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SpiderHyphenMan
Mar 31, 2010

There's a hyphen, damn it!

Deleting Troper Tales is only the first step in necessary action. Heavy moderation of creepy people must take effect.
First step: ban everyone who has defended TATMNBN. Ban them from posting in the forums or editing entries permanently. I know there's the whole "we accept everyone" thing but there is a huge loving difference between the acceptance of furries/otherkins/soulbonders, and the acceptance of people who openly admit to enjoying an anime that contains "fanservice" of a ten year old girl.

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Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!

spite house posted:

Hasn't Fast Eddie got some weird beef with nested quotes? I dimly recall a really long, stupid argument about that being documented here.

iirc it's pretty much the same reason you get banned/probated here for quoting something and doing a single emoticon reply or saying something like "seconded/quoting for emphasis". But instead of using your mods to ban/probate people that are being retarded he just opted to not have the functionality.

Or I'm wrong and it's because somehow haters will use it to do mean things to our soulbonding Nakama.

Jesoteric
Apr 4, 2010


Nibiru posted:

Perky Goth

Lady GaGa is dark and alternative

She does have some dark themes? And while she's popular she is "alternative" by merit of being unusual. I don't know, that one's not that far out there.

Babbage
Sep 6, 2010


#post394377845

Why We Will Never Have A Quote Button:


See also this thread, which contains the immortal phrases "That format is the universally recognized format for troll-at-work, you mean" and "It is the most annoying thing you can do on any forum board in the world. It is just that no one told you before".

Our lesson learned, and our terrible rudeness exposed, we then referred to each other by post numbers rather than quote. At least until we got bored.

edit: linked to start of the quoting derail rather than the top of the page.

Willheim Wordsworth
Dec 29, 2008


Razorwired posted:

iirc it's pretty much the same reason you get banned/probated here for quoting something and doing a single emoticon reply or saying something like "seconded/quoting for emphasis". But instead of using your mods to ban/probate people that are being retarded he just opted to not have the functionality.

Or I'm wrong and it's because somehow haters will use it to do mean things to our soulbonding Nakama.

Fast Eddie was bitching about quoting multiple people in one post and replying to each, because "that's the mark of a troll" or something along those lines.

e: poo poo, now this is a completely redundant post

my pog boyfriend
Jul 2, 2011

Thankfully there's a GUI interface that isn't shit so we'll use that.


Babbage posted:

#post394377845

Why We Will Never Have A Quote Button:


See also this thread, which contains the immortal phrases "That format is the universally recognized format for troll-at-work, you mean" and "It is the most annoying thing you can do on any forum board in the world. It is just that no one told you before".

Our lesson learned, and our terrible rudeness exposed, we then referred to each other by post numbers rather than quote. At least until we got bored.

edit: linked to start of the quoting derail rather than the top of the page.
I think this is a really bad idea, mainly because by quoting you right now it becomes incredibly apparent what I'm talking about, and nobody has to go through roundabout bullshit like "well poster 54325, in response to your comment that i'm now going to rewrite to get everyone who hasn't read it up to speed, X" instead of just quoting it and letting people read for themselves if they want to, or not if they already read it, or just skip it entirely. Slightly longer pages is a small price to pay for coherency.

Dickweasel Alpha
Feb 8, 2011

Mod Secrets #614 - Experto Crede is the one who bought most of those frog avatars


SpiderHyphenMan posted:

Deleting Troper Tales is only the first step in necessary action. Heavy moderation of creepy people must take effect.
First step: ban everyone who has defended TATMNBN. Ban them from posting in the forums or editing entries permanently. I know there's the whole "we accept everyone" thing but there is a huge loving difference between the acceptance of furries/otherkins/soulbonders, and the acceptance of people who openly admit to enjoying an anime that contains "fanservice" of a ten year old girl.

NEVERMIND I DON'T WANT TO KNOW I DON'T WANT TO KNOW I DON'T WANT TO KNOW

PalmTreeFun
Apr 25, 2010

*toot*


I'm pretty sure Eddie is trying to say "I don't want to code this" and making up a bullshit excuse to not do it.

Just use phpBB or something like that, christ.

^^^^ I thought saying its name was only bannable in ADTRW. But basically it's a thing where a kindergarten teacher and one of his students gently caress each other or something. I remember the Japanese name but I don't know the English one. It's a huge creep magnet for obvious reasons.

