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Fantabulero posted:I mean, I'm sure the quality will be going up compared to where it is now, but that's all relative - it doesn't mean it'll be "good", just that it'll be "less bad." And I'm sure it'll sell like crazy because it's Johns and Lee, they're names and a lot of people eat that up. That's fine, but I need more than that to pique my interest, much less put my money on the counter. This reboot seems to have a lot of titles that will probably (sadly) fly under the radar.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 18:48 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 19:51 |
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Matt Cruea posted:I thought Death of Superman was confirmed, too. As far as 52 and other such events, I remember hearing there will be elements of which that still occurred, though maybe not exactly as the event we knew before. As some examples: Brightest Day is confirmed to be still canon, along with the Sinestro Corps war in Green Lantern, therefore the Anti-Monitor is still canon, so the big fight of CoIE and some of it's effects must have happened but probably without the time resetting. Since Batman continuity is untouched, he still left Gotham during the 52 weeks and left Harvey Dent in charge to wind up with the Face The Face story (though that year off was probably really compressed due to the new timeline). There can still be events like Montoya becoming the new Question that took place but in a different circumstance than we knew before.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 18:49 |
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Madkal posted:This reboot seems to have a lot of titles that will probably (sadly) fly under the radar.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 18:52 |
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Madkal posted:This reboot seems to have a lot of titles that will probably (sadly) fly under the radar. This is why it should have been spread out over a period of time rather than shooting 52 new books out in one month.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 19:32 |
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Fantabulero posted:But as far as the "mainstream" DC superhero books go, forget it, I think I'm done. That's where I'm at with them at this point, too. I've only ever been a casual DC reader anyway, but when I look back at the past few years of my reading, it seems like the few books that I stuck with were cancelled or ignored: Checkmate, The Shield, Magog were all killed right when they were getting good. Batgirl, Power Girl, Red Robin and Secret Six all fared somewhat better but the people I cared about reading, the stories I cared about enough to stick with 'til the end, are going away. Now I'm being asked to pick up these other stories with characters & storylines I may not care about, without even getting closure for the ones I did care about. At least Batman, Inc. is just getting delayed (and apparently shortened) but still -- that's taking my loyalty as a reader for granted. Which is kind of how I feel about DC at this point. They have not rewarded my loyalty to the characters and stories I cared about. Instead, they're eliminating them and asking me start over. Well, what if I don't want to? What if I wanted to finish these stories first, before moving on to something else? Near as I can tell, they don't care. It really feels like they honestly don't care about their audience anymore. Either that, or they don't understand them. I think they're gambling that the new/lapsed readers they pull in with this reboot will outweigh the readers they disenchant & turn away. That seems like one hell of a gamble, but I'm going to assume someone has a reason to believe it'll pay off. Maybe they're sitting on a bunch of marketing surveys that suggest this will work, or something. Or they're just blindly flailing for something, anything, that bumps up sales. I really get that impression from DC sometimes -- sales are bad, they don't know how to bring them back up, so let's try a reboot. That always drums up interest, right? It worked in '86, worked again in '04, then again whenever Infinite Crisis came out. But both the publishing world and comics fandom have changed drastically in just the past few years. Either they don't get that, or they're got some secret info that tells them this is what lots of readers want. My guess is the first one. Enough out of me. Like I said, I've never been more than a casual DC reader, so I shouldn't care much -- and yet, something about this whole thing bugs me. Ah well, rant over.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 19:36 |
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I just want to read The Flash again. I do not even care who The Flash is at this point, I just want a monthly comic that features one of the 5 most popular DC characters that doesn't get cancelled or severely hosed with each year. Like we had for nearly 20 years before they decided to start loving picking at the character like a scab that won't heal and just loving it up further. Just release a comic about my favorite character once a month and don't make it completely awful trash and I will buy it. Is this really that hard?
