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simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Oh. Right. Well...

It seems I am all caught up. I'm not quite sure what to do now.

Hi, I guess?


Really, though, thanks so much for doing this. My memory was all mixed up about which events came when, and half the stuff we've seen so far I thought was on disc 2.

The best thing about this LP is your balanced telling of it. Yes, we get battles, we get mechanics, but most importantly of all we get exposition, and it isn't a boring, untouched wall of text. You add perspective, and I appreciate that.

And goofy boss pics. Those too.

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simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I'm starting to think my FF7 copy (or, possibly, my memory) had something wrong with it.

I am 100% certain that I fought Tonberrys in the Northern Crater*, and that the Midgar Zolom had Beta but also Trine. It was the PAL Platinum version, by the way. I also have no idea what your "reels" error/problem thing in the Battle Square is. The only thing I remember being wrong there is when it says "Continue?" one of the options is "Off course!"

e: * These were a different, but similar enemy. And Zolom having Trine is probably just my bad memory. In short, disregard this post!

simplefish fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Mar 8, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

My initial assumption was that Aeris would be a sweet, delicate flower type, and her actual characterization is refreshing.
I know it's been said a million times but when I was 9 and playing this I thought she was the girly girl. Tifa punched things, didn't wear a dress, didn't wear pink, didn't seem to flirt with Cloud (I was a very stupid 9 year old, obviously), and when she attacked it didn't go "PYONNGGG" almost comically.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

I really like the boss music. A lot.
I play bass, and I used to be able to play along at full speed. Though I still play in a band, I haven't tried to play Those Who Fight Further in years. When I did just now it was freaking impossible. As I type this, I'm trying to work out if it's worth my time to re-learn it.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(After leaving Midgar) I don’t mind that the game actually tries to justify the three-fighting character limit by splitting everyone up. I suppose it does get repetitive.
Hell, do you remember what Barret's second line in the game was? It's part of his personality, way before you get to the world map. Also, I thought PHS stood for Phone Home System (and separately that GBS was the Goon Bulletin Service). Maybe I was stupid for several years past 9.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Kalm/Cloud Flashback) Sepiroth has the same hair as Aeris. Hmmm… is he an Ancient, too? FEDIT: Why yes, he is! Nice touch foreshadowing that with the hair.
Because he's worth it ;-*

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

Clouds memories collapsing is disturbing. At least the exposition part has playable gameplay. That’s better than a lot of games when you just have to stand and listen.
Cloud collapsing for no reason early on is a masterstroke. He's obviously not going to talk to the party about collapsing and hearing creepy schizo voices, and there's no clue as to why they're happening, so the only solution is to PLAY ON! FASTER! That and they can be genuinely creepy at times.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Yuffie joins the party) Okay, seriously, ‘Yuffie’ is the dumbest name I’ve ever heard. It must be short for something, but I cannot figure out what that could possibly be. Is this the only FF game she appears in? At least she talks a mot more than I expected for a hidden character.
I found a thing. You be the judge. (just ctrl+f yuffie)

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Cait Sith joins the party) Uh… I’d heard the name Cait Sith before, but I had no idea it was an actual cat.
Actually on the subject of being stupid, I also thought that the black cat thing was just called Mog ('cos the pink/white things with wings are called moogles, and the other is a cat, or "moggy", right?) and had no idea why when Cait Sith hit something with his hands, for some reason he had to be equipped with a megaphone. Or why there was an regular plushie cat toy on top of a sentient fortune-telling robot, but whatever actually none of that character makes any sense.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Gogonga) Hmmm… I find the mystery of Zack and how he knew the two girls interesting. What is Tifa hiding? I’m not quite ready to believe she’s a Shinfa spy, though. But why hasn’t Cloud heard of him, and five years ago… that was the same time Sepiroth burned Cloud’s hometown, wasn’t it? Ooh, this should be juicy.
I never understood this when I played it and I still don't now. I understood other things, which some people seem to think are more complicated (I'll tell you when we get there) but never worked out Zack, Tifa and Aeris. No spoilers for me, please!

