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ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

R.D. Mangles posted:

I wish Santo's family would accept the award while wearing t-shirts that spell out the phrase "gently caress This Bullshit" and then literally burn the hall of fame to cinders.

Before Barrold gets to?

I really hope he lays waste to a ton of people. And not in the petty, stupid, childish, Michael Jordan way either.

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Quasimango
Mar 10, 2011

God damn you.

jeffersonlives posted:

If you look at the biggest HOF snubs, three of the names that will come up most frequently are Tim Raines, Minnie Minoso, and Dick Allen, the latter two of whom are almost certainly out because of their race and the former of which has been snubbed for virtually no reason at all. Meanwhile, if you look at the list of biggest HOF reaches, it's Jim Rice and a bunch of white faces.

I can't say with any certainty whether there's a racial bias component to HOF voting, but given the checkered history of both baseball and sportswriters on this topic, it's not exactly a great logical leap.

On the other hand, the two most borderline people to get into the HOF in recent years are Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, while Lee Smith, who is not a Hall of Famer, got 50% of votes last ballot. I can't speak for earlier decades (though I don't think Dick Allen is a huge snub), but I really can't see any case for racial bias at all in recent ballots.

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

Quasimango posted:

(though I don't think Dick Allen is a huge snub)

Someone can make this case more completely than I can, but in short: the only 3 players with a higher career OPS+ than Dick Allen that aren't in the Hall of Fame are Shoeless Joe Jackson (who is of course ineligible) and two dudes from the 1880s. He's tied with Willie Mays and one ahead of Hank Aaron.

Quasimango
Mar 10, 2011

God damn you.

Yes, but he also played many less games than any HOFer near him on that list apart from Greenberg and DiMaggio, who had the war take out their prime. Allen only really had about six and a bit full seasons, plus he was a horrifically bad fielder.

I'd have no big problem with him being in the HOF - his stats case is very similar to Lance Berkman - but I think there are reasons for him not being in it that aren't to do with his race.

ayn rand hand job
Sep 10, 2008

   'Cause she's so high
      High above me,
       she's so lovely
           
     - Everclear


R.D. Mangles posted:

I wish Santo's family would accept the award while wearing t-shirts that spell out the phrase "gently caress This Bullshit" and then literally burn the hall of fame to cinders.

Please don't the HOF is a cool place and the BBWAA don't even headquarter there.

Plus all the old baseball memorbilia

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


Quasimango posted:

On the other hand, the two most borderline people to get into the HOF in recent years are Andre Dawson and Jim Rice, while Lee Smith, who is not a Hall of Famer, got 50% of votes last ballot. I can't speak for earlier decades (though I don't think Dick Allen is a huge snub), but I really can't see any case for racial bias at all in recent ballots.

Andre Dawson isn't nearly as borderline as you'd think. He probably should have been in, and most of the complaining was some flavor of that they were putting him in ahead of Raines and that there were a lot of people at Dawson's level that should have been in. The HOF is inducting a lot fewer post-war players than pre-war players, which in turn means there's a lot fewer MLB players of color in general for obvious reasons.

Lee Smith got 40 percent on his first ballot and isn't going to make it in, which is unusual. There's really no rhyme or reason why he won't; Bruce Sutter made it in as a worse candidate in both traditional counting and value stats, and that's the contemporary competitor at the position. They both shouldn't be in, of course, but when Trevor Hoffman (who also shouldn't be in) sails in a few years from now, it will seem even stranger that Smith wasn't inducted. Why? I don't know.

We're talking about an institution that took thirty years after integration to realize that they had to start putting Negro League guys in, and another thirty after that just to get most of the guys they should have had in sixty years earlier. And they still missed a few. Many of the people who participated in those horrific decisions are still making the decisions today.

Quasimango posted:

I'd have no big problem with him being in the HOF - his stats case is very similar to Lance Berkman - but I think there are reasons for him not being in it that aren't to do with his race.

No, there really aren't. The entirety of the case against him is bullshit malcontent reasons. His stats are only superficially similar to Berkman if you remove all league and park context.

eta: I mean, this is an institution that put a female white co-owner of a moderately successful Negro League franchise in over Buck O'Neil, Minnie Minoso, Oliver Marcelle, John Beckwith, etc. in the final vote (at least for this generation) to try and catch up on all the early black baseball figures they missed.

jeffersonlives fucked around with this message at May 26, 2012 around 16:46

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

Everything about Dick Allen's experience and time in leading up to and in MLB is about race relations. Especially with how he was constantly compared by his contemporary media to Richie Ashburn and excoriated for not being like him.

You can make a playing time case to not have Dick Allen in the Hall but if you go through and read this is not what ever happens when he is brought up. Hell even Bill James bought into the malcontent bullshit and it is the worst chapter in Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame (or maybe tied with the Pete Rose one).

