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Mammon Loves You
Feb 13, 2011


Is there any rule that specifically prohibits trading a player that is on the DL? I ask because the Braves radio guys called David Wright "literally untradeable at the moment".

The only counter example I can think of is Jake Peavy being traded during an injury plagued year but I don't necessarily know he was on the DL when traded.

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ozymandius1024
Mar 14, 2006

Santa Cam bringing fake smiles for all the good little boys and girls


Mammon Loves You posted:

Is there any rule that specifically prohibits trading a player that is on the DL? I ask because the Braves radio guys called David Wright "literally untradeable at the moment".

Nope. As long as the receiving team knows the player is on the DL, and the commissioner signs off on it, it's fine.

Batui
Mar 13, 2005



I was watching the Red Sox game yesterday and saw one of the players get doubled up because he ran from first to second on a caught fly ball and didn't retag second base. It made me realize that I didn't know all the ins and outs of baserunning and when it's a force out and when a tag has to be applied. Like if its always a force out for a baserunner when a fly ball is caught and the baserunner has yet to tag up, and how an unassisted triple play can happen.

zakharov
Nov 30, 2002

One in the pink

Batui posted:

I was watching the Red Sox game yesterday and saw one of the players get doubled up because he ran from first to second on a caught fly ball and didn't retag second base. It made me realize that I didn't know all the ins and outs of baserunning and when it's a force out and when a tag has to be applied. Like if its always a force out for a baserunner when a fly ball is caught and the baserunner has yet to tag up, and how an unassisted triple play can happen.

It's a force if a caught ball reaches a player's base before he tags up. Pretty simple.

An unassisted triple play is rare, but not because it's hard to do. It just requires lots of luck. Almost every UTP has taken the following form:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, we'll call them Runner 1 and Runner 2
No outs (duh)
Hit and run is on
Batter lines out to an infielder (1 out)
Infielder steps on second to force out Runner 2 (2 out)
Infielder tags Runner 1 (3 out)

Deathlove
Feb 20, 2003

Here comes the hook.


Batui posted:

I was watching the Red Sox game yesterday and saw one of the players get doubled up because he ran from first to second on a caught fly ball and didn't retag second base. It made me realize that I didn't know all the ins and outs of baserunning and when it's a force out and when a tag has to be applied. Like if its always a force out for a baserunner when a fly ball is caught and the baserunner has yet to tag up, and how an unassisted triple play can happen.

On a fly ball, the runner must touch the base after the catch is made before they can advance; if they don't, that runner can be either tagged, or be forced at the base they were at, to put them out. If they do, they can only be tagged; they're allowed to stay at the base they were at.

Example: Runner A is at second. Fly ball to left, they take a few steps off the bag. Ball is caught. Runner A must touch second before going to third, or they can stay at second.

Example: Runner A is at second. Fly ball to left, they stay on second. The ball is caught, and they can instantly advance to third (if they want to try); they can only be tagged out. Or, they can stay at second.

Forcing only happens on hits, when the batter has the right to the base. Runner on 1st, batter hits ball, runner must advance to second. Runners on 1st and 2nd, batter hits ball, runner must advance to 2nd, forcing the runner to advance to 3rd. Runner on 2nd, batter hits ball, runner can stay; nothing is forcing them to move.

An unassisted triple play usually happens with two runners in a row (1st/2nd, 2nd/3rd), and a line drive to a fielder, with the runners going. Fielder catches ball (out 1), touches the base that the lead runner was coming off of (out 2), then tags the trailing runner trying to advance (out 3).

Antifreeze Head
Jun 6, 2005

It begins

zakharov posted:

An unassisted triple play is rare, but not because it's hard to do.

That's for sure. As a kid I always figured it was some spectacular, jaw-dropping play. They are completly underwhelming to see (but still cool).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjGA1KC1H2Q

SporkOfTruth
Sep 1, 2006

this kid walked up to me and was like man schmitty your stache is ghetto and I was like whatever man your 3b look like a dishrag.

he was like damn.


Antifreeze Head posted:

That's for sure. As a kid I always figured it was some spectacular, jaw-dropping play. They are completly underwhelming to see (but still cool).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjGA1KC1H2Q

That play you linked is jaw-dropping if you're Jeff Francoeur (cf: I CHALLENGE THEE's avatar).

