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Radbot posted:I think it's pretty telling how there are virtually zero insurance shills in here, and half a dozen defending Goldman in its thread. Even the Republican attorney general from Louisiana thinks the insurance companies are bullshit: quote:I trust the government more than insurance companies. If the government wants to put forth a policy where they will pay for everything and you won’t have to go through an insurance policy, that’d be a whole lot better.
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 00:51 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 12:43 |
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Sundae: Who is your insurer? That's really hosed up! All of the insurers I've worked directly with give an exact dollar number of what they will cover when they give a pre-approval, and that pre-approval is definitely binding. Of course, most of the groups I work with are HMOs, PPOs, or otherwise not-for-profit, so their pre-approval process is to allow their members to get necessary care while weeding out unnecessary procedures or tests ordered by ambitious physicians. Anthem BC:BS of Indiana. I miss my old insurance.  Horizon BC:BS though my old employer in Connecticut covered literally everything at 100%, $20.00 co-pay, no coinsurance. My new employer's insurance uses a $2000 deductible, 6% Base Salary Max OOP, and 80/20 coinsurance (except for mental care, which is 50/50). They also ban all use of the insurance as a secondary policy, and will not cover a dime in those cases.Edit: Oh, and that whole pre-approval not-binding bullshit as well. Sundae fucked around with this message at Apr 4, 2012 around 01:51 |
| # ? Apr 4, 2012 01:47 |
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Sundae posted:Anthem BC:BS of Indiana. I miss my old insurance. That's disgusting. BC:BS is such a crock. 90% of the time they're not the payor or the carrier, just the administrator, but they'll still let their name be part of the plan name. This means that lovely insurance companies that contract them can ride on the good will of better insurance companies that contract them and try to fool less educated insurance buyers (or people that don't have a choice) into thinking that they're getting a similar plan. I'm kinda in the reverse situation from you, having gone form a plan with a worse deductible than yours and $75 copay for everything to a plan where the only money I spend is a $5 med copay and a $50 ER copay, and it's to the point where I had a conditioned guilt reaction to taking my wife to the ER at 2am because she was vomiting. Like, in a sane world there should be nothing wrong at all with going to the ER for that, but for some reason I felt like I was stealing from someone because I was getting care for almost no money. When you think of that, the way somebody who recognizes flaws in the system can still be conditioned to feel bad about seeking care, it's not as hard to see how a conservative country (which excels at deluding itself) could have such hosed up views about who deserves care.
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 01:57 |
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Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 05:15 |
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FourLeaf posted:Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted. America is fatter then every other country that has a UHC system.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 05:36 |
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FourLeaf posted:Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted. If by lazy he means working people have more free time in countries with UHC, that sounds like a point in UHC's favor.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 06:08 |
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FourLeaf posted:Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:05 |
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Tell your friend that he's fat. Harsh, I know, but what the hell do you expect arguing on facebook?
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:13 |
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FourLeaf posted:Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:22 |
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TACD posted:What's his assertion exactly? That if people don't need jobs to get healthcare they'll quit their jobs because they won't need money either? Pretty much this. Healthcare + welfare = no incentive to work, because people will get taken care of for free. And if people are stuck in jobs with poor health insurance it's because they didn't work hard enough to qualify for a better one. Oh, and here's a great quote: "Everyone knows that subsidies increase an activity and taxes/regulations reduce them. Welfare subsidizes poverty." Edit: This guy is a friend of a friend... we're both commenting on a mutual friend's picture.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:25 |
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Here's one thing that I can think of that the Democrats should be screaming from the rooftops in response to rhetoric about lazy poor people: We're in a recession. Why are you calling those who have been laid off or can't find jobs lazy? As for the bit about how you should find a better job if you need better insurance: We will always need ditch diggers, janitors, fry cooks, garbage men, and grocery baggers. What if that's all a person is qualified for, or, gasp, that person finds their menial job fulfilling? Are you arguing for a permanent underclass of desperate, disposable labor? Republicans call liberals elitists, but what's more elitist than saying that the poor deserve to be left for dead when they get sick?!
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:44 |
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FourLeaf posted:Pretty much this. Healthcare + welfare = no incentive to work, because people will get taken care of for free. When the fact of the ongoing existence of a majority of the rest of the modern world is an argument in your favour that still doesn't persuade him I wouldn't beat yourself up too much that your added words can't make up the difference.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 07:48 |
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TACD posted:I love this argument, it's like a combination of some sort of inverted American exceptionalism and economist's sophistry. "There may be many other countries with UHC and a working welfare system that function normally but it wouldn't work here because Americans are uniquely lazy". And then of course monetary compensation is the sole reason anybody does anything since economics can't account for quality of life factors like self-actualisation. Part of the reason, I'd wager, is hand waving it away by attacking people not white, given America's racial makeup. Beyond that, our culture is unhealthily focused on money being the sole measure of one's being so to say that someone doesn't give a poo poo as long as they have enough money to be "lazy" makes a bit of sense from that perspective. Of course it's all bullshit, but America's entire political history is rife with this sort of bullshit. It's not as if the first Tea Party wasn't a bunch of economic reactionaries trying to fight for the interests of the wealthy (whether knowingly or unwittingly).
