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Solice Kirsk posted:[spoilers]He will totally have the Jets seem like they are going to lose the Super Bowl, but then they will win[/spoilers] So it will still be fantasy. 
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Jul 6, 2011 03:42
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That's a good way of looking at it. Expanding a bit further, the book boils down to basically "following" three girls: Dany, Sansa, and Arya. I liked AFfC when I reread it a month or so ago. Even Brienne's chapters were decent; there are so many neat little hints of other things going on.
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Jul 6, 2011 22:57
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Ixian posted:The crappy thing is that, because of the larger story it's wrapped in, it's easy to miss the real point of her chapters, which is to show the effect of the wars on the regular people of Westeros. Looked at in that light, it is a pretty interesting story that does (I think, anyway) add to the series as a whole. You just have to trudge through a lot of seemingly pointless crap to get to it. This, along with the little glimpses of other major characters, is why I still enjoy the Brienne chapters even though I don't particularly like Brienne.
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Jul 7, 2011 00:09
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meanolmrcloud posted:Briennes chapters, the more i think about them, are pretty boring and extremely long but serve a good purpose and, I can't believe it hasn't been brought up, have a brutal payoff. There are lots of points of dread in the book, but when Brienne was getting her face chewed off i just felt plain bad. poo poo was rough. I do like how the plot about the warrior maiden going to rescue the princess ends with a nasty brawl in the mud. That was fun trope subversion.
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Jul 7, 2011 18:18
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Aurubin posted:I wonder what his motivation for making such comically evil villians like the Boltons was? He's always about sympathetic portrayals and such, and here he presents Sauron level baddies. I think the Boltons will eventually get their comeuppance in the future. Maybe it's an aesop on how you can't just do things for the evulz and expect to rule effectively. In the grand scheme of things, the Boltons are a minor player, and it's not the first time he's written downright terrible villains. The Boltons don't seem anymore crazy than the Bloody Mummers. And in their way, characters like these help make the more important villains more sympathetic. Sure the Lannisters are shits, but the Boltons are real shits.
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Jul 10, 2011 08:08
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Well, that's not entirely true. Sauron did have a plan: rule over a totally evil world. But it's a shallow plan based on circular logic: why does Sauron want to rule the world? Because he is evil. Why is he evil? Because he wants to rule the world. But Sauron is also a supernatural being who is an embodiment of pure evil, so his shallowness is somewhat forgivable. And I'm not sure their ambitions make a natural motivation for just how evil the Boltons are. The kinds of evil pure ambition leads to are Tywin or Cersei kinds of evil. Cutting a dude's wingwang off and forcing him to go down on the teenager you're about to rape has nothing to do with territorial or political ambitions; it's just being a sadistic douche. But ultimately, the Boltons are such minor players that their one dimensional nature can be forgiven, for they only exist to make other douches look less douchey. E: More specifically, it seems like the Boltons exist to subvert your feelings regarding Theon. Theon is an rear end in a top hat who deserves to get his poo poo kicked in for loving over the Starks, but the treatment he receives is just horrific. So while you want him to get his comeuppance, you don't want him to get that. At the same time, his suffering makes him more sympathetic, so you begin to forgive his earlier shittiness like you forgave Jamie's. Theon is actually a pretty good parallel of Jamie in that regard; they both had to lose (what was in their minds) their most important "extremity" on their path to redemption. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jul 10, 2011 |
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Jul 10, 2011 08:37
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Contra Calculus posted:I don't think the Boltons are "terrible villains," as you say. Oh, I didn't mean that Boltons were poorly written or bad for the story. I meant that the Boltons are downright awful human beings, much like the Bloody Mummers. quote:So you're saying you never read Foucault's Pendulum. You just go gently caress yourself and die.
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Jul 10, 2011 22:50
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Hey, I picked it up because the back copy made it sound awesome. Some guys at a publishing house start running conspiracy theories through a computer to create the ultimate conspiracy, as a joke, and wind up stumbling onto the real deal? That sounds awesome! Fixed that. I enjoyed all that stuff, felt it added a great deal of depth to the protagonists, and saw it all as an integral part of the larger plot. As for the books at hand, I enjoy the Dany chapters. It's through those that we get to see the wider world beyond Westeros. I enjoy the "exotic" cultures a lot, especially in light of how generically European most of Westeros is.