If you're interested in his time in Philadelphia and how everything turned out the way it did for him you should read September Swoon. Fact is while he didn't behave very well as things started to go south nobody on the team seemed to have any interested in helping him out with things like fans throwing full soda cans at him.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


leokitty posted:

If you're interested in his time in Philadelphia and how everything turned out the way it did for him you should read September Swoon. Fact is while he didn't behave very well as things started to go south nobody on the team seemed to have any interested in helping him out with things like fans throwing full soda cans at him.

Most of the things that get brought up for Philly fans being horrible the worst are complete bullshit, but Dick Allen's treatment with the Phillies is the one I feel genuine shame about, regardless of the fact that I had even less to do with that than any contemporary Stupid Fan Thing.

If you were to build a true case of Philadelphia being the worst at sports fandom, that's the event you start with. Please don't though, there are already too many lovely articles on the subject.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

KEMvP


edit: this isn't the N/V thread

bawfuls fucked around with this message at May 27, 2012 around 06:29

DannoMack
Aug 1, 2003

i love it when you call me big poppa


How was the Miggy trade viewed at the time by the posters here?

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


DannoMack posted:

How was the Miggy trade viewed at the time by the posters here?

Mixed, some MY PROSPECTS type reactions that look silly in retrospect because the Tigers gave up highly ranked guys and any trade involving that is going to have those sorts of thoughts.

eta: It's easy to forget this now, but both Maybin and Miller at the time were viewed as super-elite guys, future studs. Especially Maybin.

jeffersonlives fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 22:30

zakharov
Nov 30, 2002

One in the pink

Haha people being super psyched to get Dontrelle

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

Ah the first of the recent 1000 run teams predictions by the MSM

e:

me posted:

don't know if this is a win now situation, they have pretty young pitching outside of rogers and granderson/cabrera could easily be the core of a team for a while.

leokitty fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 23:23

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


The Angels package included Nick Adenhart

The broken bones
Jan 3, 2008

Out beyond winning and losing, there is a field.

I will meet you there.

I CHALLENGE THEE posted:

The Angels package included Nick Adenhart

Dave Dombrowski killed Adenhart

JediGandalf
Sep 3, 2004

All your base, now belongs to me.


leokitty posted:

EXTREME HITTER LEAGUES
- California
- Pacific Coast
- Texas

EXTREME PITCHER LEAGUES
- Eastern League
- Florida State

After that you have some parks that are very mean or nice to hitters and pitchers but nothing universal.
Wasn't Portland very pitcher friendly before they relocated to Tucson?

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

JediGandalf posted:

Wasn't Portland very pitcher friendly before they relocated to Tucson?

One park does not change the run environment of an entire league. Almost every park in the PCL has environmental conditions that make it crazy town. New Orleans and Tacoma are pretty neutral.

leokitty fucked around with this message at May 29, 2012 around 05:49

Dr. Kyle Farnsworth
Apr 23, 2004

"He's a great baker. He's Betty Crocker. He makes the best peanut butter cookies ever."

DannoMack posted:

That's all really interesting. I mentioned the racial bias in a conversation then realises if anyone asked me why I thought this my response was just "because everyone on SAS says so...." so I thought I should actually learn a little about it.

There's a Kickstarter a bunch of us contributed to called Scorekeeping that's actually doing a study on racial bias in baseball broadcasts.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011



So, I know Joe Morgan is/was a really lovely analyst, but why does he hate stats so much? He was the kind of player that sabermetrics and other advanced stats vindicate. Is it just one of the great ironies of baseball?

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


Declan MacManus posted:

So, I know Joe Morgan is/was a really lovely analyst, but why does he hate stats so much? He was the kind of player that sabermetrics and other advanced stats vindicate. Is it just one of the great ironies of baseball?

Yes, it is one of the great ironies of baseball, and the reason is probably just that he has been involved in baseball a long time and feels threatened and disrespected by "them new kids" trying to tell him there is something he doesn't know about baseball. He is probably not a bad guy or even that "dumb," even if he is ignorant about an important part of baseball. He just became an icon for old school closed-mindedness about stats.

Dusseldorf
Mar 29, 2005



Declan MacManus posted:

So, I know Joe Morgan is/was a really lovely analyst, but why does he hate stats so much? He was the kind of player that sabermetrics and other advanced stats vindicate. Is it just one of the great ironies of baseball?

Basically, but baseball as a whole has chilled out a whole lot about the application of sabermetric analysis since things like Fire Joe Morgan came into existence.

Medical Sword
May 23, 2005

Goghing, Goghing, gone


Dusseldorf posted:

Basically, but baseball as a whole has chilled out a whole lot about the application of sabermetric analysis since things like Fire Joe Morgan came into existence.

From a business standpoint it has because the desire in management to exploit market inefficiencies and field a good team->make money is stronger than ~old school~ bullshit but there is still an entire ridiculous culture war going on between MLB fans. It's not just an old/young thing. There are lots of teenagers and twentysomethings still tooting the "mom's basement nerds" horn.

ManifunkDestiny
Aug 2, 2005

King


DannoMack posted:

How was the Miggy trade viewed at the time by the posters here?

