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Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



One of the newest trends in the camera world is the compact mirrorless interchangeable lens camera!

What the hell is a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera?

Dpreview posted:

The DPreview Poll results.
What should we call mirrorless cameras?

Interchangeable Lens Compact 19.9%
Compact System Camera 19.4%
Digital Single Lens Micro 4.1%
Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera 41.8%
Micro System Camera 9.0%
Single Lens Electronic 5.9%



Nobody knows what the hell to call them, but they're interesting pieces of gear.



Light enters through the lens, and with a traditional DSLR a reflex mirror kicks light straight up into the pentaprism (or pentamirror on cheaper models) and then back out the viewfinder, giving the shooter a live preview directly through-the-lens.

By eliminating the extra clearance between the lens and sensor for the reflex mirror, and the body size for the pentaprism and viewfinder, you are able to significantly reduce the size and weight of the camera.

But what makes a mirrorless camera different than a regular point-and-shoot?
Firstly, these cameras (Fuji X100 excluded) retain the ability to interchange lenses. Fast primes, long zooms, all of these lenses and the image quality improvements they bring to the table can be yours with a mirrorless system, compared to the fixed 3x zoom of your cheap point-and-shoot.

Second, your average point and shoot has a tiny sensor. I mean really small. Here's a graphic.

Most point-and-shoots (with few exceptions) have one of the smaller sensors on this chart. A smaller sensor is going to cut down on your image sharpness, reduce the dynamic range of your image, and give you hellacious image noise trying to take pictures in low light. Current mirrorless cameras have either an APS-C sized sensor or a 4/3rds size sensor.
-It's rumored that Nikon and Pentax are coming out with tiny sensored mirrorless systems. We'll see I guess.

Third, everything can be smaller. Smaller bodies and smaller lenses, while still retaining the large sensors inside, allow for a far more compact camera and lenses than a traditional DSLR.

Fourth, some people may not care about this, but the short distance from lens-to-sensor makes these mirrorless systems super easily adaptable to use all sorts of manual focus lenses, old system lenses, surveillance camera lenses, enlarger lenses, etc using just a simple adapter ring instead of a complex adapter with its own built in optics.



These sound awesome, what's the problem? Why don't you already own one?
That's a good question.

First, the auto focus may not be as good as that of a traditional SLR. These use contrast detection auto focus instead of phase detection which a normal DSLR uses. Most people are unlikely to see a performance difference, but if you shoot sports frequently then this may be a big deal for you.

Second, loss of the reflex mirror and pentaprism means no viewfinder. What has always set apart "professional" digital cameras from consumer models (in the eyes of a layman) is the need to look through the viewfinder. It keeps people from wanting to use our cameras all the time, and we all think it makes us look cooler. I have a hard time reconciling this difference myself, I'm thinking of ditching my traditional gear for a mirrorless setup but this is a huge mental block to get past, I love my viewfinder.

Second part 2: Digital viewfinders are integrated into some models such as the Samsung NX10 and the Panasonic G1/GH1/GH2, and digital viewfinders exist as an accessory to models like the Olympus E-P1/E-P2 and the Panasonic GF1/GF2. A non-adjustable optical viewfinder that clips into the accessory shoe exists for the Sony NEX-5 and is designed for use with the 16mm F2.8 lens. An optical finder also exists for some Olympus/Panasonic lenses but I don't know much about it. However, no digital finder will be as fast or as clear as a single lens reflex optical viewfinder in a traditional DSLR.

Note: The Fuji X100 is a special case and you could write a thread alone just about its fancy magic viewfinder.

Third, you have to buy new lenses. Maybe. For the Sony NEX system, there are currently only 3 E-Mount lenses with more planned to come soon. Panasonic and Olympus have a decently sized stable of lenses for the Micro Four Thirds system(m4/3), wikipedia claims there are 18. Currently Samsung also only has 3 NX-mount lenses. Like I said before though, the small-ish sensors and the short lens-to-sensor distance makes adapting almost any lens to mount up to these systems a very trivial affair, you just might have to manual focus them. The Fuji X100 has a fixed 35mm equiv lens.