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Jul 11, 2011 02:57
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I'm going to read the Dany chapters with relish because this is a goddamn fantasy series and it's about goddamn time we get to see some dragons loving poo poo up bigtime.
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Jul 12, 2011 03:53
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uncle jimbo posted:I have some bad news drat it! Hahaha
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Jul 12, 2011 05:15
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Aurubin posted:Dormant virus waiting for a suitable carrier? Dunno. In unrelated news, was the ending of War of the Worlds revolutionary for its time or did HG Wells not know how to end it? And suddenly...GERMS! THE END From a few pages back and a tangent, but the answer to your question regarding War of the Worlds is: it's a metaphor for imperialism. The aliens are the British army, the humans are the indigenous people, and the germs are the cholera and dysentery that wreak havoc upon the foreign invaders. On topic, I finished the book a few days ago and enjoyed it a lot. "Words are wind" was obnoxious as was the GRRM's continued insistence on listing every dish at every meal, but otherwise, I liked pretty much everything. Tyrion's travelogue down the Rhoyne was the kind of world building fluff that I love in fantasy. Watching him turn those mercs was classic. Dany being dumb is to be expected, and girl was too mary-sue to learn her lessons without hitting rock-bottom first. And I liked what little dragon action we got. I think the Mereen plot moved forward very well for what is basically a set-up book for the last act. poo poo is ready to blow there, with Tyrion and his mercs, Jorah and his forces, Victarion and his fleet, and Dany and her dragon plus possible new horde. In a book where every plot ends on a cliff hanger, that's as much as I expected to happen. I'm totally convinced that Jon is AA now. I like that he has vision and is reasonably competent, albeit a bit naive, but All in all, I thought it was a pretty good book. GRRM's descriptive prose is still clunky, and he still includes excessive incidental details, but the plot continues to twist, the characters continue to be interesting, and the world continues to be fantastic.
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Jul 19, 2011 22:59
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Well, we've known for quite some time that the Maesters are up to their own business. There have been hints in previous books of some anti-magic/pro-(pseudo)science agenda. But making it so clear could hint that the Maesters are involved. I, however, tend to think it's intended to remind you of the intrigue that's shaping up down in Oldtown. It could be Ramsay. He could be misinformed by Northmen he still thinks are loyal to him. Or he could just be holed up in Winterfell, surrounded by a hostile force, and gambling on a way out. It's mentioned quite a few times that even in its present condition, you don't need a lot of men to hold Winterfell against a large force. Heck, maybe Roose is behind it. Dude is clearly a schemer, and while I can't think of a reason for him to pretend he's Ramsay, I wouldn't put it past him to come up with one.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:31
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Maybe Mance wants to lure Jon into a fight and kill him (so now he has something in common with the Dornishmen-- he's too late); he's already proven that he can beat Jon's rear end in a fight. I think we tend to assume Mance is a stand-up guy because all the Wildlings look up to him, and Jon respects and even admires him. But Mance got to be King by breaking oaths and being a ruthless badass. He's also not above scheming and screwing over allies, as demonstrated by his working with Mel. Then again, I don't know what Mance's plan could be for after Jon is dead. He's also proven himself to be forward-thinking and a survivor. He wouldn't set up a fight with Jon in front of Stannis's host if he wasn't sure he could walk away. He might be banking on Jon coming with Wildlings, but even if Jon brings a force, he's already seen Stannis's knights slaughter a Wildling army. Another problem with this theory is that even if Jon did answer the letter and travel to Winterfell (presuming he didn't get stabbed or he decides to go after he comes back from being stabbed), why would he agree to a duel with Mance? What would be the point of dueling him? And yeah, I agree about Dany. Mereen is about to explode.
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Jul 19, 2011 23:48
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Brannock posted:Et tu, Bowen? Then let the Wall fall! Marsh is gonna have nightmares up until the point where Pip and Rickon team up to defeat him in
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Jul 20, 2011 02:19
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Maybe his nuts were cut off. He's still unmanned by his inability to procreate (pretty important thing for anyone with territorial ambitions), and he'd still be ashamed of people seeing what happened to him, but he could still get stimulated and do the deed.quote:He was not clearly dead or alive. It seemed to me that while cut was bloody enough for him to bleed out, it wasn't immediately deadly, and his guards were able to pull him back and probably save him.