Illuyankas
Oct 22, 2010

oh god what


FrancisYorkPatty posted:

I keep hearing about TATMNBN, but what is it actually? Don't post the name here, PM it or something or other that won't cause Google hits, but I want to read the Wiki page for it and see what the whole summary of it is, because I'm getting the feeling these short little Goon Anecdote Quotes aren't doing it justice if we can't even post its actual name.
It's a nine year old girl trying to gently caress her teacher. That there is already far more than I ever wanted to know about it.

Acne Rain
Nov 10, 2008



Babbage posted:

#post394377845

Why We Will Never Have A Quote Button:


See also this thread, which contains the immortal phrases "That format is the universally recognized format for troll-at-work, you mean" and "It is the most annoying thing you can do on any forum board in the world. It is just that no one told you before".

Our lesson learned, and our terrible rudeness exposed, we then referred to each other by post numbers rather than quote. At least until we got bored.

edit: linked to start of the quoting derail rather than the top of the page.
Coherent discussion is considered trolling? Responding to multiple points is trolling? What the gently caress am I reading here?

Dickweasel Alpha
Feb 8, 2011

Mod Secrets #614 - Experto Crede is the one who bought most of those frog avatars


Yonic Symbolism posted:

Coherent discussion is considered trolling? Responding to multiple points is trolling? What the gently caress am I reading here?

No, no, I agree with the point-by-point breakdown thing. It's just an excuse to not code it, but I've learned that when it comes to discussions if you notice a post piecing a part another person's post point-by-point in some

quote:

QUOTE

response

quote:

QUOTE

response

quote:

QUOTE

response

format, then you should just skip it because it never makes conversation better.

e: vvv It's possible to refute multiple points by making a post with multiple points. In D&D as an example, when a conversation devolves to the above format, you can almost guarantee it's going to be a lot of semantic pseudobabble that doesn't contribute anything to real discussion and is just going to be a few internet nerds typing back and forth at each other until one is banned, probated, or stops replying, at which point the other will take some form of victory from it. I posted at IGN's The Vestibule for enough years to smell that bullshit from a mile away. Coincidentally, The Vestibule and Troper'sTales could pretty much go hand in hand for terrible arguments and goony reddit-level discussion

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 26, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation


FrancisYorkPatty posted:

No, no, I agree with the point-by-point breakdown thing. It's just an excuse to not code it, but I've learned that when it comes to discussions if you notice a post piecing a part another person's post point-by-point in some


response


response


response

format, then you should just skip it because it never makes conversation better.
I entirely disagree. Sometimes people post tons of and make more than one point, and it's a much better idea to address each point individually than just quote a huge mess or put

quote:

at the top. Also in case you missed it, like half the posts in this thread are in multiquote/response format.

Goggle Fox
Jul 9, 2011



Yeah, doing that (i.e. short snippet, short snide response) is only useful for two things: picking through posts to invalidate them by ignoring any part that makes sense (common for a certain variety of idiot), or taking apart a massive block of text solely to laugh at how horrible it is. Though honestly, taking longer blocks is usually a lot more informative/funny.

The quote function itself simply not existing? That's just being lazy. It takes no effort to code.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't even see the code. All I see is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...


Another sign of Eddie's laziness in coding: Yay, we have a time zone setting (this was only just added in the last...year maybe?). Now why the hell isn't it used for timestamps everywhere? (See: the board list, the mailbox, private messages, the wiki)

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010

Here you go, buddy!

I agree that breaking one huge post into quote sections to refute each individual point made can sometimes be "the symptom for the troll at work", but the post that FE calls a troll in that point is actually quoting several different people.

That isn't the work of a pedantic troll, that's the work of a guy who wants to reply to a few points that seperate people made in a format that allows people to know what's actually being commented on. Posting five of those loving stupid arrows to refute a point made five posts above is loving stupid, noone particularly wants to have to scroll when you could just quote the post.

Then again, Fast Eddie is a genius* who decides how the insignificant peons on his site should post, and to hell with how every other website ever does it differently.

*Fast Eddie is not actually a genius

the party god
Feb 23, 2011


What is Fast Eddie even like in 'real life'? Every time I see him making up excuses for why he won't change this/that about his site or coding, or downright refusing to use the same formats as useable websites for some smug superiority complex all I can think of is a narcissistic version of Ulililia, only it's a website not a game.

Miijhal
Jul 10, 2011

I keep looking. Why do I keep looking?!


the party god posted:

What is Fast Eddie even like in 'real life'? Every time I see him making up excuses for why he won't change this/that about his site or coding, or downright refusing to use the same formats as useable websites for some smug superiority complex all I can think of is a narcissistic version of Ulililia, only it's a website not a game.