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 09:15 |
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In this country where everyone just HAS to have the latest electronics, that sweet car, those awesome clothes, that $5000 diamond ring for their fiancee, that huge house in a gated community... ...you really think people would stop working just because the government provided them with canned surplus meat, a studio apartment in the ghetto and health care? We're not asking for the government to make everyone content and comfortable. They just need help surviving. Socket Ryanist fucked around with this message at Apr 5, 2012 around 09:39 |
| # ? Apr 5, 2012 09:36 |
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FourLeaf posted:Pretty much this. Healthcare + welfare = no incentive to work, because people will get taken care of for free. And if people are stuck in jobs with poor health insurance it's because they didn't work hard enough to qualify for a better one. Oh, and here's a great quote: "Everyone knows that subsidies increase an activity and taxes/regulations reduce them. Welfare subsidizes poverty." If anything, surely not having to worry, every single day, about being financially ruined through no fault of your own would make people more able to work? It's been proven, time and time and time again, that being stressed drastically reduces a worker's performance. This counts for blue collar and white collar work. In a similar vein, being forced to work 55 or 60 hour weeks just makes your work shoddy. Working 'hard' is a complete crock of poo poo, in the common sense of the term. http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bri...hour_work_week/ Sara Robinson posted:The Making of the 40-Hour Week The exact same argument can be made for UHC. If you brutalise your workforce, they simply can't work as well as you'd want them to. But I think it's become culturally ingrained, amongst management and workers, both here in the UK and over there in the States, that if you're not stressed, you're doing something wrong. It's classic race to the bottom stuff.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 09:39 |
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Dr Christmas posted:Here's one thing that I can think of that the Democrats should be screaming from the rooftops in response to rhetoric about lazy poor people: We're in a recession. Why are you calling those who have been laid off or can't find jobs lazy? This is the best rebuttal to that BS. What exactly made so many people get lazy in 2008? What turned all the hard working Americans into lazy bums that just weren't looking for work hard enough?
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 12:19 |
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Maddman posted:This is the best rebuttal to that BS. What exactly made so many people get lazy in 2008? What turned all the hard working Americans into lazy bums that just weren't looking for work hard enough? I agree with this argument wholeheartedly, but I don't think a Republican on the national stage has gone down this path far enough to actually be able to be called out on it. They've intimated it, but have been smart enough to stop just short of it.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 13:31 |
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FourLeaf posted:Pretty much this. Healthcare + welfare = no incentive to work, because people will get taken care of for free. And if people are stuck in jobs with poor health insurance it's because they didn't work hard enough to qualify for a better one. Oh, and here's a great quote: "Everyone knows that subsidies increase an activity and taxes/regulations reduce them. Welfare subsidizes poverty." I wonder if this gentleman works more than the absolute minimum necessary to sustain himself. If so, why?
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 19:10 |
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FourLeaf posted:Pretty much this. Healthcare + welfare = no incentive to work, because people will get taken care of for free. And if people are stuck in jobs with poor health insurance it's because they didn't work hard enough to qualify for a better one. Oh, and here's a great quote: "Everyone knows that subsidies increase an activity and taxes/regulations reduce them. Welfare subsidizes poverty." Ask him how people will buy their Reeboks and Audi sports cars when they don't work. HC and food assistance are not the be-all-and-end-all of life. Oh and ask him why the rich still go to work, if they have everything taken care of already.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 19:20 |
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anonumos posted:Ask him how people will buy their Reeboks and Audi sports cars when they don't work. HC and food assistance are not the be-all-and-end-all of life. Man, if someone's busting out that nugget, they'll be dropping every anecdote about picking up welfare checks in a tricked out cadillac. quote:
Because there are sheep and there are shepherds, and where would the flock be without them?
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 21:20 |
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I don't know what this guy's problem is. Probably a massive case of privilege. The last time I saw him in person (like a year ago) he got into a big argument about the same stuff with my friend. I doubt I'll be able to convince him now, and if not I won't worry about it too much  And thanks for the suggestions/links. He still hasn't responded yet, so we'll see.