Fourth but not least. There isn't really a shutter and mirror to keep dust off your sensor. Be quick with your lens changes because without the lens on it your sensor is very exposed.



Alright, sounds good. So what models are out there?
Olympus has the (higher end)E-P1/E-P2 and (lower end) E-PL1/E-PL2 models.



Samsung has the NX10 and NX100




Panasonic has the G1/GH1/GF1 which are bodies with build in viewfinders and hand grips.


and the GF1 and GF2 which are brick-like point-and-shoot styled bodies.

Panasonic also makes a M4/3 lens that lets you shoot NATIVELY IN 3D

And Sony has the discontinued NEX-3 and the current NEX-5



The NEX-5's included flash unit uses the same mount that the OVF for the 16mm lens would. You can't use both at the same time.

The Fuji X100 is a special beast of it's very own and I'll let somebody more knowledgeable fill us in on why it's so awesome.


Ricoh GXR, I don't even know where to start. It's a self-contained lens and sensor unit that you swap and attach to the body.



If anybody has information they want to add, please let me know and I'll add it to the OP.

Any current owners care to chime in to give advice to other prospective new owners or those still on the fence? Good stories or amazing pictures you've taken with these systems?

Let's talk about these little devils!

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at May 9, 2011 around 13:42

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Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



NEX users, tell me about spot metering with the cameras, spot AF? If it's possible to move the manual focus assist zoomed section around quickly to zoom in on a particular item? I have a canon FD 50mm f1.2 I'd like to play around with if I get a NEX. Is back button focus a feature thats possible? Can you turn off all the stupid shooting tips?

Currently I have a Canon 40D, so I may miss some of the advanced stuff if I get a NEX to replace it. Basically I have a NEX vs x100 debate going on with myself. Through a connection I can get a NEX-5, 18-55, 16mm, and the OVF for a little under half the amazon.com price of an X100. If the NEX is as awesome as I hear it is, I may not miss some of the features the X100 brings to the table.

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at May 12, 2011 around 10:17

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Krakkles posted:

If I have Nikon DX lenses, can I put those on any of these cameras?

Also, what's EVIL? I like the sound of that

The first acronym ever thought up for these systems. Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens.

Afaik you can mount any lens on any compact system with the proper adapter. Aperture control is another matter entirely though.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



I work at a big US retail electronics chain in the camera department, and a customer who just bought a NEX was giving me his take on it.

I told him about my plans of maybe giving up my 40D for a NEX and he said it's mindblowing that people would carry around a camera that large, because he thinks carrying the NEX with the kit lens and 16mm is already a massive inconvenience vs a point and shoot.

If only he knew about some of us in the dorkroom.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



What do you consider a "normal" DSLR?

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at May 15, 2011 around 09:56

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



poopinmymouth posted:

I only use the OVF, minimal chimping and when I do, it's on the EVF not the LCD (which I love, no pulling the camera away from your face to chimp). But the batteries are the size of a box of matches, so it's not like it isn't a cinch to just keep one in your pocket.

This has always been my attitude and it puzzles me why more people don't think this way. I have 3 batteries for my 40D and no matter where I travel I always have at least one spare.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



How do you NEX guys deal with not being able to pick your focus point? And how do you deal with having to hold the shutter button at half press while you manually focus in the MFD or AFD whatever setting?

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



disgraceful posted:

My GF2 just arrived the other day after selling several thousand euro worth of Canon gear and removing all camera paraphernalia from my home last year. I keep instinctively bringing it up to my eye.

A lot of reviews and comments talked about the touch screen and lack of mode control - if anyone here uses a phone with touch screen then there will be next to no adjustment needed, to be honest that and occasional focusing during the short time I've owned this are what I've used the screen for.

So far, highly recommended. Plus the 14mm is a beauty.

