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resistentialism
Aug 13, 2007



Please tell my multiple shields work well, with the understanding that I'm not, not going to add in multiple shields.

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Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008


resistentialism posted:

Please tell my multiple shields work well, with the understanding that I'm not, not going to add in multiple shields.

Well, they work at least about as well as a single shield if I recall. Haven't done any conclusive testing in that department, though.

ZeeToo
Feb 20, 2008

I'm a kitty!


I have.

I'm 90% sure that individual weapons and shields each get their own parry/block chance.

Red_October_7000
Jun 22, 2009


At the very least if you have more than 2 arms and have multiple shields, and one arm gets cut off, you will still have a shield! Speaking of which, what effects bleeding out? I've had fighters lose a limb and keep chewing through multiple opponents (delivered in a serial fashion), and other times a lost limb leads to an almost-immediate death through bleeding.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008


Red_October_7000 posted:

At the very least if you have more than 2 arms and have multiple shields, and one arm gets cut off, you will still have a shield! Speaking of which, what effects bleeding out? I've had fighters lose a limb and keep chewing through multiple opponents (delivered in a serial fashion), and other times a lost limb leads to an almost-immediate death through bleeding.

Smaller species bleed out easier. I think toughness may also play a role.

Red_October_7000
Jun 22, 2009


Vox Nihili posted:

Smaller species bleed out easier. I think toughness may also play a role.

That explains why a dark gnome fell apart after he got his hand taken off, however the one who kept going missing a left arm is my elf, she took out two more fighters whilst missing an arm and I never actually stuck around to see her bleed out; I think I decided to do another round of tests with a fresh fighter so I'd have more accurate results.

ZeeToo
Feb 20, 2008

I'm a kitty!


The game models bleeding out pretty well, actually. The larger you are, the more little cuts you can take. If you have better endurance/recuperation/toughness, you can take hits better. Not sure which exactly governs what there.

Only a few things will make you bleed out in short order. Major damage to the heart, gut, or the removal of limbs will do it--in ascending order of how much time you have left. I've seen a few unfortunate gladiators attempt to keep fighting while down up to three limbs, though that's never ended well for that guy.

Edged weapons with a larger contact area deal more grievous blows, though they are less effective against armor they can't cut through. A spear point doesn't leave much of an injury; it's more a pin-prick. A great axe or halberd against a soft target will often bisect the unfortunate victim (in a test, I saw a human halberdier cut a yeti in two at the waist). Keep in mind that weapon size is independent of its wielder; a yeti holds the same dagger that a gremlin does.

You don't get much of a bleeding problem from bashing weapons, and there's a few other ways to kill a target.

Red_October_7000
Jun 22, 2009


ZeeToo posted:

The game models bleeding out pretty well, actually. The larger you are, the more little cuts you can take. If you have better endurance/recuperation/toughness, you can take hits better. Not sure which exactly governs what there.

Only a few things will make you bleed out in short order. Major damage to the heart, gut, or the removal of limbs will do it--in ascending order of how much time you have left. I've seen a few unfortunate gladiators attempt to keep fighting while down up to three limbs, though that's never ended well for that guy.

Edged weapons with a larger contact area deal more grievous blows, though they are less effective against armor they can't cut through. A spear point doesn't leave much of an injury; it's more a pin-prick. A great axe or halberd against a soft target will often bisect the unfortunate victim (in a test, I saw a human halberdier cut a yeti in two at the waist). Keep in mind that weapon size is independent of its wielder; a yeti holds the same dagger that a gremlin does.

You don't get much of a bleeding problem from bashing weapons, and there's a few other ways to kill a target.

Thanks for the info!
The dagger itself must be something akin to an Arkansas Toothpick, to the gremlin it's the size of a short sword, the yeti probably wields it more like a Fairbairn-Sykes knife. How the hell this works out with bows, we may never know...

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs


megane posted:

Yeah, I entered a Kobold, but here's how every single test against a larger opponent goes:

The Minotaur 1 charges at Kobold 22!
Minotaur 1 collides with Kobold 22!
Kobold 22 is knocked over and tumbles backward!
[Several lines of kobold dismemberment]
Kobold 22 has been struck down.

Spending a huge number of points on dodging just adds several dozen lines of block/dodge spam to the top. I know supposedly dodge helps you avoid stuff when prone, but it seems like an unskilled guy attacking a prone Kobold with Dodge 10 and a buckler still hits nearly all the time. Oh well.

