|
Do you mind if I steal the OP for another forum? With credit given of course.
|
#
¿
Mar 6, 2011 03:47
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 03:07 |
|
|
Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Gesler was like a Lieutenant or something and Stormy was an Adjunct(sp?) or whatever they call the right hand man of the captain in a fleet. IIRC Gesler was actually a high fist for one day but was demoted for trying to get everyone to swear to Fener.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 22, 2011 06:00
|
|
|
L.E. Cheetah posted:"Cutter" is a dumb rear end name and Erikson needs to stop trying to convince me otherwise Cutter is supposed to be a dumb name. The character takes the name in an attempt to be scarier and more assassin sounding but it's a nickname for healers. That was entirely intentional.
|
|
#
¿
May 12, 2011 14:56
|
|
|
L.E. Cheetah posted:That was definitely my reaction to it. If it was intentional then why does every other character's internal dialogue take his new name so seriously? There's no way. Crokus turned into this hard-bitten assassin type and Erikson wanted him to have an awesome hard-bitten new name. It's almost certainly intentional. IIRC one of the first times he tells someone his name is Cutter they ask if he's a docter and it's a reference to Croaker the doctor from the Black Company series.
|
|
#
¿
May 12, 2011 21:24
|
|
|
AcidCat posted:There is still kind of a hole that these books left in me. I really doubt I will ever read something so epic again in my lifetime. That's one thing about these books, they really feel like a kind of mythology. Most modern fantasy is about either transporting a modern perspective into a fantasy realm or reveling in the debauchery and violence of an imagined time frame. MBOTF is all about setting up these enormous conflicts and watching trickster gods, powerful warriors and wizards and humble mortals all try to solve it. It's just very different.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2011 00:58
|
|
|
Levitate posted:I know that Eriksson dropped major hints about it way earlier in the series but the Nah'Ruk still felt like they kinda came out of nowhere...maybe more goes into that in the last book but in some ways it felt like he threw them in because he needed a suitably awesome fight to end the book on. IIRC that's been built up at least since the third book.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2011 20:13
|
|
|
LtSmash posted:Of course there are plenty of other groups that are even worse. But Erikson makes us sympathize with them too. The Tiste Edur commit tons of atrocities but you have to be pretty heartless to hate them by the end of it. Hell Kallor burned an entire continent down to spite the gods who would take his kingdom away but who didn't feel differently when you read his parts in the later books? There's a fairly standard thing in fantasy where you just have everybody be a bunch of dicks in an attempt to be dark and edgy. Kind of like you have knights in shining armor but underneath they're all monsters. Erikson did a good job of inverting this, where instead you'd have to people covered in mud and stabbing the poo poo out of each other but under all the dirt they're human and they have families and reasons for being there.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 29, 2011 22:39
|
|
|
Habibi posted:Or sometimes they have no reasons and they've just been swept up and away by circumstance, which is an equally rare perspective in fantasy novels. Yeah, that's part of what I'm talking about. The two common perspectives in fantasy have good guys who made a decision to be good and bad guys who made a decision to be bad (it's just that in one of the perspectives both sides are bad guys). The Malazan series tends more towards people doing what they think they have to do.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2011 17:13
|
|
|
Habibi posted:Beak. Beak's a good example because he's an inversion of the standard mental retard in fantasy. IIRC the standard is to have the "slow" guy get a little bit of power and then turn into a tyrant or else they have a minor victory that wouldn't be special for a non-retarded character. Beak could have been replaced by Quick Ben or Tayschrenn without changing the basics of what happened, just how people reacted to him.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2011 20:40
|
|
|
I thought Kellanved and Cotillion were Erikson and Esslemont's characters in the Malazan GURPS game and they're used as a kind of author insert. They'd be pretty boring to write about in detail.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 2, 2011 06:33
|
|
|
It's ok to hate Felisin. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what you're supposed to do.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 13, 2011 04:02
|
|
|
misguided rage posted:I'm about three quarters of the way through right now (thanks to this forum!) and this is pretty much how I feel. I only vaguely understood what was going on, and there was just a ton of stuff that he mentions and implies is really important, but that you don't really know anything about. Although as the story continues and more context is given it's really satisfying to start seeing how things fit together, and stuff that popped up in previous chapters starts to make a little more sense. All in all I've really enjoyed how he wrote it, but I can definitely see why it's described as a slog. I don't know if you're 3/4 through GotM or the entire series, but if it's GotM then reread it once you're done with 3 or 4 books. There are so many little details that are really cool that you don't see at first.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 17, 2011 05:34
|
|
|