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 20:17 |
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Let me start this post off by 100% putting it straight out there that I am completely bias in my opinion, and that I am almost unabashedly looking forward to the relaunch and that the few things I've lost with this reboot pale in comparison to what I'm looking forward to. My passion in superhero comics had been dwindling fast as of late and I was basically just looking at chopping my pull list in third and picking up maybe 7 books at that point. The reboot put a hold on that. Now from this standpoint, I have to say that the rationale and the position many people hold in this thread (and in just general as well) has me shaking my head in disbelief and asking what the gently caress do you people really want? It really astounds me the things people will key in on to justify why they don't want to be involved in this reboot, continuity seeming to be the biggest factor near the end of the previous thread. People ask why DC needed the reboot, and someone responds that there is no good answer. That's a crock of poo poo, there are plenty of good reasons. Let's start at the beginning. DC sucked prior to this, I say this as a fan, I say this as a person who is willing to step up to bat for them, but outside of a few general islands of creativity there wasn't much that was any good.The relaunch, outside of a few complete misses (The Dark Knight, Hawk and Dove, Suicide Squad) looks world's ahead of what came before it. The Dark looks like the strongest line-up of titles I've seen out of DC or Marvel since I started reading comics. The Edge also looks quite strong outside of the exception of Voodoo and Suicide Squad. The few books that people liked and talked about are basically transitioning unimpeded, the only big exception being Batgirl. The trinity titles and the League are going from being in the hands of James Robinson and JMS to Azarrello, Morrison, and Johns. Don't even pretend that isn't a massive improvement. Very little of what we find here is anything other than an improvement on what came before. The level of quality in the creators and the pitches is more akin to what Marvel currently has than anything DC has put together under DiDio's watch. Which brings me to my next point, you say these are the same people who ruined DC the last 7 years? It isn't. Bob Harrass is EIC, Geoff Johns has a far greater say in the company, comparability DiDio has less of a say (He still has one, but it's broad and less intrusive), Harrass brought back Bobbie Chase (and another editor who's name escapes me at the moment) for the Batman books, Mike Carlin was fired, Eddie Berganza was promoted. This all happened within the last year. There are different people in charge, they have been given different marching orders and mandates. Will these changes in the upper echelons make for good changes? I don't know, chances are you probably don't either. But, there are different people with their fingers in the pie. To say otherwise is demonstrably untrue. So what's left to bitch about really? Continuity? I got burned for it before, but I will continue to scream it from the mountain tops "Who loving cares?". DC is constantly lambasted for how much of a confusing trainwreck it's continuity is. Not to mention how completely unappealing it is to new readers to jump into something like this. I get the feeling that most people have simply forgotten (or choose to ignore) the fact that this relaunch is not just for current and lapsed readers who are familiar with the characters and story lines, but for new readers. We underestimate what a #1 means to someone who doesn't read comics, and how much easier it is for someone who is hearing recommendations to hear something like "Oh you like Batman? You should read Batman #1". These things matter and I think a lot of people who are so completely down on the relaunch have completely lost perspective and don't seem to realize it's not about them. But, really what does it matter? The argument that continuity is a tool that can be utilized well is pointless when Grant Morrison and Johns have already proven that a story DOES NOT need to be in continuity to be used and built upon. And let's talk about things DC did get right, that never seem to come up in these threads. How about the digital initiative? An actual diversity of titles that extends past generic superhero fare and 3 or 4 Z-List titles utilizing forgotten properties? How about the shifting away from writing for the trade and 6 issue arcs? The phasing out of boring miserable talking head comics? Numbered trades? Television/Movie advertisements? How about diversity in the characters? Bitch about Babs all you want, but DC is publishing the most titles with a female, minority, or LGB lead than they ever have at one time. The Justice League has more women and people of color on it than 3 of the Avengers teams combined. Marvel is publishing three books with a female lead. DC is publishing 8. Marvel is publishing 2 books with the sole focus on a minority lead (1 if we count the fact that War Machine is barely even a character in his own comic.) DC is publishing 7. I'm not trying to make this a DC vs Marvel argument, but I am putting this into perspective. People are so convinced this will be a failure when so little points towards it being one. It's not perfect. I would never make the argument that it is. But, it will never be perfect. Nothing ever will, to believe it might be is stupid and unfeasible. But, this? This is a clear improvement, to treat is as anything other is just being petty.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 20:55 |
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The biggest flaw I see in that argument is that you place Morrison and Johns on the same level. I hate, almost without exception, everything Johns has done recently. I find his fanboyism for what he liked as a child not only unenjoyable to read, but actively damaging to my enjoyment of the entire line as he slowly gains more and more power and uses it to push things further to his direction. Bob Harris isn't exactly good news either and you only have to look at Marvel to find out why. I honestly don't see how you can say Johns getting more power is 'other people with their finger in the pie.' To be honest, I can't even see how you can say that for Morrison and I like Morrison a hell of a lot more then Johns. Morrison isn't a fresh newcomer. Hell, Batman Inc is one of the few series not getting slammed in the face by the retcon bomb. I certainly suspect Morrison will do better stories then Johns but this isn't a big status quo switchup. Edit: I won't discuss the role of minorities in comics but I will say that numbers are not the only thing you should look at. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 21:13 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:04 |
