|
To be fair, though, IO Interactive doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to not being offensive. Blood Money is great, but the two models for women as "dumpy housewife" and "ridiculously proportioned bimbo" are hilariously misogynistic.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:03 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2013 10:13 |
|
|
doctor iono posted:To be fair, though, IO Interactive doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to not being offensive. Have there even been any women portrayed positively in Hitman? I am trying to think of some and all I can think of are prostitutes, gold diggers, and adulterers, also assassins.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:07 |
|
|
blackguy32 posted:Have there even been any women portrayed positively in Hitman? I am trying to think of some and all I can think of are prostitutes, gold diggers, and adulterers, also assassins. I guess Diana sort of acts as a sympathetic and positive(ish) character. The Blood Money ending even makes her less passive.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:09 |
|
|
blackguy32 posted:Have there even been any women portrayed positively in Hitman? I am trying to think of some and all I can think of are prostitutes, gold diggers, and adulterers, also assassins. The only ones besides Diana which are portrayed "positively" are the ones without speaking roles. On the other hand, in Hitman you basically have targets and bystanders. Bystanders range from "regular people" to "sleazy stereotypes" for both genders. Those that have a more active role, the targets and rival assassins, are usually human scum regardless of gender. If it makes anything better, some women bystanders have guns and will fight back against you. This even includes the middle-aged women tourists.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:22 |
|
|
It would be fairly nice if someone would help me out with getting the patch thing to work before we start on this big derail...
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:44 |
|
|
Tewratomeh posted:If it makes anything better, some women bystanders have guns and will fight back against you. This even includes the middle-aged women tourists.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:46 |
|
|
Yeah if you go on a shooting spree it kind of drives home what a psychopath you are when innocent bystanders start grabbing guns to try and fight back.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 00:59 |
|
|
blackguy32 posted:Have there even been any women portrayed positively in Hitman? I am trying to think of some and all I can think of are prostitutes, gold diggers, and adulterers, also assassins. The prostitute 47 saves in Hitman 1 is portrayed positively in Hitman 1, and Hitman Contracts, but terribly in Hitman 2. That always kind of bugged me.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 01:03 |
|
|
Pornographic Memory posted:Yeah if you go on a shooting spree it kind of drives home what a psychopath you are when innocent bystanders start grabbing guns to try and fight back. That's pretty smart, because they know that if they don't kill me first they're definitely going to die. None of them have ever killed me first.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 01:05 |
|
|
Slantedfloors posted:No bystanders start with guns, but they all have a chance of picking up a loose gun and using it. In the Casino level a dumb old lady stole my mp5! Luckely i had an M4 stashed away nearby so the lady, and the rest of casino had to die ! :P
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 07:49 |
|
|
doctor iono posted:To be fair, though, IO Interactive doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to not being offensive.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 12:23 |
|
|
gently caress it. I'm a week away from a really important exam and all of this Blood Money talk made me reinstall the game. I can't wait to see what they're going to do with Absolution.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 13:10 |
|
|
They're coming out with a live action short set in LA, featuring guns and SUVs and choppers and the like. Don't ask how I know these things. my roommate turned down storyboarding it like a fool to work on yet another 80's children's cartoon reboot
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 15:24 |
|
|
Jefferoo posted:my roommate turned down storyboarding it like a fool to work on yet another 80's children's cartoon reboot Probably the smarter choice in the long run, but drat...
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 15:47 |
|
|
kissekatt posted:While I agree that the female models are ridiculous, the situation is similar (though not quite as extreme) with the male models. Either you are a dumpy middle-age man or you are broad-shouldered and fit as hell. Yeah, most men in the game look as though they're freshly pumped from weight training in the gym. doctor iono posted:To be fair, though, IO Interactive doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to not being offensive. I'm not accusing you or anyone else here of being on a soapbox, but since the Hitman series is essentially a murder simulator, I can't imagine that the developers gave much thought to any potential politically-correct objections.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 16:35 |
|
|
Swartz posted:If you have a nvidia card, I would also recommend downloading NvidiaInspector to enable SSAO and if you have a really good rig, even Super Grid Sampling AA. This works in nHancer, fyi
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 16:39 |
|
|
LLCoolJD posted:Yeah, most men in the game look as though they're freshly pumped from weight training in the gym. I don't see how one thing follows from the other. The GTA and Assasin's Creed games could also be described as murder simulators and have a much more positive portrayal of women. It's just a shame to see an otherwise excellent game do so badly at this.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 17:09 |
|
|
