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Anne Whateley posted:So what? You don't think "gently caress you got mine" parents can have kids who go into the Peace Corps and vice versa? Let's say someone beats their kids. Just because they abuse their children doesn't mean that the kids can't grow up to be loving, peaceful individuals. The likelihood of the children growing up to be abusers themselves is much higher however. Raising kids ain't exactly a precise science. Your kid could grow up to be a serial killer even if their childhood was full of love and support. All you can do is encourage them to adopt traits that you feel are desirable. To answer your question from before, I would be disappointed if, despite my best efforts, my kid grew up to be a racist, greedy rear end in a top hat who runs over puppies for fun. However, that is a risk you'll have to take when dealing with child-rearing. In my mind, the benefit outweighs the risk and if you cultivate a loving environment for the child, the kid will likely grow up and value the morals that you instilled in them.
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Jul 31, 2011 04:57
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Skizzles posted:I'm just glad I'm not the only one with a seemingly irrational hatred of children. I'm not nearly as bad as the OP, but kids are definitely not my cup of tea. What really grosses me out is babies/toddlers eating. They get food and their spit loving everywhere and the smell is awful. Friends are always posting pics of their kids covered in their food on Facebook all like, "look how cuuute!" and I just shudder. I have gotten a little better since hanging out with friends' babies a bit, but I'm still not remotely interested in having any of my own. Just... I have never thought they're cute, or precious, and I don't want to hold them (people think it's just delightful to make me hold babies in hopes that it'll change my mind). If I do change my mind later, I'm perfectly happy with adopting an older child.
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Jul 31, 2011 04:58
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Noctone posted:Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people probably think the same thing about your cats? Like I don't even give a poo poo about people not wanting kids (I have no desire for them yet and I'm 27), but it's just funny seeing a post like this from a girl who, if AYB is any indication, is well on her way to Crazy Cat Lady. One way that pets are superior to children is that you can't lock your kids in a spare room with a plate of kibble when you want to go out at night. I don't care about people's kids or cats, really.
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Jul 31, 2011 05:30
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Wow, I didn't think the thread would continue like this. Sorry for the short absence. Thank you for all the advice. To answer some questions, the boyfriend is 10 months younger than I am. We use condoms and the rhythm method, which means abstaining completely during fertile times of the month. He is definitely not the type to sabotage birth control. Oddly (for him anyway) we agreed that if a mistake happened and I got pregnant, that the fetus would be aborted as soon as scientifically possible. (Please don't argue about abortion, guys) I do think it's unhealthy that I feel a physical sickness when I think about pregnancy; that's one of the main reasons I posted the thread for help. However, though I do have a very strong aversion to children, my frustration at the time of writing made things come off as overkill in the OP. I'm sure the thread title didn't help either, durr. I can look at kids and talk to kids, but if I have a choice I will not interact. Being nice and civilized to child customers at work is pretty easy. I agree that there is some kind of deeper issue about hating the idea of parenthood in general. Therapy is a great suggestion, but until I can figure out a way to pay for it, it won't happen.  From what I can gather myself, this whole thing probably stems from seeing other people around me, young and old, make terrible mistakes that affected the rest of their lives. My dad worked in family law and brought home horrific stories all the time. Now that I think about it more, those stories probably traumatized me without my realizing. At least they scared me into behaving.Lots of people are latching on to the fact that the boyfriend told me to be quiet when I tried bringing up the issue. I'll try talking again soon to see if he reacts the same way. If he does, then argh. To whomever said I reek of arrogance... I've gotten that more than once. Another bad flaw of mine stems from when my father told me every single day when I was little that I was better than everyone else, that I was smart, beautiful, etc. Surprise surprise when it gradually dawned on me that it was bullshit and there are millions of people ahead of me on the bell curve in every subject. The attitude my dad taught me is sick and unhealthy and I hate that it seeped into my personality. There's another problem for the shrink to hear about. And it could very well be connected to my intolerance of people who make mistakes, i.e. children and teenagers, and thinking I am "above" them on the inside. Which makes me think about all those stories about people loving up their lives with bad decisions... I think we're on to something. Thank you again for all the help. I'll report back after I talk to Boyfriend again. And to whomever pointed out my anime avatar, it's a screenshot from a mainstream cartoon I liked as a kid. So what.