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| # ? Apr 5, 2012 22:21 |
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TACD posted:I love this argument, it's like a combination of some sort of inverted American exceptionalism and economist's sophistry. "There may be many other countries with UHC and a working welfare system that function normally but it wouldn't work here because Americans are uniquely lazy". And then of course monetary compensation is the sole reason anybody does anything since economics can't account for quality of life factors like self-actualisation. It's the same reason that we can't build trains or have more green energy. America is special and therefore can't have any of these nice things... for some reason. If America is really that exceptional, I'd expect them to want to institute the same policies but institute them better than everyone else so that we can rub their smug faces in it (yeah take THAT France) (say what's up with your avatar?)
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| # ? Apr 17, 2012 21:38 |
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QuarkJets posted:It's the same reason that we can't build trains or have more green energy. America is special and therefore can't have any of these nice things... for some reason. The "American Exceptionalism" wall I run into debating healthcare with people is along the lines that America has the best doctors in the world, that has to be true because look at the hoops they have to jump through (and that they are American) so why would we want to tell them who they could work on and make them give their services away for free?!?!? As an exceptional American patient you are reliant on nobody because you are the top of the world food chain, get a job and buy your own healthcare because that's what the most exceptional people in the world do. It's a twisted mentality but a common train of thought apparently. I've never met anyone who had to be uninsured due to circumstances beyond their control spout ridiculous bullshit like that though. I've stopped talking to a lot of acquaintances recently, oddly enough. Space Crabs fucked around with this message at Apr 17, 2012 around 22:05 |
| # ? Apr 17, 2012 22:01 |
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What's so exceptional about getting care that's objectively a bad value, though? What hoops do doctors jump through in America (besides accruing staggering amounts of debt) that they don't jump through in other OECD countries? I get the whole "we're special" thing (which JUST HAPPENS to almost always coincide with a desire not to let "those people" freeload), but have these people ever submitted an insurance claim or read a newspaper? Taking race out of the question, white people in America objectively live shorter lives than white people in western Europe - is this because the doctors there are less qualified? Please help me understand the thought process.
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| # ? Apr 17, 2012 22:13 |
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Radbot posted:What's so exceptional about getting care that's objectively a bad value, though? What hoops do doctors jump through in America (besides accruing staggering amounts of debt) that they don't jump through in other OECD countries? Well look at the point being made. Do you really think that statistics or figures or proven facts about UHC systems having better care and citizens under them having longer lives even come into play? If someone is going to go as far to say our current care is the best in the world simply because it's American then they don't give a poo poo if they are paying more money for worse care. I don't really understand it myself. I hear it often enough living in a red southern state though. Aside from that some people don't want UHC simply because people would get something for free. They fight for a system that is harmful to their quality of health/economic well being to hurt other people. If you don't possess that vindictive brand of idiocy I don't see any understanding that one either.
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| # ? Apr 17, 2012 22:25 |
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Exceptionalism seems to me a byproduct of patriotism. Y'know that, 'this is America! This the loving best place in the world', vibe. The great thing about patriotism is that allows a lot of systemic flaws in the country to be smoothed over by flag waving. Seeing it more and more in Australia as well, this blind nationalism that allows those who aren't being systematically discriminated against or disadvantaged to believe that this is as good as it gets, and to suggest we run a racist establishment, or are denying people their rights, is unpatriotic. It's kind of hard to 'debunk' partriotism.
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| # ? Apr 17, 2012 23:49 |
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Have you guys considered that the reason for insurance company problems is deliberate sabotage by the radical commusocialist muslim left in order to smear the good names of hard-working american corporations, in the hopes that the US will institute a single-payer system bankrupting the nation and leaving it ripe for invasion.
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| # ? Apr 21, 2012 04:23 |
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MonsterUnderYourBed posted:Have you guys considered that the reason for insurance company problems is deliberate sabotage by the radical commusocialist muslim left in order to smear the good names of hard-working american corporations, in the hopes that the US will institute a single-payer system bankrupting the nation and leaving it ripe for invasion. You'd have to assume that single-payer would bankrupt the nation.
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| # ? Apr 21, 2012 18:03 |
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anonumos posted:You'd have to assume that single-payer would bankrupt the nation. Morally bankrupt! 
