emperor" of the Imass as well as sitting on the fake throne of Shadow while the real throne of Shadow is being guarded by "Traveller." Crokus and Apsalar conjecture that putting Surly/Laseen on the Malazan throne was a play by Kellanved so that he could try and consolidate power within the warren of Shadaow, as well as even trying to gain other thrones in other warrens, thus becoming all powerful.

I think I can answer this: Shadowthrone has the real throne, but the one on Drift Avalii is a fake and Andarist was guarding it but when he died Traveller took up his quest out of respect for him. Later Trull and Onrack will encounter the real throne. The Edur are looking for the Throne of Shadow, not the Frist Throne. One theory of why Kellanved faked his death and let Surly/Laseen take over was to avoid all other ascendents going apeshit on him, trying to become a god and being emperor of the most powerfull empire yet. Basically getting rid of power to look less threatening.

coyo7e
Aug 23, 2007


I didn't ask for this Coyote myth.

pakman posted:


I'm still not quite sure what Karsa's role in all of this is, either. The renegade Imass/Teblor gods call him the Knight of Chains, but he says he isn't. He has a flint sword like the Imass now. And it was mentioned in an earlier chapter that his kind used to be the minders for Icarium.

This is all very confusing right now.


If that made any sense, am I correct in unravelling what was said?
I'm pretty sure that Karsa really is, that house in particular is a bit odd as the aspected cards do not necessarily have to be on any specific terms with TCG. Karsa's extreme experiences with being bound, as well as the souls he has chained to himself, makes him the perfect candidate for knight.

Comrade Flynn
Jun 1, 2003

Do you not hear that?! That's "Puttin' On The Ritz", man!

I gave this series a chance a couple of years ago and just couldn't get into it despite reading pretty much every other epic fantasy series out there. I just recently heard someone recommend starting at book 2 - will this work? Do you read 2 then go back to 1 then to 3?

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


pakman posted:

I'm a little confused as to what I read last night. Kellanved somehow found the First Throne and became the king of the T'lan Imass. Then he and Dancer fake their deaths and install Surly onto the throne of the Malazan Empire.

Huh? Kellanved and Cotillion surely HATE Surly, they didn't "install" her on the throne. Nor they faked their death (in fact the slaughter in Itko Kan was a way for them to show they are still around, forcing Laseen to cover it up), it was Surly who told everyone the emperor was dead because otherwise her rule wouldn't be accepted and would have lead to a rebellion.

What actually happened is that Kellanven & Cotillion stumbled on certain knowledge, and from there learned more and more. The more they understood, the more they had to reconsider their goals, including the Malazan empire. This journey they made kept them away from the empire they lead. Laseen TOOK the throne on her own. It was a deliberate, full scale betrayal, motivated, if you want, by the fact that Kellanved was away from more than 10 years for his own reasons. Neglecting his duties as Emperor. Laseen took advantage of the absence to take the throne for herself.



quote:

But at the same time, the Edur are trying to find the First Throne and seat their own mortal's scrawny arse on it.

The Edur are after their own throne. The First Throne is Imass. The Edur throne is Shadow BUT not the Shadow throne that Kellanved currently occupies. The Edur are after the "true" throne, that is in the wandering island of LOST with the protectors of the throne, Jacob and the smoke monster. Drift Avaali, which is one of the fragments of the shattered, Edur, warren.

Sir Bruce
Jul 8, 2004



Abalieno posted:

Huh? Kellanved and Cotillion surely HATE Surly, they didn't "install" her on the throne. Nor they faked their death (in fact the slaughter in Itko Kan was a way for them to show they are still around, forcing Laseen to cover it up), it was Surly who told everyone the emperor was dead because otherwise her rule wouldn't be accepted and would have lead to a rebellion.

What actually happened is that Kellanven & Cotillion stumbled on certain knowledge, and from there learned more and more. The more they understood, the more they had to reconsider their goals, including the Malazan empire. This journey they made kept them away from the empire they lead. Laseen TOOK the throne on her own. It was a deliberate, full scale betrayal, motivated, if you want, by the fact that Kellanved was away from more than 10 years for his own reasons. Neglecting his duties as Emperor. Laseen took advantage of the absence to take the throne for herself.