My favorite thing to come out of it was this little grouping on StopwatchRotoworld

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007


Are there any relatively easy to understand articles/videos that explain the mechanics/physics behind how and why different pitches break the way they do?

stuart scott irl
Mar 9, 2007



I like this one http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teachi...res/node41.html but there is math involved

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009



Philadelphia was horrifically racist in the 60s and up into the 70s but that really has died down a lot. I remember horrible things said publicly about Randall Cunningham even in the late 80s that never really came up with Dononvan McNabb (or Rodney Peete even before him.) The city and its people changed a lot.

Derek Agony
May 19, 2006


On a stadium scoreboard which shows scores from other games around the league, each team name seems to have a 2-digit number to its left and I can't work out what it's meant to represent - anyone?

Dominus Vobiscum
Sep 2, 2004

Our motives are multiple, our desires complex.

Derek Agony posted:

On a stadium scoreboard which shows scores from other games around the league, each team name seems to have a 2-digit number to its left and I can't work out what it's meant to represent - anyone?

Uniform number of the current pitcher

hcreight
Mar 19, 2007

Realistic Sucking Action


Medical Sword posted:

From a business standpoint it has because the desire in management to exploit market inefficiencies and field a good team->make money is stronger than ~old school~ bullshit but there is still an entire ridiculous culture war going on between MLB fans. It's not just an old/young thing. There are lots of teenagers and twentysomethings still tooting the "mom's basement nerds" horn.

Conversely, my dad and I were watching Moneyball last week and I mentioned that there were books available like Baseball Between the Numbers that serve as good introductory guides to sabermetrics and he seemed interested in checking it out. Being older doesn't automatically prevent you from learning and embracing this stuff.

bawfuls
Oct 28, 2009

KEMvP


hcreight posted:

Conversely, my dad and I were watching Moneyball last week and I mentioned that there were books available like Baseball Between the Numbers that serve as good introductory guides to sabermetrics and he seemed interested in checking it out. Being older doesn't automatically prevent you from learning and embracing this stuff.
Likewise, I read that book by borrowing my dad's copy.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



euphronius posted:

Philadelphia was horrifically racist in the 60s and up into the 70s but that really has died down a lot. I remember horrible things said publicly about Randall Cunningham even in the late 80s that never really came up with Dononvan McNabb (or Rodney Peete even before him.) The city and its people changed a lot.

It's really interesting that the core of recent Phillies teams has included two of the better African American players of this generation and how that will affect the view of the Phillies with younger baseball fans. I think the history of racism in Philadelphia is still held onto by some older generations of Americans. I heard an interview with Doug Glanville recently and he said that it was hard for him to get some of his family members to come to games when he played in Philly because they still held onto their perception of the Phillies as the last team to integrate. (Also, the teams Glanville played on weren't very good.)

Scrotos
Sep 8, 2003




tadashi posted:

It's really interesting that the core of recent Phillies teams has included two of the better African American players of this generation and how that will affect the view of the Phillies with younger baseball fans. I think the history of racism in Philadelphia is still held onto by some older generations of Americans. I heard an interview with Doug Glanville recently and he said that it was hard for him to get some of his family members to come to games when he played in Philly because they still held onto their perception of the Phillies as the last team to integrate. (Also, the teams Glanville played on weren't very good.)

Stop posting facts that are just wrong, Boston was the last team to integrate.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


Scrotos posted:

Stop posting facts that are just wrong, Boston was the last team to integrate.

The Phillies were actually the last National League team to integrate.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

Badfinger posted:

The Phillies were actually the last National League team to integrate.

They were but they still integrated before the Tigers and Red Sox (Boston two full years later than Philly) which means the Phillies were not the last team to integrate.

stuart scott irl
Mar 9, 2007



Well he did say "their perception" that Philly was the last team to integrate

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



Yes, I was thinking about the NL. Yes, I know Boston was last. I don't think it helps Philly's image that there were only two other teams to integrate after them. Yes, my post was wrong. Sorry.

Pumpkin McPastry
Mar 8, 2004

What else do I have to do to impress you people?


Instead of bickering about scummy organizations, I think all SAS MLB people should take more time out of their day to think about Larry Doby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Doby

Lungboy
Aug 23, 2002

NEED SQUAT FORM HELP

Are pitchers allowed to switch-pitch? Has anyone ever tried it?

Bob Shabazz
Oct 21, 2008

At 12:17 a.m. MU police spotted Mauk, 19, run a stop sign while driving his scooter east on Kentucky Boulevard - with two female passengers on board.

Lungboy posted:

Are pitchers allowed to switch-pitch? Has anyone ever tried it?

Yankees minor league pitcher Pat Venditte does it, as far as I know he's the only one ever.

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BrooklynBruiser
Aug 20, 2006


Bob Shabazz posted:

Yankees minor league pitcher Pat Venditte does it, as far as I know he's the only one ever.

To the point that they had to come up with a new rule in the minors for how many times a switch pitcher and switch hitter can switch sides in an at-bat.

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