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ImpAtom posted:I hate, almost without exception, everything Johns has done recently. I find his fanboyism for what he liked as a child not only unenjoyable to read, but actively damaging to my enjoyment of the entire line as he slowly gains more and more power and uses it to push things further to his direction. I'm curious, what franchise has Johns actively ruined through his personal involvement? If you want to say Flash, you'd still be wrong because everything that came after Johns' first run and prior to his second run was actively loving terrible.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:09 |
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Semper Fudge posted:I'm curious, what franchise has Johns actively ruined through his personal involvement? If you want to say Flash, you'd still be wrong because everything that came after Johns' first run and prior to his second run was actively loving terrible. I find pretty much everything he's done in Green Lantern to be absolutely terrible. I used to be a big Hal Jordan fan and I've basically grown to loathe the character and the universe after Johns turned it into his personal wankfest of rainbow vomiting cats. I also find anything involved the new Barry Allen to be pretty bad, sorry. The fact that bad stuff came before doesn't mean that I find the return of Barry to be anything but tedious stupid bullshit. There has been nothing enjoyable about Barry Allen's return, and certainly not enough to undo a pretty masterful death and send Wally West to the void. In general, I don't like Johns style. It boils down to "Johns is a giant fanboy," but not in the likable and interesting way that Grant Morrison is. He seriously comes across like a 10 year old writing fanfiction about his favorite character most of the time. A lot of why I haven't enjoyed the DC universe lately can be kind of traced right back to him. He and Morrison are like Goofus and Gallent to me. One shows exactly how you should use continuity and a character's history and the other doesn't. I mean, as I said before, I don't really agree with Morrison's take on Superman. I can't say I'm looking forward to it. Regardless, I'm pretty drat sure Morrison is going to do a good job with it even if I don't personally enjoy it. Morrison seems to have honestly interesting ideas of what to do with his characters, even if I don't always agree with them. Johns is like a guy smashing action figures together. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 21:24 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:14 |
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In the broad sense, most of what you say is true, and the digital launch is absolutely a positive. I'd question including numbered trades because that's something DC is literally the last kid on the short bus regarding. Image, Marvel, Dark Horse, IDW all do it. Even Vertigo does it. But in terms of attracting lapsed readers (and Didio, as publisher, has stated this is not aimed at non-readers, but the lost masses from the '90s) there's a ton to like about this as a general marketing move. The diversity stakes are also a good call, both in content and representation (although I think you overstate Marvel's problems on that front, given teams like the FF and X-Men, although they could certainly be doing much better). However, that doesn't mean that everyone is going to be overwhelmingly positive. I'm hopeful my misgivings are the extreme minority and every single book sells 10 million copies by download, I really do. But that does not change the fact that I'm being denied closure on a lot of books (which could've been done if this had been planned at all in advance) and that a lot of the changes, continuity aside, are changes that I find less interesting than pre-reboot. I'm also, personally, at best interested in as many DC books as I was before, which doesn't bode well. And I say at best. Currently, I'm reading: - Action - Batgirl - Birds of Prey - 'Tec - Batman Inc. - Batman Beyond (I know...) - Booster Gold - Supergirl - Power Girl - Wonder Woman Post-reboot, let's look at those and my personal feelings based on what we know so far: - Action: Mildly curious but there's been as much negative as positive hype for me, and not a die-hard Morrison fan so will likely pass for now - Batgirl: I really like Simone, and not sure I've ever read anything by Pyaf, but I find the Oracle situation at best farcical and dumb, at worst offensive. Plus I was really enjoying the pre-boot series. Pass. - BoP: Wasn't earth-shattering, but I didn't see the train-wreck some apparently felt it was. Duane's run will likely be good. Maybe - 'Tec: Will likely get Batman, but Snyder's hyping of the run actually makes me less interested with all the talk of Gotham's past and tying into Gates of Gotham (the flashbacks have been the dullest part of that.) - Batman Inc.: Gone for now. - Batman Beyond: Gone for now. (And I'll admit Beechen's writing has been awful, but I can't help myself.) - Booster Gold: Gone, and I'm very meh on JLI considering it's Jurgens. Giffen or Winick, I'd be all in, but meh. - Supergirl: At least SDCC let them run some damage control on this but this is another miss for me. - Power Girl: Gone and replaced by Mr Terrific. I applaud more books starring characters of colour, but I have no interest. - Wonder Woman : Odyssey was doomed nearly from the start, although Hester's done what he could. Will Azz and Chiang be better? Maybe. But I'm out for the beginning unless I hear amazing things. From 10 books, I'm down to one. Add in Stormwatch and Batwoman, and the maybes above and possibly Demon Knights. That's 6, and three of those are iffy. And maybe that's their goal. More people buying fewer books. But here's the thing. Unless this is a success of astronomical proportions? I'm down to 3 by next year regardless, because in the current kind of climate, Demon Knights, and I'd guess one of JLI, BoP or Stormwatch is cancelled by #12. To reiterate, nothing you've said is really incorrect. And in the broad sense, you're hopefully dead on, I want comics to survive and flourish. But for specific readers? If we're not excited about the new stuff and are disappointed that the stuff we liked is being abandoned, that's not wrong either. Maybe it's a sign DC are on the right track, but it doesn't suck any less if your favourite writer/artist/series/character is getting the shaft. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 21:29 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:21 |