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 19:27 |
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Maluco Marinero posted:It's kind of hard to 'debunk' partriotism. Why is supporting health insurance companies a matter of patriotism, though? I get supporting the military, but the GOP wanted to "let Detroit go bankrupt", so that warm sentiment clearly doesn't pass through to all private corporations in the country.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 16:48 |
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That's because the auto industry had fallen behind on their protection payments.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 17:00 |
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Hey, I have a heartwarming anecdote for everyone- I worked in a Pediatric Nephrology clinic for a year at a large teaching hospital and got to meet a lovely young patient who we will call Pedro (not real name, for obvious reasons). Anyway, Pedro is the child of undocumented workers and he himself does not have citizenship (born in Mexico). Pedro is also in end stage kidney disease (total kidney failure) and requires hemodialysis three times a week in order to purify his blood and keep him alive. The state I worked in provided social security-like healthcare benefits to children regardless of legal status, so his dialysis was paid for by the state. Anyway Pedro was 17 and approaching the age of 18, at which point he would no longer be covered under state insurance and thus lose his healthcare entirely, which means no more dialysis and no hope for a transplant. As it stands, the docs were trying to get him up and transplanted before he turned 17 so that at least they could find some way to negotiate for discounted immunosuppressive therapies so that he could eke out a semi-normal existence and not be crushed in between the cogs of our disgusting medical system. Anyway one of the docs was doing their routine dialysis physicals and was asking him hey, have you started saving money for the transplant co-pay (its like 10-20k I think, dont quote me on that) and he said that he was trying but he was also working to help pay for his mom and sister's groceries because his dad had been deported and no longer was providing for their family. I also knew he had been secretly spending a lot of that money on gifts for his girlfriend, a hemodialysis patient whom he had met through his clinic appointments. Well this was pretty much too much for me so I had to make a polite "Excuse me" so I could leave and just fight the combination of anger/nausea/overwhelming sadness that hit me like a sledgehammer. To make it clear, without dialysis "Pedro" will die a fairly slow and unpleasant death. Dialysis costs ~35-40k a month. Land of the free, home of the brave. Goddammit.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 17:01 |
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Oh hey are we telling stories? My mom's a nurse at a cardiac practice. Back when Obamacare was in the works, the doctors decided to all head up to Washington to protest Obama's communist healthcare plot. They told the nurses that if they wanted to get paid for that day (and keep their jobs), they would have to dig up 50 patient files, call the patients at home, and read off a script about how Obamacare death panels are going to kill them and turn America into the USSR. She flat-out refused and they threatened her job (right-to-work state, go Florida!), so she went in, locked herself in an office, and just chatted with 50 patients on the phone in case they checked the phone records.  And then of course after it passed and their Medicare reimbursements for procedures got cut they started freaking out about how Obama was trying to drive them out of business and tried to get all the nurses to join the Tea Party with them. Then they cashed out and sold the practice to the public hospital next door. Oh well. Luigi Thirty fucked around with this message at Apr 23, 2012 around 17:48 |
| # ? Apr 23, 2012 17:43 |
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FourLeaf posted:Ugh... I've gotten into a Facebook argument with someone who insists that Universal Healthcare and welfare will just make people lazier. Are there any any good sources for showing that this is wrong? I have a few from progressive sites, but I don't think those will be accepted. I realize this is from a couple of weeks ago but I just caught up with this thread and wanted to point out that no one ever gives a poo poo about facts and sources when their argument is based on ideology and propaganda. The only tactic I've ever personally witnessed to be effective is pointing out, politely but firmly, over and over that the inevitable outcome of their ideology is that it makes people suffer and die. Facts are mostly meaningless but social pressure works and putting the onus on them to defend the death penalty for poverty will usually make people at least pause and think for a second. The "UHC will make people lazy!!" thing is just another in a long line of red herrings and rationalizations. The real issue is that for-profit healthcare leaves people to die. Kommienzuspadt posted:Hey, I have a heartwarming anecdote for everyone- Well I guess Pedro should have planned ahead and been born in amerifuck this I cant do it dta
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 17:44 |
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You can't even unironically say Death to America anymore... It's already dying.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:06 |
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The worst was reading that article about the Arizona gov refusing medicare to people with terminal illnesses, because of budgetary problems with the recession. And Republicans think we (  ) have death panels... 
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:22 |
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Mister Macys posted:The worst was reading that article about the Arizona gov refusing medicare to people with terminal illnesses because of budgetary problems with the recession going on. I think the point there was that some of the patients were already approved for transplants and were just waiting for their surgery date...cuts went into effect and their approval was rescinded and several died.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:23 |
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Either way, it's completely despicable, and wrong on every moral level. They trusted their government to save their lives, and the government basically said, "Just kidding! Can't have this anymore!"
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:25 |
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 If you want less capitalism [and better healthcare] you can just GTFO guys.* *but posted by a "friend" unironically on FB Totally TWISTED fucked around with this message at Apr 23, 2012 around 19:10 |
| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:34 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 12:43 |
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Totally TWISTED posted:
I guess I should start looking into other countrys [sic] to move to. upsciLLion fucked around with this message at Apr 23, 2012 around 19:12 |
| # ? Apr 23, 2012 18:48 |
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