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Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


adaz posted:

Guys i'm really loving terrible at recognizing what a pitch is on the teevee, someone please lord help me. I don't know, your favorite website with videos or something.

1. Know what a pitcher throws. If a guy throws 2-seam, 4-seam, slider, change up, you aren't going to see any pitches that are a curveball.

2. Know how pitches break.


(taken from http://fastballs.wordpress.com/2010...pitchfx-primer/)

A 4-seam fastball appears to be the "straightest" pitch thrown. It breaks very slightly back to the pitcher's throwing arm side. It is likely going to be the fastest pitch thrown by a pitcher.

A 2-seam fastball breaks back to the pitcher's throwing hand side. If a pitcher throws 93-94 on a 4 seam, you might see 91-92 from a 2-seam. Still a hard pitch but you can't get as much juice on it.

Cutters are fun because of the way they're thrown. The spin counteracts the natural movement of the ball and causes it to actually go straight instead of appearing to go straight. It's just as hard as a 2-seamer, but appears to cut slightly to the glove side because it doesn't naturally break back like the 2-seam. An opposite of a 2-seamer that looks just like it until you break your bat.

Splitters are generally around the speed of the 2 or 4 seam fastball, with the same break horizontally as the 4-seamer but more drop.

Changeups are 8-12 mph slower than a pitcher's fastball. Typically the break of the pitch horizontally isn't the defining factor, it's that it drops much more quickly than a fastball.

Sliders are somewhere in between a change up and a 2-seamer. They generally drop and also break to the glove hand side of the pitcher.

Curveballs are the slowest pitch you're likely to see from a pitcher. They have the most drop of any pitch, and will either sweep across to the pitcher's glove side or are the "12 to 6" kind which are much more of a vertical break straight down.


Once you kinda know what pitches do, Step 1 is invaluable. You'll never have to guess Carlos Marmol threw a changeup, because Carlos Marmol does not throw those.

You'll also never have to guess if he threw a strike, because Carlos Marmol doesn't throw those either ZING.

Badfinger fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2012 around 03:38

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leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

Just be like John Sterling and classify every non-slow curve as a slider!

ThatsMyBoye
Nov 21, 2006

I wish that I believed in fate
I wish I didn't sleep so late
I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders


adaz posted:

Guys i'm really loving terrible at recognizing what a pitch is on the teevee, someone please lord help me. I don't know, your favorite website with videos or something.

FEAR NOT. ICT and I literally spent entire seasons identifying pitch types.

+ Also because you'll never remember all the words typed above, shiny graph and all.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


ThatsMyBoye posted:

FEAR NOT. ICT and I literally spent entire seasons identifying pitch types.

+ Also because you'll never remember all the words typed above, shiny graph and all.

Yeah, well.

vv


If you have no chance in hell of remembering my overzealous explanation (you don't), if you know what pitches the pitcher throws and about how fast (relatively) those pitches are to each other you are going to have a good chance of knowing what pitch it was.

Grittybeard
Mar 29, 2010


Badfinger posted:

Yeah, well.

vv


If you have no chance in hell of remembering my overzealous explanation (you don't), if you know what pitches the pitcher throws and about how fast (relatively) those pitches are to each other you are going to have a good chance of knowing what pitch it was.

Bruce Chen apparently throws about 10 different pitches. They all look exactly the same to me other than the curve.

I think he's like doctorate level pitch identification.

ThatsMyBoye
Nov 21, 2006

I wish that I believed in fate
I wish I didn't sleep so late
I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders


Badfinger posted:

Yeah, well.

vv


If you have no chance in hell of remembering my overzealous explanation (you don't), if you know what pitches the pitcher throws and about how fast (relatively) those pitches are to each other you are going to have a good chance of knowing what pitch it was.

If anything we could use more posts like that and less like mine. Just being an rear end, as I'm wont to do.

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


ThatsMyBoye posted:

If anything we could use more posts like that and less like mine. Just being an rear end, as I'm wont to do.

Doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm well aware my MO is to overexplain concepts in a probably boring way. It's why I have the most posts in this thread.

Hopefully at least one or two of them have been useful!

adaz
Mar 7, 2009



thanks Badfinger, bookmarking that and will give it a shot during spring training.