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Jul 31, 2011 07:04
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Shoe of all Cosmos posted:He is definitely not the type to sabotage birth control. Oddly (for him anyway) we agreed that if a mistake happened and I got pregnant, that the fetus would be aborted as soon as scientifically possible. (Please don't argue about abortion, guys) There's the abortion pill that you can take rather early, as soon as the pregnancy can be confirmed via ultrasound. Shoe of all Cosmos posted:Lots of people are latching on to the fact that the boyfriend told me to be quiet when I tried bringing up the issue. I'll try talking again soon to see if he reacts the same way. If he does, then argh. Why should you bring it up again now? Does your boyfriend want to have kids right now? It seems a bit silly to me to want to try to solve a situation which may just resolve itself. E.g. by the time your boyfriend wants kids, you want them too, or, by the time your boyfriend wants kids, you've already broken up, or, by the time your boyfriend would have wanted kids, he no longer wants them. Why bring an issue forward to now, when it's not actually relevant yet? Unless you want to break up over this now?
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Jul 31, 2011 08:09
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Vulvarine posted:Can you explain this? I've heard the whole "if you don't want kids you're immature" thing plenty, but nobody has ever bothered to really explain it. I'm referring to the people who said they never want kids because babies cry and diapers are icky. sporktastic posted:I'm 29, don't have kids, and don't want kids. I don't hate kids, they can be cute, but I can only take them in small doses. The idea of having to take care of a small child 24/7 just sounds awful. Plus, when its a baby you have to get up a million times a night to feed it and change it's diapers...and I just really don't do well if I don't get at least 7 hours of sleep. If I had to be constantly seriously sleep deprived for months on end, I think I would have a nervous breakdown or something. Life is not easy, you have to work a lot of the time and do loads of bullshit you don't want to do. I can understand not wanting kids (its a big commitment), but never having kids just because babies are inconvenient strikes me as one of the more childish reasons. Suleika posted:Why should you bring it up again now? Does your boyfriend want to have kids right now? It seems a bit silly to me to want to try to solve a situation which may just resolve itself. E.g. by the time your boyfriend wants kids, you want them too, or, by the time your boyfriend wants kids, you've already broken up, or, by the time your boyfriend would have wanted kids, he no longer wants them. Why bring an issue forward to now, when it's not actually relevant yet? Unless you want to break up over this now? Because most people who want kids are probably not going to change their minds, and if she is sure she wont want to have kids she could avoid wasting time in a relationship that will ultimately end due to this. This is probably the most important thing to agree on with a partner.
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Jul 31, 2011 08:15
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Just chiming in as a pregnant lady to say that pregnancy is gross and terrible. I just happen to think it's worth it. While there are awesome moments, like feeling his first kick, hearing his heartbeat and seeing him grow on the ultrasounds, and the look on his dad's face when he first felt a kick with his hand on my stomach, it's mostly boring and not fun. I don't understand the women who love being pregnant at all. Honestly, it's kind of like being stuck in a doctor's waiting room for nine months, dealing with weird pains and lots of nausea while wishing the loving doctor would just loving hurry the gently caress up, goddamnit. I just feel the baby-luggin' and the birth are worth it, because one aspect of my personality is that I love kids, and I love people. There is definitely nothing wrong with not pumping out babies, though. Especially since many people who wait until they're older and then discover they would like to raise a child end up adopting.
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Jul 31, 2011 08:24
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malefactor posted:Because most people who want kids are probably not going to change their minds, and if she is sure she wont want to have kids she could avoid wasting time in a relationship that will ultimately end due to this. Most women who don't want kids when they are 23, do want kids at some point before they are 35. It sucks for those women who actually never want to have kids, because they aren't believed at a younger age when they say so. But really, how can you tell how you're going to feel about something 10-12 years from now, when it's something that is incredibly influenced by hormones, i.e. something you have no real control over and can't foresee? Again, most likely this situation will resolve itself way before the actual issue occurs. Either because one or the other has changed their minds, or because they've broken up over something else.
