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chrisf posted:What if, instead of delayed reveal, each loyalty card has something that helps the humans if revealed pre-sleeper? Things like "If you reveal or are executed before the sleeper phase, the fleet gains +1 to each resource" "the fleet gains 3 jump prep" "each human player may draw (2-3?) cards" "the fleet gains a nuke and a fuel" "the next (2-3?) crisis cards with a skillcheck have the check difficulty reduced by 10" and more along those lines? I like this idea a lot, especially after the last game I ran.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 18:58 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:40 |
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I like it too. I've edited my post: instead of being unable to reveal early, I've added an Early Reveal Consequence to every covert ability. The numbers feel about right, but may need tweaking.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:19 |
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Still think plant evidence is too weak.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:25 |
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Amnistar posted:Still think plant evidence is too weak. Well, you can do fun stuff with switching around the 0-strength cards, but yeah you're still probably right. Solutions? I originally didn't like the idea of being able to do it every turn but limiting it to the current player's skillset, but now that I think about it more, that could be cool and interesting. What if the current player is a revealed Cylon?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:30 |
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Perhaps any deck but TRE, just because a guaranteed By Your Command would terrible. It also makes some flavor sense since it is much easier to sabotage during overt cylon attacks or actions The early reveal for wasted effort is pretty brutal, but it's also probably the most powerful of the abilities and might encourage them to save it only for the more important rolls. MetricUnit fucked around with this message at Apr 11, 2012 around 19:41 |
| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:34 |
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Another option would be to let them play their treachery and the guarantee that one of destiny's cards is a lower point valued card from within their draw. i.e. I'm playing Baltaar and spike the check with a ENG 5- Calculations, you gurantee that one of the two destiny cards is a LEA 1 - XO so the spike is less effective, but can be attributed to destiny.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:40 |
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MetricUnit posted:Perhaps any deck but TRE, just because a guaranteed By Your Command would terrible. It also makes some flavor sense since it is much easier to sabotage during overt cylon attacks or actions This also makes Ellen kind of hilarious, since she actually has TRE in her skillset. I think I like that. Ability changed, post edited.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:41 |
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I think flipping type is much better - people are trying to make things more complicated than they need be. The one thing I would suggest on Early Reveal is that if a Cylon is revealed due to execution, the early reveal doesn't occur - and some of those effects (Skill check, +1 die rolls) are far far far better than others. I would suggest changing die rolls to end in sleeper phase, and instead of '-10 to checks' make it 'The next two skill checks play all cards face up, including Destiny' - basically team human gets 2 super InvComms in a row.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:43 |
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It makes Ellen's drawback even funnier, though that's obviously a pretty specific combination of abilities
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:44 |
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Its a bit of tracking, but what about on their turn they get a secret token that they can spend secretly during a skillcheck to mini-leoben and swap a card in their hand with the top destiny deck card blind? Dex, I think the early reveal should apply upon execution since it means the cylon wasn't playing deep cover enough and it provides more paranoia because the humans want to airlock a suspected cylon early to get the sweet bonuses which should contribute to the paranoia++ intent of the suggestions.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:49 |
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Dexanth posted:I think flipping type is much better - people are trying to make things more complicated than they need be. That doesn't feel right. It would mean that in some cases, a Cylon who wanted to reveal early and do overt nasty stuff on the Cylon board might be better off executing himself than revealing. quote:and some of those effects (Skill check, +1 die rolls) are far far far better than others. Not deliberate, they're meant to be roughly balanced. Is a +1 to all die rolls really that powerful? quote:I would suggest changing die rolls to end in sleeper phase, and instead of '-10 to checks' make it 'The next two skill checks play all cards face up, including Destiny' - basically team human gets 2 super InvComms in a row. These feel a little toothless to me, but I could be wrong. Ashenai fucked around with this message at Apr 11, 2012 around 19:53 |
| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:50 |
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Ashenai posted:quote: What about 'the next two crisis card skillchecks, reveal top two cards of the destiny deck, reduce the check difficulty by their value, and discard them instead of adding them to the skillcheck'?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:53 |
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+1 rolls means that with strat planning you can not fail scouts/nuke, with calculations you can't fail 4+ rolls and only fail FTL on a 1/2.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:54 |