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Vincent joins the party) Hey, that Vincent render. I remember that from TheDarkID’s “Dirge of Cerberus” LP, but I don’t think I made it past the first update because it was a sequel or something and I knew nothing about the original.
I remembered Vincent as being available only on Disc 2, like Wutai. Then again, my whole memory of the timeline is cut up, switched around, and has holes shot through it for good measure.

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

(Wutai) Wow, that Don Cornelius guy is back?
I'd completely forgotten about this too, until I saw them crucified on the Buddha eyeballs. I began to doubt my memory, when I caught myself thinking I was sure they were upside-down... nah, that would just be stupid. Oh, actually, hang on..."
It's really nice to see that he wasn't a one-off, and he's not the main villain, or the headless bio-experiment main villain, or the perverted "science" villain, or the secondary badass navy suit finger-snappin' villains. I was going to say he's comic relief with a very, very dark side, but looking back over that list I'd say that it'd probably more unusual for him not to.


edit from preview: holy crap. I clicked reply just after Stabbey posted, and didn't realise I've been alt-tabbing lazily back to this for an hour.
Also Yuffie, rhymes with fluffy. And Yahtzee, rhymes with "cat say". I'm probably wrong on both but I'm stuck in my ways!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Fister Roboto posted:



TEENAGE NINJA vs. MUTANT TURTLE

FIGHT OF THE CENTURY

I... I think I love you.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Golden_Zucchini posted:

I want to say they already did what with (Maxim) Gorky and (Anton) Chekhov, both Russian writers of the late 19th century. However, I can't find anything on Staniv (though it may be a diminutive for Stanislav in which case there are hundreds of candidates), and googling shake returns more results than I know what to do with.

If you take Godo as Godot (as in Waiting for Godot), then you could have Staniv as Stanislavsky, at a stretch. Similarly, the way Godo says GOGO is a reference to Estragon (who is refered to as Gogo by Didi - real name Vladimir, certainly Russian in origin).

The play can be seen as rooted in the aftermath of the Second World War (and Wutai is reeling in the aftermath of war), and though we haven't seen Lucky the bag carrier, we do have BOY who we fight as the Speed master.

Of course, this is all very much of a stretch and is probably not true. But it's interesting to ponder.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I'm hearing a lot about how the FF7 characters are pretty much interchangeable, and how steal is broken and how enemy skill breaks the game.

I like that. If the game was a stats-fest, or there were really specific knacks to master for certain points in the game, it wouldn't make it a worse game. Just different. I see FF7 as a sort of interactive novel. There are many ways to be good at it, and you just find what's the most fun for you. Same with the free character choice: sure, some are mechanically better than others, but they all get the job done. You can choose a team that you like and not get punished for it.

These days, I like to break games. I like to figure out how they tick and then tie them to a chair and make them beg for mercy. I wasn't like that when I was 8, 9, 10 years old. Being able to play through it with whatever I felt was "cool" meant I stuck through it. It exposed me to the magic. There's a lot to be said for that, in my opinion. These days, I do like 100%ing things, or at least getting close, but being able to reach the end of the story was the most important thing back then. Steal something useful? Brilliant. Didn't need it, but cool to have it. Like the characters' ultimate weapons - you won't get them unless you have the right party member with you in the right place (and good luck figuring that out without a guide) but the thing is, so long as you always play with a party you like, you'll always get the ultimate weapons for the party you'd choose anyway.

When designing a game, you do run into trouble when there is a selection of characters. Some will naturally be better than others, and if you make that difference too large, you just end up with a load of characters nobody ever plays hanging in the background. Equally, if you balance them all, then everything is overpowered. To me, the second option is still better because instead of looking at how you might have been able to do something differently, it's best to focus on that you were allowed to do it the way you first chose. Materia and job systems both support that: being a viking or a knight vs a black mage lets you play the game in a different way. Same end result - you deal damage, bosses die, story progresses. It's just how you get there.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I always thought Blank from IX was a great one for belt silliness.

Belt over eyes!
Belt over shoulder!
Belt round middle!
Belt with pouches holding up loincloth!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


So the first time I ever saw Steiner in FFIX it made me think of Buzz Lightyear. Looking at the pictures side by side it's not so obvious, but just looking at Steiner on his own, Buzz was my first thought.

Did/does anybody else get/see this or was I just crazy back then?

