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DeimosRising
Oct 17, 2005

¡Hola SEA!

paulnewmanseyes posted:

Yes they do, if the margins are higher. They charge to maximise profit, not income, and given the lack of, y'know, printing the drat things, profit maximisation should be easier - far easier - for digital, and would almost certainly occur at a lower price.

Without apple's share, probably. But the market of people buying paper books still isn't the one they're aiming for here. Even if they can maximize profit on those buyers at a lower price point in digital, they have probably already maximized profit on those buyers at the current price point in paper - unless those buyers can be convinced to buy the same books with a higher profit margin, or more books at the same margin, all you're doing is investing in marketing and developing a new channel for delivering the same goods to, in the end, receive the same revenue. The question for them, basically, is, if you switch to digital and each book is cheaper, will you then use the savings to buy more money? Presumably they think you won't. Or, can you be tricked/convinced into buying the same thing in a cheaper to produce format at the same price or a price that yields a higher margin? This is the one they're gunning for, though only as a side pot on the larger gamble of getting new or lapsed readers to pick up the hobby via downloads.

DeimosRising fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2011 around 17:47

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bonds0097
Oct 23, 2010

I would cry but I don't think I can spare the moisture.

DeimosRising posted:

But perfectly sane to pay 3 bucks for a 22 page paper comic that will take you 20 minutes or less to read?

Since you're all about the freemarket, here's the deal - they'll charge you what you'll pay, and if you won't pay it for digital but will for paper, they don't give a poo poo. Unless you are planning on dropping all your paper comics for being too expensive, it makes no difference to DC if you choose not to purchase digital comics. There almost certainly is a market that would START reading comics digitally at a cheaper price point and won't do so at this one, but if you're already reading paper books, they have no incentive whatsoever to offer you a cheaper alternative.

I did not mean to imply that I purchase comics, paper or otherwise. I did mean to imply that I might purchase digital comics if the price was more reasonable. My freemarket argument, if we'll call it that, is that the price that DC is charging for Digital Comics isn't what people will pay, it's more than what people will pay, and will therefore do nothing to combat comic piracy.

Part of my freemarket principles is the idea that intellectual property is nothing more than government-enforced monopoly in order to create artificial scarcity of otherwise non-scarce and infinitely reproducible goods (like music and the like). As such, if I buy music, or a video game, or any other IP product, it's because I want to directly support the creators because due to the lovely present monetization models of IP, they get screwed over when people pirate their stuff. It's not really my problem, but if I like a creator enough then I can get over my libertarian principles and shell out cash to buy their stuff. However, I don't have any moral qualms against what we call online piracy and to be honest, its legal status if largely irrelevant to me.

However, while I like Greg Morrison and Warren Ellis and would like to support them, I don't want to support them enough to warrant a $3 expenditure for a 22-page comic; whereas I'm perfectly happy to shell out $7 or $10 for an album I'll listen to literally hundred of times or pay X amount of money for a video game (particularly an indie one) from which I'll usually get CX hours of enjoyment (where C is a positive integer greater or equal to 1).

See, when you have differentiated goods like IP stuff or brand-name stuff, companies can be price-setters. Coca-Cola can charge whatever the market will bear because I can't get Coke any other way (not that I drink Coke but you get the point). On the other hand DC can't charge whatever the market will bear because to many other people, comics are a perfectly elastic good that has an easy-to-find perfect substitute available (scanned comics).

In the end, I'm approaching this from a different perspective than you. I'm thinking, how is DC going to convince people that currently don't buy paper comics because $3 is too much to buy digital comics? The answer, to my mind, is to charge less than $3. Clearly, DC does not agree, and that's fine but I think it's a poor move from a profit-maximizing perspective.

As a caveat, I'm really not trying to turn this thread into a discussion of libertarianism or intellectual property rights, but the topic keeps on being brought back up. In the interest of all those that would rather just talk about superheroes and whether they should be married/single and/or strippers, I'd rather end this discussion, move it to PM's or God Forbid take it to D&D rather than clutter up this thread. My apologies for what clutter has already been generated since I was the one that initially broached the topic.

Semper Fudge
Feb 19, 2009

Pitchfork was wrong. (f)lowers of Algerbong is crap.

On a slightly different note, check out these new Flash pages from Manapul:



mandrakk
Dec 4, 2010


If I can pay $3 for a cd on amazon that I'll listen to a million times, then why would I pay $3 for a cheeseburger that only takes me 5 minutes to eat? Because here is the math equation I live my life by:

Quality of product = Amount of time spent enjoying product / cost

StumblyWumbly
Sep 12, 2007


bonds0097 posted:

It's not really my problem, but if I like a creator enough then I can get over my libertarian principles and shell out cash to buy their stuff. However, I don't have any moral qualms against what we call online piracy and to be honest, its legal status if largely irrelevant to me.
Your libertarian principles are hilarious.