This is obviously your body telling you to buy the EVF.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



keyframe posted:

I have one, it is great.

edit: Also I have to ask, why are we discussing x100 in the micro 4/3rds thread?.


If anything I'd say this this thread is more NEX than m4/3.

Also there's nowhere else the x100 fits except here, and you'll notice I specifically put it in In the first post.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



plasmoduck posted:

Since someone mentioned film rangefinders (and I couldn't figure out which dorkroom thread would be best to ask), has anyone here used a Canonet QL17 GIII or a Yashica Electro 35 GSN? I've read some reviews on them but would appreciate some more insights on handling and quirks, and am pondering which one to pick if I wanted to try out "rangefinder-style" shooting. Currently my only clue is that I'd prefer aperture priority (Yashica) over shutter (Canonet), but honestly I have no clue if it isn't a completely different story with SRLs than rangefinders.

The Film Thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=2864270

or the Centralized Gear Thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3163404

Will probably get you better answers than in here.

Both of those cameras are pretty universally loved, but I know some people have them, I've seen them discussed in the film thread.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



So sony alpha rumors is reporting that an x100 killer in the form of the NEX-7 is likely in the works.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-...e-of-the-nex-7/

What do we think about this?

I'll find it even harder to justify the cost but I think that was what the NEX should've been in the first place.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



poopinmymouth posted:

I think people are missing the importance of the OVF for some people. Someone coming from only point and shoots using the screen to compose, or entry level dslr bodies with tiny dim viewfinders might not get it, but the X100 has a viewfinder of equal size and brightness to a full frame camera. If an optical viewfinder is important for your photographic experience, the x100 delivers, and nothing else does without caring a lunchbox sized lead boat anchor.

I've been flipping back and forth between using my NEX-5 and my 40D and the viewfinder is the #1 thing I miss. I'm reserving judgement until the NEX-7 or whatever comes out. An X100-like camera with an EVF and interchangeable lenses is what I think I'm looking for (if it ever does come out)

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Edit

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at Aug 26, 2011 around 22:02

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



I don't know how many of you saw this, but these releases are looking pretty exciting. I for one am excited about the NEX-7 and the new lenses for the NEX system.

Sony Alpha Rumors posted posted:


http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-huge-sony-leak/

(SR5) Huge Sony Leak!!!
According to our sources that is the list of new products Sony will announce on August 24:
A77 -> 24 megapixels
Vertical Grip VG-C77AM
16-50mm f/2.8 SSM
A65 -> Has the same 24 Megapixel sensor but less fps
NEX-7 -> I have beent told that this camera is a very serious Fuji X100 (Click here to se it) competitor!
NEX-5N -> An updated Sony NEX-5 with new sensor
LA-EA2 with built-in Translucent mirror -> A revivial of the Leica Visoflex (Click here to se it)
XGA external OLED viewfinder (works on NEX-5N only)
Zeiss 24mm f/1.8
Sony 55-210mm f/4-6.3 OSS
Sony 50mm f/1.8 OSS
VG-20 -> successor of the Sony NEX-VG10.

The Full A77, A65, NEX-7 and NEX-5N specs
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-...d-nex-5n-specs/

A77
24.3 MP Exmor HD CMOS sensor
19 points AF sensor with 11 cross sensors
ISO 100-16000, with expandeable ISO 50 option
1920 x 1080 60p/24p AVCHD 2.0
P/A/S/M manual controls while recording video
1200 zone metering
Completely new developed Bionz processor
12 fps
1/8000 shutter speed
TrueBlack 921k 3-way tilt LCD
3 million dot OLED viewfinder
Smart teleconverter function with 1.4x and 2.0x option
Built-in flash
Built-in GPS
Battery life with over over 500 shots
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and Moisture proof
Multi Frame NR
SD card (no CF!)