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Jul 31, 2011 08:48
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Noctone posted:Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people probably think the same thing about your cats? Like I don't even give a poo poo about people not wanting kids (I have no desire for them yet and I'm 27), but it's just funny seeing a post like this from a girl who, if AYB is any indication, is well on her way to Crazy Cat Lady. Putting cat pictures on AYB seems pretty normal, a lot more normal than posting pictures of your kid. At least the cat will never know that he/she was on goon-Facebook and there's no privacy issue.  I post pictures of my cat on Facebook because I love him and I think that some of the stuff he does is cute/funny/should be documented, not because I expect other people to agree with me. I don't IM people like "HEY LOOK AT MY CAT ISN'T HE PRECIOUS" -- I just throw pictures out there and people comment if they want to. Haven't you ever had some jerkass corner you and insist on showing pictures of their kid/grandkid? It's not like I carry pictures of my cat around in my wallet and shove them into people's faces. That said, I don't particularly mind when people put their kids on Facebook either. Of course I don't comment on their pictures either, I just scroll right past. edit: Suleika posted:Most women who don't want kids when they are 23, do want kids at some point before they are 35. [citation needed] quote:It sucks for those women who actually never want to have kids, because they aren't believed at a younger age when they say so. But really, how can you tell how you're going to feel about something 10-12 years from now, when it's something that is incredibly influenced by hormones, i.e. something you have no real control over and can't foresee? Yeah, I stopped saying that I never wanted to have kids when I was probably 13 or 14. Now I give this wishy washy "well, I never say never, but I can't see myself having kids" just to humor people who don't respect my opinions. I should start pressuring those people to get pets ("you'll love it when it's your own," "you'll change your mind someday, just you wait," etc.).
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Jul 31, 2011 13:23
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Suleika posted:Most women who don't want kids when they are 23, do want kids at some point before they are 35. It sucks for those women who actually never want to have kids, because they aren't believed at a younger age when they say so. But really, how can you tell how you're going to feel about something 10-12 years from now, when it's something that is incredibly influenced by hormones, i.e. something you have no real control over and can't foresee? Man, it's people like you that really make my teeth grate. You don't even see how condescending and arrogant you sound, do you? Story for the OP! I've known since pretty much forever that I didn't want kids. But since I'm female everyone and their sister was around to tell me exactly what Suleika here is babbling. I had a long term boyfriend who seemed cool with the entire 'not having kids' thing or at least said he was cool with it. Then I got cervical cancer at 22. So now not only do I not want kids, I cannot have them because apparently God or whatever agreed that me + kids = terrible. My boyfriend at the time, the one who said he was cool with not having kids, left me two days before I went in for my first round of treatment. His reason? He couldn't be with a woman who couldn't bear his children. His exact words! (9 years later and I am *still* pissed off when I think about it.) So unlike everyone else who doesn't think its a big deal to get this poo poo sorted out with your SO because you are ~~so young~~ I think you need to get it sorted out pronto. Not only do you not know if you might get the wave of crazy baby hormones to make you suddenly want a sprog of your own, something might happen to permanently close that option. Last thing you need if you end up, God forbid, in a stressful situation is an SO deciding to bail for things completely beyond your control.
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Jul 31, 2011 14:24
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YeahTubaMike posted:Putting cat pictures on AYB seems pretty normal, a lot more normal than posting pictures of your kid. At least the cat will never know that he/she was on goon-Facebook and there's no privacy issue. And just for the record, no, no one has ever cornered me and shown me pictures of their kids. But that's neither here nor there.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:45
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Noctone posted:You missed my point. She finds kids disgusting. Some people find cats disgusting. Kids are objectively disgusting. They put their hands in dirt then in their mouths, get food everywhere, burp/puke/piss/poo poo wherever they feel like (up to a certain age). Cats, too, are objectively disgusting. They're little puke machines, they kick pissy/lovely litter around, they shed their hair all over everything. They never grow out of it either! Some people like kids, some people like animals, some people like both. Whether or not they're disgusting doesn't appear to have much to do with it. Also, just for the record, you're lucky. This lady at my job a while ago insisted upon showing me a bunch of pictures of her grandkids, and I had to respond with a terse "Oh  " before she finally got out of my face.
