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toplitzin posted:I'm going to need most of my levels in Rogue. I'm the only person in the party who can disarm traps. I'm looking to be the best Rogue I can be, without being combat gimped. You can also just take rogue levels more sporadically and straight up dump points into Search/Disable/UMD when you do. Use your Swash skillups for Tumble and other skills you might want.
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Sep 13, 2011 02:55
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LightWarden posted:That's not a problem, Swashbucklers have 4+Int skill points, a decent use for Intelligence and can put points into Disable Device, Search, Open Lock, etc. You only need one level of Rogue for trapfinding. Since it's a cross-class skill, it's at a two-to-one ratio if you don't have the Able Learner feat (which usually requires a human or someone of similar blood) or a nice DM, but you can have full ranks in all the trap-finding stuff you need. Currently I'm as follows: I just hit lvl 6, but haven't assigned it yet. Level 6 (3 Rogue [Favored Class]/2 Swashbuckler) Whispering Gnome (+2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Chr) STR 12 (+1) DEX 21 (+5) CON 14 (+2) INT 16 (+3) WIS 8 (+0) CHA 8 (+0) Bluff 5 Disable Device 11 (8 +3) Escape Artist 10 (5 +5) Hide 18 (8 +5 +5) Listen 6 (4 +2) Move Silently 17 (8 +5 +4) Open Lock 13 (8 +5) Search 11 (8 +3) Sense Motive 5 Spot 7 (5 +2) Tumble 9 (4 +5) Use Rope 5 Current Feats: Weapon Finesse Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Daring Outlaw Special Abilities: Sneak Attack 3d6 Penetrating Strike +1 Evasion Trap Finding Also thank god for my bag of holding, my light load tops out at 44 Lbs. I'm at 43Lbs with a Rapier +1, 2 Daggers, Crossbow, Studded Leather Armor, and almost 5k in gold. toplitzin fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 02:59
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I'd probably swap Combat Expertise and/or Combat Reflexes for Two-Weapon Fighting and maybe another feat like Staggering Strike or something. I'd also spend 2100 to invest in a Mithral Chain Shirt +1, putting your AC at around 21 before you start factoring in other items. LightWarden fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 03:11
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LightWarden posted:I'd probably swap Combat Expertise and/or Combat Reflexes for Two-Weapon Fighting and maybe another feat like Staggering Strike or something. Mithril instead of the leather? right now AC is 19. 10 +3 +5 +1
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Sep 13, 2011 03:16
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toplitzin posted:I'm going to need most of my levels in Rogue. I'm the only person in the party who can disarm traps. I'm looking to be the best Rogue I can be, without being combat gimped. Most DMs running a sensical game aren't going to have pitfalls in people's living rooms, and when you're down in an crypt or whatever a fighter with a log over his shoulder and a bag of flour can be just about as certain that he's not walking into a trap that a rogue is. Unless your DM is popping you a passive opportunity to detect a trap without needing to demand a roll every five feet for the rest of your life, trapfinding is really just party favors.
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Sep 13, 2011 03:20
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toplitzin posted:Mithril instead of the leather? right now AC is 19. 10 +3 +5 +1 Right, a mithral shirt with a +1 enhancement bonus on top of it (another +1000 gp to the cost). That puts your AC around par with enchanted full plate and heavy shield, which isn't bad for the frontline, and should improve if you can find any other way to boost your Dexterity at later levels (an additional point at level 8, any sort of enhancement bonus, etc).
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Sep 13, 2011 03:25
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KiloVictorDongs posted:It looks like Improved criticals might be a pretty good next feat, it looks like that would extend my crit range all the way down to 17? Definitely grab improved criticals. That way you don't need a Keen weapon and can use the enhancement for something else that you want. Thundering or some other enhancement that goes off of criticals would be a good follow-up.
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Sep 13, 2011 15:59
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Spending a feat on something you can buy with gold is a bad idea. Feats are way, way more scarce than gold-- don't take Improved Critical in lieu of a keen weapon. Edit: If you have an arcane caster in your group, blackmail him into taking Heroics from the Spell Compendium. He can use it to give you Improved Critical during big boss fights, if you're adamant about not spending the cash on Keen, and it's a buff with a lot potential tactical use anyway. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 16:07
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Cabbit posted:Spending a feat on something you can buy with gold is a bad idea. Feats are way, way more scarce than gold-- don't take Improved Critical in lieu of a keen weapon. I always liked the certainty that no matter what greatsword I picked up, I'd have the 17-20 range. That may have been partly due to my DM's practice of having rolling criticals, though. What's that? You rolled in your crit range again and it's a hit? Well, now it's a x3! Roll again! Hey, x4!