Related (and somewhat of a trivia question): is it possible to have an triple play where no fielder touches the ball?

Dusseldorf
Mar 29, 2005



SporkOfTruth posted:

Related (and somewhat of a trivia question): is it possible to have an triple play where no fielder touches the ball?

As in the bases are loaded and the ball somehow pinballs between all three baserunners?

Mr. Cool Ass
Mar 4, 2007

I Terrorism


SporkOfTruth posted:

Related (and somewhat of a trivia question): is it possible to have an triple play where no fielder touches the ball?
Yes! The batter hits a grand slam, but before he can run around the bases, the mafia comes and breaks all the runners' legs. They are now out because the batter passes all of them.

Cabbit
Jul 19, 2001

Shines like Gold.


SporkOfTruth posted:

Related (and somewhat of a trivia question): is it possible to have an triple play where no fielder touches the ball?

I guess if the bases are loaded and the batter somehow manages to hit the ball with such resounding force that it strikes each base runner in an astonishing series of rebounds, yeah.

Antifreeze Head
Jun 6, 2005

It begins

SporkOfTruth posted:

That play you linked is jaw-dropping if you're Jeff Francoeur (cf: I CHALLENGE THEE's avatar).

Related (and somewhat of a trivia question): is it possible to have an triple play where no fielder touches the ball?

I read about some way to do it with an infield fly once.

Also, if the bases were loaded and the runners all just abandoned the game.

SporkOfTruth
Sep 1, 2006

this kid walked up to me and was like man schmitty your stache is ghetto and I was like whatever man your 3b look like a dishrag.

he was like damn.


Dusseldorf posted:

As in the bases are loaded and the ball somehow pinballs between all three baserunners?

Cabbit posted:

I guess if the bases are loaded and the batter somehow manages to hit the ball with such resounding force that it strikes each base runner in an astonishing series of rebounds, yeah.

These are possible, and actually factor into the right answer, but...

Antifreeze Head posted:

I read about some way to do it with an infield fly once.

...this is the way I was thinking of. The easiest way for this to happen would be men on 1st and 2nd. Batter pops the ball up in the infield (out #1, via infield fly rule). The man on first advances and accidentally passes the guy at second (out #2), who was taking a bit of a lead. The ball then drops and somehow hits the guy at second -- who was off the base -- on the leg (out #3). Three outs, no fielders.

Wikipedia says that George Will talked about it in a 2009 column, but I first heard of it in the mid 90's at a sports summer camp during a rainout of our baseball period.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Just so we're clear Spork, this is at least a 9.5 on the Stark-Kurkjian Baseball Truly Useless Trivia Nerdlery scale.

Infidel Castro
Jun 8, 2010

WHATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER?!


Badfinger posted:

Just so we're clear Spork, this is at least a 9.5 on the Stark-Kurkjian Baseball Truly Useless Trivia Nerdlery scale.

Even higher than the "Can a team go through an entire half inning batting without recording an PA at bat"?


Answer: Yes




e:

Infidel Castro fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2011 around 08:01

JediGandalf
Sep 3, 2004

All your base, now belongs to me.


Nachtsturm posted:

Even higher than the "Can a team go through an entire half inning batting without recording a PA"?


Answer: Yes
Can this really happen even like in theory like the Unfielded TP?

Bob Shabazz
Oct 21, 2008

At 12:17 a.m. MU police spotted Mauk, 19, run a stop sign while driving his scooter east on Kentucky Boulevard - with two female passengers on board.

e: read it wrong

Infidel Castro
Jun 8, 2010

WHATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER?!


JediGandalf posted:

Can this really happen even like in theory like the Unfielded TP?

Sorry, I meant At Bats.

Also, you can't have an unfielded TP that hits multiple runners. After the ball hits the first runner, the ball's dead.

Politicalrancor
Jan 29, 2008



theoretically a team could go an entire game without recording an at bat? Like they got picked off on the base paths after getting walked everytime.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

CG: IT'S ME AGAIN, ASSHOLE
CG: THE ONE WHO HATES YOU, REMEMBER?


Well, an AB is kind of an arbitrarily defined concept as opposed to a PA, so yeah I guess. In addition to pickoffs, you could also have everyone caught stealing as well.