E: Also, DC just spent a year holding the line at $2.99 while Marvel charged $3.99 for half their stuff. It really didn't matter because the market is a bit more complicated than 'less money = more readers'.

Semper Fudge
Feb 19, 2009

Pitchfork was wrong. (f)lowers of Algerbong is crap.

Some more art,

Capullo's Batman:





Morales' Action Comics:



Chiang's Wonder Woman:





Perez/Merino's Superman:


Manhke's Sinestro:




Also, some colored and lettered Aquaman pages here: [Link]

Only posting these because to see them you need to scan a number of QR-Codes from DC advertisements with your phone.

Flameingblack
May 11, 2011

The world is a mess
And I am the one
Who will rebuild it


mandrakk posted:

If I can pay $3 for a cd on amazon that I'll listen to a million times, then why would I pay $3 for a cheeseburger that only takes me 5 minutes to eat? Because here is the math equation I live my life by:

Quality of product = Amount of time spent enjoying product / cost
Yes, well I don't eat comic books or digital CDs, so we're running into a problem somewhere.

bonds0097
Oct 23, 2010

I would cry but I don't think I can spare the moisture.

mandrakk posted:

If I can pay $3 for a cd on amazon that I'll listen to a million times, then why would I pay $3 for a cheeseburger that only takes me 5 minutes to eat? Because here is the math equation I live my life by:

Quality of product = Amount of time spent enjoying product / cost

I'm sorry, but are you retarded? In what world do you live in that music and cheeseburgers are substitute goods?

I don't know if you realize this but the various forms of entertainment do in fact compete with each other as imperfect substitutes. Entertainment and food, do not. But you're welcome to try and eat your CD.

StumblyWumbly posted:

Your libertarian principles are hilarious.

Fair enough, you're welcome to dismiss me without actually really understanding what I'm saying (and even more welcome to dismiss me once we've had a real discussion and I've laid out exactly what it is I consider to be my principles), that's basically how things work these days anyhow.

StumblyWumbly posted:

E: Also, DC just spent a year holding the line at $2.99 while Marvel charged $3.99 for half their stuff. It really didn't matter because the market is a bit more complicated than 'less money = more readers'.

Well, that's a bit of a Straw Man since I never implied that 'less money = more readers' was the whole story and that all comic book economics devolved to this. But yes, I agree that the comic book industry is more complicated than that, thanks for refuting an argument that hadn't actually been made.

EDIT: You know, at the end of the day all I was saying is that I think DC charging 3 dollars for digital comics is too much money and I that won't be buying them. That's really it. It seems clear that a lot of people (perhaps even enough people for 3 dollars to actually be the profit maximizing price for digital comics) are happy to spend that kind of money for the product in question and more power to them, beyond that this discussion is pretty pointless I guess so I'll just leave it at that.

bonds0097 fucked around with this message at Jul 29, 2011 around 20:34

paulnewmanseyes
Mar 8, 2008

I wish I had Paul Newman's eyes
That would be nice.

DeimosRising posted:

Without apple's share, probably. But the market of people buying paper books still isn't the one they're aiming for here. Even if they can maximize profit on those buyers at a lower price point in digital, they have probably already maximized profit on those buyers at the current price point in paper - unless those buyers can be convinced to buy the same books with a higher profit margin, or more books at the same margin, all you're doing is investing in marketing and developing a new channel for delivering the same goods to, in the end, receive the same revenue. The question for them, basically, is, if you switch to digital and each book is cheaper, will you then use the savings to buy more money? Presumably they think you won't. Or, can you be tricked/convinced into buying the same thing in a cheaper to produce format at the same price or a price that yields a higher margin? This is the one they're gunning for, though only as a side pot on the larger gamble of getting new or lapsed readers to pick up the hobby via downloads.

Yeah, but there are price points between "Same price, higher profit" and "Same profit, lower price". Namely, there is a price - a whole spread of prices, in fact - which are cheaper than paper comics, but earn DC more money per comic than paper comics. Not charging these prices for digital comics is only justified by the belief that the direct market increases the amount of comics that its customers buy more than the sum total of all the extra customers and money that digital could bring in if the price was lower.
What I'm saying is that (for the sake of argument) $3 paper comic and $1 digital comic both produce $0.50 profit for DC. If that is the case, however, $3 digital comic produces $2.50 profit and $2 digital comic produces $1.50 profit. DC right now is offering a price point that may well get them vastly more profit per comic, but has minimal chance of convincing someone to switch. If they were to sell their comics at $2, however, then for every person who switched from paper to digital, they would get three times the cash, even if that person didn't use the money they saved to buy new comics.

StumblyWumbly
Sep 12, 2007


Going to derailed

Captain Corduroy
Mar 30, 2007

We find the source of the problem, and we throw dragons at it.