It is explicitly said that most Ascendants would get crazy mad and unify against Shadowthrone if he kept his mortal throne and ascended, which makes the whole Surly uprising appear to be tacitly supported by Kellanved himself as a way to fake to their deaths. There is a great passage in DoD between Mael and some other ascendants that discuss the fine art of extremely subtle manipulation that Kellanved and Anomandar Rake excel at. I think it's fair to say that Surly's betrayal was real but part of Kellanved's plans. But to keep it real he needs to be pissed about it. The line blurs between manipulation and want.

For relevant quotes, see here under 'Kellanved and Dancer's Grand Scheme'. Spoilers abound at that link.

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


Sir Bruce posted:

But to keep it real he needs to be pissed about it. The line blurs between manipulation and want.

This rises too many contradictions, including scenes with just Shadowthrone and Dancer who are obviously not "pretending" since there's no one around to deceive.

What actually happened is that their plans changed during the course of GotM and DG, so all events that come after Laseen on the Malazan throne.

First they oppose it, then they figure out that it can become useful.

So the interpretation is "mostly" correct, but happens for different reasons and at different moments.

Ah, I was also forgetting that Erikson explained the deal here:
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/12/st...uestions-part-2

Question 5, and it was already linked on this thread.

As he explains, it's the events in GotM that make plans change, and the events of GotM are obviously all post-Laseen rule.

Abalieno fucked around with this message at Feb 7, 2012 around 22:55

Sir Bruce
Jul 8, 2004



Yes, his explicitly saying that they intended it does raise contradictions with what he previously said. However, I think it's probably simpler and closer to the truth to acknowledge that there are aspects of GOTM's story and characters that are retconned in future novels. That is an inevitable nature of the beast with epic serial fantasy, and I think Erickson actually does a really good job with books 2-9 (as far as I am) in keeping this to a minimum. The most noticeable cases are between GOTM and the other books.

That's exactly what Erickson means when he acknowledges that "as much as the storyline was pretty much in place, we both had to be prepared to alter it whenever something cooler came along."

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


Sir Bruce posted:

That's exactly what Erickson means when he acknowledges that "as much as the storyline was pretty much in place, we both had to be prepared to alter it whenever something cooler came along."

No it's not and it's quite obvious by the context.

He's saying that he and Cam developed the series in-character, and so the plans changed and became larger. The same to what happened with ST & Dancer, the more they learned the more they had to readjust and make new plans. This isn't about retconning, it's about planning out and adapting to unexpected developments. Most writers do it, have a plan for a story that changes as the story finds its own direction.

A retcon isn't even plausible since Dancer speaks about changing plans already at the end of GotM, and it's obviously not possible to retcon the first book in the series since there's nothing before it to retcon it to.

You can develop your own fanfiction and interpret what you read the way you want, but accordingly to the written books and even the words of the writer himself, what you say is wrong. And besides being wrong it also makes no sense since it goes against what's written in multiple books, including GotM, DG, MoI and Night of Knives.

Night of Knives, especially, was published around the time of Midnight Tides, so you can be sure Cam would have rewritten it if the plot was completely redone.

Lyer
Feb 4, 2008



Abalieno posted:

He's saying that he and Cam developed the series in-character, and so the plans changed and became larger. The same to what happened with ST & Dancer, the more they learned the more they had to readjust and make new plans. This isn't about retconning, it's about planning out and adapting to unexpected developments. Most writers do it, have a plan for a story that changes as the story finds its own direction.

A retcon isn't even plausible since Dancer speaks about changing plans already at the end of GotM, and it's obviously not possible to retcon the first book in the series since there's nothing before it to retcon it to.

Abalieno's right.

Spoilers for end of series: At first they go after the throne for shadow for their personal pursuit of power, along the way they discover TCG and what's been happening. They then decide to set things in motion to free TCG.

I've been under the impression that their motivations for doing so was simply because it was the right thing to do. Not because they wanted to change the way the warrens worked and/or to stop the various gods from loving with poo poo right? Those things just happened to be a side effect from freeing TCG?

