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Don Huevos
Feb 25, 2011


This is more of an issue of semantics, but i've always been curious -
Who, generally speaking, makes it on the batting order? Is it a requirement that the 9 position players be part of a days batting order? Or is it anyone from the 25 man roster?

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OdinsBeard
Jul 12, 2003

Type 'iddqd' into the console to enable Beast Mode.


One thing about using wOBA from fangraphs: it is not normalized for league/park (or it wasn't last time I checked). I believe wRC+ is, however.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..


f0rtis posted:

This is more of an issue of semantics, but i've always been curious -
Who, generally speaking, makes it on the batting order? Is it a requirement that the 9 position players be part of a days batting order? Or is it anyone from the 25 man roster?

Making the batting order is the theoretical responsibility of the manager, but the physical writing down of it is usually delegated to an underling. This resulted in some embarrassment for the Jays this season when the bench coach absent-mindedly wrote in the wrong player, effectively removing a player from the game.

The batting order must correspond to either the 8 position players and pitcher (NL) or 8 position players and DH (AL). In the American League if the DH is moved into the field then the 'DH' position is lost, and that spot in the batting order is then filled by the pitcher.

purkey
Dec 5, 2003

I hate the 90s


I am Bob posted:

Yeah I live in Columbus and will have several days off during the week in the summer, which makes it much easier to go to Clippers' games than Indians' games, and I would imagine actually knowing about a guy and what he might develop into for the Indians before going to a game would make it much more enjoyable.

And holy crap, I had been thinking of picking up the 2011 Baseball Prospectus but until now I didn't even think of looking up how much it costs because I figured it was dozens of dollars for whatever reason, but I can get it at Walmart for 16 bucks, awesome.

BP 2011 is $13 on Amazon if you don't mind waiting a couple of days. It's not great but not a bad time killer.

I am Bob
Apr 29, 2009


Who has been the best hitting pitcher since the DH was implemented and has a pitcher ever been used regularly as a pinch hitter on off days? I remember seeing Zambrano do it once or twice I think, along with Dontrelle Willis, but I was curious if there were any others.

trillocity
Apr 16, 2008


^^^Yovani Gallardo is a pretty decent hitter, but I don't think he'd ever pinch hit.

After doing a couple seasons of fantasy baseball, I'd really like to delve into the real thing a little more.

The statistics seem pretty cool, and I'll look into them a little more, but I think my main problem is that I have trouble sitting through an entire game. How do you cope with that?

I'm not trying to say baseball is boring, but I have difficulty watching games on TV and I'd like to fix that

OdinsBeard
Jul 12, 2003

Type 'iddqd' into the console to enable Beast Mode.


Gee Wizard posted:

After doing a couple seasons of fantasy baseball, I'd really like to delve into the real thing a little more.

The statistics seem pretty cool, and I'll look into them a little more, but I think my main problem is that I have trouble sitting through an entire game. How do you cope with that?

I'm not trying to say baseball is boring, but I have difficulty watching games on TV and I'd like to fix that

Dick around on your computer and post in Gameday Threads. I can also read and follow a baseball game at the same time without losing much, if any, of either.

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..


I am Bob posted:

Who has been the best hitting pitcher since the DH was implemented and has a pitcher ever been used regularly as a pinch hitter on off days? I remember seeing Zambrano do it once or twice I think, along with Dontrelle Willis, but I was curious if there were any others.

I would be quite surprised if the answer isn't Micah Owings. His career line is 293/323/538

Bob Shabazz
Oct 21, 2008

At 12:17 a.m. MU police spotted Mauk, 19, run a stop sign while driving his scooter east on Kentucky Boulevard - with two female passengers on board.

Hand Knit posted:

I would be quite surprised if the answer isn't Micah Owings. His career line is 293/323/538

Micah Owings is top among all post-expansion pitchers, Brandon Backe is second with .256/.317/.414. Among all pitchers with any sort of a sustained career the best are probably Mike Hampton and Ken Brett.

Bob Shabazz
Oct 21, 2008

At 12:17 a.m. MU police spotted Mauk, 19, run a stop sign while driving his scooter east on Kentucky Boulevard - with two female passengers on board.

Ken Brett owns by the way

Ken Brett posted:

In high school, I was also an outfielder and a pretty good hitter. I always thought my being able to hit helped me in games, and I pinch-hit a lot for pitchers, although there were a couple times in Pittsburgh when I hit for Kurt Bevacqua. He didn't like that much.