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chrisf posted:What about 'the next two crisis card skillchecks, reveal top two cards of the destiny deck, reduce the check difficulty by their value, and discard them instead of adding them to the skillcheck'? That seems like a bunch of extra busywork for really a very similar effect, though. If it's too powerful, maybe just make it -6 instead of -10?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:56 |
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The die roll thing is really good, especially of it applies to things like scout for fuel/nukes/FTL. Granted that is (possibly) balanced by said cylon getting a guaranteed FTL at -3 pop or making sure to fail crisis rolls for resources/burning quorum cards like speeches to appear helpful
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 19:58 |
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Ashenai posted:That seems like a bunch of extra busywork for really a very similar effect, though. If it's too powerful, maybe just make it -6 instead of -10? Shrug, it's kind of like a randomly good/bad jury rig + guts and initiative. There isn't any busywork above what's already normally done with the destiny deck, just in a different order and different result. For the +1 rolls thing, that seems too good for a 'rest of the game' effect. What about something that resets pursuit track and moves cylon ships back to the cylon fleet board?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:02 |
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chrisf posted:Shrug, it's kind of like a randomly good/bad jury rig + guts and initiative. There isn't any busywork above what's already normally done with the destiny deck, just in a different order and different result. I guess you're right. I think my problem is more that it's a consequence that removes some of the secrecy from the game, which might make it less fun. I feel like consequences should hurt cylons by overtly benefiting the humans, not by making the remaining cylons unable to do their thing. quote:For the +1 rolls thing, that seems too good for a 'rest of the game' effect. What about something that resets pursuit track and moves cylon ships back to the cylon fleet board? I considered something like that, but if the Cylon times it correctly, that might end up not actually doing anything. Early reveal consequences should always be bad for the toasters.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:06 |
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Here's the thing : Much of the game as-is is balanced around Cylons not playing hugely pro-human. Most of the deep cover effects are useful, but only false evidence is going to aid a toaster in actively sabotaging - and, quite frankly, that may not protect them. In our Pony game for example I got busted on that check not for what I played, but for what I couldn't have played. Penalizing them for revealing early is going to fly in the face of that, given they already lose access to their 'Cover' ability.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:09 |
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It could last for the current + next destination cycle so it hurts but doesn't turn things into easy mode for the humans
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:10 |
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If anybody cares, printerstudio.com has oversized playing card printing available (5.75"x3.5"), which is pretty perfect for character cards. I'm going to ditch the playing card size layout and do up a full-size one using the card original graphics where possible.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:12 |
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Like, to elaborate : People don't really use executions. They used to be popular as a loyalty check but that fell away when Exodus came out. Specifically : Covert Channel - Useful in some sense for IDing each other, but really limited to that. Potentially near useless if there is only one cylon pre-sleeper, or when the others reveal post-sleeper. Take Advantage - Executions are rare. This isn't liable to come into play very often barring something like a toaster Political Prowess execution. Plant Evidence - This is good, though it still runs the risk of being outed by 'I know what I played, therefore player B has to be a toaster' scenario. Sabotage thus still is very risky. Protest Innocence - It's...so-so. Hard to tell without seeing in action, but my gut calls it weaker. Wasted Effort - This one is good. It's the one I think best captures the 'Feel' of the idea. As to why cylons won't execute themselves to avoid the consequence : Executing themselves means no hand, no reveal, and no SCC. If they want to give all that up to blow themselves out the airlock, there's no reason to also give the humans a massive bonus.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:15 |
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Dexanth posted:Here's the thing : Much of the game as-is is balanced around Cylons not playing hugely pro-human. Well, sure, but the whole point of this variant would be to make pro-human play a more attractive and doable option. That was my original design goal, anyway. Dexanth posted:Like, to elaborate : People don't really use executions. They used to be popular as a loyalty check but that fell away when Exodus came out. Yeah, because figuring out who is a Cylon and who isn't is usually not that critical in the game: it's not worth blowing a ton of resources on. Cylons usually reveal themselves pretty quick, and that's that. If this variant succeeds in what it sets out to do (motivate Cylons to stay hidden,) then executions would naturally become a much more attractive option, both because the loyalty confirmation becomes more valuable and because executing a toaster cuts them off from their sweet covert abilities. As for the specifics: I'm open to suggestions! I don't want to make the covert abilities too powerful: they should be a cool option for the Cylons to use, but the entire game shouldn't revolve around them. I'm actually a little uncomfortable with Wasted Effort's power level.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:28 |