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Mister Olympus posted:

Everyone did this their first time through the game and I will hear nothing to the contrary.

I wasn't so exciting as you lot, it seems. I kept the standard blue and had fuchsia in the top left corner. When that got boring, I went for a light-almost-white grey in the top left and mint green for the rest of it.

But what everyone did do in the first playthrough, I'm sure, is this:

Booties posted:

I wanted to say how lost I got in the area right after the fight with Reno when I was a kid. I couldn't see where that pink pole-bridge began and ended. Probably game overed on those transforming houses a lot.
Either that stupid pole bridge that looked like an object rather than background rendering so I didn't realise I could walk on it, or not spotting the tunnel on the same screen.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Fister Roboto posted:

I made a robot entirely out of grenades! Only issue is that if one of the grenade lynchpins gets removed it falls apart and explodes.

Is this the bastard child of Hojo and a grenade?

WILL IT BREED?

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Back in the day I used a turbo fire controller and arm wrestle. Exactly zero skill required.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I fought the invisible guy when I was a kid, but (probably obviously) did not win.

After that, I never went back to it.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Cliffhangers indeed!

Nice to see the thread updating again!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


And now you (that is, OFS only, so yes, the spoiler will spoil things for others) find out that Barrel's name is somewhat ironic, given the date mechanics impact of dropping the barrels in the church! You probably knew about it anyway, but I'd forgotten until now. And if I read correctly, that Battle Multiplier no longer applies.


I'd totally forgotten about the "Cloud using cover" thing, but I do remember believing that it was a Thing. God this whole LP just reawakens parts of my brain that have lain dormant since I last played, things that were such ingrained memories - and now it's like I'm playing for the first time again.

Take that dragon, for example. I don't remember the woman being inside it. So does that mean I was a difficult git and just deliberately refused to choose EDK's name every single time? Or did I just forget?

And I read all the accents in my natural 'head voice'. Since I'm English, so is everybody in the game.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Explains why he really has the keystone...

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Just the gondola scene there, AFAIK

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Yeah I reckon that's vague enough, because although I've played the game a couple of times, I don't know what you mean!

VagueRant, don't try to clarify it for me now, but do give me a heads-up once the LP gets there if you remember?

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Infinite item using W-item is though.

W-item was great. You knew it was cheating, but if you really wanted lots of something it was a nice near-end-of-game reward to sidestep boring resupply runs. It was there to use either if what you were duplicating didn't matter, or you really needed an item to progress further. Making it legit wouldn't be the same, though, and if it's already known-about, how can you keep it in without sanctioning it?

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Pesky Splinter posted:

You come here as a aniMAY, you're gonna leave an aniMAN!"

I just know that one day, I will say this aloud.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Brainamp posted:

Lucky for you A-kon is this weekend. I'm sure you could find somebody to say it to there, whether you would make it back out is another question.
No, no, going out of my way to create an opportunity would weaken it and be really rather try-hard. No, one day, something will happen, a situation that deserves such a smackdown, and the words will leave my lips before I know what I will have done.



For content - Purple, black or blue? You decide!
This is a quick-n-dirty colour palette done by taking screenshots and then using a colour-picker tool. No, it's not authoratative or probably even that accurate, but since the line between blue and purple is different to some people, I thought it might be interesting. Three values for a part that's lit, one that's neither lit nor in shade, and one that's supposed to be in shadow.


Lit -> Medium -> In Shadow

"Blocky" Cloud:
513F67 -> 3F3051 -> 211D2C
"Battle" Cloud:
343144 -> 1F1E30 -> 0D0D19
(In especially bright light, lightest is 403869, darkest is 120C18)
"Advent Children" Cloud:
3A3E4A -> 222632 -> 07080D

What got me is just how dark all of these colours are. Even the "light" colours aren't as light in block form as they seem in comparison to their surroundings. Really says a lot about the environment FF7 has. The colours are surprisingly similar between Battle Cloud and AC Cloud, with Blocky Cloud being a bit lighter overall, but with similar variance between light, base colour and shade.

simplefish fucked around with this message at 01:25 on May 31, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Eco-terrorist? Yes. Marxist? Hell no.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


There are lots of ways to make the game bend over and beg for mercy. Summons are at the flashy end of the scale, Enemy Skill is at the efficiency end. It's really just how you prefer to play.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


This sequence is the biggest disappointment ever.