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Sep 13, 2011 16:40
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If you're running into a situation where you have to pick up any given greatsword instead of using your greatsword a lot, then you need to check out what's going on there. Even then, the Heroics route is much more cost effective; chances are, the presence or absence of Improved Critical/Keen is gonna matter more on boss fights than with random thugs.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:18
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Cabbit posted:If you're running into a situation where you have to pick up any given greatsword instead of using your greatsword a lot, then you need to check out what's going on there. Certainly not the norm but for what it's worth I'm playing in a campaign with extremely limited access to merchants + double price on magic items and my greatsword fighter has had three greatswords destroyed irrecoverably by sundering monsters by 7th level.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:34
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Cabbit posted:If you're running into a situation where you have to pick up any given greatsword instead of using your greatsword a lot, then you need to check out what's going on there. If you're playing with the enchanting time rules, it almost makes more sense to buy a new weapon, especially at higher levels. I think going from +4 to +5 takes about a month. And just like with family members, there's drama to be had when one of the heroes is caught without their favored weapon. So in those circumstances either you accept that your DM might run an adventure or two in the time when you don't have your Keen weapon, or you have to try and find nothing but Keen weapons (assuming you like the crit range that much) or you drop a feat on it (again, assuming etc.). The way I generally play is that if I know my character's sticking with a certain kind of weapon (whatever it is) and I've got a feat I'm not certain what to do with (like KVD here) I'll grab Improved Crit. While I might have made better choices a couple of times, I've never been sorry about it.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:45
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Cabbit posted:If you're running into a situation where you have to pick up any given greatsword instead of using your greatsword a lot, then you need to check out what's going on there. Even then, the Heroics route is much more cost effective; chances are, the presence or absence of Improved Critical/Keen is gonna matter more on boss fights than with random thugs. Definitely. Don't spend your feat on something that overlaps with gear, especially when you can spend the same feat on something that STACKS with gear(like Leap Attack) and go for both.
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Sep 13, 2011 17:48
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LightWarden posted:Of course, the problem is that crit-fishing (and being a rogue in general) relies on the target not being immune to critical hits, which is not the best of bets in 3rd edition.
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Sep 13, 2011 21:22
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veekie posted:Definitely. Whoa, am I reading Leap Attack right? With a normal power attack, I can drop up to 12 points to hit for an extra 24 points of damage (because I use greatswords). A 2 handed leap TRIPLES the extra damage from power attack--so I'd have an extra 72 (24*3) points of damage on a full power leap attack? If so, I really wish I'd been putting more points into jump... For clarity, I have an Int of 7. That means I get 1 skill point per level, right?
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Sep 13, 2011 22:09
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Cabbit posted:Spending a feat on something you can buy with gold is a bad idea. Feats are way, way more scarce than gold-- don't take Improved Critical in lieu of a keen weapon. Counterpoint: take Improved Critical so you can rely on your favorite tactic, spend the +1 bonus on something else. pawsplay fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 22:21
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ZeeToo posted:Why Swash 6? There's nothing at that level. Swashbuckler isn't that great a class overall; I don't see that I would pick it over Fighter in most cases. I have to agree. The correct number of Swash levels are two (free feats), three (plus Int bonus to damage), or "lots." And if you go "lots," be advised that levels, oh, about 6 to 14 are going to be pretty soft compared to multiclass fighter-rogue. Best choices: Swash 3/Rogue X, Daring Outlaw Swash 3/Fig 4/whatever you feel like Swash 3/Fig 2/whatever you feel like Swash 2/Fig 2/rogue 2/funky prestige class
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Sep 13, 2011 22:25