Well if you look at the attack formula, not taking armour into account:



RND(X) is a number between 0 and X so charging and size are both a pretty big deal.

Also, here is a quick and dirty arena map with 64 rings for everyone to test with. Copy and paste it over your current data/init/arena.txt:

http://sharetext.org/AWWH

If it looks ugly it's because I had to edit it for the new 10 paces starting distance.

e: These fights are going to be incredibly gory now that contestants don't pass out when they break a nail

e2: An example - I didn't let my arena finish collapsing before I paused and put the dudes in.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at Jul 23, 2011 around 08:47

Jazzimus Prime
May 16, 2002

Autobot Commander, 2005-2007

It's been just over 24 hours, and 82 of 128 spots have already been taken! That's almost two thirds!

It's nice that it's taking more than 24 hours to fill up this tournament though. The previous tournament allowed only 64 participants, and filled up in less than 24 hours. Because of this, quite a few people who lived on the other side of the earth weren't able to join that one before it was closed. For this tournament, however, there are no excuses!

Jack the Lad posted:



Cool! Where did you get this? Did someone actually disassemble Toady's code and try to read the binary?

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs


Jazzimus Prime posted:

Cool! Where did you get this? Did someone actually disassemble Toady's code and try to read the binary?

Toady posted over on the bay12 forums.

Toady posted:

Let's say we've got a weapon with damage 65. The craft quality modifier is applied to that, so say it was well-crafted and we therefore have 65*6/5. This is 390/5 = 78. Let's say the metal modifier is 75%, so it's then reduced to 58. This is divided by 10, 5. And then we pick a number from 1 to 5, say, 4. 4 is greater than (5+1)/2=3, so this attack is marked as "strong", and is therefore eligible for stuck-ins.

So we have a 4. Say the attacker is "strong" (str=1). We apply a modifier from 0 to 1, then. Say we get it, for a damage of 5. Say the attacker is berserk (0-4) and charging (0-5). Let's say those two rolls net us 4 more. Now we are a 9.

Now say the defender has a thick damblock 2 skin. We remove 0-2 points from our attack value, say 1. Now we are at 8. We then look at the size difference. In this case, let's say the attacker is 3 sizes larger. We add 0-3 points to the attack, say 2. Now we are at 10. If the size were smaller, you just flat subtract that number (no randomization).

Let's say the defender has a toughness of 2 (very tough, or whatever). We subtract 0-2, say 0. Still at 10. Being berserk/enraged can lower the attack damage if the defender is in that state, by 0-4, though I'm not sure why. I might intended the trance there, but I don't remember my rationale. In any case, still at 10.

Now say the defender is lying on the ground. The attacker isn't using a latchable attack, so we have the huge x2 damage bonus that comes from smacking a prone opponent. Now we are at 20.

Now we get to the defender's armor. Look at all of the items which cover the struck part, say the upper arm, and use the second/main damage block there according to all the up/down step stuff. Say there are two items on the part, blocking it for a total of 20+30=50. Craftquality and material modifiers work as with weapons, changing this to say 45. Then skill rolls are made against armor skill. The defender gets a good roll and manages to double the value, attaining a 90. This is divided by 10, giving us 9. Now we take 0-9 off the damage value, say 5. Now we are at 15. At this point, if the attack is at 0, and a very hard roll is made against the skill-modified hit roll, there is a chance it gets raised to 1 regardless of all prior obstacles. This in particular allows highly-skilled or lucky fighters to injure gigantic creatures.

Anyway, we are at 15. This is a very hard hit, so we apply all manner of horror to the creature. If the weapon is bludgeoning, it'll cause 15/2=7 bleeding, 15*10=150 exertion, 15*5=65 pain, and mangle the once healthy arm to 15-15=0, completely mangled. The damage is also greater than 9 and not piercing/goring/burning/etc., so the target can be propelled. If the weapon were slashing, the bleeding would be much greater (15). It wouldn't get stuck in because the creature can still be propelled by slashing weapons. There's also the whole matter of criticals, which I won't go into. And severs, which would have happened with a slashing weapon if we had gotten to 16 or if the part were already damaged in any way.

Also interesting is that the final attack number is multiplied by 2 if the defender is prone and the attacker is standing. So if you're bigger than someone you have a ton of advantages because everything compounds.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at Jul 23, 2011 around 09:58

PublicOpinion
Oct 20, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...