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I quite like Johns' Green Lantern and I find his style of revitalizing properties by boiling it down to it's core elements and emphasizing simple concepts in extravagant ways is entertaining and helps me remember what it was I liked about the characters before they completely lost the plot and while he is not without his flaws (Mostly a gloom and doom atmosphere that permeates some of his more recent work), I find his writing to have more personality and more intrigue in it than the rank and file, and at the very least I am rarely bored while reading his work. Uh-oh conflicting opinions! I'm not sure where this argument is supposed to lead, you personally don't care for Johns and therefor everything is hosed? I don't care for Bendis and Fraction in the least either, yet that does not somehow make the good books at Marvel any less good. There are 49 other writers in the reboot that aren't Geoff Johns. Some of them are quite good. Johns' boost at DC does not extend to just his corners of the universe, he was instrumental in bringing Snyder and Lemire to DC. He's a man who is well liked and respected by the comics community and brings that same level of appreciation to his co-workers than someone like DiDio. Yes, I would like to see that man have more power than another abusive editor.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:26 |
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quote:I get the feeling that most people have simply forgotten (or choose to ignore) the fact that this relaunch is not just for current and lapsed readers who are familiar with the characters and story lines, but for new readers. We underestimate what a #1 means to someone who doesn't read comics, and how much easier it is for someone who is hearing recommendations to hear something like "Oh you like Batman? You should read Batman #1". I don't read hero books, and certainly the weight of continuity is a huge turnoff in terms of jumping on board. I definitely enjoy superhero stuff in other media: The DCU and X-men TV shows, a lot of the films etc. This and general osmosis from the internet has given me an awareness a few of the major plotlines in various continuities: I know what the phoenix saga is, I know crisis on infinite earths happened, I can tell you if a particular character is marvel or DC. I've read the odd acclaimed standalone like Arkham asylum, and where the main DCU has intersected with titles I did read (mainly vertigo) I know roughly how things fit. But I simply don't know where to start when it comes to getting to grips with heroes in their native medium in mainline continuity. There's just too MUCH, and it's too convoluted (DC is especially egregious in this respect, with their constant budding off of alternate universes.) A reboot, especially if it comes with an affordable digital subscription model, might be just the thing to get me interested. There's already a couple of titles that pique my interest because of the writer: I loved Pete Milligans Shade from the early 90s and might check out his Justice League Dark (especially as it will have a new version OF Shade in it, will be interesting to see differences and similarities), and everyone is always raving about Gail Simone plus what I've read of her critical writings on hero books has been really interesting. I know they've done various runs on super hero comics before, but I've been reluctant to just jump in in case I end up completely lost due to starting in the wrong place. Does anyone know what the digital subscription model will be? I can't be doing with paper comics these days, they just take up too much space and are an arse to store.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:27 |
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Semper Fudge posted:So what's left to bitch about really? Continuity? I got burned for it before, but I will continue to scream it from the mountain tops "Who loving cares?". DC cares. DC cares, arguably, more about continuity than they do original stories. This thread has been three pages of discussing that. Also, you can't have legacy characters (Hal Jordan, Barry Allen) without continuity.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:30 |
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Semper Fudge posted:Lots of words you should read. Just want to say: Thank you for this. I agree. People bitching about continuity and what will be kept and what won't seem to be missing the picture (though DC hasn't really tried hard to make it clearer). Whatever came before doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to be able to understand things now. If you didn't know that Superman lost his powers for some stupid reason 8 years ago it won't impeach on your understanding on what is going on now. Continuity is a big hinderance for new readers. Reading a title that constantly refers to stuff that happened in the past, relying on the readers knowledge of past big events can alienate a lot of people. What DC is doing is trying to attract new readers. They are also trying to keep their old readers by saying some stuff did happen. What stuff are the keeping? We don't fully know except for a few events, and it shouldn't matter if we know everything they are keeping or not. Whatever we need to know will be revealed with future issues. It will probably be in a "wink wink" kind of way that won't take anything away from the story or leave new readers scratching their heads. Good. I am sad to see some titles go bye-bye, and some characters change into something I don't recognise, but I can always re-read old comics if I want to be reminded of what it was like to have one Firestorm or something like that. If I don't like any new titles I won't need to read them.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:32 |