He's nowhere near as cool as Ulillillia.

my pog boyfriend
Jul 2, 2011

Thankfully there's a GUI interface that isn't shit so we'll use that.


Miijhal posted:

He's nowhere near as cool as Ulillillia.

This.

To me, Fast Eddie is a lazy, substandard programmer who actively refuses to listen to anyone outside of his own "community"(which, in practice, is not even listened to) despite everyone inside saying that he should do so. He has this vague idea of what people think of TVTropes and won't listen to anything else. He's not the worst administrator I've seen(admittedly, I've seen some pretty terrible ones so my standard is way off) but by no means is he even approaching positive.

The Saddest Rhino
Apr 29, 2009

I could hear the roots of loneliness creeping through me when the world was hushed at four o'clock in the morning


He apparently programmes video games in a large company as a job, and at least one of the games he was involved in got slammed hard in zero punctuation. If you bring yahtzee up before him he gets into a frothing rage, but won't delete the page because way too many troopers like the series unlike this troper.

He also looks like what I had imagined the narrator of the rime of the ancient mariner to be, too.

Edit: I meant the mariner himself not the narrator

Shlapintogan
Jul 15, 2011

HAW


The Saddest Rhino posted:

He also looks like what I had imagined the narrator of the rime of the ancient mariner to be, too.

Four times fifty living series
(and I heard no sigh nor groan)
With heavy thump, a lifeless lump
Posts dropped down one by one.

Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!

The Saddest Rhino posted:

He apparently programmes video games in a large company as a job, and at least one of the games he was involved in got slammed hard in zero punctuation. If you bring yahtzee up before him he gets into a frothing rage, but won't delete the page because way too many troopers like the series unlike this troper.

He also looks like what I had imagined the narrator of the rime of the ancient mariner to be, too.

Edit: I meant the mariner himself not the narrator

Really? It seems a little weird that someone that A) has shown that he knows code like I speak Swahili and B) is that insufferable could be much more than that QA guy nobody likes talking to.

I'm inclined to say he's pulling an "uncle that works at Nintendo" move.

Mr. Pumroy
May 20, 2001

how've you been?...
that's good


This thread about whether or not to delete TT is pretty

I like how utterly incapable people are in defending the continued existence of troper tales. This one so far is my favorite:

quote:

Since there is apparently some confusion over the issue:

I'm not trying to argue a position at all.

I do not want to argue a position.

I merely want to state my position. I have done so multiple times.

I accept full well that some people are going to disagree with my position, just as I disagree with other people's positions. However, I do try to respect that people have their positions without forcing them to justify those positions constantly. I do not expect people to constantly argue their positions if they choose not to.

My position is likely deeply dissatisfying to some, particularly as I flipped my vote for the reasons I gave. However, this does not mean that I will engage in argument, civil or not, just because said position is dissatisfying to some.

I ask that my position merely be respected, as I simply want the wiki to become better. You're welcome to think that I'm mistaken that my position will, in fact, make it better, but at least give me the courtesy of believing that my intentions are true.

"Look guys I want you to respect my opinion! Even if I myself can't seem to work up the wherewithal to respect my own opinion enough to defend it! Please don't question me ever!"

(2.06:1 at the moment. From what I understand if it falls below 2:1 the effort will fail, and there's still a full day of voting left)

PS -

Deadpan Snarker posted:

Danteventresca sez: Languages i am proficient in(from first acquisition to most recent): 1) Deadpan Snark 2) English 3) troper

The Saddest Rhino
Apr 29, 2009

I could hear the roots of loneliness creeping through me when the world was hushed at four o'clock in the morning


Troper Tales posted:

Danteventresca sez: Languages i am proficient in(from first acquisition to most recent): 1) Deadpan Snark 2) English 3) troper

"When I was a baby I was the most sarcastic rear end in a top hat with no expression ever!"

EDIT:

Fast Eddie posted:

We do trope newscasting. Tropes are part of storytelling, not just fiction. This 'verifiability' thing is something you are just pulling out of the air.

Trope "newscasting"

Shlapintogan
Jul 15, 2011

HAW


What the gently caress am I reading posted:

Danteventresca sez: Languages i am proficient in(from first acquisition to most recent): 1) Deadpan Snark 2) English 3) troper

Aw gently caress, one of my eyes went off alignment reading that.

Morven
Aug 8, 2011


The Saddest Rhino posted:

He apparently programmes video games in a large company as a job

He's said he is a contractor who works on NPC AI in games, generally as a team lead. I don't think he's ever given specifics. It's worth noting that's a very specialized area that doesn't cross over very well with web coding, and it's not at all improbable to be good at that yet an amateur at web coding in PHP. Especially when you're working at that web coding in your Copious Spare Time (i.e. periods of downtime, or late at night).