Mahoning
Feb 3, 2007


Is there a good place to find out what type of pitches a pitcher will throw?

ThatsMyBoye
Nov 21, 2006

I wish that I believed in fate
I wish I didn't sleep so late
I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders


Mahoning posted:

Is there a good place to find out what type of pitches a pitcher will throw?

Fangraphs is a good reference, even if it's not perfect. When you go to a pitcher's player page, look for the "Pitch Type" tab above his stat dashboard.

Always confirm with other people and your own eye test, though.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

Mahoning posted:

Is there a good place to find out what type of pitches a pitcher will throw?

Rob Neyer needs to update his Big Book of Pitchers

isnt that right
Dec 8, 2009



Badfinger posted:

Doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm well aware my MO is to overexplain concepts in a probably boring way. It's why I have the most posts in this thread.

Hopefully at least one or two of them have been useful!

Its not boring, but cool + informative. Thanks.

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


Pitch recognition isn't really that hard once you get the hang of it. If you have any issues, looking at the raw pitchfx data (which you can find at brooks baseball) will definitely help but there's a point where it all clicks and you're like holy poo poo and then you'll never watch a pitcher the same way ever again. A fun game to play is trying to watch a catcher and see what the signs are

Gameday classifications are very bad so don't go by that

I CHALLENGE THEE fucked around with this message at Feb 22, 2012 around 06:38

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


poo poo I forgot one.







This pitch is fuuuuucked up.

* Only RA Dickey throws this.

No Safe Word
Feb 26, 2005

I sure do love holding onto the rock!

Badfinger posted:

poo poo I forgot one.







This pitch is fuuuuucked up.

* Only RA Dickey throws this.

* Same break and speed profile for Livan Hernandez's fastball

Groucho Marxist
Dec 9, 2005

Here stands baseball's perfect warrior.

Here stands baseball's perfect knight.


Grittybeard posted:

Bruce Chen apparently throws about 10 different pitches. They all look exactly the same to me other than the curve.

I think he's like doctorate level pitch identification.

FYI this is why we joke about him throwing the leftball. He allegedly throws a billion pitches but they all look like mediocre secondary stuff that a prospect is forcing himself to learn.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates



As a note, these graphs are centered around a theoretical "spinless" pitch (notwithstanding that being spinless is what makes a knuckleball do crazy stuff). So don't be looking for four-seamers to actually start moving upward; that isn't possible. It's just that the backspin on them makes them flatten out some instead of arcing down; similarly, they're breaking toward the pitcher's throwing arm, but that generally just means that they're moving straight when they reach home instead of following the natural break to the other side.

Generally, if you see a pitch visibly break toward the pitcher's throwing arm, it's a 2-seamer, changeup, or screwball (and nobody really throws a screwball).

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006



Is there any specific association with throwing certain pitches in certain locations for better results or is it all just batter/pitcher specific?

It seems to me, vs. RHB, right-handed cutters tend to be pitched more inside, sliders tend to be thrown away so they move out of the zone, and change-ups and over-hand curves tend to be pitched to end up in the bottom of the zone or just below it? It seems like when I look at individual heat maps, it seems like individual pitchers tend to throw their pitches in the same locations?

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


If you're interested in learning pitch recognition here's a list of guys to watch by level of difficulty and what they throw

EASY
CC Sabathia (FB/SL/CH/rare CB -- his curve is a slower version of his slider)
Justin Masterson (FB/SL/CH)
Daniel Hudson (FB/SL/CH)
Michael Pineda (FB/SL/CH)
Matt Moore (FB/CB/CH)

Those guys are all super easy, have large gaps between their velocities and only three distinct pitches. 

INTERMEDIATE
Roy Halladay (FB/CUT/CB/SF)
Justin Verlander (FB/SL/CB/CH)
Clayton Kershaw (FB/SL/CB/CH)
Cliff Lee (FB/CUT/CB/CH/rare SL)
Dan Haren (FB/CUT/CB/SF)

Cutters can be a little tricky sometimes without pitchfx. Verlander occasionally throws a hard CB which can mix in with his slider. 