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Parmesan Basil posted:DC cares. DC cares, arguably, more about continuity than they do original stories. This thread has been three pages of discussing that. Also, you can't have legacy characters (Hal Jordan, Barry Allen) without continuity. ...Sure you can. Especially in those cases, where there's no actual connection beyond loose inspiration (in-story and real life). If you think an architect or graphic artist is a better concept for GL than a bland pilot, then great, but continuity isn't the real problem in that kind of case. Madkal posted:Just want to say: Thank you for this. I agree. People bitching about continuity and what will be kept and what won't seem to be missing the picture (though DC hasn't really tried hard to make it clearer). Whatever came before doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to be able to understand things now. If you didn't know that Superman lost his powers for some stupid reason 8 years ago it won't impeach on your understanding on what is going on now. This, however, annoys the gently caress out of me, because it's assuming the reboot is needed to write comics the way they're supposed to be written! I don't see anything inherently wrong with there being callbacks or backstory when you jump into a series with history, as long as the relevant stuff is explained well enough for the current story. The claim is this will happen with anything that's carrying over. Guess what? That's how it should (and often does) work now! The only difference is it's now not 'continuity' but 'backstory'. If they want a clean slate, great, and I get that the big numbers and backstory can be intimidating, but unless you ditch the idea of stuff building from arc to arc, the problem isn't going to go away, and the theory that this is the only solution is ridiculous. A story that relies on history that isn't explained isn't steeped in big bad continuity. It's badly written. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 21:41 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:34 |
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Semper Fudge posted:I quite like Johns' Green Lantern and I find his style of revitalizing properties by boiling it down to it's core elements and emphasizing simple concepts in extravagant ways is entertaining and helps me remember what it was I liked about the characters before they completely lost the plot and while he is not without his flaws (Mostly a gloom and doom atmosphere that permeates some of his more recent work), I find his writing to have more personality and more intrigue in it than the rank and file, and at the very least I am rarely bored while reading his work. It's not supposed to lead anywhere in particular. I think the problem is that what you see as positive isn't positive for everyone. I don't really see this as a big change or a positive. Johns has been a pretty guiding force at DC for quite some time now and him getting more power is only going to exacerbate the problems I saw. Despite the fact that it makes no sense, Johns is getting to keep his GL playbox. Even though Green Lantern is very high on the list of properties that could really have used a reboot if simply because it has so much ridiculous and often conflicting continuity that Johns loves to call back to. Not to mention that the GL movie just launched so that is one property they should really be trying to simplify for new readers. Morrison is also keeping Batman Inc but even that is getting hit harder then GL thanks to Barbara and Dick and such. So... yeah, sorry. That doesn't give me a good feeling about Johns that he's keeping his playground around because it is his. I'm sure he's a nice guy. I've read tons of stuff about how he's a solid and nice individual. There may be other books, but Johns is the guy with the power, and he's not someone who I think uses that power in a way I think benefits the in-comic universe. (Again, I've heard nothing but positive about how he interacts with creators.)
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:34 |
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I know almost nothing about Harras, but I'd feel a lot better about the reboot if it were him going around saying that the reboot is him trying to shake off the cruft and get a diverse DCU going in a direction more open to new readers. If the reboot reinvigorates writers and characters, leading to great new stories, then it will all be worth it. The problem is that DC has become the poster child for poor management and editorial interference, and this reboot really shows those fingerprints all over it.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:38 |
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ImpAtom posted:It's not supposed to lead anywhere in particular. I think the problem is that what you see as positive isn't positive for everyone. I don't really see this as a big change or a positive. Johns has been a pretty guiding force at DC for quite some time now and him getting more power is only going to exacerbate the problems I saw. Even if you don't like Johns and the role he plays there are still a lot of titles out there that don't have his hand in them. A lot of these titles seem to be the ones that won't get a lot of notice so perhaps pick them up instead. DC Dark and DC Edge seem to be the most interesting ones without having a Johns influence in them (or so it seems).
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:39 |
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ImpAtom posted:It's not supposed to lead anywhere in particular. I think the problem is that what you see as positive isn't positive for everyone. I don't really see this as a big change or a positive. Johns has been a pretty guiding force at DC for quite some time now and him getting more power is only going to exacerbate the problems I saw.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:39 |
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I've always found it daunting to get into any series, even if I'm familiar with the material. It just takes a while for me to find a reading groove and feel like I'm moving at the same pace as everyone else. It's much like getting into a tv show already going on: I'm easily able to netflix past episodes and get caught up, but even then I'd need to re-adjust to the pace of release after binging for so long. Or, failing that, I just hop in and let the past material reveal itself to me as needed (falling into habits of asking friends who "that guy" is, etc). ALL comics feel this daunting to me, be it obscure characters I have never heard of, or the most famous characters of the big two. At the very least, the relaunch's goal of making people feel like they're on the ground floor is VERY appealing to me. I've never read Animal Man, Blue Beetle, Jonah Hex, or countless other heroes like that before (ie: not in the top tier), but I finally feel like I have a shot because of this effort. Whether I actually LIKE these books and keep buying remains to be seen, but I think I'm going to end up buying a huge chunk of #1's and see what interests me. If I end up wanting to keep reading a lot of titles, I may have to buy quite a few digitally to save space, but in the end I'll be reading more and that's something I've wanted for a long time. Space_Butler fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 21:45 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:42 |