Spoeank
Jul 16, 2003

"If I cannot inspire love, I will cause fear; and chiefly towards you my arch-enemy... do I swear inextinguishable hatred."


Gee Wizard posted:

I'm not trying to say baseball is boring, but I have difficulty watching games on TV and I'd like to fix that

If they do it again (and I don't see why they wouldn't) you could always watch games on MLB.tv Mosaic. There's plenty to see when you're watching multiple games at once.

CountingCrows
Apr 17, 2001


Is it really a balk if the pitcher touches his face (lips?)? Is it because if he gets spit on the ball it will have unpredictable movement and therefore be harder to hit? Is this ever called? What about when pitchers blow on their hands in a New York November?

Are there any other super rare rules that get called like once a season that I should look out for? Are there any really funny rules/situations that get called?

Farchanter
Jun 15, 2008


I am Bob posted:

Who has been the best hitting pitcher since the DH was implemented and has a pitcher ever been used regularly as a pinch hitter on off days? I remember seeing Zambrano do it once or twice I think, along with Dontrelle Willis, but I was curious if there were any others.

The Phillies will occasionally use Cole Hamels as a pinch hitter if they've botched all of their other options.

Although his career statistics aren't quite the same as some of the pitchers mentioned above me, Dan Haren had an outstanding offensive year with the Diamondbacks (.364/ .375/ .527,) but he got traded into the American League at the trade deadline an probably won't be much of an offensive factor this year.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Monkey Wrangler posted:

Let's shift topics.

I'm not a super newbie to the statistical revolution but you guys are way ahead of where I am. Is there a generally agreed upon stat for various portions of the game?

Like, I generally use BBR's OPS+ to determine how good a guy's season was relative to an average player. But then I read about wOBA and O/D WAR and now I'm a bit confused. You guys also mentioned OOPS as opposed to WHIP.

What's the preferred stat to generally explain how good a guy is at offense, defense or pitching? (Yes I realize I'm kinda opening a can of worms here but after three pages of steroids chat I'll take anything.)

The short answer is that using OPS is ALMOST as good as using the most popular advanced statistics.

The point of offense in baseball isn't taking walks, hitting dingers, movin' the runner over, it's to score runs. So people have done studies to figure out what offensive stats show the best correlation to run scoring, and while wOBA and wRC+ are the current cream of the crop, OPS is within like 5% of them. For a quick-and-dirty, it's a fantastic statistic.

Gee Wizard posted:

The statistics seem pretty cool, and I'll look into them a little more, but I think my main problem is that I have trouble sitting through an entire game. How do you cope with that?

I'm not trying to say baseball is boring, but I have difficulty watching games on TV and I'd like to fix that

Those middle innings of a game do tend to drag. It happens, especially if you're watching a game where the score ends up 5-3 and there were 11 pitchers used. Twitter is awesome. You can watch people be mad about baseball all across the country, it's excellent. MLB.tv lets you watch up to 4 games at once.

If you're not ready to take the plunge on your own account, read up on this thread and see if sharing an account is something worth your time.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3378535

TUS
Feb 19, 2003

I'm going to stab you. Offline. With a real knife.


CountingCrows posted:

Is it really a balk if the pitcher touches his face (lips?)? Is it because if he gets spit on the ball it will have unpredictable movement and therefore be harder to hit? Is this ever called? What about when pitchers blow on their hands in a New York November?

Are there any other super rare rules that get called like once a season that I should look out for? Are there any really funny rules/situations that get called?

One of the funnier ones last year was the Don Mattingly double mound visit. The rule is that you can only visit the mound once per inning (as a coach) the second time you have to make a pitching change. Mattingly went to the mound to talk to Broxton (I think) and was making his way back. Stepping off the mound onto the infield grass is considered "having left" the mound and right after stepping off, Mattingly went back on the mound, which based on the rules, was his second visit so he had to pull Broxton, even though he hadn't gone more then 10 feet away from him.

edit- I forgot why Torre wasn't there.