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KiloVictorDongs posted:Whoa, am I reading Leap Attack right? With a normal power attack, I can drop up to 12 points to hit for an extra 24 points of damage (because I use greatswords). A 2 handed leap TRIPLES the extra damage from power attack--so I'd have an extra 72 (24*3) points of damage on a full power leap attack? If so, I really wish I'd been putting more points into jump... I believe it was errata'd to +100% of the power attack damage when using a two-hander, so -12, +48 (24 normal for two-hands, +100% of that). But yes, this is the basic principle behind charge builds. 1 level of Lion Totem Barbarian- you gain Pounce, and get to make full attacks on a charge. You also get Rage 1/day, which is a decent side-dish. You get Leap Attack, letting you increase the damage from power attack. You get Shocktrooper, allowing you to dump the power attack penalty to your AC instead of your to-hit bonus. You now hit like a truck, but with no loss in accuracy. You get a valorous weapon, allowing you to double your damage on a charge. There are some other fun tricks involving Tome of Battle and some other feats and items, but let's just focus on the basics here. Frenzied Berserker levels can let you get an even greater return on Power Attack investment, but you're also likely to simply grease your non-flying party members while you Frenzy, so it can be troublesome. So, let's say you've got a level 12 fighter/barbarian/other, and you get into a fight against something tough. You rage, charge, dump everything into power attack and absolutely tank your AC by -12, and you're doing something like +35/+35/+30/+25 for 4d6+120 (15-20/x2). Your defenses are garbage, but fortunately anything within melee range is a bunch of fine goo. Unfortunately, "anything within melee range" does not include the enemy wizard flying above your head, who then dominates you and turns you back around at your party. Fortunately, your wizard is also flying, and is safe from harm. You merely turn the party rogue into goo. You can also do decent stuff with a paladin mounted on a pegasus or something, since you can get quadruple or quintuple damage lance charges fairly easily (Spirited Charge, Valorous Weapon, Rhino's Rush Wand placed in Wand Holder in your lance), letting you one-shot almost anything of your CR assuming you hit. Of course, you have to have enough room for mounted combat, so lion totem barbarian is usually a safer bet. And yeah, your skill points are rubbish. What race are you? If you're human, you might still get 2 points per level even with an absymal Int (since I believe the bonus skill point is added after Int is factored in). LightWarden fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Sep 13, 2011 |
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Sep 13, 2011 22:27
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Rhjamiz posted:Additionally Fantasycraft hasn't been getting any love at all here, and I'm somewhat sad to see this is the case. It seems like a fun alternative, from what little I have played. I'm thinking of starting a FC mega-thread. Thoughts?
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Sep 13, 2011 22:28
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KiloVictorDongs posted:Whoa, am I reading Leap Attack right? With a normal power attack, I can drop up to 12 points to hit for an extra 24 points of damage (because I use greatswords). A 2 handed leap TRIPLES the extra damage from power attack--so I'd have an extra 72 (24*3) points of damage on a full power leap attack? If so, I really wish I'd been putting more points into jump... Yeah, I think Leap Attack is what I was confusing with Spring Attack, earlier. Multipliers to charge damage is one of the best damage outputs for a weapon fighter. It's been too long since I reviewed how multipliers stack, but it sure looks like that would add 72 points to the attack there. And, yes, you always get at least one skill point per level barring an explicit rule otherwise.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:31
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LightWarden posted:
Yeah, I'm a Human. For some reason I thought that the bonus skill point only applied at the first level.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:33
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pawsplay posted:Counterpoint: take Improved Critical so you can rely on your favorite tactic, spend the +1 bonus on something else. But thing is, once you have Greater Magic Weapon, all you need is a +1 weapon with up to +9 of various bonuses. You don't even need to prepare it more than once per day, just take an Archmage with the Arcane Reach special ability, then get a metamagic rod of lesser spell chaining so you can cover a dozen or more weapons with one casting. Keen/Impacting become pretty reasonable enhancements at that point, since it's a +1 bonus of up to nine options. pawsplay posted:I have to agree. The correct number of Swash levels are two (free feats), three (plus Int bonus to damage), or "lots." And if you go "lots," be advised that levels, oh, about 6 to 14 are going to be pretty soft compared to multiclass fighter-rogue. Why would you take more than a few levels of rogue if you're going Daring Outlaw? Swashbuckler gets you D10 HD and full BAB, and enough skill points to cover your rogue essentials, especially if you've got Able Learner (otherwise, simply splash on the vital rogue skills when you take a level of rogue now and then). Taking levels of rogue as a Daring Outlaw means you're a rogue with some dodge and reflex bonuses, while taking levels of Swashbuckler as a Daring Outlaw means you're a swashbuckler with full BAB and full sneak attack.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:37
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LightWarden posted:Why would you take more than a few levels of rogue if you're going Daring Outlaw? Because I'll be level 17 before I ever see anything resembling a useful class feature again. I'd rather have uncanny dodge and eventually a talent or two.