He lives in the Bahamas, and that checks out with the IP addresses he's edited from (back when that info was public, so this is not revealing any secrets). Sometimes he's not there, though, depending on the contract.

Compared to many people who run sites that got popular, he's not all that bad in my opinion. Much less bad than Jimmy Wales, for instance. He has the typical issues of someone in charge of a project that's grown; he's less in touch with what's going on than he thinks he is, because at one time he was up on everything going on and that situation has only slowly slipped away with site growth and reductions in his free time. Thus, he's prone to not knowing something until one day he finds out and makes a rash decision. This isn't a personal criticism; it's more or less an inevitable consequence of site growth.

The moderator team in my opinion isn't bad, and we manage to act as a restraining influence on rashness on Eddie's part and (to some degree) craziness from the userbase, but there's not that many of us. Thus, we frequently don't notice poo poo unless it's brought to our attention.

Worth noting also that the majority of the moderators, and Eddie, are significantly older than the mass of the editing and forum population, who are in their teens or early twenties by and large. This is both a good and a bad thing, in different ways.

Morven
Aug 8, 2011


Goggle Fox posted:

The quote function itself simply not existing? That's just being lazy. It takes no effort to code.

I'd disagree. Given how trivial it is, it wouldn't be a problem. The issue is with Fast Eddie's idea of "The Way The World Should Work", not in the nonexistent coding difficulty. After all, the quoteblock markup already exists.

Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!

quote:

Danteventresca sez: Languages i am proficient in(from first acquisition to most recent): 1) Deadpan Snark 2) English 3) troper

Due to poo poo like this. If they don't kill TT can the Tropers here please convince them to eliminate the pages for Deadpan Snarker, Tsundere, and anything remotely close to "badass"? Tropers really don't get what those words mean and at one point they really were like 90% of the Troper Tales this thread was mocking.

Patter Song
Mar 26, 2010

Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.

Does Eddie ever reflect on how profoundly weird a group of people his project's attracted? His vendetta against Japanese influence suggests he has, but his "accept everyone" suggests otherwise.

Morven
Aug 8, 2011


Razorwired posted:

Due to poo poo like this. If they don't kill TT can the Tropers here please convince them to eliminate the pages for Deadpan Snarker, Tsundere, and anything remotely close to "badass"? Tropers really don't get what those words mean and at one point they really were like 90% of the Troper Tales this thread was mocking.

There's a fair consensus these days that these are tropes one should never claim about oneself, actually. However, a lot of people contribute to e.g. TT who aren't otherwise big users of the site.

Nobody who claims to be a badass is one.

Besides, characterization tropes like these are exaggerated stereotypes, deliberately so. Thinking that they apply to real people (seriously, not e.g Chuck Norris jokes) is a sign of insufficient engagement with the real world.

Shlapintogan
Jul 15, 2011

HAW


Well, the majority has dropped down below 2:1.

Granted, it's 1.99:1, so there might be a little bit of leeway (if there isn't, then ), but there's always the chance it'll fall a bit more over the next however long they want to drag this voting out.

Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!

Morven posted:

There's a fair consensus these days that these are tropes one should never claim about oneself, actually. However, a lot of people contribute to e.g. TT who aren't otherwise big users of the site.

Nobody who claims to be a badass is one.

Besides, characterization tropes like these are exaggerated stereotypes, deliberately so. Thinking that they apply to real people (seriously, not e.g Chuck Norris jokes) is a sign of insufficient engagement with the real world.

Yeah, but by your own admission TT almost never gets cleaned out(though through your posts, I realize it's not exactly your fault). This plus the fact that lots of the TT pages have people saying "this Troper" when the top of every page says, "It's says your handle when you post, say you is what you should do." makes me think the Internet would be better off if those guys just didn't have those titles to give themselves anymore.

Dickweasel Alpha
Feb 8, 2011

Mod Secrets #614 - Experto Crede is the one who bought most of those frog avatars


Can I be a mod? I'll be a loving napalm-filled firestorm on TVTropes, a wrath never seen by nerdkind before. Many will cry, many will be down-trodden, wondering why-oh-why that mean Mr. York wouldn't let their review of TATMNBN stick without some major consideration to key points, or why so many popular users have been outright banned for being creepy fucks,

but at least the forums will be readable.

SpiderHyphenMan
Mar 31, 2010

There's a hyphen, damn it!

