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I'm one of those people who likes everything about about Kingdom Come except for the ending, leans too hard into the bitter side of bittersweet, think the message would have worked better if Captain Marvel prematurely detonating the bomb had only killed him, not 99% of everyone present, made it feel really pointless, also considering maybe a dozen members of the hero population survived and most of them aren't exactly powerhouses, that earth is probably screwed in it's next Crisis tier event(can you imagine how awful a version of Blackest Night would be in that reality?)
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Aug 22, 2016 12:55
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I think Mark Waid agreed with you considering his spin off sequel basically has everyone whose skeleton you don't see post bomb still alive. Including two of his main characters.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:10
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Choco1980 posted:I think Mark Waid agreed with you considering his spin off sequel basically has everyone whose skeleton you don't see post bomb still alive. Including two of his main characters. As a teen after reading that I came up with multiple scenarios for a sequel that would undo most of those deaths, best one that I came up with involved time travel; basically all the corpses we see after the bomb drops are fakes planted by the villain, who has kidnapped all of those supposedly killed by the bomb to brainwash them into an army to conquer the world with, back then I never settled on who the villain would be, but these days I'd go full 90's and have it be a team teamup of Extant, Monarch(Captain Atom version), and Triumph, just these three angry men who have been screwed by the world multiple times over and getting together to try and make things go their way for once Would also have the Kingdom Come version of the Legion and a reborn Green Lantern Corps be heavily involved in the plot as well
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Aug 23, 2016 02:49
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Achernar posted:I like how he's got Jay's helmet. AND NOTHING ELSE
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Aug 23, 2016 02:54
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Infinitum posted:So anyway. This got posted on Imgur earlier, and imma crosspost it here because it's real good Holy gently caress, I think I need to lay down a bit
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Aug 23, 2016 02:58
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drrockso20 posted:I'm one of those people who likes everything about about Kingdom Come except for the ending, leans too hard into the bitter side of bittersweet, think the message would have worked better if Captain Marvel prematurely detonating the bomb had only killed him, not 99% of everyone present, made it feel really pointless, also considering maybe a dozen members of the hero population survived and most of them aren't exactly powerhouses, that earth is probably screwed in it's next Crisis tier event(can you imagine how awful a version of Blackest Night would be in that reality?) KC Superman is one of the most powerful Supermen though. IIRC, they had him show up in the JLA and his younger counterpart broke his hand cracking KC Superman across the jaw.
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Aug 23, 2016 02:59
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Zeroisanumber posted:KC Superman is one of the most powerful Supermen though. IIRC, they had him show up in the JLA and his younger counterpart broke his hand cracking KC Superman across the jaw. Yeah but as Kingdom Come showed, he's only one person, there are limits even to his power
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Aug 23, 2016 05:29
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Choco1980 posted:I'm kinda reminded of the Kingdom Come version of the Flash, which the novel explains better, that as an amalgam thing (created by the speed force, combining all the Flashes into one person) where he's so guilt stricken about people he hasn't saved that now he constantly patrols all of Central City constantly at top speed, and he cannot stop. Like, the slowest he would get would be to let a little girl register his friendly face when he rescues her cat from a tree. ... when did that issue come out, relative to the first issue of Astro City? "I slow down for a moment to let the little girl see me, so that she knows it's all right... and it almost costs a man in Boston his life."
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Aug 23, 2016 12:45
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Zeroisanumber posted:KC Superman is one of the most powerful Supermen though. IIRC, they had him show up in the JLA and his younger counterpart broke his hand cracking KC Superman across the jaw. Lex Luthor said something about KC Superman having absorbed so much solar radiation that he's become immune to Kryptonite, which leaves only magical artifacts/magical entities as things he's vulnerable to on top of KC Superman being so much ridiculously higher powered than the Superman we're used to reading about in regular continuity comics.
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Aug 23, 2016 15:32
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Parahexavoctal posted:... when did that issue come out, relative to the first issue of Astro City? That was another comic. I feel like it was an Alan Moore (or a writer like him) that put a Superman-level character in a world full of ungrateful jerks. He eventually snaps, as they always do.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:12
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Parahexavoctal posted:... when did that issue come out, relative to the first issue of Astro City? I might be confusing things, but I swear the kc novelization had a similar moment. So they would be right around the same time then...
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Aug 23, 2016 17:21
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Zeroisanumber posted:That was another comic. I feel like it was an Alan Moore (or a writer like him) that put a Superman-level character in a world full of ungrateful jerks. He eventually snaps, as they always do. Irredeemable?