Not that it's much of an excuse, I guess, but I think a lot of the fetish imagery and sexist caricatures are a byproduct of the Hitman series coming from a European development team. There's a very European style to everything, which for me is part of the appeal. It's also pretty amusing that the "dumpy middle-aged" models are primarily American tourists or American citizens. The Europeans are all swarthy bodybuilders and sexy models with big boobs. edit: and then there's the level set in what's basically the Playboy mansion. What exactly would you expect there to be in a softcore porn tycoon's private house in the Rocky Mountains? Tastefully-dressed women with natural, realistic bodies? Tewratomeh fucked around with this message at May 19, 2011 around 17:33 |
| # ? May 19, 2011 17:31 |
|
|
marktheando posted:I don't see how one thing follows from the other. The GTA and Assasin's Creed games could also be described as murder simulators and have a much more positive portrayal of women. Blood Money used dark humor to keep the game from being too serious, though. Stereotypes for law enforcement officers, American southerners, Africans, etc. permeated the game. No one was above ridicule. With the movie tie-in, they may "clean up" the next game, but I don't care. It's a game about an assassin with a conspicuous barcode on the back of his head who can change clothes in two seconds. Assassin's Creed featured a 20-something bimbo as a scientist. She was certainly an absurd character in an absurd story. I suppose it's positive, in the same way that a 20-something Denise Richards being a master physicist in that bad James Bond movie was positive. The main female character GTA III gets shot by your character at the end of the final credits because she won't shut up. A main female character in GTA: Vice City is a nymphomaniac. Catalina (can't remember her exact name) in San Andreas was a sexual deviant and unrestrained killer.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 17:33 |
|
|
Tewratomeh posted:Not that it's much of an excuse, I guess, but I think a lot of the fetish imagery and sexist caricatures are a byproduct of the Hitman series coming from a European development team. There's a very European style to everything, which for me is part of the appeal. No, I understand that stuff perfectly. I'm talking about public areas for regular people. For example, the jogger in A New Life is a pretty average looking male. It's no wonder it wasn't a woman, because IO Interactive doesn't have a female model capable of jogging.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 17:53 |
|
|
Tewratomeh posted:Not that it's much of an excuse, I guess, but I think a lot of the fetish imagery and sexist caricatures are a byproduct of the Hitman series coming from a European development team. There's a very European style to everything, which for me is part of the appeal. Denmark isn't known for a backwards attitude towards women though, quite the opposite in fact. Tewratomeh posted:It's also pretty amusing that the "dumpy middle-aged" models are primarily American tourists or American citizens. The Europeans are all swarthy bodybuilders and sexy models with big boobs. They certainly were appropriate for that level. It's just that the women were like that in every other level as well. LLCoolJD posted:Blood Money used dark humor to keep the game from being too serious, though. Stereotypes for law enforcement officers, American southerners, Africans, etc. permeated the game. No one was above ridicule. With the movie tie-in, they may "clean up" the next game, but I don't care. It's a game about an assassin with a conspicuous barcode on the back of his head who can change clothes in two seconds. I'm not saying those other games were perfect, I was just saying they handled female characters better than Blood Money did (with the sole exception of Diana). It's true that very few games do this sort of thing well, but this doesn't excuse IO. I mean remember this is the game that had this as an advertising campaign- 
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 17:54 |
|
|
marktheando posted:
Bad puns are a no-no? I don't really get what is wrong with it.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:14 |
|
|
Monni posted:Bad puns are a no-no? Seriously?
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:20 |
|
|
Monni posted:I don't really get what is wrong with it. Well it's a picture of a dead woman wearing revealing clothes. So I guess it's not any worse than a lot of modern fashion print ads which literally do the exact same thing, but that doesn't quite excuse it. I guess you could argue that they were parodying fashion ads or something, I don't know. I can't say if they were or weren't.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:22 |
|
|
Tewratomeh posted:Well it's a picture of a dead woman wearing revealing clothes. So I guess it's not any worse than a lot of modern fashion print ads which literally do the exact same thing, but that doesn't quite excuse it. If I am not mistaken, they got a lot of poo poo for that ad. I remember it making the news.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:23 |
|
|
Yeah there's nothing wrong with that ad in of itself. The thing that's wrong people have already brought up. All the women have either the same dumpy look or they're dead skinny with tits like basketballs. It's just tasteless. Of course you can expect the women in a video game to be not quite a statistical average distribution of body types and sizes. But Blood Money shoved it in people's faces in a way that it probably shouldn't have.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:31 |
|
|
Well if you aren't sure what's wrong with that advert, notice how the male characters in the other ads were actually characters from the game and aren't in their underwear and aren't posed in a sexual way. 
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:32 |
|
|
it's asinine to single hitman out for that.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:37 |
|
|
She isn't supposed to be that trap assassin from the Hefner assassination?