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


The point is about the misuse of the "retcon" term.

Retcon means that an event in the past is changed. But specifically in this case nothing in the past events was changed. What Erikson wrote in 1999 is still the same as he says in the 2011 interview. So there's no ground for a retcon.

What this actually is is about events in the future that change. The plan changes, was adjusted, but what changes is the way it develops, moving on. It takes an unpredictable bent, but what happened in the past still happened that way.

There ARE some smaller retcons in the series, for example some elements of the siege of Pale (though even here they work better than how they may appear), but they are limited to certain descriptions and order of things.

Sir Bruce
Jul 8, 2004



Altering the storyline as cooler things come along inevitably means previous meanings or narrative arcs don't necessarily flow in the apparently intended direction or have the same meaning as they did at the time. That is basically by definition. I don't really want to have a debate about the technicalities of what 'retcon' does and doesn't mean but at the very least there was an ex post change in intentionality and meaning of several actions in GOTM due to how Erickson and ICE wanted later narratives to play out. This is a feature of all serial narratives, especially epic fantasy where the rules are much looser and less apparent to readers, so I'm not holding it against Erickson or trying to knock the books for it. It's still there though.

Actually, the only big change that bugs me is the change in Tayschrenn's description and the ex post justification/redemption of his actions at Pale. It is really hard to believe that someone who had just read GOTM would think Tayschrenn was anything other than an 'evil' figure. His portrayal in later books is much more ambiguous and he is given noble and well intentions, even for his part in the massacre.

Abalieno
Apr 3, 2011


You continue to evoke things that aren't in the books and vaguely referring to hypothetical changes. Technicalities or not, you're wrong.

And you're wrong even in this other example

Sir Bruce posted:

Actually, the only big change that bugs me is the change in Tayschrenn's description and the ex post justification/redemption of his actions at Pale. It is really hard to believe that someone who had just read GOTM would think Tayschrenn was anything other than an 'evil' figure. His portrayal in later books is much more ambiguous and he is given noble and well intentions, even for his part in the massacre.

Tayschrenn already changes when Lorn arrives in Pale and takes charge. Specifically ordering Tayschrenn that "Dujek is not the enemy". From that point onward you don't see Tayschrenn doing much. Some parts were definitely adjusted, but it's all quite coherent in the way it comes out. Tayschrenn had motives to act like that. The changes are on the small things, including characterization.

Sir Bruce
Jul 8, 2004



I don't agree, mostly because Tayschrenn is portrayed in a sympathetic/warm light in Night of Knives, which of course predates GOTM where he is just a ruthless power-loving rear end in a top hat for the most part. His entire character's portrayal just drastically changes after GOTM. It's clearly a deliberate choice by the authors. This then goes a further step in BH, were we learn that Tayschrenn was really doing GOOD things during the massacre. Something wasn't working with what they wanted, and so they changed it! Good for them! They even came up with reasonable sounding explanations, so things stay coherent. Even better! However, that doesn't mean that they didn't change the meanings of past actions from what they clearly had intended at the time.

Honestly, I like that authors give up ideas that aren't working instead of pressing forward with bad ones. The later books are much more interesting having Tayschrenn as an enigmatic recluse who cares about the stability of the world and Shadowthrone and Dancer as intriguing manipulative protaganists instead of their relatively (haha) one-dimensional portrayal in GOTM.

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

You would be wise not to take me lightly, Your Grace... and wiser still not to make of me a foe

Comrade Flynn posted:

I gave this series a chance a couple of years ago and just couldn't get into it despite reading pretty much every other epic fantasy series out there. I just recently heard someone recommend starting at book 2 - will this work? Do you read 2 then go back to 1 then to 3?

The Malazan series has several parallel plotlines. Book 2 starts a new plotline, mostly independant of the one in Book 1. While you meet some characters and story elements introduced in Book 1 and of course spoil large parts of Book 1 (since it happens shortly after Book 1, and Book 1 has some severe consequences on the beginning of Book 2) it works as a starting point. It is better written - there are 8 years or so between the writing of Book 1 and Book 2 - and a more straightforward story as it is more grounded (the main storyline is between the Malazan Empire and an uprising on one of the occupied continents instead of millenia old godlike beings spinning their schemes). It is also a great introduction to the tone and themes of the series. It is still difficult to get into the world, as it is filled with concepts and words you don't know anything about, but compared to Book 1 it is easier.