A65 (differences with the A77)
A77 has 19 point AF system with 11 cross sensors while the A65 has only 3 cross sensors.
A77 can do 12 fps while the A65 can do 10fps.
A77 has new 3 way tilting LCD, A65 has ďclassicĒ tilting LCD
A77 can do 50 ISO while A65 can not.
The A77 has a magnesium body while the A65 has not.
The A77 has 1/8000 shutter while A65 has a 1/4000 shutter
The A77 has a top LCD screen while the A65 has it not.
The A77 is Dust and Moisture proof while the A65 is not

NEX-7
24,3 Exmor HD sensor
100-16.000 ISO
1200 zone metering
1920◊1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 (28Mbit/s) video recording
3 million dot XGA OLED viewfinder
3inch 921k TruBlack LCD display (touchscreen)
10 fps
20ms startup time
Built-in flash
New universal hot shoe
Battery life for over 400 shots
Magnesium alloy body

NEX-5N
16.1 MP Exmor sensor (Same us Sony NEX-C3)
ISO 100-25600
1920◊1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 video recording
Shutter 1/4000
10 fps
Can take over 430 shots with one battery
Same AF speed as the GH2

VG-20
16 MPX Exmor sensor
1920◊1080 60p/60i/24p AVCHD 2.0 video recording
Can record stills in RAW
3 inch touchscreen (swifel)
audio level control
IR AVR remote


And the news that makes me most excited, a hands on of the NEX-7 and the new Zeiss lens.

Sony Alpha Rumors posted posted:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-...h-leaf-shutter/

A NEX-7 one minute hands-on reportÖ(Zeiss with leaf shutter?)

I got a hands-on report made by one of my new sources. He saw the NEX-7 and Zeiss prototypes. The rumor is ranked with SR3 only because what he tested where prorotypes and might be a little bit different. For example I donít knwo if what he saw was the final Zeiss version. My guess is that he tested a different version of the lens. Anyway, this is his text:

ďI can tell you though that the NEX-7 feels good in the hand. I only got to use the camera for about a minute but the EVF is superb. It reminds me of what itís like looking at an iPhone retina display. You simply canít see the pixels because they are so small. I didnít see any rainbow effects and the refresh rate was super fast. There is still a tiny bit of lag when panning but itís much improved. I tested it inside a somewhat dark restaurant, performance may be better in good lighting. Autofocus with the 24mm is very fast. It seems its almost as fast as the m43rdís cameras. Maybe just a tiny bit slower but the important thing is that for single autofocus is as fast as anybody would practically need it to be.

About the Zeiss lens: Iím told Sony spent a lot of time and effort trying to not make the lens too big without compromising quality. I havenít seen image quality first hand but Iím told its typical zeiss quality. Beautiful colors and a high amount of natural contrast.

The Nex-7 is also going to be expensive because it has a customized sensor. Sony, Iím told, has struggled a bit with getting good corners because of the short registration distance. Sony originally planned for the NEX to be marketed at consumers and didnít realize it would be a hit with enthusiast too. To combat the short registration distance, they put in some micro offset lenses. All lenses will benefit from this, including legacy glass so people will see improved performance with their rangefinder lenses.

The one real surprising news I can share with you is that the 24mm zeiss has a leaf shutter! I was very surprised to find this out but Sony is going to market this as the modern day rangefinder for street photography. I was told they are filming a commercial showing the evolution of the rangefinder into the NEX-7. It will be posted online in the coming months. It wonít be on tv because Sony doesnít expect the average consumer to buy this camera, they believe the 3 and 5 series is for them.
I was told that the 3million dot evf will make manual focusing a bit better as well.

I had my X100 with me and I can tell you that the X100 vs NEX-7+24mm Zeiss is going to be a tremendous fight. The NEX is quieter than the X100 because you can hear the servo motor on the X100 while the Zeiss motor is dead silent.

You should tell your readers to hold off on buying the X100. Iím seriously contemplating selling my X100. I still prefer the OVF to the NEX EVF but overallt he NEX seems super impressive. The NEX-7 still has the same tilt screen which is useful for shooting from the hip.Ē

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at Aug 9, 2011 around 05:58

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



I wear sunglasses whenever I'm outside for more than a few minutes and the LCD on my NEX-5 is nearly impossible to see with polarized lenses on. It drives me nuts.