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Semper Fudge posted:To be fair, I did say right off the bat that I didn't know whether or not these changes would be beneficial, but I was just saying that there are different people in charge now and to say that it's all the same lunatics running the mad house is simply untrue. Well, like I said, I've see Johns as basically in-control for a while now so it doesn't seem a big switch to me. I honestly do hope you enjoy it. Hell, maybe I'll be proven wrong and I'll find this new stuff really enjoyable. Certainly can't be worse then Grounded or whatever.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:43 |
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Space_Butler posted:I've always found it daunting to get into any series, even if I'm familiar with the material. It just takes a while for me to find a reading groove and feel like I'm moving at the same pace as everyone else. It's much like getting into a tv show already going on: I'm easily able to netflix past episodes and get caught up, but even then I'd need to re-adjust to the pace of release after binging for so long. Or, failing that, I just hop in and let the past material reveal itself to me as needed (falling into the asking friends who "that guy" is, etc). ALL comics feel this daunting to me, be it obscure characters I have never heard of, or the most famous characters of the big two.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 21:46 |
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I can't find this info anywhere else so hopefully goons to the rescue. Post-September which books are the following writers working on - Morrison (Action Comics, I know, anything else?), Johns, Cornell, JMS & Snyder? And if these guys aren't covering them who's writing the main Flash & Green Lantern books? Also Morrison on a reboot of Superman  , this is absolutely THE best news that could have come out of the reboot, All-Star Superman is ridiculously good and I'm confident Morrison will deliver the goods.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:15 |
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ColdIronsBound posted:I can't find this info anywhere else so hopefully goons to the rescue. Johns - Justice League, Aquaman, Green Lantern Cornell - Demon Knights, Stormwatch (seriously read both of these) JMS - Only doing original graphic novels from now on, so absolutely nothing  Snyder - Batman (edit: and Swamp Thing) Flash will have Francis Manapul writing and doing part of the art. Space_Butler fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 22:23 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:19 |
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ColdIronsBound posted:I can't find this info anywhere else so hopefully goons to the rescue. Morrison is eventually finishing Inc/Leviathan and is doing Multiversity next year, but so far, Action is it. Johns is on Green Lantern, Justice League and Aquaman. Cornell has Stormwatch and Demon Knights (think medieval Justice League). Snyder's doing Batman and Swamp Thing. JMS is doing the Superman: Earth One sequel and finishing The Twelve for Marvel and that's all. Edit: Beaten, but I remembered Swamp Thing. 
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:21 |
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Semper Fudge, I just don't see what's so clearly world's ahead. JLA: Johns is a terrible writer, not a fan of Lee. Action: I've give it a chance but Moz better say something different and not help gently caress over the S&S estates. Supes: Boring art, not reading Supes moping over a girl in 2011. Superboy: Angst, moping, not for me. Supergirl: Angst not appealing to me. Not Brian Wood. Bats: Solid but if they play up the URBAN LEGEND past bullshit it's going to annoy me a lot. 'tec: Hahaha. B&R: Team not exciting me. Batgirl: Don't like Simone, am disabled so... TDK: Hahaha. Nightwing: Demotion doesn't sit well, dumb costume, team not exactly inspiring. Batwoman: Hope the writing matches the art in quality. 'tec run was actually slightly boring. Red Hood: Grimdark, lovely art, Single father is perhaps Roy's only interesting angle, Starfire has less clothes? WW: Mildly interesting, Azzarello up and down on capes, pretty though, retractable pants, would like an actual feminist take on her. GL: Johns. Waste of Mahnke. GLC: Not excited by team. RLC: Milligan's bipolar, is Benes on art? Flash: Pretty but unproven writing team. Barry Allen. Aquaman: Johns. Not a fan of the artist. Hawkman: Hahahaha. Hawk & Dove: Hahahahaha. GA: Team's mediocre, prefer Ollie as older guy w/ kids. Firestorm: Simone and a McCarthy apologist, not exciting me. Mr. Terrific: Interesting but Wallace wrote an awful Titans. Cap Atom: Team not making me care. OMAC: Eh, Didio's utter poo poo, Giffen up and down recently, looks dece at least. Teen Titans: A writer who peaked in the 90s, dire art (going from Nicola Scott to this?), premise not gripping. JLI: Jurgens is just boring. Blue Beetle: Bedard's tolerable but has been saying the wrong things (having an understanding family and a caring support network was too easy on him). Static: Writer's decent but usually dislike McDaniel. (Not Xombi.) BoP: D-Swyz interesting, premise and roster not at moment. Awful redesigns. DC Presents: Case by case thing I guess. Deathstroke: Hahaha. Suicide Squad: Those redesigns, seriously? Also, Glass hasn't written anything good for DC so far, not very SS-y. Grifter: Hmm, pretty neutral. Voodoo: Art's pretty but releasing strip pages first? Suddenly bi? Ron Marz, twitter arsehole, also of Witchblade and GL fridging fame writing a black woman? Fuc'outtahere. Men At War: Looks decent. Not usually my thing though. Blackhawks: Seems redundant a bit. All Star Western: Looks okay, not sure about Gotham angle though. Stormwatch: Interesting but I'm a bit soured on Cornell due to Knight and Squire. JLD: Looks okay, hope it's good. Frankie: FP mini by same author boring as poo poo Animal Man: Looks good. Swamp Thing: Looks solid, going to have to be great after awful re-introduction. Vampire: Surprisingly gorgeous but unproven writer. DK: See Stormwatch. Res. Man: I hope it's good, but I'm not feeling it for some reason. I don't know why. Weird. Ignore me on this one. I'm sure I'm missing something but I'm not seeing a major improvement or talent influx here or much of the promised diversity. I guess slightly less poo poo comics (possibly) at the expense of some of my favourite characters and their family history along with pretty much the only decent disabled hero of true note in comics being magically cured. However, at the end of the day, I want good, affordable comics and don't think DC has done anywhere near enough of that with this relaunch. DC still looks inept to me. Not good enough, IMO. Of course, this is all conjecture but so is any positive opinion. (Sorry for length.) EDIT: Whoa, that took me ages. Illvillainy fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 22:46 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:42 |