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Aug 23, 2016 17:41
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Parahexavoctal posted:... when did that issue come out, relative to the first issue of Astro City? Astro City #1 was in August '95; Kingdom Come was in May '96. Too close to really say one was influenced by the other, IMHO; the notion of "how does Superman prioritize" and the like isn't exactly a new one. Zeroisanumber posted:That was another comic. I feel like it was an Alan Moore (or a writer like him) that put a Superman-level character in a world full of ungrateful jerks. He eventually snaps, as they always do. Nah, that was Astro City vol. 1 #1.
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Aug 23, 2016 17:49
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:Irredeemable? There's like two or three arcs in the run that are good: the initial 5-7 issues where the scope of Plutonian's rampage is revealed, the coverup story about the sonic plague that starts the guy's break, and the background issues that show what walking cocklords the entirety of that world were. Irredeemable is a good look into what a superman-level character, without superhuman empathy/patience/understanding/optimism, would be faced with in a realistic world. Astro City is a good look into what a superman-level character would face when confronted with the existential opportunity cost of his abilities (i.e. that even a moment of relaxation would necessitate his absence from an emergency situation), even in a world rich with superhumans. Samaritan's depiction is both impressively hopeful and maddeningly depressing. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Aug 23, 2016 |
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Aug 23, 2016 17:54
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FilthyImp posted:That's the one. The people of that world really were like walking Reddit posts. "Oh GOD you dented my Yacht saving the world from that alien DoomEngine. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THIS?!" Later on in Astro City's timeline(since whenever the comic isn't doing a period piece it's supposed to be set in the present day, so it's been about 20 years in universe since issue 1), Samaritan seems to have figured out how to accommodate time for himself, so we've dodged that potential bullet Also we could honestly fill this thread up with just moments from Astro City, that's how good it is for this sort of thing
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Aug 23, 2016 22:45
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Zeroisanumber posted:That was another comic. I feel like it was an Alan Moore (or a writer like him) that put a Superman-level character in a world full of ungrateful jerks. He eventually snaps, as they always do. Dark Horse did a similar thing with their shared universe in the 90s. There was a hero called Titan who was basically Superman but raised by an abusive father and worked for the government but he eventually snaps because everyone constantly tries to manipulate him. Like how he is called in to protect a prominent businessman but it turns out the guy was only in danger because he was a drug dealer or how he's brought in to stop a metahuman gang in another city but is called off once the war leaves the rich part of town and goes back to the slums.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:55
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I'm reminded of Overman from Morrison's Animal Man run, and Psycho Pirate just constantly commenting on how stupid of a concept he is
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Aug 24, 2016 01:59
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drrockso20 posted:Psycho Pirate just constantly commenting on how stupid of a concept he is  "Why!? Why was I written to feel shame!?"
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Aug 24, 2016 02:13
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Captain Bravo posted:
Psycho Pirate isn't talking about himself, he's talking about Overman and his entire Earth
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Aug 24, 2016 02:28
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muscles like this? posted:Dark Horse did a similar thing with their shared universe in the 90s. There was a hero called Titan who was basically Superman but raised by an abusive father and worked for the government but he eventually snaps because everyone constantly tries to manipulate him. Like how he is called in to protect a prominent businessman but it turns out the guy was only in danger because he was a drug dealer or how he's brought in to stop a metahuman gang in another city but is called off once the war leaves the rich part of town and goes back to the slums. Straczynski did almost the same thing with Hyperion in Supreme Power. The ship crashes on Earth, Kansas farm couple find the baby and decide to raise it ... then government agents show up, take the kid to a secret military facility and try brainwashing him into becoming the idealised American. The effectiveness of this plan is best summed up by saying that eventually he tells them to gently caress off and stop interfering with his life through the practical means of using his body as a kinetic harpoon and saying "Next time it'll be a city".
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Aug 24, 2016 08:14
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Jedit posted:Straczynski did almost the same thing with Hyperion in Supreme Power. The ship crashes on Earth, Kansas farm couple find the baby and decide to raise it ... then government agents show up, take the kid to a secret military facility and try brainwashing him into becoming the idealised American. The effectiveness of this plan is best summed up by saying that eventually he tells them to gently caress off and stop interfering with his life through the practical means of using his body as a kinetic harpoon and saying "Next time it'll be a city". The relationship between Hyperion and his fake government employee parents is one of my favorite things in that book. It's just depressing and horrifying in every conceivable way.