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Jul 31, 2011 16:03
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Shoe of all Cosmos posted:We use condoms and the rhythm method, which means abstaining completely during fertile times of the month. How did I know you would be using a birth control method with a relativley high possibility of failure? By "rhythm method," do you mean fertility awareness, and are actually tracking your fertility by checking your temperature and cervical mucus, or just something based vaguely around when you've had your period? I am just absolutely gobsmacked that someone who hates children is not using a more effective birth control. I would have an abortion if I got pregnant, but I don't want to have even a chance of that, so I got an IUD.
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Jul 31, 2011 16:09
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YeahTubaMike posted:Kids are objectively disgusting. They put their hands in dirt then in their mouths, get food everywhere, burp/puke/piss/poo poo wherever they feel like (up to a certain age). I think we agree, then? 
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Jul 31, 2011 16:16
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HelloIAmYourHeart posted:How did I know you would be using a birth control method with a relativley high possibility of failure? You apparently didn't read, she said condoms and the rhythm method.
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Jul 31, 2011 16:51
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Mradyfist posted:You apparently didn't read, she said condoms and the rhythm method. Condoms have a fairly high rate of failure (2% with perfect use, 15% typical), as does the rhythm method (5-9% with perfect use, 25% with typical use). Combining them helps but the failure rate is still relatively high compared to hormonal contraception, IUDs and surgical sterilization, especially if these are also combined with condoms. Rhythm method also means there are windows up up to 2 weeks where the couple aren't allowed to have sex, which could cause problems in a relationship.
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Jul 31, 2011 17:04
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Mradyfist posted:You apparently didn't read, she said condoms and the rhythm method. So just condoms then. The rhythm method is about as good as the pullout method / hope to not get pregnant method. edit: Unless you are leaving a massive 2 week window of no sex every month. Even still its a really lovely and stupid way to avoid pregnancy.
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Jul 31, 2011 17:10
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malefactor posted:So just condoms then. If it's used religiously (which does involve extended periods of celibacy, or at least buttsex/oral only), failure rate is around 5-9%. Pull out is actually BETTER when used perfectly, at 4%. However for both, "typical" use has almost the exact same failure rate of about 25%. I presume that for both, typical use involves at least occasionally just loving and letting God sort it out (ie, failing to abide by fertile days or miscalculating for rhythm, failing to pull out before coming for pull out)
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Jul 31, 2011 17:16
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You know what we call people who use the rhythm method around these parts? Parents. Seriously, if fertile phases were so easy to track, no one would have issue getting pregnant save if the sperm count was low or the ejaculates were all sperm warfare experts. Guess what? Unless you have the same periods every time ever, regardless of stress, hormonal issues, and the time of the year (women are more likely to conceive in spring and summer months, etc), your fertile cycle isn't as easy as counting off two fertile weeks. I'm pretty floored too that you use condoms and some guesswork idea that 'I should be okay I just had my period.' when you really really don't want to have kids or get pregnant right now. Is it health reasons as to why you aren't on hormonal birth control? Can you not use an IUD or Mirena? If it's the cost, how the hell will you be able to afford an abortion if you need one?
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Jul 31, 2011 18:53
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malefactor posted:So just condoms then. e:fb Pulling out has a failure rate of 15-28% and is way better than hope. With perfect use (which is basically impossible, but w/e) it drops to 4%. It's actually better than the rhythm method, which has a 9% perfect use failure rate.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:03
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Citizen Rat posted:Man, it's people like you that really make my teeth grate. You don't even see how condescending and arrogant you sound, do you? I think you didn't read my post right.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:25
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Suleika posted:I think you didn't read my post right. No, it was read right; women are ruled by hormones and have no intellectual agency, and young women in particular can't possibly know what it is they want because hormones might take over when they're older and no matter how absolutely sure they are that they don't want children for however many perfectly logical reasons, the biological clock will overwhelm our feeble female brains.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:43
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The post was pretty weird, but it's really absurd to argue that your opinions of things won't change from when you're 23 to basically any later age.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:46
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I'm the president of Team No Babies. I've known since I was 12 that I don't want kids. The thought of having children - or more specifically, what I'd have to give up in my life to make way for said children - fills me with disgust and rage. OP, you sound exactly like me. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk; I'm older than you and have Many Stories about my anti-baby ways and how they just firmed my resolve.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:49
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I am absolutely certain I will never have genetic kids. And I'm right on that. And I will always be. If I got pregnant, I would kill myself. And I mean that.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:51
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Harry posted:The post was pretty weird, but it's really absurd to argue that your opinions of things won't change from when you're 23 to basically any later age. Exactly, if no one ever changed, there would be no divorce. Saying that at 23 you can accurately predict how you will feel in 25 years, when you have been an adult for 1/5 of that, is a little silly. Sure you MIGHT be right, but the posters in this thread saying "I hated kids and didn't want them, now I'm pregnant and couldn't be happier" are proof that you might not be. Again, it's pretty rude to say this IRL unless someone is making an irreversible decision that you think they may regret, but this is a thread where advice was solicited, so drawing on personal experience of the exact same situation is fair game.