If the NEX-7 has an EVF that's viewable with sunglasses/glasses on then I'll probably go for that, if not then maybe an x100 or whatever this new thing fuji is teasing. Otherwise back to my 40D. (Oh god so heavy)

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



whatever7 posted:

You don't need to glasses for EVF even if you are shortsighted.

I'm paranoid about my light colored eyes because all of my grandparents have sight problems likely coming from UV damage, and I have only astigmatism which means my sight is ever so slightly double vision-y at all distances. Thus I wear prescription sunglasses when I'm outside.

I hadn't considered, though, that because an EVF is so close it would look ok even without glasses on. I'm just lazy and never took off my glasses when using my 40D and also because I needed them because of the OVF.

I guess I need to go play one of the pelicle mirror sonys to see how good an EVF can be before I jump in.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Yeah I'm sick of all the shortcomings NEX-5 and I'm making arrangements to buy an x100 within a few days.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



I keep seeing used x100's for sale for $850-ish with a few accessories like a case and extra batteries, sometimes in warranty sometimes out of warranty. I found a legit shop that's clearing out their x100 stock and I got the guy down to $1k out the door for a brand new one.

Is it worth saving a few hundred and getting a used one or with so many quirks like the sticky aperture blades affecting some models would you guys rather spend the extra and get a brand new one so I get the full warranty length?

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Welp I went and ordered an x100 today. We'll see how I like it come friday!

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



All you x100 users out there, is a sandisk class 10 30mb/sec ultra card fast enough to make the camera not freak out and take forever starting up? or should I get something faster?

http://mobile.dailysteals.com/ $13 for a 16gb class 10 sandisk ultra. deal is good for 19 hrs.

Edit: I found this on deals.woot.com and a few people are reporting problems with dailysteals. Grain of salt I guess.

Question still stands for x100 owners though!

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at May 2, 2012 around 08:16

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



teethgrinder posted:

My dad wanted to buy a modern camera, loved Olympus in the OM days, and I recommended the OM-D.

I saw it for the first time today, and poo poo, it's not even remotely simple or straight-forward. I actually had a hell of a lot of trouble figuring out simple settings. I really think the interface is terrible. I've been shooting their m4/3 bodies since the E-P1 came out and this one is complete different and hardly intuitive. Like yeah, as a geek, I wouldn't have trouble if I owned this thing, but drat, it was a terrible thing to recommend to my nearly 70-year old dad.

On the plus side, the body is practically as small as any other Olympus m4/3 camera.

That's one of the reasons I tried to hard but ultimately gave up on the NEX. The UI is, in my opinion, so unintuitive that it took a few minutes of screwing around every time I needed to change anything.

The x100 menus are weird too but there is so much you can do with hardware buttons that I hardly need to delve into them at all.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



My last final exam is on wednesday and I can't wait to get out and shoot everything with my x100 that finally arrived but has been languishing on my desk, unloved.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Greyish Orange posted:

Decision - X100 or 5N and an extra lens or two?

I bought a Nex-5, realized I wanted more manual controls and a real viewfinder (when the 5 came out there was no EVF attachment), impulse bought an X100 in the spring and now am looking to sell the nex-5.

VV

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Digital Jesus posted:

Hopefully this is my last schizophrenic post for a while. I'm having last second jitters before my X100 order ships.

For an every day, take everywhere camera, with an eye for street photography, is there anything I should look at in that price range? (around 850 AUD). I'll still have my 60D and lens collection for special occasions, etc.

I'm my own worst enemy

I keep coming back and looking at the NEX-5N which is $200 cheaper.