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Aug 24, 2016 08:55
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In the 80s, Cap does his thing, going around the country, trying to pep up America - but he's dogged by a guy called the Super Patriot. The guy is a huge right-wing nut that basically encourages lynch mobs through nationalist rallies. They eventually have a fight, as you'd expect. The problem is, they fight to a draw over an hour, and Patriot doesn't even seem tired. Cap can't believe he couldn't put the guy away, and is clouded in self-doubt.  Meanwhile, a new government committee decides that they should decide how Captain America should act, and give him missions. Cap refuses to be under the control of a secret committee, and quits.  The government decides to actually recruit Super Patriot, John Walker, to take over as Captain America.  He's an over-aggressive nut that has zero problem killing people. This creates a lot of enemies - including his old right-wing nut buddies who feel betrayed.  His parents are killed by The Watchdogs, who got his identity information from his rejected sidekicks. Walker kills a bunch of Watchdogs in response, and just rambles to his parents' bodies.  I'd post more, but things somehow get worse for Walker down the road... It was interesting to see an 80s book, and Cap no less, deal with an imperfect hero who thought he was right, but went about things the completely wrong way.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:00
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"They're almost as funny as your commitment to the IDEALS OF AMERICA!" Never change, Cap.
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Aug 24, 2016 18:10
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It's funny, because right wing loons hate the government. I guess that's why his old buddies felt betrayed. It almost makes me feel bad for the government, the right wing occupying your buildings, the left wing calling you baby killers that needs to be dismantled, jeez, rough job.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:20
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WickedHate posted:It almost makes me feel bad for the government, the right wing occupying your buildings, the left wing calling you baby killers that needs to be dismantled, jeez, rough job.  Also, we could probably fill the thread with a bunch of Superknockoffs like Hyperion, Sentry, Plutonian, Supreme, etc.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:38
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WickedHate posted:It's funny, because right wing loons hate the government. I guess that's why his old buddies felt betrayed. It almost makes me feel bad for the government, the right wing occupying your buildings, the left wing calling you baby killers that needs to be dismantled, jeez, rough job. The disgruntled ex-sidekicks went by, appropriately enough, Right-Winger and Left-Winger. One of Super-Patriot's sidekicks (the Bold Urban Commandos, or 'BUCkies,' just to piss off Cap some more) got to go with him when he became Captain America, though; Lemar Hoskins became the government's new Bucky, partner to Cap... right up until Marvel got some letters explaining that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to have a black man called Bucky - or for that matter anything that's easily shortened to "Buck," which is kind of a loaded term when it comes to African-Americans, especially down south. Mark Gruenwald had never heard the term, and reportedly felt really lovely about that; they renamed the character Battlestar.
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Aug 25, 2016 00:47
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There's an issue of the period where Walker is Cap where he fights a group of mutants. I cannot remember the group's name for the life of me, but their uniforms were yellow and they all had power, obviously. And the narrative through the whole fight, is that the telepath of the team can't help as she watches her team get massacred, because, and no poo poo, this is true, Walker is an unthinking fighting machine. He mows through them like a loving chainsaw. It turned me off of Captain America for a while, even as a kid. It took Mark Waid to bring me back.That was when I realized the point of Cap: not to be a walking weapon, but to be a human ideal for Americans to aspire to.
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Aug 25, 2016 01:43
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El Gallinero Gros posted:There's an issue of the period where Walker is Cap where he fights a group of mutants. I cannot remember the group's name for the life of me, but their uniforms were yellow and they all had power, obviously. The Resistants, who formed in opposition to the Mutant Registration Act - an act which Steve Rogers as Cap had actually publicly spoken against, which is part of the reason the Commission on Superhuman Activities was pissed at him and willing to replace him with John Walker. They were originally called Mutant Force, which is a terrible loving name. That telepath was going by Think-Tank at the time, but is probably better known as minor super-baddie Mentallo. (my favorite thing about John Walker is that when the government made him USAgent they originally declared John Walker to be dead - they faked his assassination by a Watchdog, the guys who lynched his parents - to set him up with a new identity, which is how Johnnie Walker got his name changed to Jack Daniels) EDIT: (Oh and P.S. they also hypnotized him into believing his parents were still alive) DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Aug 25, 2016 |
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Aug 25, 2016 03:59
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:The Resistants, who formed in opposition to the Mutant Registration Act - an act which Steve Rogers as Cap had actually publicly spoken against, which is part of the reason the Commission on Superhuman Activities was pissed at him and willing to replace him with John Walker. They were originally called Mutant Force, which is a terrible loving name. That telepath was going by Think-Tank at the time, but is probably better known as minor super-baddie Mentallo. Yes! The Resistants, that's right. And in hindsight, the hypnosis thing was extra lovely, although 8 year old me probably didn't think of the ramifications.