Does that still apply with the way materials work now? From the references to a percentile material quality mod and the goring/burning damage types, it must be from before the 31.x series.

The references in the formula to berserking make me think that badgermen should be made a playable race for the next tournament, though. They have the same 'always enraged' thing that the regular badgers do, right?

Jazzimus Prime
May 16, 2002

Autobot Commander, 2005-2007

Jack the Lad posted:

Toady posted over on the bay12 forums.


Also interesting is that the final attack number is multiplied by 2 if the defender is prone and the attacker is standing. So if you're bigger than someone you have a ton of advantages because everything compounds.

Very interesting. This information could probably be useful for purposes of game balancing.

TheWhaler
Nov 6, 2009


Jack the Lad posted:

Also interesting is that the final attack number is multiplied by 2 if the defender is prone and the attacker is standing. So if you're bigger than someone you have a ton of advantages because everything compounds.

Ah, so that's why when in my tests my minotaur was able to defeat molemarians even with a bashing weapon. And defeated stranglers with grandmaster wresting, striking, biting and dodging almost half the time.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008


Jack the Lad posted:

Well if you look at the attack formula, not taking armour into account:



I'm almost entirely sure that this is an old formula that has been largely superseded by changes made in recent versions. For example, "material" and "quality" are no longer just flat variables dropped a single equation, and actual damage dealt (what the equation is showing) is no longer a simple numerical value.

As complicated as this equation looks, the current version is far, far beyond this.

Shorter Than Some
May 6, 2009


Is there any way to save a build to make testing less tedious?

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs


Vox Nihili posted:

I'm almost entirely sure that this is an old formula that has been largely superseded by changes made in recent versions. For example, "material" and "quality" are no longer just flat variables dropped a single equation, and actual damage dealt (what the equation is showing) is no longer a simple numerical value.

As complicated as this equation looks, the current version is far, far beyond this.

I expect so, yeah - Toady's post dates from June 2009.

It's still super interesting to see behind the scenes a little.

Asehujiko
Apr 6, 2011


Is there a chance that the number of contestants will be boosted to 256 if we approach that number or will the battle royale be even more ?

Shorter Than Some
May 6, 2009


Asehujiko posted:

Is there a chance that the number of contestants will be boosted to 256 if we approach that number or will the battle royale be even more ?

From the looks of it sign ups are slowing down so it seems pretty unlikely that it will reach that stage. And besides it would be an obscene amount of work for Vox.+

Orv
May 4, 2011

Precisely.


Whelp, I was going to just go in blind at 64 contestants and hope for the best, using a combination of things I've seen over the past three tournaments, but I guess if it's a single-elim 128-man. . .

Strike the testing arena!

(That formulae for combat makes my head hurt.)

CommaToes
Dec 15, 2006

Yeah, she died, like, twenty minutes after that.


SynthOrange posted:

George is going to make some new friends, and hug them and pet them and aww they broke.

George is a great name for a yeti. Not as good as Jim, mind you.

Anticheese
Feb 13, 2008

$60,000,000 sexbot


Somehow my tigerman fighter got entered in despite having no points to spend?

Krysmphoenix
Jul 29, 2010

BAHAMUT.
Torch 'im.
I don't want to see
even ashes left.


Anticheese posted:

Somehow my tigerman fighter got entered in despite having no points to spend?

Same is true for all of us. When the tournament begins, we'll get our points to spend on the first round.

ZeeToo
Feb 20, 2008

I'm a kitty!


Shorter Than Some posted:

Is there any way to save a build to make testing less tedious?

Yes. If you have problems with that, though, probably better to ask in the games thread than here.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Jazzimus Prime posted:

Sometimes proxy servers put backslashes in front of form-input quotation marks for some strange reason. I'll fix it for you as soon as my broadband internet comes back online I'm having to post this from my Android for the moment

edit: My broadband is back up and I've fixed it for you.
My fighter, Lon Chaney's Lover, is having the same issue. TIA

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008


Shorter Than Some posted:

Is there any way to save a build to make testing less tedious?

In addition to the macro information that was posted, you can also create a large number of identical fighters as once as long as you don't go in and change their qualities. Just create them all in different areas/rooms, then do the same for a particular type of opponent to run mass tests to determine certain probabilities.

quote:

Is there a chance that the number of contestants will be boosted to 256 if we approach that number or will the battle royale be even more ?