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Jul 31, 2011 19:51
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Vulvarine posted:No, it was read right; women are ruled by hormones and have no intellectual agency, and young women in particular can't possibly know what it is they want because hormones might take over when they're older and no matter how absolutely sure they are that they don't want children for however many perfectly logical reasons, the biological clock will overwhelm our feeble female brains. You are just being reactionary and retarded. If ANYTHING his post was biased against younger people, who he suggests may change their minds as they get older. It certainly was not at all misogynistic. Stop being ridiculous.
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Jul 31, 2011 20:05
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gabusan posted:
Yes, us too. And then there's men of my generation, who will quote this and add something to the tune of "but seeing we're smart, we marry the girls who we have the most fun with". (Edit: I was always the fun, partygoing, slutty, careerist girl. Still am. I'm arguing in this silly thread to procrastinate, seeing I should be talking to flower wholesalers because jeez gently caress my wedding is now 13 days away).
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Jul 31, 2011 20:06
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I don't think it's fair to bring feminist outrage into this argument. While men probably aren't as influenced by hormones as a woman could be, many men have their opinions invalidated due to age when they seek sterilisation in their teens and 20s. It has little to do with being a woman and more to do with being a young person who should be open to change. If you're such a militant rear end in a top hat as to think your not-yet-matured opinions are absolute and anyone who disagrees based on experience is a raging sexist, I doubt you'll have to put that much effort into not breeding in the first place. Get a grip.
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Jul 31, 2011 20:07
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malefactor posted:I'm referring to the people who said they never want kids because babies cry and diapers are icky. You only get one life and as you said, life is not easy. Why is it childish to want to keep your life as easy as possible? I have seen people wreck their lives by having children, women who've changed from happy confident people into slobby miserable wrecks because they devote their entire life to working to pay for the kid and looking after the kid. Babies are massively inconvenient. They need round the clock care. Children wreck your home, even the best behaved kids will break something or draw somewhere they shouldn't, or spill juice on your carpet. If someone is happy having a carefree, child-free life, then they shouldn't be made to feel selfish and childish for wanting to keep it that way. I work in an antenatal clinic and see terrible mothers every day- women who drink, take drugs, have a child every year despite being on government benefits, women who use abortions as birth control to space out their kids and so on. Thank god some women these days are standing up and saying "hey, you know, I'll think properly about this having a child thing instead of doing what society is telling me I should do to not appear selfish" OP, your very strong aversion to children is a little worrying though. I don't like babies because they're gross, but I'll smile at them in public. I don't want kids, but I'll babysit for other people happily. I don't want natural children, but I would like to adopt one day.
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Jul 31, 2011 20:41
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Vulvarine posted:No, it was read right; women are ruled by hormones and have no intellectual agency, and young women in particular can't possibly know what it is they want because hormones might take over when they're older and no matter how absolutely sure they are that they don't want children for however many perfectly logical reasons, the biological clock will overwhelm our feeble female brains. That's clearly not what I wrote. You should really work on your reading comprehension skills.