Earnest question: is Wonder Woman a lesbian or is that her roommate or something

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

I just wanted to talk about the comics, see? All those shitty, amazing comics


Captain Corduroy posted:

Earnest question: is Wonder Woman a lesbian or is that her roommate or something
Gonna go out on a limb and when someone wakes up and is all WHO THE gently caress ARE YOU and chokes the other person in the room, the person being choked might not be their girlfriend.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Watch that tongue... sticky!


Captain Corduroy posted:

Earnest question: is Wonder Woman a lesbian or is that her roommate or something

I assume it is someone who snuck into her room, perhaps a friend. Pretty drat unlikely it's her girlfriend, especially since she seems to be showing "Hey, look, I got in using this key."

Dan Didio
Apr 6, 2009


Edge & Christian posted:

the person being choked might not be their girlfriend.

I don't know, man, this is Wonder Woman we're talking about.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Dan Didio posted:

I don't know, man, this is Wonder Woman we're talking about.

Hey, there's no evidence for that! Bondage, yes, bisexuality, yes, spanking, yes, but there's nothing about breathplay! I don't even think Marston knew about it!

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

I just wanted to talk about the comics, see? All those shitty, amazing comics


I hope we use this line of reasoning for every scene where someone is startled in their home in the future. "Man, is Green Arrow gay? If not, then why is SOME DUDE in his apartment?"

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Edge & Christian posted:

I hope we use this line of reasoning for every scene where someone is startled in their home in the future. "Man, is Green Arrow gay? If not, then why is SOME DUDE in his apartment?"

He couldn't resist those burly sideburns, duh?

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002

Don't fuckle with Shuckle(s)

Like that other Shuckle, but different.


Edge & Christian posted:

I hope we use this line of reasoning for every scene where someone is startled in their home in the future. "Man, is Green Arrow gay? If not, then why is SOME DUDE in his apartment?"

And all that grunting and "wrestling" late at night doesn't help his case.

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

I just wanted to talk about the comics, see? All those shitty, amazing comics


LOL Superheroes are hella gay. Glad we're all able to get this out of our systems finally!

Madkal
Feb 11, 2008

The most interesting plant in the world

Capullo's art reminds me of a mix between Breyfogle and Stelfreeze. Nothing wrong that as it also reminds of Grant Allan's run and I quite enjoyed that run.

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Nightmare fuel


Are those Flash pages consecutive? He's in his costume as he's falling, then underwater he's back in his regular clothes, and then he changes right back?

Captain Corduroy
Mar 30, 2007

We find the source of the problem, and we throw dragons at it.


Edge & Christian posted:

Gonna go out on a limb and when someone wakes up and is all WHO THE gently caress ARE YOU and chokes the other person in the room, the person being choked might not be their girlfriend.

Yes but this gets slightly more complicated when the woman is wearing just panties.

Was Taters
Jul 29, 2004

This is it.
Batman and Robin.
Together again
for the first time.


Lobok posted:

Are those Flash pages consecutive? He's in his costume as he's falling, then underwater he's back in his regular clothes, and then he changes right back?

Suit goes in the ring

HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those bat-men.

Captain Corduroy posted:

Yes but this gets slightly more complicated when the woman is wearing just panties.

Not... not really, though. It bumps surprise snuggles up the list, sure, but there's plenty else it could still be.

Was Taters posted:

Suit goes in the ring

So he didn't want to get it wet?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


HitTheTargets posted:

So he didn't want to get it wet?

I'm not sure they are consecutive, but well, the suit's supposedly metal now, so maybe he'd be too heavy to float?

Majin
Apr 15, 2003



Semper Fudge posted:

Also, some colored and lettered Aquaman pages here: [Link]

Those Aquaman pages are hilarious. I'd buy it if that was the whole book!

Karma Tornado
Dec 21, 2007

The worst kind of tornado.


Those Voodoo pages look like they're out of a coloring book.

A really weird coloring book I wouldn't show my mom when I'm finished coloring it in.

meltor
Sep 28, 2002

The Modern Gentleman

Edge & Christian posted:

I hope we use this line of reasoning for every scene where someone is startled in their home in the future. "Man, is Green Arrow gay? If not, then why is SOME DUDE in his apartment?"

To be fair, if a dude was in Green Arrow's bedroom in his underwear I would totally ask that.

redbackground
Sep 24, 2007

BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!


Madkal posted:

Capullo's art reminds me of a mix between Breyfogle and Stelfreeze. Nothing wrong that as it also reminds of Grant Allan's run and I quite enjoyed that run.
Do you mean Alan Grant?

I completely agree with the Breyfogle comparison. He really went out of his way to give masked Batman a wide range of emotion that you don't see nearly as often today. I'm pleasantly surprised by those pages, and am am now holding steady at "cautiously optimistic"!