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Now do that again for the current list of ongoings. It is so much worse.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:47 |
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Semper Fudge posted:Now do that again for the current list of ongoings. It is so much worse.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 22:57 |
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Admittedly, the "but the current ongoings suck!" thing is a pretty compelling argument, since I realized that I currently don't read any ongoings, but I'm at least interested in a handful of the new books. The one I'm most interested in (Demon Knights) will probably be canceled in a year, but still.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:00 |
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Things I like about the reboot: -Cry for Justice erased -Which means Ryan Choi is back! And apparently in the JLA -Amazons Attack erased -Some interesting concepts like JL Dark and Stormwatch. -Surprisingly, I'm looking forward to the rebooted Teen Titans. Things that I don't like: -Fitting everything important that has happened to every character into five years. -Mopey alien Superman. -Bitchy alien Supergirl. Didn't we get this out of our systems after Loeb already? -Everyone dislikes aliens and superheroes. Very, very boring to me. -Heck, maybe 40-50% of the hard reboots, like Birds of Prey and Suicide Squad, seem incredibly ridiculous. -Stephanie's Spoiler again, while Oracle's Batgirl. Jesus loving...everything about that is aggravating, it should take up like five bullet points on this list. -Absence of many characters that I love like Wally, Cass Cain, Connor Hawke. On that note, the entire concept seems to be somewhat anti-"legacy hero" as a rule, which is anathema to me because I absolutely love legacy heroes.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:00 |
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We're clearly not on the same page, so we're not going to see eye to eye on the assumed quality of these books. So there's no point in continuing this part of the discussion. However, the quality of the books was only a small part of my argument.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:01 |
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Illvillainy posted:Semper Fudge, I just don't see what's so clearly world's ahead. In general, I'd really like to hear from people who are buying around 10+ DC books per month that think this relaunch will have killed their pull list. I feel like many of the people decrying the new books aren't heavy readers to begin with. I could be wrong, but there's a lot of complaints about the characters and the mythology but not many comments like "I was pulling 15 books a month but I can't really find more than 3 I want to read after the relaunch". It's an intellectual objection rather than a material, sales objection. Not that you HAVE to be a buyer to have an opinion, but it certainly won't affect DC negatively if you weren't a Superman reader and still aren't going to be. Example: I'm a Batgirl reader and won't be buying the relaunched Batgirl. I also think Catwoman looks dumb, but I wasn't reading Gotham City Sirens to begin with, so they didn't truly "lose" me as a reader, just as a POTENTIAL reader. Space_Butler fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:13 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:02 |
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BrianWilly posted:-Absence of many characters that I love like Wally, Cass Cain, Connor Hawke. On that note, the entire concept seems to be somewhat anti-"legacy hero" as a rule, which is anathema to me because I absolutely love legacy heroes.
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| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:05 |
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Jaime and Choi look likely to be being presented as the ONLY Beetle/Atom, so that's not quite true.Semper Fudge posted:Now do that again for the current list of ongoings. It is so much worse. OK. Obviously my tastes differ a bit from Illvillainy, but I actually think this could be an interesting exercise: Action: Doomsday storyline is blah, but enjoying Cornell's take for the most part. Adventure: Only cared about the Threeboot Legion. Batgirl: Possibly my favourite title, period, right now. Batman: Not reading, Daniel's run seems almost like a bad parody from what I've seen. Batman & Robin: Seen a few good things, just not personally grabbed. Batman: TDK: AHAHAHA Batman Beyond: I've copped to this. It's poorly written, but the plotting and the setting/characters are enough that I'll put up with it. Totally get anyone who pans it though. Batman Inc.: Been sort of hit or miss, though more hit for me. Oracle and Batgirl issues are gonna be bittersweet. Birds of Prey: Was enjoying. Not top of my pile or anything, but fun. Booster Gold: Preferred Giffen et al's run. Nothing wrong with Jurgens and he's entitled to this if anything, but meh. 