The Ninth Layer posted:I also finished HoC right about now. Started on Midnight Tides but having a little more trouble getting into it. This may be about the time in the series where I need to take a break and read something else first. Midnight Tides starts slowly because you don't know the characters and some of the politics are kind of boring, but Tehol and Bugg are two of the best characters in the series and the book is one of the stronger in the series.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 28, 2011 07:01
|
|
|
pakman posted:It is a little confusing that there are so many Gods in this one. Last night I read the chapter where I think I am introduced to the plot for the entire series. Brood has a decision to make, Paran travels to the Finnist, and learns that he can travel to any of the cards in the Deck along with the Houses, Kruppe has joined the armies, etc. It was a kickass chapter and I'm looking forward to the rest of the book. One thing to remember about the gods is that there is only a small difference between a god and a sufficiently badass mortal. I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the high mages could take on Ascendents in a fair fight and other mortals could win through trickery or guile. One of the big themes is that Gods are only protected by the fact that they can act from afar, and if they appear in a physical sense they are as vulnerable as any other manifestation of primordial power.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 13, 2011 00:46
|
|
|
Leospeare posted:Or Moranth munitions. Yeah, I'm a fan of how he didn't try to really "tier" things. Sure there are a few things like the Jaghut Tyrants that are on a different level but an Ascendant, a Dragon or a High Mage can all go down to a sapper.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 13, 2011 10:39
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:I was under the impression that gods are just ascendants who've claimed a throne and thus gives them power/dominion over the warren that it represents. There are also different "tiers" or "races" of gods, such as the basic ones such as Hood and Shadowthrone (who're really simply Ascendants who took a throne, or who found a role and filled it,) the primordial gods such as Mother/Father Dark and Burn etc, then there's alien gods (The Chained God, who doesn't give much indication of ever having a mortal background, although that may be simply because you never see his origins,) and the REALLY alien gods (the jade statues.) I thought gods were just ascendants that had worshippers. Rake isn't a god because he doesn't have real worshipers and the thing that defined Dassembrae was that his enemies worshiped him. Being a god also ties you to your worshipers in a way that a normal ascendent isn't.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 19, 2011 09:29
|
|
|
Lyer posted:It's a common theme in all his books. Yeah, one of the major concepts he has going on throughout the series is that the real problems are political or personal and that being an unstoppable engine of destruction doesn't necessarily help you make correct decisions.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 9, 2012 04:57
|
|
|
5ive posted:I'm a little over halfway through Midnight Tides and is it just me or is everything Erikson says about Lether a thinly veiled critique of American/western culture? Also, I can't wait to figure out Bugg's back story. Erikson needs to stop teasing me! IIRC no. It's more a critique of a pure Randian capitalism, and it's not even incredibly focused on that. Also, Bugg's back story is pretty awesome and answers some niggling things that don't make sense about Tehol.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 9, 2012 05:25
|
|
|
pakman posted:I just finished MoI. What a great book. Toc the Younger is not a character defined by the happy events in his life. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 20, 2012 |
|
#
¿
Jan 20, 2012 21:37
|
|
|
Yeah, it's supposed to be a criticism of strong hierarchies in general. IIRC he said that he based it partially off of some BC era Mediterranean crisis.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 23, 2012 00:17
|
|
|
mcustic posted:I finished the first book a couple of weeks ago. I really like the writing, it's a little bit dense and requires more effort than usual for the genre. He does have some horrible sexual stuff but it's generally treated as this terrible thing. He also tends pace it out pretty well, it's nowhere near GURM levels of pedos and incest everywhere. The series also avoids most of the really bad tropes around sexual violence. I haven't heard too many real complaints about this stuff in his books.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 27, 2012 20:29
|
|
|
The Malazan series isn't perfect and I do agree with some of the comments on its usage of rape, but the point isn't that it's perfect, just that it doesn't have the same bad tendencies as other works, or at least to the same degree. The big problem with the way he dealt with Janath and the Patriotists is that it's different from the rest of the series. He normally deals with good and evil fairly delicately and he just didn't in this case. I'm hoping it leads to something later on.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 28, 2012 20:20
|
|
|
BananaNutkins posted:If the names aren't off-putting because they came straight off an apostrophe happy random name generator, they are off-putting because they are too simple, either because they were named after the first thing Erikson saw on his desk, or because they encapsulate some essence of the character: A lot of this was based on how the old Jewish (and other groups) had names based on random meanings. You'd have names that were effectively "deer" or "she is mine". The whole concept of choosing from a pre-determined list of names isn't necessarily something that's always been around.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 31, 2012 22:14