Orgophlax
Aug 26, 2002




You could also have a team win without registering a hit. Or an AB if you really want to get loopy.

JediGandalf
Sep 3, 2004

All your base, now belongs to me.


Nachtsturm posted:

Sorry, I meant At Bats.

Also, you can't have an unfielded TP that hits multiple runners. After the ball hits the first runner, the ball's dead.
Ah that's a lot more plausible.

Wacky no AB recorded scenario:

Walk
Sac Bunt (1 out)
Sac Fly (2 out)
E4 (presumably a run, no RBI)
Walk
Walk
2B runner picked off (3 out)

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Here stands baseball's perfect warrior.

Here stands baseball's perfect knight.


Couldn't you also have a guy walk, and the next 3 batters ground into a fielder's choice? That's also a lot more plausible than 3 pickoffs or CS

Bob Shabazz
Oct 21, 2008

At 12:17 a.m. MU police spotted Mauk, 19, run a stop sign while driving his scooter east on Kentucky Boulevard - with two female passengers on board.

Groucho Marxist posted:

Couldn't you also have a guy walk, and the next 3 batters ground into a fielder's choice? That's also a lot more plausible than 3 pickoffs or CS

A fielder's choice is an AB, I think.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

CG: IT'S ME AGAIN, ASSHOLE
CG: THE ONE WHO HATES YOU, REMEMBER?


Doesn't a fielder's choice count as an AB?

I am Bob
Apr 29, 2009


Orgophlax posted:

You could also have a team win without registering a hit. Or an AB if you really want to get loopy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/colum..._tim&id=3465888

No hit wins have apparently happened 5 times since 1900.


And you can apparently allow no hits but not throw a no-hitter.

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Here stands baseball's perfect warrior.

Here stands baseball's perfect knight.


Yeah I just looked it up, it does count as an AB.

stuart scott irl
Mar 9, 2007



If it didn't, Raul Ibanez would not nearly be penalized enough for his weak ground outs to second

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

JediGandalf posted:

Ah that's a lot more plausible.

Wacky no AB recorded scenario:

Walk
Sac Bunt (1 out)
Sac Fly (2 out)
E4 (presumably a run, no RBI)
Walk
Walk
2B runner picked off (3 out)
Unless your sac fly scores a runner from second, there has to be a steal or something in here because a sac fly is only scored as such if a runner scores. Otherwise, it's just a flyout and the runner advances.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


Also, an error is scored as an AB, unless I am really confused.

JediGandalf
Sep 3, 2004

All your base, now belongs to me.


Wikipedia on "At-Bats" posted:

A batter starts with an at bat every time he faces a pitcher; however, the batter gets "no time at bat" in the following circumstances:
  • He receives a base on balls (BB).[1]
  • He is hit by a pitch (HBP).
  • He hits a sacrifice fly or a sacrifice hit (also known as sacrifice bunt).
  • He is awarded first base due to interference or obstruction, usually by the catcher.
  • The inning ends while he is still at bat (due to the third out being made by a runner caught stealing, for example). In this case, the batter will come to bat again in the next inning, though he now has no balls or strikes on him.
  • He is replaced by another hitter before his at bat is completed (unless he is replaced with two strikes and his replacement strikes out).
So errors DO count as ABs.

Related tangent: Are ABs really purposeful or would everything be better off if PA were used? For shits and giggles, Joey Bats would have a .280/.502/.602/1.104 if PA were used instead of AB.

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

If a balk is called when the count is 3-X, is that just considered a walk?

Orgophlax
Aug 26, 2002




JediGandalf posted:

So errors DO count as ABs.

Related tangent: Are ABs really purposeful or would everything be better off if PA were used? For shits and giggles, Joey Bats would have a .280/.502/.602/1.104 if PA were used instead of AB.
Using pure PA to figure out batting average hurts the player since it would factor in walks & HBPs as nonhits. That's what on base percentage is for (then OPS beyond that).

EDIT:

Oodles of Wootles posted:

If a balk is called when the count is 3-X, is that just considered a walk?
A balk does not add a ball to the count, it merely lets the runner(s) advance a base. So no, it wouldn't be a walk.

Orgophlax fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2011 around 18:58

ayn rand hand job
Sep 10, 2008

   'Cause she's so high
      High above me,
       she's so lovely
           
     - Everclear


JediGandalf posted:

So errors DO count as ABs.

