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Wiz posted:The thing to understand is that Russian revolutionary ideology is very anti-nationalistic, because unlike France they have a myriad of minorities of their own. The states they construct are either direct continuations of existing states or (like the Baltic Republic) exist to make government of a particular region easier. Their utopia is sort of a proto-communist World Republic rather than the self-determination espoused by the French in the OTL. Now I whole-heartedly want Russia to win regardless of what happens to Azerbaijan just to see what sort of world is going to come out of a victory for Russian-style Republicanism.
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Jun 16, 2013 15:39
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Wiz posted:The thing to understand is that Russian revolutionary ideology is very anti-nationalistic, because unlike France they have a myriad of minorities of their own. The states they construct are either direct continuations of existing states or (like the Baltic Republic) exist to make government of a particular region easier. Their utopia is sort of a proto-communist World Republic rather than the self-determination espoused by the French in the OTL. That makes sense. My ideas about the Russian government might be a little too dependent on France's state of affairs during the period. I keep assuming Russia is a close relative of Revolutionary France. The slight difference of opinion on nationalism does change things quite a bit. Would Russia's eventual goal be to absorb all the states within its sphere of influence then? Would Russia be okay with absorbing other states but letting them handle their own domestic affairs, à la Chechnya or Khakassia? QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 15:41
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theblastizard posted:It probably sucks less than being partitioned. I'd say they have it worse. They now had three regime changes, all of them mandated by foreign powers through war. With all the mandatory purging of the original monarchists, the collaborating republicans and now the new monarchists, I am pretty sure there is not a single civil servant left in Poland. The majority of the day-to-day operations are probably run by the Russians and with the an entire generation drafted and killed in the revolutionary war, I don't see that changing in the future. And then there is also the fact that they are the primary battleground for this war. Pretty much every siege and every battle fought on Polish territory means that there will be Polish casualties and the destruction of Polish infrastructure. Regardless of how this war ends, Poland is pretty much finished as a country.
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Jun 16, 2013 15:42
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QuoProQuid posted:That makes sense. My ideas about the Russian government might be a little too dependent on France's state of affairs during the period. I keep assuming Russia is a close relative of Revolutionary France. The slight difference of opinion on nationalism does change things quite a bit. Revolutionary Germany was this world's Revolutionary France. Revolutionary Russia is what you get with you mix liberal revolution with Russian-style imperialism and the need to bend ideologically to justify continuing to rule over all the various religions and cultures that make up Russia. e X posted:I'd say they have it worse. They now had three regime changes, all of them mandated by foreign powers through war. With all the mandatory purging of the original monarchists, the collaborating republicans and now the new monarchists, I am pretty sure there is not a single civil servant left in Poland. The majority of the day-to-day operations are probably run by the Russians and with the an entire generation drafted and killed in the revolutionary war, I don't see that changing in the future. Yeah Poland is pretty boned.
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Jun 16, 2013 15:45
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Wiz posted:Revolutionary Germany was this world's Revolutionary France. Revolutionary Russia is what you get with you mix liberal revolution with Russian-style imperialism and the need to bend ideologically to justify continuing to rule over all the various religions and cultures that make up Russia. So, this Russia is basically Eurasian USA?
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Jun 16, 2013 15:58
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my dad posted:So, this Russia is basically Eurasian USA? Something like that.
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Jun 16, 2013 16:01
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Italy is gonna get some hella mad irredentist claims after this is all over.
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Jun 16, 2013 16:44
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the JJ posted:Can we, say, 'accidentally' refuse to help Greece and then 'accidentally' refuse to flip them back can get some of our poo poo back? I was hoping Jahan would tell the Russians that the fact that Anatolia is just a short sail away from Italy necessitates leaving most of our forces in the Republic to protect our people, with only token forces moving into Europe, and my dear prezident, I resent the suggestion that this is an attempt at leaving a strong I was hoping he wouldn't be a complete Russian lapdog. 
Punished Chuck fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 16:45
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Tomn posted:Now I whole-heartedly want Russia to win regardless of what happens to Azerbaijan just to see what sort of world is going to come out of a victory for Russian-style Republicanism. Honestly? Probably a lot like United States Federalism. We may have imported most of our foreign nationals, but drat we got a lot of them. It's also worth pointing out that France used to have a lot of regional variations that got smoothed over by their Republican investments into universal standardized education. For the most part, it seems like ethnic groups are able to live in peace with one another so long as they all have a voice in government, even as a minority. Imagine if the Chechnyan conflict had followed the American Civil Rights Movement's arc and you may get a sense of what Russian Republicanism would be like.
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Jun 16, 2013 17:06
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WeaponGradeSadness posted:I was hoping Jahan would tell the Russians that the fact that Anatolia is just a short sail away from Italy necessitates leaving most of our forces in the Republic to protect our people, with only token forces moving into Europe, and my dear prezident, I resent the suggestion that this is an attempt at leaving a strong Playing a useful role in the Revolutionary Coalition ensures that the fighting takes place some distance from our territory. Our armies were remarkably active and effective and were critical in clearing Russia's southern flank and even in reversing Monarchist gains in the center around Poland. If we had been passive, I think Serbia, Bulgaria, and Italy would have quickly overrun Greece and then turned on us while Russia was bogged down in Poland, and we probably would have wound up with the idiot Tunga restored as Sultan of a severely reduced Azerbaijan (with Bulgaria and Italy claiming great chunks of the country).