|
|
|
Popular Human posted:So I just finished House of Chains. I'm a little bit conflicted. On the one hand, Karsa and everything to do with his plotline was seven shades of awesome, on the other hand everything else felt like a LOT of build up with very little payoff. The final standoff is decided by a bunch of Talon assassins who show up out of nowhere, and Tavore's army never even needs to directly attack the Whirlwind (with the notable exception of Tavore herself). I also thought the entire Cutter/Apsalar plotline could've been excised from the book without it being any the worse for it. The one major problem with these books from house of chains on is that they're about 10% stuff that should have been cut. They're good enough that you can work through the stuff that should have been cut and there is a good payoff, but he still needs an editor willing to be a bit more aggressive.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2012 18:28
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:
I think this was intentional. He's trying to be tough and names himself "Cutter", but it's a joke on him because cutter is the nickname for a surgeon. People trying to act tough in this series generally backfires. One of Karsa Orlong's most badass moments is when somebody keeps on insulting him and he just doesn't care because he just knows he's too badass for the insults to be right. Similarly, Bugg and Tehol act like fools but they come off as some of the most amazing characters in the series.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2012 20:15
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:I really wonder what one would cut from HoC. Erikson has the opposite problem, too gnarled prose, not enough slice of life scenes that make one acclimate. It's not a problem with the specific book, it's just a general issue he has. There are quite a few sections that kind of drag on and could benefit from a little effort to make things more concise.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 3, 2012 00:55
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:In fact I was replying to someone who said this starts in HoC. As far as MT I see no trace of this. How could you see it, you don't even know what you're looking for yet. It's something that only becomes a real problem in the later books but I do think that it starts somewhere around HoC or MT. It's not that he's inserting whole passages that should be removed, it's just that he'll have a 10 page section that could really be done in 9 pages. One of the big problems is the philosophizing that the soldiers tend to do later on, but there are other issues as well.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 5, 2012 23:49
|
|
|
BananaNutkins posted:Well, good to hear he goes back to that. I'm just going to pretend Raraku was Viet Nam and continue onwards. Raraku is basically a holy land. This is a series where doing badass things brings you closer to being a god, and the trek was essentially a pilgrimage. It's at least semi-mystical imo.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 15, 2012 23:14
|
|
|
BananaNutkins posted:The third book was so bad that I will probably never read another book in the series. I couldnt care about any of the characters, the magic system got out of hand, too many side plots were presented, and resurrections get handed out like candy, long winded meeting scenes where nothing happens are followed up by long winded meeting scenes where nothing happens, every viewpoint character spends the first half of the chapter giving an introspective monologue, etc. There really are a lot of things I can't stand about this book, but take my opinion as subjective, of course. Lots of people have said Memories of Ice is their favorite book. There's a few major things here. As far as the magic system goes, it's more complete than you might think. People have actually managed to figure out plot points ahead of time based on the logic of the magic system he has. He does some weird things with it but it all flows together very consistently. Resurrection is featured pretty often, but it's usually not taken lightly. Characters who come back resurrected don't just fall back into their old positions, they tend to be broken or changed in some way. The pacing issues are real and they get worse, but it's generally not enough to really detract from the book.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 12, 2012 16:19
|
|
|
bigmcgaffney posted:Karsa would be much more applicable since the arc was actually present and not boring as poo poo (Nimander) or random and forced (Cutter, the second Darkest Star). Karsa rules. There are quite a few other characters with good arcs. The fanatic that is betrayed at the burning city and joins the Bonehunters, pretty much all of the Sengar brothers, Tool and many others. The main difference between Martin and Erickson is that Martin breaks his characters and watches them try to rebuild themselves while Erickson sets events in motion and sees how people react. The other major difference is that Erickson tends to see his characters as having already developed. Rake, Stormy and Geslar, Dassem etc all had a definite personalities and life histories. They had a character arc, but it's almost over.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 13, 2012 08:04
|
|
|
There are generally enough clues to figure out how the chronology works. Karsa's stuff in that book is essentially a prologue, after that it meets up with the timeline you're expecting.