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Jul 31, 2011 20:52
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Vulvarine posted:No, it was read right; women are ruled by hormones and have no intellectual agency, and young women in particular can't possibly know what it is they want because hormones might take over when they're older and no matter how absolutely sure they are that they don't want children for however many perfectly logical reasons, the biological clock will overwhelm our feeble female brains. Really I don't even see why anyone cares if an 18 or 23 year old might change their mind. If they do, so what? Too bad, guess they'll have to adopt. Probably not the worst thing ever. And it affects my life in absolutely no way. Maybe they won't be so bitter about kids and we'll see less whining about how nasty and vomit-inducing they are.
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Jul 31, 2011 21:02
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opie posted:Really I don't even see why anyone cares if an 18 or 23 year old might change their mind. If they do, so what? Too bad, guess they'll have to adopt. Probably not the worst thing ever. And it affects my life in absolutely no way. Maybe they won't be so bitter about kids and we'll see less whining about how nasty and vomit-inducing they are. Because doctors don't want to gently caress up peoples lives? "Too bad, I guess they'll have to adopt" can in fact translate into years of misery and failed attempts to reverse surgical procedures. Not everyone wants to adopt (lets not get into the whole "people who want their own kids are inhuman monsters!" that you sometimes see on SA), not everyone CAN adopt. Sterilizing someone is an active procedure that a doctor DOES, and knowing that the thing you are doing may result in unhappiness isn't something a doctor will necessarily want to do. 13-24% of tubal ligation patients later express regret or seek reversal. That's a BIG "failure" rate of the procedure if success is judged as "does this make the woman's life better?". And it is structured by age: up to 40% for under 25s, 6% for over 30s. Some of this is due to medical side effects, but a portion relates to the later desire to have children. And I know that many ligations are carried out under different circumstances than the ones discussed here (often women with children who feel they have enough), but regret is still pertinent to discussion. It's understandable that a doctor does not want to perform a procedure that has a good chance of being later regretted.
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Jul 31, 2011 21:40
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I hereby declare every 18-23 year old's feelings and opinions about EVERYTHING to be invalid.
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Jul 31, 2011 21:57
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This isn't meant to be a derail, but... You know there are non hormonal birth control methods, right? Including a pill? The one I'm on right now is once weekly and it's side effects are increased male hormones (which usually translates to ance breakouts) and hosed up random periods. Aside from the sporadic periods being kind of a scare this pill has been wonderful and has been working for me for over 3 years. It's not approved in the USA yet so YMMV, and this isn't meant to be an advertisement. In fact, there are several recent BC brands which deal exactly with this problem and give you the lowest hormone fuckery possible. The point is, while the neverending PMS trip of hormonal BC pills is Hell on earth, there are options and all of which are safer than the rhythm method. As an added bonus, you can throw away the condoms.
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Jul 31, 2011 22:08
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Cuckoo posted:The point is, while the neverending PMS trip of hormonal BC pills is Hell on earth, there are options Is there a big difference between different kinds of hormonal BC pills too? Or do all hormonal types affect you in pretty much the same kind of hell-on-earth ways?
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Jul 31, 2011 22:13
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EmeraldFlashlight posted:I hereby declare every 18-23 year old's feelings and opinions about EVERYTHING to be invalid. E/N does this all the time, and is usually right.
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Jul 31, 2011 22:13
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Cuckoo posted:This isn't meant to be a derail, but... Pill + condom is the best plan if you want to be absolutely sure.
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Jul 31, 2011 22:33
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But what about lesbians?
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Jul 31, 2011 23:09
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Shoe of all Cosmos posted:To whomever said I reek of arrogance... That was me. I didn't mean to be overly offensive, but it's instantly what I thought. Makes perfect sense. We all have baggage and poo poo that our parents did or said to us during our vulnerable time of development. What makes you an adult, is being able to face those flaws and try and do away with them. Believe me, I know how easy it is to stew and resist change and not assume responsibility for you are. Honestly though, from the moment you realize that somebody else influenced who you are in someway today, it falls on you to choose whether or not to let that influence continue. Yes, bootstraps, etc, w/e. Best of luck though. The contrast of anti-baby cat people everyone to is hilarious in this thread. You ever notice how dog people don't share the same sentiment? Then again, I do not have to shove a 10 pound football out my body, so take my words for what you will.
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Jul 31, 2011 23:29
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