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Aug 25, 2016 04:18
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Johnnie Walker got his name changed to Jack Daniels 
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Aug 25, 2016 04:39
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Oh my god you werent kidding. Also "...later abandoned his identity due to Red Skull's manipulation of the Commission on Superhuman Activities.[6] Walker took the role as Captain America, moderating his views. The man who would later become Battlestar served as his Bucky. The other two BUCs became Left-Winger and Right-Winger.[7][8]"
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Aug 25, 2016 04:40
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SynthOrange posted:Oh my god you werent kidding. Also It's like Golden Age Superman. Some poo poo you don't need to make up, because the poo poo that actually happened is stranger. (I actually really dug that entire era of Cap, Gruenwald had some really interesting stories to tell, but damned if every name he ever came up with wasn't entirely on the nose)
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Aug 25, 2016 06:09
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Red posted:It was interesting to see an 80s book, and Cap no less, deal with an imperfect hero who thought he was right, but went about things the completely wrong way. Not to poo poo on Gruenwald, but his stuff was actually a step down in moral complexity from the previous Captain America run.
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Aug 25, 2016 09:23
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Greunwald's Cap run had so many great moments. From the fun stuff (Streets of Poison, the Bloodstone Hunt, Batroc) to really good complex stuff (Magneto putting Red Skull in a bunker.) But everything he did with John Walker was excellent. Probably the most heart stopping stuff was how the Left Winger/Right Winger stuff ended. Basically they betray John and as a result John's mum and dad are killed. And John goes after them. Now it's important to note that they used to be John's friends but were fuckups. Like coasting by on John's success and dumb asses, but not evil. Still as friends their betrayal stings. So John goes after them and tears apart this base to get to them. And he kicks their asses. And leaves them unconscious in an exploding base as his way of showing that he's cool but not a killer because he leaves them alive. And besides they have super strength, they can survive a little explosion. And then a few months later John is brought to see the aftermath. And it's pretty much an entire comic of a doctor explaining to John how yes they were tough enough to technically survive the fire but were not tough enough to not be left with massive third degree burns. It's page after page of the doctor describing all the horrible injuries that they suffered, the pain that they were in and how they both commit suicide just to end the pain. It's both  and a big indictment of the 80's action hero school of "violence is cool."
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Aug 25, 2016 21:10
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Did Gruen ever introduce a Vietnam vet named War Crimes. And was his weapon a flame thrower. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 26, 2016 |
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Aug 26, 2016 00:41
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Sharon Ventura was interested in becoming a pro wrestler after seeing Ben "The Thing" Grimm compete. She heard about The Power Broker's ability to grant super strength. She took him up on it, only to find out it was a scam: The Power Broker experimented on their applicants (with a 50% success rate - the failures got dumped into the sewers, becoming raving freaks), and falsely claimed that the subjects were now dependent on drugs only he could provide. So not only was Ventura duped into becoming reliant on the Broker for drugs she didn't need - she was raped. Captain America shuts down the Power Broker, rescuing lots of people, including Ventura. He even gives her a lift to New York, where she can find Ben Grimm, one of the few people she trusts.  She can't stand the thought of being touched by Cap. She wanders the streets, happening upon Ben's new Fantastic Four (so far), consisting of Ben, Torch, and Crystal. Reed and Sue, who were just leaving, happen to get caught in the fight, too. And they're getting destroyed by Diablo and his elementals, each specifically chosen to counter the FF.  Sharon happens upon the scene, and beats Diablo so badly that Ben has to hold her back.  Ben, knowing what she's gone through, recruits her to join the FF so he can help her.  And we'll stop there, because her life never actually got any better - it got much, much worse. But there were moments where she and Ben were happy together. Red fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Aug 30, 2016 |
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Aug 30, 2016 15:40
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Goddamn I had forgotten how badly life poo poo all over Sharon Ventura. Seriously it's like the superhero book of Job.
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Aug 30, 2016 15:47
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mind the walrus posted:Goddamn I had forgotten how badly life poo poo all over Sharon Ventura. Seriously it's like the superhero book of Job. Yep. 
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Aug 30, 2016 15:58
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Red posted:Yep.  What the hell, comic books?
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Aug 30, 2016 17:23
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Dick Trauma posted:
But it gets worse than that:  And then it gets worse than that.
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Aug 30, 2016 17:48
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