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

I just wanted to talk about the comics, see? All those shitty, amazing comics


meltor posted:

To be fair, if a dude was in Green Arrow's bedroom in his underwear I would totally ask that.
She's wearing bikini bottoms, sandals, a tank top and a button down flannel shirt. And they're at some sort of cabin in a forest.

In a superhero comic book, that lady might as well be in a nun's robe.

Madkal
Feb 11, 2008

The most interesting plant in the world

redbackground posted:

Do you mean Alan Grant?

I completely agree with the Breyfogle comparison. He really went out of his way to give masked Batman a wide range of emotion that you don't see nearly as often today. I'm pleasantly surprised by those pages, and am am now holding steady at "cautiously optimistic"!

Yea Alan Grant. I had it right in my head and wrong in my fingers.
I put Alan Grant in the same category as Chuck Dixon. Good writers, not great, who can crank out decent stories every now and again.

TheManWithNoName
Oct 20, 2004

Cuz life sucks, kids. Get it while you can.

Comixology is having a huge Superman sale this weekend. Lots of good stuff for .99 cents an issue. Good time to try out digital comics if you haven't had the chance.

Semper Fudge
Feb 19, 2009

Pitchfork was wrong. (f)lowers of Algerbong is crap.

Holy poo poo, DC actually apologized for something. Has that ever happened? I don't think they even commented on the whole Ryan Choi thing.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/07/29/we-hear-you/

Sanschel
Aug 9, 2002



Edge & Christian posted:

Gonna go out on a limb and when someone wakes up and is all WHO THE gently caress ARE YOU and chokes the other person in the room, the person being choked might not be their girlfriend.

I knew a guy who was ex-NAVY Seal, and after he left the service he would warn people not to disturb his sleep because he'd automatically attempt to disarm and subdue them before he'd fully woken up. He'd broken his wife's hand when she forgot one night, and I once saw him go from a deep sleep to pinning a nurse to the floor and snapping her arm in seconds, before he realized what was happening.

Combat can gently caress you up, so it's not too far-fetched to think a warrior like Wonder Woman might react violently before she's fully awake.

Semper Fudge posted:

Holy poo poo, DC actually apologized for something. Has that ever happened? I don't think they even commented on the whole Ryan Choi thing.

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/07/29/we-hear-you/

Hopefully this results in decent meaningful books, and not just token "Women of DC" one-shots.

meltor
Sep 28, 2002

The Modern Gentleman

Edge & Christian posted:

She's wearing bikini bottoms, sandals, a tank top and a button down flannel shirt. And they're at some sort of cabin in a forest.

In a superhero comic book, that lady might as well be in a nun's robe.

Looking at that panel again I'm really not sure what's going on there at all.

I'm not subscribing to Wonder Woman but I will be thumbing through #1 when it drops to see where this goes. I bet it's totally creepy and objectifying.

Also, I want a half naked dude to creep around a male superhero's bedroom now. Preferably it would happen to Thomas Wayne before the reboot. Just a whole comic of that and the reaction. No words. I'd loving buy it.

Milotic
Mar 4, 2009

9CL apologist

Majin posted:

Those Aquaman pages are hilarious. I'd buy it if that was the whole book!

Is Aquaman going to be bulletproof now? That looks like a really fun comic. Especially if he stops being a pompous non-funny version of Namor.

Semper Fudge posted:

On a slightly different note, check out these new Flash pages from Manapul:





That's really cool, it's great to see a Flash using their powers tactically and in three dimensions. It's neat seeing heroes switch between powers/power-sets (which is why Ultra Boy owns as well)

I'm quite excited about the reboot now.

DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

Semper Fudge posted:

Also, some colored and lettered Aquaman pages here: [Link]
Hmmmmm people hate Aquaman and thinks he sucks, but people like Superman... What if Aquaman was just like Superman.

Dan Didio: Brilliant Geoff another winner!

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


That is, however, a fantastic expression on Aquaman's face in that last panel.

StumblyWumbly
Sep 12, 2007


DynamicSloth posted:

Hmmmmm people hate Aquaman and thinks he sucks, but people like Superman... What if Aquaman was just like Superman.

Dan Didio: Brilliant Geoff another winner!

Stopping criminals by flipping their drat car over and smashing heads into pavement is more Namor than Superman.

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash pages are really impressive for very different reasons. I'm not sure which is funnier, the criminal laughing at Aquaman or the officer trying to be nice by offering him some water.

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Gatts
Jan 2, 2001



Aquaman grim and grimacing bein' put in grimy situations!

Eh, why not take a lighthearted JLI approach to Aquaman instead of trying to cool and grim him up? Just a chill King chilling in his Kingdom strolling the oceans doing right where he goes.

Gatts fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2011 around 13:43

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