Book 3 continues the plotline/characters of Book 1, so you should read Book 1 before Book 3 eventually.

Decius fucked around with this message at Feb 8, 2012 around 06:06

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


For what it's worth it took me about 6 months to find the motivation to get through the first part or two of Gardens of the Moon, and about a week to finish the rest. The first book is the hardest and if you can get through it then it's smooth sailing the rest of the way.

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



I'm sorry Didn't mean to start an argument, just trying to get a little clarity on what exactly happened.

Right now I'm at the part where the Whirlwind Goddess (another Imass spirit) has just withdrawn from Tavore when Tavore was going to stick her sword in the wall

That's also the chapter where FiddlStrings finds out Kalam is inside the Whirlwind. And there was a little passage with Kalam and the spiritwalker song that I didn't pick up on. I'll go back and reread it after work.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


I also just finished Orb, Sceptre and Throne. I really enjoyed it and thought it is I.C.E's best novel so far. He has improved significantly in his pacing and plotting and while Erikson is still a much better writer overall, it was refreshing reading a new Malazan novel without the overkill of philosophical rambling that has plagued Erikson's most recent entries in the series.

I agree with what Decius said about the Segulah being overpowered compared to their previous depictions and how the Malazan army reacted to them getting bombarded with munitions just doesn't fit with them gleefully using them to cause as much death and destruction as possible in previous novels.

One weird thing I noticed was how he described Stonny and Blend as being heavy. I don't think either of them were described that way before and I always pictured them both as skinny.

Masonity posted:

or our old friend [spoiler]Karsa, who was apparantly in the Darujhistan area during all this, yet didn't actually take part, or even appear, in the story. I'm also struggling to remember what part Brood played in the finale. He was built up as a major player in the convergence, but having just put the book down I can't actually remember him doing anything in the finale. Brood was ready to walk in to Darujhistan and put an end to the tyrant, but in the end Kruppe set up the guards to wound him, then pretty much finished him off himself didn't he?
Brood punched and broke the magical foundation stones that Spindle and Duiker were trying to destroy at the end.

Yeah, I was disappointed that we still haven't gotten a Karsa/Torvald reunion when they were both in the same book/area again.

Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?


savinhill posted:

One weird thing I noticed was how he described Stonny and Blend as being heavy. I don't think either of them were described that way before and I always pictured them both as skinny.

Something worth remembering is that they've been retired for a few years now. Running a bar, sitting around eating, drinking and chatting about old times. While they keep sharp I'm sure, they are no longer active military.

How many sport stars end up fat when they retire? Gaining a few pound is pretty much expected with their recent way of life.

Opal
May 10, 2005


I'm pretty sure he actually says so outright in those chapters as well, it wasn't just an oblique reference.

zokie
Feb 13, 2006

Out of many, Sweden


Also Steven Eriksson likes fat chicks!

Illuyankas
Oct 22, 2010

oh god what


zokie posted:

Also Steven Eriksson likes fat chicks!
Pretty ironic if you've ever seen his wife.

farcry
Jan 18, 2006


Reading Deadhouse Gates and just got to the part where they meet the bonehunters on the boat in the warren and while I am normally ok with high fantasy stuff this really put me off somehow. The whole mud thing was just wierd and then the rest might also be me not being able to keep up so much with the whole plot thing going on in the scene, got the same feeling also from when you find out the old emporer and dancer are cotilion and shadowthrone it just didnt seem right and like it was kind of forced in. Should I continue reading or is the series going to continue like this? And is it just me being dumb and not thinking hard enough or keeping up with plot thing?

mcustic
Feb 24, 2007

Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

farcry posted:

Reading Deadhouse Gates and just got to the part where they meet the bonehunters on the boat in the warren and while I am normally ok with high fantasy stuff this really put me off somehow. The whole mud thing was just wierd and then the rest might also be me not being able to keep up so much with the whole plot thing going on in the scene, got the same feeling also from when you find out the old emporer and dancer are cotilion and shadowthrone it just didnt seem right and like it was kind of forced in. Should I continue reading or is the series going to continue like this? And is it just me being dumb and not thinking hard enough or keeping up with plot thing?