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:39 |
|
|
Kyphie posted:She isn't supposed to be that trap assassin from the Hefner assassination? I don't think so, pretty sure she was a brunette who wore clothes. fleshweasel posted:it's asinine to single hitman out for that. Nobody is saying it is Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball but I don't think it's unfair to criticise IO for doing stupid things when they do stupid things.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 18:45 |
|
|
I used that Beautifully Executed ad as an English assignment back in the day  But yeah, there was a minor shitstorm over it.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:09 |
|
|
marktheando posted:Well if you aren't sure what's wrong with that advert, notice how the male characters in the other ads were actually characters from the game and aren't in their underwear and aren't posed in a sexual way. I never understood the problem with the female version of the ad. It's more sexually suggestive... but so is pretty much every use of women in media. Hitman is a god drat murder simulator. Hitman is literally the video game that parents and politicians always feared. The problem we're going to have with it is "SEXISM?" I just shot up the entire Mardi Gras parade. I just pushed Hugh Hefner--in all but name--off the side of a mountain. I skulked in the shadows for 10 minutes, watching my prey, only to shank her with a kitchen knife the moment she was distracted. Hell, the game opens with you murdering a man who's life is totally ruined by an honest mistake at his theme park. I beat him to death with a hammer as he wept. That was the tutorial. But I guess some of the women do have pretty big tits. People are loving stupid.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:27 |
|
|
Seriously, 'everyone else does it' isn't an excuse. I don't see why having a game focused around killing people makes it necessary or acceptable to objectify women.
Frankosity fucked around with this message at May 19, 2011 around 19:49 |
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:41 |
|
|
Frankosity posted:Seriously, 'everyone else does it' isn't an excuse. I don't see why having a game focused around killing people makes it necessary or excusable to objectify women. Also at least some of the stuff pointed out isn't sexism but merely cutting corners, like the lack of body type variety. There are just enough character models and differentiation for non-essential NPCs for you to not notice the clones if you don't look that hard. Also I think that ad is supposed to be the wife from A New Life.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:50 |
|
|
Frankosity posted:Seriously, 'everyone else does it' isn't an excuse. I don't see why having a game focused around killing people makes it necessary or acceptable to objectify women. Garrotes ain't poo poo but hose and fists
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:53 |
|
|
It's not pointless to talk about sexism in Hitman in the Hitman thread. We were talking before about other things we want to see improved in the next game, what makes this any different? I'd like it if Hitman Absolution was less sexist than Blood Money because I really enjoyed Blood Money and want the sequel to be an improvement.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:55 |
|
|
Frankosity posted:Seriously, 'everyone else does it' isn't an excuse. I don't see why having a game focused around killing people makes it necessary or excusable to objectify women. My point is NOT "everyone does it, so who cares!" My point is "If you want to have a problem with objectification of women, maybe you can use Hitman as a supporting bullet point... maybe towards the wrap up section of your overall case. It certainly should not be anywhere near your main offenders list." Sexism is only an issue in Hitman if you're really looking for it. These super hot women walking around? They are mob trophy wives, hot chick dancers and waitresses at high class establishments. Where regular people walk around, they added dumpy-looking men and women. In IO's defense, having a rainbow of different character models in an old Xbox and PS2 game would have been asking a BIT much, right? This is not a game about sex crimes. It's not even about killing. It is a game about cold blooded, premeditated murder. Murder that is kinda-sorta (NOT REALLY) played for laughs. By all rights, the Hitman series is the most irresponsible, offensive product ever released. To blow past all the violence of it and get pissy about giving teen girls a poor body image is madness.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 19:59 |
|
|
Jetsetlemming posted:It's neither necessary nor excusable. It's just pointless to single out Hitman. I'm talking about misogyny in Hitman because this is the Hitman thread  I never claimed IO was the only perpetrator - sexism and misogyny is a massive problem in the industry that is only starting to get tackled by major game developers. IO, like other developers, should step up.Yes, it's cutting corners in development, but that's not the problem. When female models get re-used in, say, Assassin's Creed, they re-use a generic, average looking female model. Not only is this not sexist, but it's also a hell of a lot less noticeable. Do you guys really think it's not ridiculous that the only two female models in the game, regardless of the setting are dumpy housewives and ridiculous bimbos? They have average men, but no average women. Yes, they have dumpy men and women, but there's just regular men, too.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 20:03 |
|
|
Zero Karizma posted:My point is NOT "everyone does it, so who cares!" My point is "If you want to have a problem with objectification of women, maybe you can use Hitman as a supporting bullet point... maybe towards the wrap up section of your overall case. It certainly should not be anywhere near your main offenders list." Nobody said it was the worst offender. The reason people are talking about sexism in Hitman is because this is the Hitman thread. For talking about Hitman.
|
| # ? May 19, 2011 20:05 |
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2013 10:13 |
|
|
doctor iono posted:Yes, it's cutting corners in development, but that's not the problem. When female models get re-used in, say, Assassin's Creed, they re-use a generic, average looking female model. Not only is this not sexist, but it's also a hell of a lot less noticeable. Do you guys really think it's not ridiculous that the only two female models in the game, regardless of the setting are dumpy housewives and ridiculous bimbos? These are games from last console generation, merely ported to 360. I also hope that the new one has a lot more character models, but I don't fault the older tech. Edit: marktheando posted:Nobody said it was the worst offender. The reason people are talking about sexism in Hitman is because this is the Hitman thread. For talking about Hitman. People in the real world were up-in-arms over that ad and the game's perceived sexism when it was released. Real-life people DEFINITELY were very offended by Blood Money, in particular, for sexism. Zero Karizma fucked around with this message at May 19, 2011 around 20:07 |
| # ? May 19, 2011 20:05 |
|