Related tangent: Are ABs really purposeful or would everything be better off if PA were used? For shits and giggles, Joey Bats would have a .280/.502/.602/1.104 if PA were used instead of AB.

Errors* count as at-bat as the ball was still put into play. *-excluding catcher's interference.

ABs have a good statistical purpose. They're supposed to evaluate the batter's performance at the plate. They remove PAs where the batter was attempting to do something for the team (sacrificing) or not entirely responsible for (walks/catcher's interference).

You could potentially have a player with a .000 BA and a 1.000 OBP if we just considered plate appearances only. It's not a good diagnostic tool.

Infidel Castro
Jun 8, 2010

WHATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER?!


Real life almost happened no-AB inning scenario

Brewers @ Phillies - 18 Apr 2011 - Top 12th posted:

* Rickie Weeks walks.

* Carlos Gomez hits a sacrifice bunt. Throwing error by pitcher Kyle Kendrick. Rickie Weeks to 3rd. Carlos Gomez to 1st.

* Ryan Braun out on a sacrifice fly to center fielder Shane Victorino. Rickie Weeks scores.

* Prince Fielder hit by pitch. Carlos Gomez to 2nd.

* With Casey McGehee batting, wild pitch by Kyle Kendrick, Carlos Gomez to 3rd. Prince Fielder to 2nd.

* Kyle Kendrick intentionally walks Casey McGehee.

* Yuniesky Betancourt out on a sacrifice fly to left fielder Raul Ibanez. Carlos Gomez scores. Prince Fielder to 3rd. Casey McGehee to 2nd.

* Kyle Kendrick intentionally walks Mark Kotsay.

* Jonathan Lucroy singles on a ground ball to right fielder Ben Francisco. Prince Fielder scores. Casey McGehee out at home on the throw, right fielder Ben Francisco to catcher Carlos Ruiz. (FIRST OFFICIAL AT-BAT OF INNING)

Now let's say Kendrick airmails the ball to the backstop. McGehee tries to score on the wild pitch, but gets tagged out. No AB for Lucroy, 3 outs in the inning.

Since runs scored as well, it's theoretically possible to have a full game with no official ABs recorded, but the odds of that happening are pretty much nil.

Infidel Castro fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2011 around 19:20

Mammon Loves You
Feb 13, 2011


Orgophlax posted:

A balk does not add a ball to the count, it merely lets the runner(s) advance a base. So no, it wouldn't be a walk.

You can balk with no runners on can't you? Doesn't that add to the ball count?

Orgophlax
Aug 26, 2002




Mammon Loves You posted:

You can balk with no runners on can't you? Doesn't that add to the ball count?
Looking it up, only very very select circumstances does it add a ball. But for the most part, no.

Wikipedia posted:

If no runners are on base and the pitcher commits an otherwise balkable action, there generally is no penalty. However, delivering a quick return or pitching while off the rubber (which constitute balks when runners are on base) results in a ball being called with the bases empty.

Traxis
Jul 2, 2006



I saw the title of the N/V thread and it got me thinking; what would happen if every team in the league did finish at .500? I would love to see a big single elimination tournament to choose the top 4 teams in each league.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Generally the things that automatically add a ball to the count aren't "balks". Taking way too long between pitches, going to your mouth on the mound, stuff like that.


vvv It might be, technically in the rule book I suppose. I don't think of balks as causing a ball to be added to the count.

Badfinger fucked around with this message at Jun 2, 2011 around 20:02

Oodles of Wootles
Nov 8, 2008

safe

Badfinger posted:

Generally the things that automatically add a ball to the count aren't "balks". Taking way too long between pitches, going to your mouth on the mound, stuff like that.
Ah, that was my confusion. I thought taking too long between pitches was a balk.

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ayn rand hand job
Sep 10, 2008

   'Cause she's so high
      High above me,
       she's so lovely
           
     - Everclear


Badfinger posted:

Generally the things that automatically add a ball to the count aren't "balks". Taking way too long between pitches, going to your mouth on the mound, stuff like that.


vvv It might be, technically in the rule book I suppose. I don't think of balks as causing a ball to be added to the count.

Quick return pitches and pitching off the rubber count as illegal pitches and are called balls. An illegal pitch will also result in a balk with men on base.

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