I'm halfway through book three and Erikson just keeps dumping reveals within reveals upon you. More stuff gets revealed in the first half of MoI than in the first nine books of Wheel of Time. So take that as a warning.

E: completely misread your post, you are reading DG. The first half of my post still stands.

mcustic fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2012 around 20:34

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


I just finished Return of the Crimson Guard. Glad I stuck with it because after the first 200 pages or so the plotlines began coalescing into an interesting story. The writing was substantially better than Night of Knives and it actually felt like a Malazan book.

Finding out Traveller was Dassem Ultor was a huge plot twist and pretty awesome too, but is he also Dessembrae too? The conversation he has with Hood at the end of the book where Hood says it's just like old times makes me think so. Also, loving Mallick!! Can't believe that guy is going to become Emperor.

Back to Erikson for Toll the Hounds, getting close to the end now!

PlushCow
Oct 19, 2005

The cow eats the grass


The Ninth Layer posted:

I just finished Return of the Crimson Guard. Glad I stuck with it because after the first 200 pages or so the plotlines began coalescing into an interesting story. The writing was substantially better than Night of Knives and it actually felt like a Malazan book.

Finding out Traveller was Dassem Ultor was a huge plot twist and pretty awesome too, but is he also Dessembrae too? The conversation he has with Hood at the end of the book where Hood says it's just like old times makes me think so. Also, loving Mallick!! Can't believe that guy is going to become Emperor.

Back to Erikson for Toll the Hounds, getting close to the end now!

Concerning Traveller, He's both, but they're separate entities. Traveller is like his mortal side like how he was, and Dessembrae is the side of him that was worshipped and turned into a god. I think you might read more about this(how he/part of became a god) later in the main series, the last book or the one before it. It's been awhile though.

Krabkolash
Dec 7, 2006

With this hand I rolled 8d20



AND GOT 160.


Hondo82 posted:

I think you might read more about this(how he/part of became a god) later in the main series, the last book or the one before it. It's been awhile though.

You do, and it is oddly depressing.

Conduit for Sale!
Apr 17, 2007



farcry posted:

Reading Deadhouse Gates and just got to the part where they meet the bonehunters on the boat in the warren and while I am normally ok with high fantasy stuff this really put me off somehow. The whole mud thing was just wierd and then the rest might also be me not being able to keep up so much with the whole plot thing going on in the scene, got the same feeling also from when you find out the old emporer and dancer are cotilion and shadowthrone it just didnt seem right and like it was kind of forced in. Should I continue reading or is the series going to continue like this? And is it just me being dumb and not thinking hard enough or keeping up with plot thing?

Keep in mind that you're kind of starting the story midway with GotM. There are a lot of important plot points that you're only going to find out after the fact and probably secondhand - like the Kellanved and Dancer thing. There's a lot that happened in Kellanved's time and with Laseen's ascent to power that is important to the story but we only find out after the fact. I've read through book 3 and I still barely know anything about Laseen and the empire - which makes sense because up until now the story has had very little to do with the empire proper, only with its agents.

I do agree that the whole part with Felisin and Heboric and Kulp inside the warren was weird and didn't really fit. I'm sure it's foreshadowing of some sort but it seems like the only reason for including it was as a future callback. That kind of annoys me. I mean, I'm totally fine with putting in stuff that will only really make complete sense in future books, but only if it also has some sort of importance to the current story. eg Heboric's chopped off hands, Heboric finding and touching that big green dude, Otataral all have importance to the current story and have significance that will only be revealed in later books.

farcry
Jan 18, 2006


Conduit for Sale! posted:

I do agree that the whole part with Felisin and Heboric and Kulp inside the warren was weird and didn't really fit. I'm sure it's foreshadowing of some sort but it seems like the only reason for including it was as a future callback. That kind of annoys me. I mean, I'm totally fine with putting in stuff that will only really make complete sense in future books, but only if it also has some sort of importance to the current story. eg Heboric's chopped off hands, Heboric finding and touching that big green dude, Otataral all have importance to the current story and have significance that will only be revealed in later books.