FrancisYorkPatty posted:

Can I be a mod? I'll be a loving napalm-filled firestorm on TVTropes, a wrath never seen by nerdkind before. Many will cry, many will be down-trodden, wondering why-oh-why that mean Mr. York wouldn't let their review of TATMNBN stick without some major consideration to key points, or why so many popular users have been outright banned for being creepy fucks,

but at least the forums will be readable.
As long as Fast Eddie is in power nothing is going to change. Even if he deletes Troper Tales he's still going to accept the insanely creepy fucks who say things like "How do you know the anime that contains panty shots of ten year old girls is pedophile jack-off material if you haven't seen it?"

Dickweasel Alpha
Feb 8, 2011

Mod Secrets #614 - Experto Crede is the one who bought most of those frog avatars


Which is why I will gain a following, usurp his power, overthrow the establishment, take over TVTropes and usher in a new era.

Then I'll invite all the bronies from that offsite brony site and make them moderators, tell them to ban pedophiles, and step back from the trainwreck.

It's a flawless system, really.

Psycho Serum
Apr 28, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Or hell when you become a mod just rename 'deadpan snarker' to 'sarcastic rear end in a top hat' then watch the whole TT house of cards collapse

The Saddest Rhino
Apr 29, 2009

I could hear the roots of loneliness creeping through me when the world was hushed at four o'clock in the morning


Psycho Serum posted:

Or hell when you become a mod just rename 'deadpan snarker' to 'sarcastic rear end in a top hat' then watch the whole TT house of cards collapse

"Sarcastic rear end in a top hat" still sounds somewhat complimentary. You probably need to change it to "Humourless Fuckwit".

Dickweasel Alpha
Feb 8, 2011

Mod Secrets #614 - Experto Crede is the one who bought most of those frog avatars


I dunno, I'm thinking more along the lines of "Ironic Pedophile"

only ironically, of course.

Hammer Backspace
Jan 3, 2011

we're gonna throw a world domination slumber party and we're not inviting any boys!!!!


Mr. Pumroy posted:

(2.06:1 at the moment. From what I understand if it falls below 2:1 the effort will fail, and there's still a full day of voting left)

What? How does that - that isn't how voting works. That isn't even how maths works. What the gently caress? So if there is a clear and obvious majority in favour of deletion, it still won't count because it isn't enough of a majority? Even by troper logic, how does that work? Are they deliberately sabotaging any drive to improve their site? Do they enjoy the stench of stagnation? Does anybody really find the tedious, irritating white noise of Troper Tales worth saving enough that they're willing to override a clear desire to get rid of it?

Can someone clarify here, I can't even comprehend this.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

I hate this book and I hate Railrunner and I hate Thunderbark and I hate Black Magic and I hate everything they stand for.

Hammer Backspace posted:

What? How does that - that isn't how voting works. That isn't even how maths works. What the gently caress? So if there is a clear and obvious majority in favour of deletion, it still won't count because it isn't enough of a majority? Even by troper logic, how does that work?

Not all matters, even in a democracy (and TV Tropes is far from being run on democratic principles), are decided by a simple majority. Typically, major changes to the status quo - like amendments to the memorandum and articles of association or the constitution of a country - require a super-majority, like 2/3 or 3/4 of the shareholders / citizens voting.

That said:

Hammer Backspace posted:

Are they deliberately sabotaging any drive to improve their site? Do they enjoy the stench of stagnation? Does anybody really find the tedious, irritating white noise of Troper Tales worth saving enough that they're willing to override a clear desire to get rid of it?

Your remaining arguments are probably on point.

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Razorwired
Dec 7, 2008

It's about to start!

In a warped Troper's all-inclusive mind a concept doesn't need to be marginally defeated, soundly rejected, or even loving buried in a landslide poll to be destroyed. It needs to be voted down to the point that 3 people out of 10,000 think it's kind of sort of maybe okay and the rest hate it. This is a site that acts as a refuge for furries, otherkin, Twilight fans, Objectivists, soulbonders, pedophiles and bronies. Some of these groups are more alienated than others and deserve at least a bit of ire each, but at TVTropes they find a place to call their own. A little hugbox tucked away in the corner of the Internet where big bad goons and haters won't bother them so much. If we remove some people from the box, Tropers go for the slippery slope fallacy and believe that they might be booted next if they cave and exlude anyone.

Even if it's only a small group that likes to post in TT, and an even smaller group posts the creepy and inane poo poo they can't reject them. Geek Social Fallacy #2(?) kicks in and they go back to the stance that everyone must be accepted. If the vote is close at all TT will be kept around. Not that it had much of a chance of leaving even when the vote was at 4:1.

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