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Jul 20, 2011 03:00
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Jon is basically like Sturm from Dragonlance. He understands the true purpose of the order better than those around him. It's made clear in the part where he recites the oath, notes that it says nothing about the Wildlings, and points out that they are men and thus part of the kingdom that should be protected. Alternately, he's just equivocating at that point to justify his actions.
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Jul 20, 2011 06:48
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Neurosis posted:With the wights it moves from equivocation to justification. Yeah, I agree. But to the guys who've spent their lives fighting Wildlings, it just sounds like the equivocations of some upstart kid. If it had been Benjen or Halfhand or Mormont saying that, they might have grumbled, but they would have seen the wisdom. They'll pay for their lack of vision though. Tormund and Wun Wun are gonna gently caress up some stewards for jumping their boy. Stannis (who is so still alive and chilling with all his new Northmen allies) won't be happy either.
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Jul 20, 2011 08:04
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Linguica posted:"The galleys Oledo and Old Mother’s Son had been driven onto the rocks of Skagos, the isle of unicorns and cannibals where even the Blind Bastard had feared to land." GRRM made a big deal about the unicorn helm given as part of the tax on the Wildlings, so I'm pretty sure Davos is going to see one on Skagos. Seeing a unicorn would be a really meaningful experience for the old dude. Also, I'm really glad we finally got to see Martin's elves, and I'm glad they weren't just elves. The dappled skin, cat's eyes, and three fingered hands made the Children of the Forest very alien and inhuman, a nice change from just being some lithe people with pointy ears.
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Jul 20, 2011 08:46
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Mince Pieface posted:In no way is any of this inconsistent with what she's previously done. I agree. Before Mereen, Dany basically bumblefucks her way from one miraculous success to another, mainly thanks to her dragons. She's a sixteen year old girl who needs to learn that she can't have everything her way and her dragons aren't going to save her from all her troubles (ironically, it looks like they'll end up saving her from this problem as well). Mereen is a learning experience for her. She's never had to lead people who didn't worship her as their savior/true queen. Of course, she's going to make heaps of mistakes. Thankfully, she still has dragons, loyal followers, and some new arrivals who'll probably throw their lots in with hers, so she'll have a chance of surviving and learning from those mistakes.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:07
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Thoguh posted:I feel like he does subtle changes in spelling every once in a while just to remind us that this is another world, and not everything is the same. See, I don't like this stuff. When I read some fantasy dude say something in English, I assume it's a "translation" of whatever they're "really" saying, so little spelling irregularities that don't even change the pronunciation of the root word just strike me as dumb and jar me out of the world. It's like "frak" and "frell" and other scifi words for "gently caress", except Martin doesn't need to make up fake words to pass the censors like the BSG creators did.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:59
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Scoobi posted:But its not even a made up word It's an archaic spelling in a book that otherwise uses thoroughly modern English. It stands out like a sore thumb and doesn't add a thing to the narrative. In that way, it's not so different than fake gently caress words.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:11
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lapse posted:Yeah but if you're going with that theory, then puns shouldn't really work, songs shouldn't always rhyme, etc. But as long as it's all in regular-rear end modern English, I can ignore that and maintain the illusion. When the author starts spelling things differently for no real reason, it jars me out of that illusion. quote:I understand your point of view there (especially the fake swear words part). But for me, the little stuff like small changes to words is just another reminder that this isn't Earth, and the normal rules don't apply. So I feel like it makes it less jarring when stuff like dragons or the Others show up, because we are constantly being reminded that this another reality that, while like our own, is not exactly the same. Lots of authors try this and fail, but GRRM does a good job in dropping these little reminders without overdoing it. Since it's a fantasy book, I expect poo poo like Dragons and the Others. I don't need to be prepped for fantasy poo poo when I made the conscious decision to read fantasy. If Martin does it for the reason you like it, I'm a little insulted that he thinks I need reminding that the Seven Kingdoms are fake and have different rules than earth. I would match rather him put some effort into explaining how those rules work.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:22
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euphronius posted:He called Asha the Sacrifice and yet she was not sacrificed! I took that as a cheap attempt to build up suspense and get you to believe that Asha is about to be burned. Also, upthread someone asked if the names like Eddard and Benjen bothered me like "serjeant" and "ser" do. They don't because they exist alongside all sorts of "weird" fantasy names like Aegon and Tyrion.