Thanks guys I kept reading and the next scene after that dragged me back in long after I should have gone to sleep. It was so much better done that way then just oh heres a battle lets describe things in the most boring way possible where he goes on about so and so strikes so and so on and on. But he did something so totally different with it and made it wonderfull. Hell even where he does describe fighting in the series so far it is usually very well done.

in response to ^^^^^^ the scene had alot of big lore/ plot points in it
that sword given to storm.
Did the bonecaster that flew into the crack actually fly into it or did he just put in the head of the rower?
that a warren can be seriously damaged by wizadry gone wrong
That this specific warren being harmed also did damage to other warrens? or maybe im mixing this up with the shapeshifters being in all the warrens.
while this would just be a throwaway cool scene for any other auther I read it 3 times to try and make sure I understood what was going on because it seems like it will have significance in the future.
Have we found out why the warren was flooded out?

pakman
Jun 26, 2011



I just finished House of Chains.

It was good, although the ending wasn't nearly as epic this time around. I feel that this book was more of a set up book with the things that were revealed and the issues that were raised.

I really did like the assassinations in the camp at the end that was a good sequence with Kalam and Quick Ben. Karsa is also a badass, but his character still seems pretty single-minded, although that has changed a lot since the beginning of the book. I also deduced that the Whirlwind Goddess was the wife of Onrack (i think), when she was talking about how her husband hadn't been loyal, it was an odd sequence, and then Felesin unceremoniously died. Who exactly killed the Whirlwind Goddess? L'oric was there and Osric came to save him, again, another very odd series of events.

I am looking forward to hearing the tale of Trull. And Onrack seems to be the most human T'lan Imass that's been in the series thus far.

Overall it was a good book and I enjoyed it, but the ending was very odd, and there didn't seem to be any release of the tension that was building up to the final fight that never happened.

Citizen Tayne
Apr 7, 2003



Pittsburgh Stymie

I'm sorry if this was covered elsewhere in the thread, but I couldn't find anything on this:

I'm buying the Kindle editions from Amazon.com - this is great because I only read Gardens two years ago and stalled, but the Kindle makes it easy to pick up the next book.

There are two editions listed for most of them: The Tor Edition, and the Transworld (Bantam) editions. They vary a lot in size and page count.

Tor edition of MoI: http://www.amazon.com/Memories-Ice-...28992608&sr=8-1 Listed at 945 pages.

Transworld edition: http://www.amazon.com/Memories-Mala...28992608&sr=8-1 Listed at 1204 pages.

Why the massive difference in page count, or is that mistaken? Are there other practical differences?

The paperback I bought for Gardens uses the Bantam/Transworld cover instead of the old goofy Tor cover, even though it's published by Tor, so I dunno.

Edmond Dantes
Sep 12, 2007

Can you tell me how Gunnerkrigg Court was built?


Tedious_Bastard posted:

I'm sorry if this was covered elsewhere in the thread, but I couldn't find anything on this:

I'm buying the Kindle editions from Amazon.com - this is great because I only read Gardens two years ago and stalled, but the Kindle makes it easy to pick up the next book.

There are two editions listed for most of them: The Tor Edition, and the Transworld (Bantam) editions. They vary a lot in size and page count.

Tor edition of MoI: http://www.amazon.com/Memories-Ice-...28992608&sr=8-1 Listed at 945 pages.

Transworld edition: http://www.amazon.com/Memories-Mala...28992608&sr=8-1 Listed at 1204 pages.

Why the massive difference in page count, or is that mistaken? Are there other practical differences?

The paperback I bought for Gardens uses the Bantam/Transworld cover instead of the old goofy Tor cover, even though it's published by Tor, so I dunno.

If you click on the "Kindle Edition" link in the first of those two, you're taken to the second one, so I think it's basically the same?

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007

Timothy
"DESERT STORM"
Bradley


140 Pound Champ


Weren't people complaining about various problems in the early Malazan ebooks, such as "Toe the Younger"?

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