|
|
#
¿
May 11, 2012 01:46
|
|
|
Yeah I read books. posted:Oh my loving god, how did it take me so long to realize Who Karsa is? I just got to the reveal that the guy he's with is Leoman, and they're going to meet Sha'ik, and my mind just blew out the back of my skull See, I told you the chronology was easy to figure out once you've got enough of the pieces. One of the amazing things about this series is how complicated he makes everything, but how it's all self consistent. People here were making really good predictions based on how the rules of the magic system work. Everything tends to come together intuitively.
|
|
#
¿
May 11, 2012 16:39
|
|
|
savinhill posted:While Erikson does come off as conceited and rambles too much about the literary concepts of his series in interviews, I don't think it's fair to say that it has no true literary value or isn't art just because it's fantasy. The issue is that series are rarely of literary importance because the characters philosophize.
|
|
#
¿
May 12, 2012 01:09
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:Hmm, I'm no so sure this is the case. How would an ascendant acquire ascendant powers if not through the system? I do understand a god who's not automatically into the deck, because the power comes from the beliefs of his followers, but ascendants with no followers where do they get their powers? You become an ascendent by being a gigantic badass. The Deck is completely unrelated, it's more of a loose alliance or agreement than a source of power.
|
|
#
¿
May 14, 2012 13:00
|
|
|
the least weasel posted:I wouldn't say it's any sort of 'alliance' or 'agreement' at all - to me that implies a cooperation between ascendants - but rather its own separate 'force' reflecting parts of the real world (usually in the form of annoying riddles). IIRC you have to opt in and it restricts you in certain ways.
|
|
#
¿
May 14, 2012 13:22
|
|
|
Pegnose Pete posted:So I'm about a third of the way through House of Chains, and some of Kellanved + Dancer, Laseen and Tavore's history is starting to get revealed a little more...and it occurred to me: I always assumed the Malazan empire was a long established power (Not long by Erikson terms, but I guess I was thinking a hundred years or two...) but was it Kellanved that began the Malazan empire? As in, expanded beyond Malaz island and dominated Quon Tali? I'm not sure if this was something I was meant to understand from the beginning and just missed, or if it's another one of those things you pick up as you go. Ages are going to be a little weird. Most of the original crew were mages or ascendants and as such are going to have much longer lives than your average joe. IIRC Whiskeyjack was supposed to have been from a generation after most of them, and he was getting to be an older man by the time the series began. I think the empire was supposed to have been almost a hundred years old at the start of the series.
|
|
#
¿
May 29, 2012 16:57
|
|
|
That was probably "chaining" and not "fall", and there have been multiple chainings, at least one recently.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 26, 2012 22:10
|
|
|
Robot Danger posted:I'm a bit confused. I just about 20% into the second Malazan book. Are the first three considered a trilogy and the rest more stand alone reads? 
|
|
#
¿
Aug 3, 2012 20:33
|
|
|
Stew Man Chew posted:I was also initially not particularly impressed, especially given that it's a sharp left turn away from the style of previous characterizations, but they develop a bit more in future books and get less monkey-cheese-derpish. I don't know that Tehol ever stops being somewhat monkey-cheese-ish, but it's more of a Shakespearean Fool's "I tell the truth while acting like an idiot" than most attempts, and Bugg is largely interesting because of how his presentation contrasts with his true identity.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 1, 2012 18:35
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 03:07 |
|
|
Bardeh posted:
Dassem Ultor was a friend of Whiskeyjack's. We're talking ~50-100 years old IIRC, but anyone that's moderately powerful in this universe tends to live awhile, either due to an accumulation of power or arcane remedies. Kallor is absolutely ancient and as far as I know he retains his youth due to natural remedies. Dassem's on a whole other level at that point, though. Due to the sword he's carrying and his strength of will, I don't think that any collection of gods could have stopped him at that point. Tragic irony, on the other hand...
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2012 23:59
|
|