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Jul 21, 2011 20:01
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Juaguocio posted:I really liked Dance, by the way. It seems to me that ASoIaF is going to be centered around two climactic "peaks." We've already had one of them in Storm, and Dance appears to be the Clash equivalent for the second half of the series, building up the various storylines that will lead to a massive climax in Winds. The Others have got to attack in that book, and it seems like that attack is going to come in the middle of a huge battle for the North. God, I hope not. If we hit the massive climax in Winds, then Dream is gonna just be denounment. He might be the "American Tolkien", but hopefully he has enough sense not to drag his series' ending out like old JRR did.
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Jul 22, 2011 03:02
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I think the implication is that he did a little more than just grope her because grabbing rear end and squeezing titties seems to be a pretty common part of the bedding process. But I don't think he slept with her that night. As for the castles, remember that this world has been stuck at a medieval level of technology for centuries, so a lot of these castles just grow and grow and grow because as long as your enemy doesn't have dragons, a big, well stocked castle is still the best defense in the world. There's also the magically aided construction thing. Some sort of magic went into building Winterfell, the Eyrie, and Dragonstone, amongst others. One neat tidbit I liked from Dance was the Valyrian roads. They're made from fused stones, which would seem to indicate that the Valyrians either used their dragons or somehow channeled lava to create their roads. That's a good bit of magic actually being put to practical purposes beyond killing poo poo and bringing it back to life, something a lot of fantasy world's lack.
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Jul 22, 2011 10:26
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Barristan is sexy Obi-Wan. Jorah is more like sexy Qui Gon Jin. Yes, I realize Jorah actually predates Qui Gon.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:23
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Brannock posted:And he managed to dodge that completely ... I'm glad DWD came out but it did pretty much nothing to progress the plot. At least TWOW + ADOS should wrap the series up nicely, considering how much poo poo happened in ACOK + ASOS Really? Everyone is in place for the big battle outside Mereen. Barristan is leading forward his forces. Victarion is sailing in with his fleet and his horn. Tyrion is turning the mercenaries, and Dany is on her way back with a dragon and maybe a whole new horde. It's kind of lame the Essos stuff ends right on the eve of a battle that's shaping up to make the Blackwater look like a skirmish, but GRRM certainly untied his Mereenese knot. And big cliff hangers have characterized the last two books, so as much as I don't particularly like it, it's par for the current course.
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Jul 23, 2011 01:13
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hampig posted:This is where we were at the end of Clash of Kings, so I guess that means nothing happened in Storm of Swords either? I think GRRM has laid good groundwork for an interesting ending with the Others and the coming of winter and whatnot. Bran's chapters have shown the "Good" side of the wintry magics, and Melisandra has shown us the "Evil" side of the fiery magics. So the final conflict isn't going to be totally black and white. Also, Westeros is gonna be totally, totally hosed at the end of all this, so even if they do save the realm from the others, there's not gonna be much of a realm left.
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Jul 23, 2011 03:09
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:Haha sorry to break it to you but sometimes words have different meanings in different countries. You will have to take off your Captain Anti-Racist costume now "Mong" does come from Mongoloid. Also, picking on that poor girl because she suffers from leprosy is a pretty clear case of ableism. 
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Jul 23, 2011 20:32
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Doibhilin posted:Did anyone else think it was really weird that Jon knew about Patchface when the queen arrived at Castle Black? I think he says that Cotter Pyke mentioned him in a letter. What the gently caress? Why would he mention Patchface in a letter? "Dude, Lord Snow, there's this little gently caress up who hangs out with the ugly leper..." It didn't seem strange to me that he would mention some weird dude who's always around and the queen cherishes. Also, Cotter was pretty annoyed with the queen's behavior, and he could have mentioned Patchface while he was bitching about her and her crew.
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Jul 23, 2011 23:27
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Aurubin posted:If you remember wights attacked Bran and Co just outside of the Children of the Forest's cave, implying, at least to me, that the Others are against them as well. Fire, ice, and nature maybe? Yeah, it's definitely wrong to think that Bran and the Others are on the same side. The ultimate source of their power may be the same (though personally, I don't think it is), but the Children of the Forest and their allies are clearly against the Others, as evidenced by them being the ones to teach the First Men and the Watch about using obsidian against them.
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Jul 24, 2011 01:23
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Effectronica posted:The Lannisters have enough cash that Kevan could pay off all the kingdom's debts without bankrupting himself. It's likely that he could pay all that without stretching Lannister funds if he did manage to win control of Casterly Rock (and potentially draw upon royal funds as well). But as he says, he's likely to die before they can reasonably expect to get paid anyways. Well, remember that much of the kingdom's debt is owed to the Lannisters, so he doesn't have to actually pay it; he can just write it off his books at home.