HARD:
Tim Lincecum (FB/SL/CH/CB)
Mark Buehrle (FB/CUT/CB/SL/CH)
RA Dickey (KN/FB/CH)
Shaun Marcum (FB/CUT/CB/SL/CH)
Freddy Garcia (FB/SL/CB/SF/CH)

PitchFX is useless for Lincecum's change and slider and it's very difficult to tell the difference between the two. Buehrle and Marcum both throw a lot of pitches and a lot of them look similar. Dickey will throw a rare change which will mix in with his knuckleballs velocity wise. Garcia throws both a splitter and change which can look very similar and the only difference is looking at grips.

I would watch a bunch of those guys starts on mlbtv and see how you do

Badfinger
Dec 16, 2004

Timeouts?!

We'll take care of that.


tadashi posted:

Is there any specific association with throwing certain pitches in certain locations for better results or is it all just batter/pitcher specific?

It seems to me, vs. RHB, right-handed cutters tend to be pitched more inside, sliders tend to be thrown away so they move out of the zone, and change-ups and over-hand curves tend to be pitched to end up in the bottom of the zone or just below it? It seems like when I look at individual heat maps, it seems like individual pitchers tend to throw their pitches in the same locations?

Yep there is. Taking your example, the RH vs RH cutter works on the inside of the plate because it looks like it's going to be inside but (to the batter) then appears to tail into the corner of the plate for what the pitcher hopes will be a called strike or something hit weakly.

You don't want to throw the slider so that it's a strike, you want it to look like it's a strike. Again, you want the hitter to make the wrong judgement on the pitch you've thrown, so you "start" the slider in the strike zone, and then it breaks out of it with the result that the batter waves over it. When Brad Lidge isn't too busy sucking at pitching, his slider is stupidly good. Guys will swing at balls that bounce a foot in front of the plate.

Change ups drop relative to fastballs. The pitch should look like a fastball that's in the zone and then drops out of it. The batter should be swinging early and over the top of the pitch/ If you throw a high change up, it looks like a fastball at the top of the zone and then bottoms out to be a meatball in the middle of the zone.

Curveballs are going for a similar result of the changeup with a different execution. The curve should look high or a high strike, and then the bottom drops out so the batter swings high or doesn't swing and it catches the bottom of the zone.


If you wanted to see a good example of a specific pitch there are a bunch of people who could give you a pitcher that throws one that's great in addition to ICT's mix of guys who you can use to see variety.

William T. Hornaday
Nov 26, 2007

Don't tap on the fucking glass!
I swear to god I'll cut off your fucking fingers and feed them to the otters for enrichment.


Badfinger posted:

If you wanted to see a good example of a specific pitch there are a bunch of people who could give you a pitcher that throws one that's great in addition to ICT's mix of guys who you can use to see variety.

Ben Sheets had an absolutely filthy curveball. Bounced on or in front of the plate half the time and nobody could keep from swinging at it. A pity that MLB.TV archives don't go back to when he was really in his prime (i.e., 2004.)

NiceGuy
Dec 13, 2006


Badfinger posted:

* Only RA Dickey throws this.

This makes me sad. One man retires and we lose 50-loving-percent of our knuckleball corps.

leokitty
Apr 5, 2005

Well I had to phone his friend to state my case, and say he's lost control again.

And he showed up all the errors and mistakes, and said I've lost control again.

I CHALLENGE THEE posted:

If you're interested in learning pitch recognition here's a list of guys to watch by level of difficulty and what they throw

But what does Mariano Rivera throw???

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


leokitty posted:

But what does Mariano Rivera throw???

He threw a changeup once

Dr. Kyle Farnsworth
Apr 23, 2004

"He's a great baker. He's Betty Crocker. He makes the best peanut butter cookies ever."

You should watch what Mariano throws because he is a god that walks among us and won't be around forever. He will move on to other universes, other ballparks, other Yankees, other bats to destroy.

crondaily
Nov 27, 2006


Braun.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates


bo_chrud posted:

bats.

LordPants
Mar 5, 2011

Four more years boys, four more years.


On the MLB schedule for Spring Training some games say:

Braves v. Red Sox (ss)

What does the SS mean?

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


Split squad.