Bung Harmer
Jun 20, 2004
Appalachian Hillbilly Dumbass, Fucked in the Head, Needs Help


Someone already recommended Moneyball and in the N/V someone mentioned The Extra 2%, which just came out. I know there was an old baseball book thread which I can't find. Someone want to post a good recommended reading list?

stuart scott irl
Mar 9, 2007



CountingCrows posted:

Is it really a balk if the pitcher touches his face (lips?)? Is it because if he gets spit on the ball it will have unpredictable movement and therefore be harder to hit? Is this ever called? What about when pitchers blow on their hands in a New York November?

I believe going to the mouth while you're on the mound is an automatic ball, not a balk, and they will call that. It happened a few times last year I think.

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


stuart scott irl is right, going to the mouth is an automatic ball not a balk

Grittybeard
Mar 29, 2010


Politicalrancor posted:

Are reports that Ted Williams was pretty bad in the field true?

I hesitate to answer something in the newbie thread since I probably qualify as one myself. And I'm not familiar enough with the posters to know if this is just a transparent attempt to avoid steroid chat. But to expand on "he was a lazy poo poo" I've always gotten the impression Williams was a (waaaaay better) Manny Ramirez. He played the field since doing that allowed him to hit, hitting was what the man was about.

This could be a total media creation of the day back then that I've fallen for. Baseball reference only has his Total Zone Rating numbers from when he was 35 years old on. His numbers from 35-38 are slightly above league average and then get ugly from 39 to 41, which doesn't mean he was bad, just ancient.

I don't pretend to understand total zone rating other than that it was developed as something you can look up through retrosheet where UZR and Dewan +/- is preferred if available.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



It's probably a media creation. The media HATED Williams, like Barry Bonds style.

Reformed Pissboy
Nov 6, 2003

adsfffyoao

I thought I remembered reading something about Williams saying when he retired that he wished he had worked more on his fielding, but all I can find are vague unsourced references on wikipedia

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



the popes toes posted:

I'll add to leokitty's post with something I've always thought odd. Scouts use a 20 to 80 numerical system to grade those tools with 20 being the worst, 80 the best, and 50 being MLB average. For instance Baseball America's rating, only because it's so easily available, has Mike Trout of the Royals with 80 speed and Bryce Harper of the Nats with 80 power.

To a degree it's an evaluation of their current level combined with what their ceiling projects to. Considering their ceiling is important because it's absurd to say that Harper, recently out of HS, has an 80 MLB bat.


The 20-80 scale is a weird thing because it's supposed to be a bit of a bell curve, but a lot of people don't get that part. The scouts who do get it hate the ones who don't get it.

That being said, 80 is not just the "best score" but an "incredible" score. There have only been a couple prospects in the history of baseball with 80 power 80 speed scores. 65 is a very good score and can get a prospect in the BA top 100. Keith Law points out that even a 50 is not a bad score. It's an average score and that means that a whole lot of prospects aren't as good as you.

Scouting scores aren't like movie ratings. Getting an "average" score doesn't make a prospect something you want to pass on.

Joe Don Baker posted:

Someone already recommended Moneyball and in the N/V someone mentioned The Extra 2%, which just came out. I know there was an old baseball book thread which I can't find. Someone want to post a good recommended reading list?


Read Baseball Between the Numbers. It's a little dry at times but a great book.

Also, Podcasts:

Up and In (The Baseball Prospectus Podcast): http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/up-...tus/id375198934

Jonah Keri (author of The Extra 2%): http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...ast/id398939840


tadashi fucked around with this message at Mar 8, 2011 around 17:02

TUS
Feb 19, 2003

I'm going to stab you. Offline. With a real knife.


Kind of a 2 parter based on scouting scores-

Is it based on what the prospect has already proven or what their ceiling is? Like a guy who is rated 65-70 in power.. has already smashed taters in school or is there a feeling that working on certain mechanics, he will be smashing them taters? Or both?

When a prospect busts, is there a way to figure out why in comparison to how he was scored? Like Brandon Wood in LA, for example. I mean, speed is speed and if he's ranked high, he's objectively fast, but a high scored power or contact hitter, doesn't hit for power or contact?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Lots of scouts do a current (typically ML equivalency, if you put the guy in to MLB right now how would he grade) and potential (if this guy reaches his ultimate ceiling, how would he grade).

Monkey Wrangler
Jun 1, 2003
Shark Week Victim #79!

Gee Wizard posted:

I'm not trying to say baseball is boring, but I have difficulty watching games on TV and I'd like to fix that

Gameday threads help with this; at least, they did in football. I'm not a football fan in any traditional sense but the gameday threads added a new layer of interesting poo poo and helped break up some of the monotony. It's kinda like being at a sports bar only people understand why Tony La Russa sucks.