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Jul 24, 2011 21:15
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Unless Jacqen wanted to be caught. We never find out what he was doing in King's Landing to begin with.
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Jul 24, 2011 22:20
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hypocrite lecteur posted:He's a bad writer and incapable of building dramatic tension other than "IS YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTER DEAD? BUY MY NEXT BOOK AND FIND OUT!" if you don't like it at this point pull the cord on the series bro Yeah, especially in these last two books, he's become over-reliant on predictable cliff-hangers. But this poo poo is still better than most of the other modern fantasy out there.
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Jul 25, 2011 07:55
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Caufman posted:At least for me, it adds to the partial deconstruction of fantasy that I've come to appreciate from ASOIAF. Strong female characters acting utterly retarded out of love is a time honored tradition of epic fantasy. See Laurana in Dragons of Spring Dawning.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:38
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porfiria posted:Another big part of the Tywin/Tyrion conflict is that Tyrion is CLEARLY more like dad than Jaime or Cersei, and a worthy heir to Casterly Rock, but because of his deformity, Tywin will never accept Tyrion as his "true" son. Tyrion is everything Tywin fears to be: capable, but mocked and despised by one and all. If Tyrion is actually Aerys', then Tyrion really ISN'T the true heir to Casterly Rock, which ruins the symbolism of the issue. I disagree. If Tyrion's central conflict is based solely on his real nature being both at odds with yet secretly informing his self-conception, it actually has more emotional resonance. And it raises very interesting nature v nurture questions. Is Tyrion an awesome schemer because he's Tyrion's "son", or is it because he's an secret Targ? Do Tywin's efforts to ensure that the child not of his blood never inherits Casterly Rock have the opposite effect and ensure that very child is the most suited to inherit the title? Personally though, I think all the potential secret Targs that pop up in DwD are red herrings designed to obfuscate the very obvious R+L=J and J=I&F hints that have been figured out in the long wait between books. So while I can think of reasons why Tyrion is a secret Targ would make sense and have narrative value, I still don't think Tyrion is a secret Targ.
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Jul 29, 2011 06:54
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Iggles posted:Didn't Jorah cover all of this in aGoT? Dothraki would kill knights with their awesome archery skills if the lords were foolish enough to meet them in combat. If they hide behind their castle it's fine for a while but wouldn't make them teribly popular rulers. And the smallfolk would all be dead/enslaved. Great plan to rule the now devastated and unpopulated kingdom. Yeah, it's the archery they need to fear. Historically, excellent horse archery has been the bane of even well trained foot soldiers. The knights and free riders are only a small fraction of any Westerosi army. The bulk is poorly trained peasant infantry led by some decent men-at-arms and serjeants ( ).quote:But then you're not really reading, maaaan. I don't mean to poo poo on anyone who listens to audiobooks, but when you're listening to one, you really are not reading. Just on a very basic level, you're giving up the ability to pause, reread, and speed or slow your pace at your leisure. Sure you can pause and rewind on your ipod or whatever, but it's so much easier when you're looking at words instead of listening to someone speak. There's other reasons why I don't think listening to an audiobook is analogous to reading a book, but I don't want to get into a big derail about it.
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Jul 30, 2011 19:54
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NihilCredo posted:I agree with this, but I get the impression that most people who use audiobooks do so for logistical reasons (i.e. they have to spend 2+ hours a day driving), not because they like it better. So showering them in condescendence as if they were lazy illiterates is pretty annoying. Yeah, which is why I don't want to poo poo on the people who are listening to the audiobooks. Dr. Faustus posted:I have some objections to audiobooks. Your objections are my own, but that doesn't mean we should derail this thread in an attempt to educate the Philistines.
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Jul 30, 2011 22:22
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Too bad there's only one good book in that trilogy.
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Jul 30, 2011 23:04
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Sir_Vondruke_IV posted:GRRM may have some problems, but no other author could make me cheer for a fat cannibal feeding other people their relatives. Trey Parker and Matt Stone did it ten years ago. Shakespeare did it 400 years ago. Ovid did it 2000 years ago, and Hesiod did it 800 years before that. Feeding people their relatives is one of the oldest revenge tricks there is.
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Aug 1, 2011 20:33
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