Nope, there is a firm limit at 128. We may yet fail to reach even that number unless there is a surge of people this weekend. I notice we are missing several of the regulars, though, who presumably stopped following the last thread when the tournament dragged on after their characters were eliminated.

Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at Jul 23, 2011 around 18:26

Roctavian
Feb 23, 2011



Awright bringin' in a NaTm of Chei, or saving that a badass snakeman.

Kwathi
Nov 7, 2010


Glad to hear there is still space, though I haven't got my registration at the Arena Challenge site confirmed yet. I'm assuming there's just a backlog, or people are actually out having lives. Anyway, hoping to have the chance to present the best adequatest least worst most easily talked into a near-certain death goblinkind has to offer!

Jazzimus Prime
May 16, 2002

Autobot Commander, 2005-2007

Kwathi posted:

Glad to hear there is still space, though I haven't got my registration at the Arena Challenge site confirmed yet. I'm assuming there's just a backlog, or people are actually out having lives. Anyway, hoping to have the chance to present the best adequatest least worst most easily talked into a near-certain death goblinkind has to offer!

I just approved all the queued-up registrations, so you're good to go.


Halloween Jack posted:

My fighter, Lon Chaney's Lover, is having the same issue. TIA

Fixed.

Goatie
Jul 8, 2010


Well then... I was curious about this last year, but I never entered because... well, it seemed intimidating to me. Size charts and numbers and large log files! But I'm willing to try it now that there's a new thread and I'm more confident with numbers. Yes, delicious, delicious numbers... and dwarves. Tasty dwarves.

Adus
Nov 4, 2009

Ken, I grew up in Dublin. I love Dublin. If I grew up on a farm, and was retarded, Bruges might impress me but I didn't, so it doesn't.


Goatie posted:

Well then... I was curious about this last year, but I never entered because... well, it seemed intimidating to me. Size charts and numbers and large log files! But I'm willing to try it now that there's a new thread and I'm more confident with numbers. Yes, delicious, delicious numbers... and dwarves. Tasty dwarves.

It's intimidating as hell to me, too. I don't really know anything about DF at all and picking skills for any sort of game always stresses me. That said it's not like I have much to lose by entering. The Bulbous Loaf will either die a glorious death or get very lucky. Probably the former.

Krysmphoenix
Jul 29, 2010

BAHAMUT.
Torch 'im.
I don't want to see
even ashes left.


92 gladiators, still room for 36 more!

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs


How big are the Battle Royales going to be?

We have 32 contestants at the moment.

TheWhaler
Nov 6, 2009


Adus posted:

It's intimidating as hell to me, too. I don't really know anything about DF at all and picking skills for any sort of game always stresses me. That said it's not like I have much to lose by entering. The Bulbous Loaf will either die a glorious death or get very lucky. Probably the former.

I've never played a proper game of DF (although I have tried, only to be turned back) but through luck I have won one of the tournaments, so success in these tourneys isn't exactly limited to people with encyclopedic knowledge of Dwarf Fortress.

Samopsa
Nov 9, 2009


Yay! Lurked a bit in the other threads, awesome stuff. Joined this one. Hope my tigerman gets trough his first round with his tail intact!

VladTheEater
Dec 30, 2008

Ahhhhhh, fresh meat.

Jack the Lad posted:

How big are the Battle Royales going to be?

We have 32 contestants at the moment.

We're doing a 128-fighter tournament so we currently have zero Battle Royales. I'd think that the size of the Battle Royales will depend on how many 'extra' fighters we have signed up.

PureRok
Mar 27, 2010

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.

This new fighting update rocks. My werewolf tore a kobold to pieces with his teeth during testing.

This tournament is going to be even more exciting than ever before.

Iunnrais
Jul 25, 2007

It's gaelic.

Testing is showing that a sword and board kobold has about as much survival chance as a month old mayfly in an artic snowstorm. I'm actually pretty disappointed. I wonder if the tiny-size discount could apply to melee weapons in addition to dodging... or just give them more points.

I know, I know, I'm whining, but the concept would have been cool if it could work. In the event the rules stay the same, I'll be looking into ranged options.

Jazzimus Prime
May 16, 2002

Autobot Commander, 2005-2007

102 of 128 spots have been taken! It looks like we might get the tournament filled up this weekend!

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SynthOrange
May 6, 2007

I feel the pressure,
under more scrutiny
And what I do,
act more stupidly


I admit I was slightly worried that the 128 cap would delay the start something fierce, but it looks like we'll get there after all.

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