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Sep 13, 2011 22:52
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pawsplay posted:I have to agree. The correct number of Swash levels are two (free feats), three (plus Int bonus to damage), or "lots." And if you go "lots," be advised that levels, oh, about 6 to 14 are going to be pretty soft compared to multiclass fighter-rogue. I think we have our winner!
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Sep 14, 2011 01:51
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Leap attack just adds another iteration of multiplier to the power attack with a two-handed weapon--so if you power attack for 5 when you're leap attacking with a two-handed weapon, you are getting a return of +15 damage. Still pretty swanky, just not quite as batshit nuts. If you're going to go for barbarian pounce you might as well go in for a penny in for a pound and take the Whirling Frenzy variant which gives you another attack at your full base attack but slaps -2 on your attacks when raging--then when you pounce you get -another- swing of damage. For even more shenanigans, a half-orc can take the feat Headlong Rush which lets you DOUBLE the damage straight-up in exchange for provoking attacks of opportunity from everyone (including your target) along the line of a charge.
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Sep 14, 2011 16:11
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The errata for Complete Adventurer says "if you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance when you jump and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten the target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat." This is clarified in the errata for Complete Warrior, which says "Supreme Power Attack: A 10th level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each -1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls." So if you power attack leap with a two-handed weapon for -5, you get +20. If you're also a 10th level Frenzied Berserker, you get +30. If you have a valorous weapon, the damage is doubled, etc.
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Sep 14, 2011 19:19
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Huh. When I'd looked it up before I got the above determination. Does that really apply to every hit in a charging leaping power attacking pounce, though?
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Sep 14, 2011 19:50
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If something about Leaping Attack seems insane, that usually means you are understanding it correctly.
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Sep 14, 2011 21:16
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GaistHeidegger posted:Huh. When I'd looked it up before I got the above determination. Does that really apply to every hit in a charging leaping power attacking pounce, though? Maybe, maybe not. Charge posted:Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Pounce posted:When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. The key word here is "follow." Is it following the movement and taking the place of the melee attack, or is it following the charge itself and is thus not a charge? Many people run it as the pounce counts all parts of the attack as part of the charge, though it could be read as you simply get a single charge attack with all the bonuses for Valorous Weapons and the like, followed by a full-attack. Of course, if you want ill-defined abilities rife with potential for abuse, look no further than 3e's spell system. I truly appreciate 4e's attempts to clarify its language when it comes to powers and abilities.
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Sep 14, 2011 21:39
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There is now a Fantasy Craft mega-thread. here.
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Sep 22, 2011 20:12
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So it would look my friends are possibly starting a D&D group. None of us I believe have too much experience (I'm totally blank in RPGs excecpt for the playing of video games). The guy who's getting it together says we should some version of 3 since that's better [according to him] and what his rule books are. Anyway, anything I should know beforehand? I'm pushing for more than just paper since miniatures of some sort seem much cooler. The guy who's running it has a bunch of Heroscape sets and I found rules using the hex terrain it uses.
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Sep 23, 2011 02:58
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Evil Vin posted:Anyway, anything I should know beforehand? If you're doing more than a one-shot, have a plan for your character. A lot of really good feats and prestige classes have requirements that you will want to have taken ASAP so you can join the PrC/take the feat at your earliest. Detect Magic and Prestidigitation are the best spells. Heward's Handy Haversack will never be not useful. Never go anywhere without 50ft of rope, a 10ft pole, and a sack of flour.
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Sep 23, 2011 03:43
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Yawgmoth posted:Being a spellcaster is more complicated, but gives you a lot more options and you grow exponentially in power as you level. You can be a good melee/physical only character, but it's tough. While choosing to be a cleric, druid, or wizard will allow you to absolutely steamroll everything ever except for GM fiat (and sometimes even that), it is worth it to get a feel for the other people who are going to be in your group and play your character accordingly. If no one in the group is really familiar with 3.X and none of them are really the power gamer type, you might come off as "that min-maxing rear end in a top hat" just by picking one of the three above classes. It might be worth it to come up with a group plan for what kind of adventurers you want to be so that everyone can know upfront that casters are going to run the show at the higher levels unless their players make a gentleman's agreement to basically handcuff themselves.