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Wasted Effort seems like the optimal power level for a hidden cylon's ability.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:31 |
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I actually like execution stopping the bonus because it makes brigging the cylons a lot more attractive because they have to decide between being a lame duck until sleeper or giving the humans a big bonus. It also makes it harder to tell if you've accidentally brigged a human or if they are avoiding their reveal bonus and added paranoia is always a plus. Planted evidence could also be beefed up by letting you force destiny to be negative during your own turn. Take advantage could be beefed up to also include brigging of any player (except the cylon himself for bonus paranoia potential) or possibly cause all human players to discard two cards and draw two tre after a brig and save the resource loss for airlocking Cylon communication does seem pretty weak. Perhaps you could make it allow you to force another human to become a cylon pre-sleeper if none are present?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:31 |
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Planted Evidence doesn't let you hurt the humans as is. Allowing you to gurantee that destiny is negative without adjusting point values could be one way of making it always hurt. Make that only usable on their turn and it becomes added paranoia. Did destiny really just draw against us, or is it the cylon using his power? Take Advantage seems okay if we're going to allow airlocking to trigger the reveal penalty since it would be more likely for humans to airlock people. Cylon Communication should give you a list of anyone who is a cylon at the start of the game and perhaps if there is no other cylon allow the cylon player to select who will turn into a cylon post sleeper?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:38 |
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I mentioned it before, but my suggestion for penalizing an early reveal was weakening the cylon locations. Like instead of "activate all cylon ships of one type" Cylon Fleet could be "Activate up to 4 raiders, one basestar, or 2 heavy raiders or centurions". As for keeping hidden, I'm with Dexanth; PbP allows far better analysis of skill checks than live play; my suggestion would be posting totals but not individual cards, IE: "POL/LEA = 9 6 cards played POL 4 LEA 5 TRE 2 9-2 = 7, FAIL By Your Command found in skill check!" Etc. You can still analyze who might have sabotaged a check, but it's much harder to count cards and figure out exactly who played what, like I did to Dexanth in our game. So basically more like a live game would be, unless you have an eidetic memory. Bremen fucked around with this message at Apr 11, 2012 around 20:47 |
| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:40 |
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Ashenai posted:Yeah, because figuring out who is a Cylon and who isn't is usually not that critical in the game: it's not worth blowing a ton of resources on. Cylons usually reveal themselves pretty quick, and that's that. The thing is you have cause and effect backwards. Figuring out whose a Cylon isn't critical because when Cylons sabotage covertly it's easy to flush them out. Therefore Cylons either A. Play cover to try to go nova, or B. Reveal at the first opportunity. Team human doesn't really get an additional incentive to toaster hunt, because now all that changes is all the Cylons will be looking for a chance to Nova without revealing. Until then they play pro-human and that suits the humans just fine because a Cylon playing pro-human helps them more than it hurts.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:44 |
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Oh yes, one other thing to factor in : You should be careful about anything that manipulates cards because trying to do things DeckManager doesn't support ups the amount of time you need to spend modding very fast.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:46 |
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Dexanth posted:Oh yes, one other thing to factor in : You should be careful about anything that manipulates cards because trying to do things DeckManager doesn't support ups the amount of time you need to spend modding very fast. Adjusting destiny to negative colors wouldn't be difficult, you just swap them around, after the fact if they're not negative.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:47 |
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Amnistar posted:Adjusting destiny to negative colors wouldn't be difficult, you just swap them around, after the fact if they're not negative. Plant Evidence is easy enough to do as long as you don't have to deal with Adama's OPG, yea. I suppose that way would work - draw DD, then randomize the colors to something negative with same skill values.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:54 |
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Okay this is more interest/input than I can deal with right now; I need to sleep on some of this stuff. Dexanth: The entire goal (as I see it) is to make it possible for Cylons to play covertly and still damage Team Human. The abilities should support continued subtle sabotage instead of a soft-reveal nova turn, if possible. Successfully outing Cylons should be a major goal for humans, and being outed as a Cylon should be something the toasters badly want to avoid. Bremen: I agree, but I wanted to modify just one aspect of the game without redesigning the boards and such. I like your skillcheck idea, though, I might end up using that. Amnistar et al.: If Wasted Effort seems like the right power level, then the other abilities could probably use slight buffs. Also, the intent of Plant Evidence is to divert suspicion onto other players: modifying Destiny cards seems like it might not work so well for that purpose. I'll be reading any other input but probably not responding to them until tomorrow: this is moving too fast for me to keep up at the moment! 