"Hey look, you have to do puzzles to get the black materia AND you have to work out how to do this without getting crushed!"

It should have made you work out that Cait Sith is a robot, switch him into the party, then continue.

And by continue, I mean actually have the game present you with some of these puzzles. I remember being all pumped up about that, and then just "Oh hi guys i'll handle it, no puzzle-solving for you"

---

I don't buy that interview bit. It totally screws with the theme of redemption that's laid on thick here. You have Cait Sith, who's always been under control and never shown otherwise, suddenly deciding that sacrifice is just THE BEST. Much better, in my opinion at least, was "Sure I gave them the keystone, but I thought it was the right thing to do. Now I've learned that Shinra can't be trusted to protect this sort of power and I want to make it up to you guys and make things RIGHT". It shows the ability to change for the better. The sacrifice element comes from [the risk of] Cait Sith's controller losing his job, getting arrested for helping the enemy, and generally being a no-good-double-crossin' snake. The irony would be delicious.

But no. Retcon ftw.

I would like to see the original Japanese translated to see if it makes any more sense that way (like we did back in the old days of this thread), and I can't remember what happens if you have Cait Sith in the party instead of Tifa. Probably nothing much.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I'll have something by tomorrow!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


I won't have the art done by tomorrow. An old friend has just arrived back in town and I'm going to go hang out.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Biggs? Wedge? Noooooo!

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Doesn't he say he's a fortune-telling machine though? I haven't gone back and checked, but I thought the game made it pretty clear, at least to my memory.

Then again my memory surrounding this game has turned out to be very flawed.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


berenzen posted:

and b)that he's been toying with the party this whole time- he could have dominated Cloud long before players even met him.

It's us. We're Sephiroth. We fly in when we feel like it to take control of Cloud, make him get things, make him give things away, make him beat things up. Cloud doesn't understand us, so he's always one step behind. We decide where we're going to take him, and then Cloud is the one who has to go halfway around his world to get there. He's literally chasing us across the globe. And then, when we're done, we fly away and turn off the console.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Can I make a comment about one of Barret's level 3 limit breaks? I'm pretty sure you haven't shown it yet, but you don't mind if we name materia, so I thought I'd best check.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Based on this:

Elentor posted:

Similarly, you can talk about battle mechanics as long as it doesn't spoil anything, and most of the time it doesn't. So don't spoiler-tag spell names, it's not a spoiler that we get a spell called Fire 3 or that you fight Goblins.
I figure it's okay to talk about a Barret's 3.1 Limit Break, Satellite Beam.

I was thinking:
How does Barrett get Satellite Beam as a limit break if the Shinra Rocket never made it into space?

Then I went back and re-read the section, and realised:
- The rocket is Number 26
- Cid says there were lots of prototypes: not prototype parts, or engines, "but prototype after prototype". Presumably this meant that Shinra knew they had something capable of reaching Outer Space
- Yes, it's Outer Space, not just Low Earth Orbit. You don't shoot someone off into the stars if you don't know that you can get them back. So presumably they've done orbital spaceflight with other pilots?
- Similarly, Cid says he's heading to "Outer Space" - he qualifies it too. Although, he also says "First man in space". So maybe Shinra did go straight from propellor aircraft (the only type of heavier-than-air flight we've seen) to "Let's head for Outer Space; Palmer says to go big or go home!" That, or the first space pilots were all women or Red XIII creatures or something I don't know. We're scraping the bottom of the barrel here.
- But none of those things mean we can't have satellites. In many ways, it'd make sense to put telescopes up there to find a destination for the rocket, a moon or planet to slingshot back around or something?
- And as for weaponised satellites? Totally possible - plausible, even:

Cid posted:

You know Shinra developed a lot of gadgets during the meaningless war, right? Now it's a Mako company, but in the old days it was a weapons manufacturer. Well, they came up with a Rocket Engine. There was so much excitement about the thought of going into outer space. Our dreams got bigger and bigger.