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


Joe Don Baker posted:

Someone already recommended Moneyball and in the N/V someone mentioned The Extra 2%, which just came out. I know there was an old baseball book thread which I can't find. Someone want to post a good recommended reading list?

If you have archives: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3313858

I wish I could quote archived posts because there are a lot of amazon links in there that I'm not going to manually type out.


We could also make a new book thread. I'm always looking for stuff to read.

kensei
Dec 27, 2007

I do martial arts and eat pizza, I'm basically a ninja turtle.


angrygodofjebus posted:

If you have archives: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3313858

I wish I could quote archived posts because there are a lot of amazon links in there that I'm not going to manually type out.


We could also make a new book thread. I'm always looking for stuff to read.

You can right click and copy the link for HTML in FF/Chrome, which owns. If someone makes a new book thread I'll link it in the MLB N/V OP. I added this thread today.

the popes toes
Oct 10, 2004

10 bucks says I'm safe

Speaking of scouts, most place what one might think as an inordinate positive weight to what they typically refer to as a "projectable body type".

Position players might have different ideal body types than pitchers, but you can be sure both include large tall bodies with frames that can fill out with muscle when mature.

This predisposition makes it extremely hard for guys with bodies like Brian Roberts and Dustin Pedroia to succeed. Their lack of size is an immediate career liability that is incredibly tough to overcome in the MLB system.

barkingclam
Jun 20, 2007


Joe Don Baker posted:

Someone already recommended Moneyball and in the N/V someone mentioned The Extra 2%, which just came out. I know there was an old baseball book thread which I can't find. Someone want to post a good recommended reading list?

I enjoyed the Bill James Historical Abstract, especially when he breaks down stuff like the top 100 players at each position, how the game's changed through the decades and names the "ugliest player of the decade".

Has anybody read Dollar Sign on the Muscle? It's one I've been trying to find a copy of for a while.

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Here stands baseball's perfect warrior.

Here stands baseball's perfect knight.


I have another prospect question. Moustakas and Hosmer are starting the season in AAA. Don't most highly touted prospects skip AAA completely? If so, why?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Groucho Marxist posted:

I have another prospect question. Moustakas and Hosmer are starting the season in AAA. Don't most highly touted prospects skip AAA completely? If so, why?

I don't know about most. Some superelite prospects skip AAA because they're MLB ready after AA and they play for a contending team with a hole. I think generally prospects are sent to AAA rather than being called up from AA for a couple reasons.

1. Avoid starting service time clock. Why burn a year on either of those guys for a Royals team that will be lucky to win 70 games?
2. Working on something specific - hitting lefthanders/righthanders, working on a specific pitch, things like that. AAA is a better environment for player development than MLB since you can gently caress up without much consequence.

In general there's not a whole lot of talent disparity between AA and AAA - maybe some polish disparity. AA is typically mostly prospects or things that can turn in to prospects; AAA is more skewed towards AAAA players and MiLB FAs or journeymen trying to work their way back in to the bigs.

Jerkface
May 21, 2001


"HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE POOR, MOTHERFUCKER?

barkingclam posted:

I enjoyed the Bill James Historical Abstract, especially when he breaks down stuff like the top 100 players at each position, how the game's changed through the decades and names the "ugliest player of the decade".

Has anybody read Dollar Sign on the Muscle? It's one I've been trying to find a copy of for a while.

We had a thread about it, but only 2 of us had the book or something. We posted some good quotes from it. Its very good, check your library. My local one had 1 copy.

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



Groucho Marxist posted:

I have another prospect question. Moustakas and Hosmer are starting the season in AAA. Don't most highly touted prospects skip AAA completely? If so, why?

Not always. AAA is only slightly tougher than AA and is often used as more of a holding tank for fringe MLB players who can be called up as roster filler. So it's not like it's a whole new level of competition that a prospect has to master to prove they're MLB-ready; it's rare for a prospect to destroy AA and then flop in AAA. However, since it is slightly more difficult, teams will tend to send prospects who are on the cusp of being MLB-ready there, and then call them up when their AAA stat line is too good to ignore and the 'extra year of control/pre-arb' cutoffs have passed.

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


Groucho Marxist posted:

I have another prospect question. Moustakas and Hosmer are starting the season in AAA. Don't most highly touted prospects skip AAA completely? If so, why?