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:54 |
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Minor suggestion, but given what it does I'd probably rename "Protest Innocence" to "Blackmail material" Edit: Also you just know someone's going to get that and then get falsely accused by a loyalty testing cylon :P
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:56 |
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You can just keep drawing destiny until you get two negative cards. You could even make it so you could opt to soft sabotage and only guarantee one negative card if you're worried about drawing too much attention
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 20:58 |
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Dexanth posted:Oh yes, one other thing to factor in : You should be careful about anything that manipulates cards because trying to do things DeckManager doesn't support ups the amount of time you need to spend modding very fast. Yes, I considered this: I think both my card-manipulation abilities (Plant Evidence and Protest Innocence) are things that don't need much mod effort. All the mod has to do is give doctored information in the skill check update: nothing weird needs to happen to the actual cards. William Adama's OPG can make things a tiny bit weird, but, well, it's an OPG.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:01 |
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I think if we want to encourage people to remain unrevealed then we need to create situations where a cylon can cause damage without it being directly tracable to them. Thoughts on ways to do this: -Failing Dice Rolls (was it luck or did you adjust that roll?) -Spiking skill checks in a way that can't be traced to the player that spiked them. Putting suspicion on another player would make it more confusing but even better would be if you could spike checks in some way without it being possible to trace it to you based on what you could play/did play. Adjusting destiny deck to be negative seems easy, alternatively you draw 1 "Sabotage" card each turn in addition to your normal draw, this card can come from any color and you can play it into any check secretly, limit 1 sabotage card per check and you start with like 3 sabotage cards at the start of the game. It's a limited pool of resources that let you tank checks without people realizing it's your doing the work. -Buffing Cylon attack roles. Similiar to auto-failing your own rolls you can gurantee success on cylon roles during your turn to ensure bad things happen. This would have to be limited somehow, but it seems like a good option. -Communication with other non-active cylons. This seems like it could work in that you get this role and are given the names of other cylons are allowed to communicate with them outside of the game to talk about strategy, etc. The ability for two cylons working together is huge, but I think it would lean towards a massive nova reveal more than remaining hidden. -No Jump Prep. Same as the die roll ones, you don't get crisis with jump prep on your turn.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:07 |
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The ability still should probably be tied to you in some way, you shouldn't be able to use it without some reservations. Granted it's somewhat hard to do that with Take Advantage, but you might get real suspicious of anyone who supports a brigging. I do like the idea of giving cylon attack rolls on your turn a hidden bonus, auto success might be a bit much though, maybe just a +1, even a +2 might be too powerful.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:15 |
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limited number successes would probably work better, 2 rolls get a +2 bonus, or some such. The hidden card could only be used on your turn and you can use it to take the place of destiny perhaps? You can select what 2 colors destiny comes from on your turn rather than just making it positive.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:23 |
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+1 or +2 are probably a bad idea, or it would be pretty suspicious when the Cylons roll a 9. Better do what the similar abilities do, and instead of 1d8 make it 1d6+2 or something. Also, just to remind everyone, the Cylons already seem to win more often than they lose. The point isn't to buff cylons, but rather give them the tools to stay unrevealed while not actually making them stronger. Hence my suggestion to nerf Cylon locations, which encourages them to stay unrevealed while not giving them an advantage.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:26 |
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Bremen posted:+1 or +2 are probably a bad idea, or it would be pretty suspicious when the Cylons roll a 9. we're not trying to resolve cylon strength with this though. The reason cylons reveal immediately isn't just because the cylon locations are powerful, it's because you can't do anything as a cylon to cause problems unless it's right before your turn and then you reveal, or knowing you're going to get caught. A cylon will either slow play it as admiral/president, or he will reveal at the first opportunity. Anything else is just bad play as a cylon. Giving them more options while unrevealed and penalizing them for revealing should make them play revealed longer, which even with these powers is still weaker than them being on the cylon fleet.
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:29 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:40 |
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Why is it important that cylons remain hidden for extended periods of time?
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| # ? Apr 11, 2012 21:32 |
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