See, on it's own that's quite disjointed. Gadgets. Weapons. Rocket engine. Outer Space. Dreams. We get both the sense that Shinra was designing things just because it could - the war is described as meaningless and advances in technology are able to be called "gadgets". On the other hand, maybe Cid considers everything that can't fly to be a mere gadget. Still, he tells us that Shinra isn't what we think it is today; the audience is asked to shift perception. The next bit of information will be vital to reaching the conclusion, and that information is: "they came up with a Rocket Engine". The key here isn't the warhead, isn't the guidance, but the engine. They didn't come up with a whole rocket either.

Just imagine, there would have had to have been a moment where someone realised that the engine could be used to reach space. This wasn't the purpose of the engine design project, it's something that came about because of excitement, and dreams. Now, factor in that if Shinra saw the Space Exploration project as "just a financial number" (Cid's words), they must have expected a profitable return.

Before we get to my main conclusion, we can posit that Shinra instigated the war and kept it going until they found Mako. It is their army, not a national one. This was, then, a war for profit. Simple protection racketeering*: We are at war -> give us more money to fund an army to protect you -> that army buys weapons from us -> we keep any land or resource gains that result from the war -> we make more enemies -> give us more money for military purposes etc... The people shut inside Midgar (if it even existed, since this was pre-Mako) were receiving news from Shinra sources (we saw their TV news already) and so were at the mercy of Shinra. Who wouldn't look for defence if they were told the borders were under attack? This makes it Shinra's war, and not humanity's war, which is a very important point.

We have something interesting happening here: on the one hand we have the prevailing spirit of humanity, where, for individual beings capable of at best "meaningless"* and at worst greedy violence, humans as a species can also be pretty darn clever and inventive. More than that, we have a humanity where, when given weapons of war, can find a way to turn them into dreams, hopes and excitement. Exploration - a noble goal questing for knowledge, on behalf of mankind. Setting out into neutral territory, not to plant flags, but to see what's out there. Sure, Shinra might have had other ideas, but that isn't where the romantic visions stem from in the public's mind's eye.

Now, the program died not when the war ended (which is hardly surprising, since the rocket isn't a weapon in itself, just based on existant weapon technology) and not when Mako was discovered*. Shinra "nixed their space exploration plans" (Cid) when Shera stopped the launch. Shinra stopped caring when the cost outweighed the expected profit. Still, there was hope, apparently: "Then, it was all over once they found out Mako energy was profitable. They didn't even so much as look at space exploration." It wasn't until Mako discoveries that space exploration was truly dead in the water, even though Shinra had decided that particular plan had to stop. So what kept going? What separates Shinra nixing it and Shinra never looking back, as statements? The only other part of the Space puzzle left is the general public. They still had drive and passion for space, until placated with cheap Mako energy and consumerist comforts. That's when it all stopped.

*Yeah, notice that there's no reactor in Wutai? Notice that they want more materia? Probably because there's very little Mako in the area to make materia. We found materia just lying around in a drat cave - two different caves, if memory serves. Whatever the war with Wutai was about, it wasn't for Mako. It can be inferred that it was war simply for the sake of war, and given the imbalance in power (Sephiroth, we are to believe, could have wiped out Wutai on his own) it seems likely that the war was prolonged for its own sake too.

--------------------------------------------------------
Wow. Well, that wasn't what I was going to write. Got carried away there. Really, I was just going to say "How is there satellite beam with no satellites?" then tried answering myself, then went off on a tangent. Ignore it if you want.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Rockdash posted:

Or maybe the answer is just "Because it's :cool:."

Well obviously. Like I said it was meant to be a one-off remark about "BUT SPAAACE?!" but once I went back over the rocket stuff so much more jumped out at me. That's the real meat of my post.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Semoch posted:

You've just described North Korea. :aaa:

I shudder to think what kinds of crazy :science: is going on in Kim Hojong Il's labs.

North Korea isn't as clear-cut as that. This lecture is quite illuminating of the circumstances surrounding the North Koreans' view of themselves and the rest of the world.

Indeterminacy posted:

It's definitely neat to think about the way the Shinra company must have systematically developed their military-industrial complex, and that how they did things in the pre-commercial era might have been engaged with a general public in a more lofty idealism than we see in the present day Midgar grime.