'Tec: Been enjoying the James Jr arc a lot. Doc Savage: No opinion really. Doc's never really appealed to me. Flash: Pretty but Barry's bland and the 'Central City's so FAST' shtick is irritating. Gotham Sirens: Has been rocky, pre-reboot creative has stepped up a notch. Green Arrow: Forest idea is dumb. GL: Never really been into GL GLC: Ditto GLEW: See above Jonah Hex: Love Westerns, like artists, and writing team. Not reading, but hope to get trades. JLA: Never been into the JLA as a group. Individual members, sure, but not the team. LoSH: See Adventure. Power Girl: Great series. Winick a bit more uneven than the first run, but still fun. Red Robin: Have several friends who SWEAR by this book, and I've got a lot of time for Nicieza. The Spirit: Been enjoying Hine's run. Superboy: Was decent when reading but not enough to keep it when I had to drop stuff. Supergirl: Was intrigued by Deconnick's first issue Superman: Liked Wilson's issue. Hated first part of Grounded, heard positives about Roberson. Superman/Batman: Variable by nature. Enjoyed lighter stories, like Supergirl/Robin team-up earlier this year. Teen Titans: Heard some positives about Krul, and Solstice/Miss Martian seemed like sorely needed bright spots. Titans: Seemed so OTT that it had to be a joke when I looked. If not, then awful. Wonder Woman: Messy, but Hester showed flashes of something I'd have liked to see him try solo. Zatanna: Bland when I read it, and semi-redundant. But not terrible. This is based on Wikipedia's listing of current series. I count 8-9 books I like enough to stick with, admittedly with at least one case where it's against my own better taste. Space_Butler posted:You took plenty of books that you had no real complaints about and still complained about them (ie: Batman. You were really reaching for that "urban legend" complaint considering the urban legend angle is only meant to explain his past prior to JLA, not his current status quo. Snyder isn't even considering the relaunch to be a relaunch from his POV outside of the changover from Dick to Bruce). So, what are you reading right now that you love but think will be affected by this? Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:17 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:13 |
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Space_Butler posted:At the very least, the relaunch's goal of making people feel like they're on the ground floor is VERY appealing to me. I get the opposite reaction. From where I stand, being back on the ground floor wouldn't be so bad if DC was going back to the beginning to try something new and different. But all the evidence seems to indicate that they're not. Sure, there's a handful of original titles, but does anyone really expect that there's a Superman story out there that just couldn't have been told without this reboot? And how many Superman stories can we tell a second time (to clear up continuity, of course) now that we're back at the beginning? I guess it doesn't matter anyway since I'm a trades reader and DC thinks I'm the devil incarnate for not buying their monthly releases. Speaking of which, I know it's two years out, but is DC going to start numbering their trades for The New 52? EDIT: Corrected first section to not sound like a complete dick. JustV fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:25 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:19 |
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JustV posted:
Gaz-L fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:22 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:20 |
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Space_Butler posted:You took plenty of books that you had no real complaints about and still complained about them (ie: Batman. You were really reaching for that "urban legend" complaint considering the urban legend angle is only meant to explain his past prior to JLA, not his current status quo. Snyder isn't even considering the relaunch to be a relaunch from his POV outside of the changover from Dick to Bruce). So, what are you reading right now that you love but think will be affected by this? Consider this though, the books I'm considering looking at (besides Action but that's a Moz book and Stormwatch perhaps) don't seem to rely on the in-universe reboot. I'm not raging (besides about Babs), just sad connections I really like (Connor Hawke is probably gone) are disappearing and just find the talent at DC incredibly shallow still. I'm feeling more meh than mad. I'd love to be wrong and I hope digital comics flourish and become affordable but beyond that side this feels more potential disaster then potential triumph. EDIT: Oh, and I've not minded the Batgirl issues I've read. Illvillainy fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:29 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:24 |
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Gaz-L posted:Allegedly, yes. Then I guess this whole thing may be worth it after all. JustV fucked around with this message at Jul 26, 2011 around 23:30 |
| # ? Jul 26, 2011 23:27 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 19:51 |
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JustV posted:I get the opposite reaction. From where I stand, being back on the ground floor wouldn't be so bad if DC was going back to the beginning to try something new and different. But all the evidence seems to indicate that they're not. Sure, there's a handful of original titles, but does anyone really expect that there's a Superman story out there that just couldn't have been told without this reboot? And how many Superman stories can we tell a second time (to clear up continuity, of course) now that we're back at the beginning? This also allows readers to be reintroduced to Lex Luthor. Originally he was a mad scientist, and then after the reboot he was a businessman (and later politician). Morrison will probably reimagine him again to be relevant to this new continuity, and that can change the dynamic quite a bit. In fact, Morrison has already said he intends to write this Luthor as being more in the right than he is in the wrong, at least initially. Beyond that, yeah retreading Parasite/Metallo/Bizarro/etc might be tiresome, but the promise of this new run makes me feel more like a new Superman cartoon is about to premiere as opposed to us getting yet another half-retconned Superman. I definitely don't like the love triangle returning and I still think Ma Kent being dead is a huge mistake because it can't easily be undone, but there's always something about every Superman origin reboot I don't like so it would've been something else if not this. And for reference, I'm strictly speaking about Morrison in regards to the new Superman. From the preview panels I've seen of Perez's book, he seems way over his head and shouldn't be anywhere near the title. Illvillainy posted:I said if, man. Just qualifying what would turn me off. What I'm reading? As in 4 books on and off? Well, Dick at Bats in 'tec I guess. What I'm hoping to write is another thing but that's not an good argument.
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| # ? Jul 27, 2011 00:07 |
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