BIZORT
Jan 24, 2003



Meaning only ~half of the team roster is playing in that game

LordPants
Mar 5, 2011

Four more years boys, four more years.


Gotcha. Thought it would be something like that but I couldn't work out what it meant specifically.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009



Usually the rookies and NRI travel and the veterans play the home game.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


euphronius posted:

Usually the rookies and NRI travel and the veterans play the home game.

There's an unwritten rule that they're supposed to send three regulars even on split squad away games, but teams have stretched that definition big time in the past few years, especially with the Florida teams spreading out even more.

Monicro
Oct 21, 2010

SAVE IT NERDS


As a general rule of thumb, what would an "average" score for OBP, SLG and OPS be? It just occurred to me the other day that Batting Average is the only batting stat I look at because I don't actually know what would constitute good, bad etc with the others

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


Monicro posted:

As a general rule of thumb, what would an "average" score for OBP, SLG and OPS be? It just occurred to me the other day that Batting Average is the only batting stat I look at because I don't actually know what would constitute good, bad etc with the others

MLB average in 2012: .320 OBP .399 SLG .719 OPS

MLB average in 2000: .345 OBP .437 SLG .782 OPS


So there will be differences depending on the time period. You also have a lot of difference between positions. A 'normal' OPS for a 1B/3B will generally be higher than the 'normal' OPS for a catcher/shortstop.

angrygodofjebus fucked around with this message at Feb 24, 2012 around 03:44

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



You can find a lot of info on BBR as always. The average triple slash line for 2011 in the AL was .255/.321/.399. Obviously there are differing values to a triple slash depending on position.

I would consider as follows:
300 OBP or below: Not Good Rod Barajas Style
300-320 OBP: Hacker
320-340 OBP: Average
340-360 OBP: Good plate discipline (assuming averageish BA)
360-400 OBP: It is tough to post a 360+ OBP and be a bad baseball player
400 OBP +: Elite/Outstanding eye

For SLG, 400 average, 450 has doubles power, 500 guy who can rake, 550 ish Mashin Taters

we're in a down offensive era right now

EDIT: YOU SON OF A BITCH

angrygodofjebus
Aug 25, 2005

Drink it up and hunker down


No yours was much better

I CHALLENGE THEE
Aug 25, 2005

kirk gibson is a piece of shit


By position in 2011

C:  .244/.312/.388
1B: .271/.345/.451
2B: .260/.319/.388
SS: .262/.316/.378
3B: .252/.316/.390
LF:  .255/.319/.407
CF: .261/.325/.409
RF: .269/.341/.441
DH: .265/.340/.429

DrGonzo90
Sep 13, 2010


I CHALLENGE THEE posted:

By position in 2011

C:  .244/.312/.388
1B: .271/.345/.451
2B: .260/.319/.388
SS: .262/.316/.378
3B: .252/.316/.390
LF:  .255/.319/.407
CF: .261/.325/.409
RF: .269/.341/.441
DH: .265/.340/.429

Odd to see CF hitting better than LF.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



I will now post some seasons of varying dopeness:

.362/.609/.812 this is like the best triple slash line of all time. elite BA, beyond ridiculous OBP and SLG (Bonds age 39)

.302/.447/.608 this season was awesome especially for the offensive era. 600 SLG was enough to lead the league. Any OBP over 400 is outstanding. (Bautista this year)

267/.334/.445 A decent season in 2011. Slightly above average on base, slightly above average power - but this was a catcher's season so I would consider it to be quite good (Wilson Ramos this year)

.299/.358/.423 Another decent season. Pretty good OBP for 2011, approximately league average power - but this is a shortstop season so it is also a good showing. (Marco Scutaro this year; CHERINGTON WHY)

.230/.287/.430 Atrocious on base percentage but averageish slugging and a terrible BA - this is a guy who never met a pitch he didn't want to swing at (and miss) but occasionally when he manages to hit ball it go far. A catcher, but this is still tragic. (Rod Barajas 2011)

.283/.359/.411 This is a 2006 season, so the OBP is a bit above average, but the SLG is below average. A decent line from a SS with a glove, but this is Douglas Malphabet who was a first baseman. Not a good line.

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