That said, as far as we've seen, it's difficult to get the feeling that there is any kind of unified culture that isn't Shinra. The various towns and villages are isolated from one another, and it looks like they're mostly mining settlements formed by small groups of close families. Sure, there's probably a bit of the pioneering spirit about them all, but I would probably read this more in a "let's go get whatever's out there" spirit than a "hey! explore strange new worlds!" intellectual curiosity.

The only obvious exception here is Cosmo Canyon, the site of the only working observatory. Everything else seems tied in with more local, materialistic needs in a much smaller world than ours; if you're not living in the city that Shinra built, you're working to mine the resources that Shinra needs.

Oh, and Inditerminacy, that's very true - Shinra is pervasive but entirely fails to bring people together other than consolidating the conquered into their sphere of influence. Though Barret contradicts this (by moving continent) he did so to fight Shinra. His conflicting presence ties in nicely: Shinra had no real enemy except those that they created. Shinra was asymmetric in that it didn't ostensibly harm its subjects: it merely maintained an imbalanced status quo, and gave them cheap power to keep them paying into the pot and not rebelling. Barret (and Avalance) provided an opposition, otherwise we'd have had the captains Shinra running spaceship Gaia and all its passengers - happy to be there - into the ground (pardon the pun). The division between Shinra and the rest of the world is so sever that they don't even fall into the same category of humanity in many ways. And what greater symbol of division and hierarchy can there be than one group literally above and suffocating those below them, with no (literally) upwards mobility, and the rich refusing to meet the poor on their level (again literally - the game doesn't pull punches). The general population become victimised because they are kept ignorant by their masters. Barret knows the truth and has the drive to seek out others in the world to join his cause, going beyond town borders.

In this way, he' s a perfect example of the common man in a Shinra-involved town, but notable because of his uncommon response. Shinra moves in, adds industrial comfort at the expense of traditional way of life, and you get places like Kalm and Corel, where people sit around with nothing to do because they're now Mako towns; or you get places like Wutai and Costa del Sol* where the locals' culture has changed to suit tourists; or you get Junon and Midgar, filled with old weaponry and slum shops mixed in with crappy living space, and people who are scratching a living with any sale they can. It really emphasises that Cloud and co are probably the only ones buying that sort of stuff when you get the shopkeeper dialogue. That reinforces the hero status of our party we're the only ones who need the tools to save the world.

You mention Cosmo Canyon as an obvious exception, and it is, but it also provides a very neat link between the earthy nature and underground caverns, and the dwellings set into the cliff to give vertical levels with the observatory. The whole place is a link between the Lifestream (under the earth's crust) and the sky (the meteor from the Temple of the Ancients). I mean, they make it incredibly clear: you go near the place and the sun starts setting - the light which sustains the world begins to subside; fire falls from the sky to Earth.

But you're also forgetting Bone Village. That's some exploration for the sake of exploration, and I may be misremembering, but I always got the sense that it was Shinra-run. In fact, this isn't really spoilers but we haven't seen much of that place so I'll keep it vague: There's an indicator that Shinra have been to Bone Village at some point. Not saying what it is or how strong an indicator it might be; this is far from conclusive.

And since we're on the subject of digging things out of the ground, let's think about mining. It consumes a natural resource in a way which is not easily replaceable. It's not that dissimilar to Mako gathering in its ecological impact.** Except for that fact that, you know, Mako is Lifestream and Lifestream is both Gaia and people. While ore is part of Gaia, it's not part of people. Taking Mako really does crystallise (if you'll pardon the pun) the idea that it's an act by humans which defeats humanity itself. See above the notes on division.

I mentioned industrial comfort above, and it sticks. Shinra's main line of business is Mako. That requires massive capital investment. Their other line is weapons and supporting an army. Again, a very large amount invested. They don't do small-time, and that's why lots of FFVII's towns (in contrast to FFIX's, incidentally, which all seem perfectly sized - except maybe Alexandria) feel so tiny and insular. This is not poor design nor technical limitation, mind you: the designers want the towns to feel far apart and alien to each other because in that way Shinra are made universal trespassers. That this should be the lot that want to rape the Promised Land (by its very name, you can tell this is theft as it is waiting to be given to another party) is far too good a match to be accident. Everywhere Shinra go, they take. We see it wherever we find people. And this hands-off approach is actually worse. If you're going to be an evil overlord, you'd bloody better get involved. Power vaccuums are what let people like Dio, Dyne and Don Corneo gain power. For Shinra, it is the place and not the people that take precedence. At the other end of the scale, we have the Cosmo Canyoners, the independent cafe owners and dressmakers in Midgar, we have Johnny's very individual jacket, we have that random weapons house guy with the safety deposit box, the shop owners cast aside in Junon. Hell, we have Cid. What better case could there be?