I had a Nex-5, then bought an X100, and sold the Nex straight away. The X100 is the closest thing to a perfect camera I have ever used.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



krackmonkey posted:

NEX folks - Sony giveth and Sony taketh away - http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/18-2...announced-soon/

I have to think that the camera/sensor folks at Sony must truly hate their optics people. How can you look at what the competition has been enjoying for more than a year or longer and then step up to the plate with such mediocre offerings? Going from 16mm to 20mm and not improving speed at all? Maybe in a world where the Panasonic 20/1.7 hasn't existed for YEARS. It's a shame, because NEX is such a capable and compelling system. Waiting for the quality of glass the system deserves is enough to drive a man to drink.

This is exactly why I sold my NEX-5. Lack of viewfinder was killing me (yeah I know, newer models have them.) but the camera wasn't that flat with anything but the 16mm lens and promises for lenses just kept going unfulfilled.

X100 forever.

I also don't understand the push that everything must be full frame. Small cameras need smaller sensors and smaller lenses in order to be small and have zoom lenses.

For any FF EVIL camera to succeed it better have a load of tiny prime lenses. Sony has previously committed to their 1 lens per century schedule, split that between APS-C and FF lens line production and you may have a FF NEX with the same 2 lenses available for the first 4 years and 5 bodies.

Rontalvos fucked around with this message at Jan 24, 2013 around 21:52

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



feld posted:

Why would you be so upset about NEX lens availability when you can do things like this

90% of pictures I make are outside in the daytime, and both of my grandparents have macular degeneration so I wear sunglasses outside 100% of the time. With polarized sunglasses, the LCD on my NEX-5 was nigh unusable. Hell, even without sunglasses it struggled to be visible. When the sun is so bright it makes the LCD screen unusable, it doesn't matter what kind of lens you have.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



HPL posted:

My 40D and XTi have been collecting dust since I got my 5N. It's just so nice to have a camera that small and light and with such strong low light ability. If there's one thing I wish Sony would add to their lineup, it's some more E-mount telephotos like an 85mm f/1.8 or 135mm f/2.8. If they ever do that, they'll have the general lens range wrapped up nicely from 16mm on up.

My 40D, Tamron 17-50 and 70-200F4L have been nearly untouched since I bought my X100, except for the time I saw the Endeavour space shuttle getting moved through Los Angeles. And the X100 pictures were better anyway.

Why can't we bring ourselves to sell off the old gear?

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



From the previous page, but I liked it:

The Dorkroom > The EVIL/Micro 4/3rds/NS/Q/NEX Megathread - NEX-ism leads to X100 disease, so watch out!

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



TheAngryDrunk posted:

Definitely get the x100s. From what I understand, they never did sort out the sticky aperture blade issue on the x100. If you get stuck with that you could get hosed.

The internet groupthink on the dpreview and fuji-x series forums seem to suggest that X100 cameras with serial numbers starting with 21 and up, sticky aperture problems are non-existant/extremely rare.

FWIW my 1-year old 21 SN camera has had no problems and it's not been babied at all. VV

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



mAlfunkti0n posted:

Canon 40D, with a 17-50 tamron, 50mm 1.8

I replaced this same setup plus a 70-200 F4L with an X100 and in a year I have only looked back when I needed the reach of the 70-200 when at my girlfriends college graduation.

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



Pegnose Pete posted:

Yeah that's exactly what I'm looking at. As a Canadian though any warranty work would be a pain as I assume I'd have to go back to the USA to get it repaired. Plus when I take it across the border I might get tagged and forced to pay a couple hundred bucks, lessening the savings.
:\

Can't you just dispose of the original packaging and take a few pictures with it to 'prove' that you had it with you the first time?

Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



keyframe posted:

Joke aside we need a new OP/thread already because the OP is pretty outdated don't you guys think?

I am still perfectly happy with my X100 so I haven't kept super up to date on what models are the new hotness. I'll work on an OP update but if people would like to contribute stuff for the OP it would happen a lot faster.

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Rontalvos
Feb 22, 2006



I love my x100, but if I wanted to step into a Fuji with interchangeable lenses, what model should I go for?

Once I bought my x100 I stopped paying attention to the many bodies Fuji has put out and now I'm behind the times.

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