AAA is full of organizational filler and AAAA guys who couldn't quite figure it out. Like in the earlier Dom Brown discussion, top prospects need to face quality pitching/hitting which they simply won't find in AAA. It's a quality of play issue.

Tales of Woe
Dec 17, 2004



Not exactly related, but from what I understand, the big jumps in league difficulty are high-A to AA, and AAA to MLB.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



I don't think there is an exact rule for AA vs. AAA. It really depends on the organization but usually players end up in AAA for at least a part of a season. It is used to often avoid Super 2 status for players who you think will be brought up in June. These are players like Hosmer or Strasbourg who you want to come up to the ML level, but you don't want them to be arbitration eligable after their second season. You usually see this on teams who are building to the future like KC and Washington.

Looking through some of the better rookies last year:
Heyward - played 3 games at AAA in '09 before starting 2010 in Atlanta.
Poesy - played a season and a half at AAA.
Tyler Colvin - skipped AAA
Starlin Castro - skipped AAA
Neftali Feliz - playeed 2009 in AAA
Strasbourg - fast tracked to the Nats in 2010 but called up early after an injury in the rotation.
Austin Jackson - 2009 in AAA
Danny Valencia -2009 and part of '10 in AAA


Here's a question I have trouble with: At what point is a guy who can steal bases more valuable than a guy who doesn't steal bases but gets on base more? So is there a formula or general rule of thumb? That is, if I can't get to the internet and see offensive WAR?

JediGandalf
Sep 3, 2004

All your base, now belongs to me.


TUS posted:

One of the funnier ones last year was the Don Mattingly double mound visit. The rule is that you can only visit the mound once per inning (as a coach) the second time you have to make a pitching change. Mattingly went to the mound to talk to Broxton (I think) and was making his way back. Stepping off the mound onto the infield grass is considered "having left" the mound and right after stepping off, Mattingly went back on the mound, which based on the rules, was his second visit so he had to pull Broxton, even though he hadn't gone more then 10 feet away from him.

edit- I forgot why Torre wasn't there.
Ah that game. Torre got ejected for arguing a call or something. That was pretty hilarious. Pretty heads up by Bochy seeing that. Dodgers had to bring in George Sherill and...well you guys can imagine what happened soon after. That whole game was one big clusterfuck

CountingCrows posted:

Is it really a balk if the pitcher touches his face (lips?)? Is it because if he gets spit on the ball it will have unpredictable movement and therefore be harder to hit? Is this ever called? What about when pitchers blow on their hands in a New York November?
Allow me to dig up the rule book, here...

MLB Rule 8.02 posted:

(a) (1) Bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.
PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president. "
The penalty for a pitcher licking his fingers on the mound is a ball. If the batter has 3 balls on him this would be considered the fourth ball and the batter would be credited with a base on balls. There is no penalty for a pitcher licking his fingers while not on the pitching mound as long as he wipes his fingers off prior to stepping onto the pitching mound.

Counting Crows posted:

Are there any other super rare rules that get called like once a season that I should look out for? Are there any really funny rules/situations that get called?
Balks are the only thing that I can think of that rarely get called. I think what pisses people off is that they don't know what constitutes a balk. As a pitcher, when you're on that rubber, you have to deliver the pitch a pretty specific way as to not unfairly deceive hitter/baserunner(s).

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



tadashi posted:

Here's a question I have trouble with: At what point is a guy who can steal bases more valuable than a guy who doesn't steal bases but gets on base more? So is there a formula or general rule of thumb?

This doesn't quite answer your question, but break-even on SB value is a 75% conversion rate. So if you're not succeeding more than 75% of the time you are actively hurting your team. Nice.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


With Hosmer and Moustakas particularly, their weaknesses are plate discipline/pitch recognition and they both had some serious underperformance in the low minors before last season. In that case, AAA time is probably warranted for consolidation purposes and to make sure they won't start swinging at everything when they see good breaking pitches and advanced pitch sequences and so forth.

There isn't a set path for these things, it varies by organization and player.

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tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

This doesn't quite answer your question, but break-even on SB value is a 75% conversion rate. So if you're not succeeding more than 75% of the time you are actively hurting your team. Nice.

And learning this lesson will make you squirm every time you hear a manager say: We're going to steal more. As though he can just will his players to be better at it.

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