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Sep 23, 2011 04:26
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Evil Vin posted:So it would look my friends are possibly starting a D&D group. None of us I believe have too much experience (I'm totally blank in RPGs excecpt for the playing of video games). The guy who's getting it together says we should some version of 3 since that's better [according to him] and what his rule books are. 4e is by far the superior game for combat balance at the very least. 3E is about spellcasters. A standard spellcaster who uses only one book to build from is better and far, far more versatile than any warrior character. Spellcasters get all of the options and their level curve is basically the road to godhood. Early on they are comically vulnerable but this is less and less of a problem as they advance. You can make a playable warrior but it's much harder to do, and the character will lack versatility in the extreme (probably relying on the same trick/tactic in every battle). Really the only thing you lose by playing caster is the ability to just sit down and play. As a caster you will be required to learn more, keep track of more, and you will probably have a handbook in your hand at all times. Meanwhile there is generally a laundry list of things 4E does better than 3E. For starters, 4E is designed around using miniatures. 4E throws off experienced players because the design philosophy is reminiscent of how video games balance things in combat. For instance, 4E defenders each basically have a way of generating threat in order to control the battlefield. People take umbrage at the accusation that 4E is like a video game, but really the incorporation of threat mechanics, just as one example, has been needed for some time in D&D, and it's really the first edition of D&D where in combat, a warrior is as fun to play as a caster. quote:It might be worth it to come up with a group plan for what kind of adventurers you want to be so that everyone can know upfront that casters are going to run the show at the higher levels unless their players make a gentleman's agreement to basically handcuff themselves. The only way you can handcuff a 3E caster is to have them stop leveling in caster.
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Sep 23, 2011 04:43
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Evil Vin posted:So it would look my friends are possibly starting a D&D group. None of us I believe have too much experience (I'm totally blank in RPGs excecpt for the playing of video games). The guy who's getting it together says we should some version of 3 since that's better [according to him] and what his rule books are. I think it might be easier to help you if I knew more about the game your GM wants to run. You say he prefers 3e. There are many reasons for doing so, and those reasons could definitely impact how you plan characters and so forth. If he himself is a powergamer, the advice given above about casters is pretty helpful. If he likes coming up with interesting challenges, "balanced" or no, that advice could turn out to be useless, as casters are trivial to neutralize if the GM is inclined to do so.
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Sep 23, 2011 05:08
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:The only way you can handcuff a 3E caster is to have them stop leveling in caster. That's not true. Blaster casters are fine. Things like Warmage etc.
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Sep 23, 2011 05:31
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Karandras posted:That's not true. Blaster casters are fine. Things like Warmage etc. This is still better than a warrior, especially if it's a psionic blaster.
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Sep 23, 2011 05:33
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:People take umbrage at the accusation that 4E is like a video game That said, I disagree that you can't handcuff a caster. For instance, handcuffing them means no somatic components.  But seriously, a decent DM can screw up a caster in a ton of ways if need be. I personally prefer casters who do things that are less combat focused, like illusionists and necromancers (although necromancers are ridiculous combatants if you skew yourself that way).
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Sep 23, 2011 05:46
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Yawgmoth posted:I nominate this for Biggest Understatement of the Decade, especially on these forums. Nothing will make someone who prefers 4e rage harder and faster than pointing out any of of the similarities between 4e and a video game. Which is not to say that 4e's similarities to video game mechanics is a bad thing; different strokes and all. Pretty much any caster who targets saving throws with his combat repertoire will excel. Even then, spells get exponentially more powerful with level, and that's before you get spells that are too powerful for their level involved.
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Sep 23, 2011 05:57
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Thanks for the comments of 4e vs 3e I'll bring this up to my friend. I apologize in advance for the next question, so if casters are way overpowered is viable just have the whole group of people play casters or will somebody have to play a lame fighter to be able to defend against some silly weakness they all have?pawsplay posted:I think it might be easier to help you if I knew more about the game your GM wants to run. You say he prefers 3e. There are many reasons for doing so, and those reasons could definitely impact how you plan characters and so forth. If he himself is a powergamer, the advice given above about casters is pretty helpful. If he likes coming up with interesting challenges, "balanced" or no, that advice could turn out to be useless, as casters are trivial to neutralize if the GM is inclined to do so. I know nothing other than my friend wants a group together go play. I'm not sure even who is GM at the moment for our games since I believe my friends still figuring poo poo out.
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Sep 23, 2011 06:03
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