*And come to think of it, Golden Saucer. Slightly different in its relationship to the locals, in that it thrives off prisoners and the previous inhabitants try to make sales off people going to the cable car. That kind of puts it in Junon/Midgar category, in that the population have lost their raison d'etre and have been displaced (the prison is the old town).

**The guy who rewards you for running from battles rather than destroying life is a miner. Let me have a think about that. He's also largely asleep. Laziness? Fatigue? Seen it all before? Hmm.

simplefish fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 28, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Holy gently caress, you beautiful bastard Elanator.

Elentor posted:

It's only fitting. Water. The Birth of Life as we know it. But as irony would have it, it's a cradle we cannot return.
Such is our existence, both literally and metaphorically.

Hot drat! Yes, that's the sort of wavelength I'm on at the moment. This is the poo poo I live for.

This:

Plus this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRAkpXTmCs
equals some very, very powerful memories.

Some of the things you said were very poignant. The fact that we last faced up to Sephiroth probably the biggest realisation for me. Elanator, you are worthy of LPing this. If you were some sort of terrible writer it just wouldn't work.

I was speechless for a good ten minutes when I first saw this (the ending sequence), in the pre-internet days. Just.... wow. But...! No... But...

It didn't change a thing.

And that, folks, is very much the end of that chapter.

simplefish fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jun 28, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


The switch to the synth, and the 6/8, and the choir all play off each other. And hello again Tubular Bells, we haven't heard you since the Mako reactor and we all remember how bright and happy an experience that was.

The melancholy, lost harp, following the synth though. It doesn't have a melody even though it's the most auditorily clear instrument; the one which stands out the most. If that harp is Aeris, it's not in control of the situation or the direction it's headed.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Hah, sorry, I had it right as Elenator, then thought I was wrong so changed it to Elanator.

And really, spoilers the very post after a post saying "no spoilers"? Don't quote them either, it's harder to get everyone to remove them.

I'll do some more analysis-y stuff if people like it?

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


blaarg I are good at read, apparently. Seriously I've been reading it as Elenator in my head this entire thread.

simplefish fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 28, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


redacted

simplefish fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jun 28, 2012

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Didn't think that was a spoiler. Sorry.

simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


George posted:

Jesus christ, will you morons just shut up entirely about anything to do with the game if you can't remember what's happened and what hasn't yet?

I remember when I found out that my college roommate had never played this game and knew literally nothing about its story. I fast-tracked his playthrough to this point like no tomorrow because I knew it was a ticking time bomb.

I understand how protective you're being, and I support it. I have a friend in a similar situation, except that they haven't started playing yet.

It's not that I was unsure about what happened: I was 100% certain that what I posted wasn't a spoiler. I felt really bad and a good slice embarrassed, though, so I saved my original post before editing out. I wanted to know where I went wrong so that I avoided doing the same thing by accident with my friend.

I went through this LP from Temple of the Ancients onwards. Couldn't see my mistake. Watched a video LP from the same point to current, since I know Elentor doesn't post every single box of text. Still couldn't see what I'd spoiled.

I thought I was taking events we'd already seen, adding a comment which is never addressed let alone answered by the game, and putting it forwards as my opinion. Sorry that I screwed it up. But it'd really help me to know how I screwed up. Not asking you (or anyone else in this thread) to post it here (obviously) to whoever can help me, send an email to [email="irrelevant"][/email] if you read my original post and can help me spot my error - it'd be much appreciated.


Turns out I remembered what has happened so far perfectly fine, but had no idea that my speculation was an answer that the game will confirm or deny. I thought that it was "one of those mysteries". Apologies again.

simplefish fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jun 29, 2012

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simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all the fish gallbladdΣrs!


Oh, will it? I did not know that. That explains what I did wrong.

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