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Jun 16, 2013 17:13
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e X posted:I'd say they have it worse. They now had three regime changes, all of them mandated by foreign powers through war. With all the mandatory purging of the original monarchists, the collaborating republicans and now the new monarchists, I am pretty sure there is not a single civil servant left in Poland. The majority of the day-to-day operations are probably run by the Russians and with the an entire generation drafted and killed in the revolutionary war, I don't see that changing in the future. Sounds like the POPs will be a lot of fun in Poland.
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Jun 16, 2013 17:13
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lullelulle posted:Sounds like the POPs will be a lot of fun in Poland.
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Jun 16, 2013 17:24
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Wiz posted:The thing to understand is that Russian revolutionary ideology is very anti-nationalistic, because unlike France they have a myriad of minorities of their own. The states they construct are either direct continuations of existing states or (like the Baltic Republic) exist to make government of a particular region easier. Their utopia is sort of a proto-communist World Republic rather than the self-determination espoused by the French in the OTL. To be fair Revolutionary France in OTL also had a fair number of minorities (Basques, Bretons, Occitans, Vendeans, etc), but that didn't stop them from preaching self-determination abroad and forced assimilation and repression at home. Gorgo Primus fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 17:25
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lullelulle posted:Sounds like the POPs will be a lot of fun in Poland. I think having Poland have far fewer people than it would have in the other V2, with some of the Polish pops transferred to the various New World countries (where they will be rapidly assimilated), would be a fair compromise on that front.
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Jun 16, 2013 17:26
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Gorgo Primus posted:To be fair Revolutionary France in OTL also had a fair number of minorities (Basques, Bretons, Occitans, Vendeans, etc), but that didn't stop them from preaching self-determination abroad and forced assimilation and repression at home. Yes, but they could just claim those as all being French with at least a veneer of legitimacy, which is harder to do with say, Sunni Tartars living on the steppe. I'm not saying France didn't have minorities but not nearly to the same degree as Russia.
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Jun 16, 2013 17:59
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Patter Song posted:I think having Poland have far fewer people than it would have in the other V2, with some of the Polish pops transferred to the various New World countries (where they will be rapidly assimilated), would be a fair compromise on that front. I might be riding the apocalypse train a little too hard here, but since nations like China and Japan are presented as uncivilized nations, you could do the same to Poland.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:09
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Personally I think that even though Poland's been badly wounded, it should carry promise for the future. It is a large country, and if the constant flipping has done anything, it is completely purge it of the old guard. Think of it like Europe after the Black Death: when the dust settles down, the fewer people that remain will be individually better off than before.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:10
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e X posted:I might be riding the apocalypse train a little too hard here, but since nations like China and Japan are presented as uncivilized nations, you could do the same to Poland. I don't think that's going to be the case in Wizmod, especially because Zhen and Japan are both starting the scenario far more vibrant than Qing and Japan did IRL. Also, no, Poland won't be an unciv, that's far, far too harsh. I could see Poland missing 1/4th to 1/3rd of its population in the really wartorn regions, which would make their RGO production negligible and industrialization hard as hell even though they do have Silesia, which is one of the best states in the world in V2.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:15
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NihilCredo posted:I don't think so, Consciousness and Militancy should be both pretty low for the 95% Rotting Corpses POP. The world ends in the face of Zombie Poles!
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Jun 16, 2013 18:16
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Even before looking at Russia's own internal demographic barriers to nationalism, nationalism was probably well discredited and purged as a viable revolutionary ideology when Revolutionary Germany, a strongly nationalist-bent revolution on its own, was overthrown and pulled back under the heel of reaction by the international cooperation of monarchism. A single nation can not support the revolution on its own, and reactionaries can not even let a single nation support revolution.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:38
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Sorry to butt in with a question about mechanics, but what do the different troop icons stand for? I can make out 4 different kinds of infantry and 2 types of cavalry, but I can't tell what exactly they represent.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:51
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Obviously the population will be smaller, but what about the different POPs? I could see POPs like bureaucrats, aristocrats and clergymen having been thoroughly purged by the various government changes. That'd be very devastating.
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Jun 16, 2013 18:57
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The war isn't over yet and now France and Burgundy are turning north, Poland may switch sides yet again.
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Jun 16, 2013 19:02
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Kersch posted:Sorry to butt in with a question about mechanics, but what do the different troop icons stand for? I can make out 4 different kinds of infantry and 2 types of cavalry, but I can't tell what exactly they represent.  Units have different stats (Guards have good defense, Cavalry are good at flanking etc) but the most important part of unit selection is the requirements for the different tactics. For example, a combination of guards and cavalry or light inf will let you use the 'Up the Guard' tactic which makes guards near-invincible while allowing their light inf/cav support to dish out massive damage. Garrison troops are super slow and are basically a cheap way to boost the garrisons in your forts, and supply trains let you operate out of supply for longer.
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Jun 16, 2013 19:18
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So, why did Bulgaria get to keep Constantinople?
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Jun 16, 2013 19:27
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lullelulle posted:Obviously the population will be smaller, but what about the different POPs? I could see POPs like bureaucrats, aristocrats and clergymen having been thoroughly purged by the various government changes. That'd be very devastating. It would depend on how much time passes between the last time Poland gets used as the war's battlefield and the end. If it's a year or two then I'd imagine there will be new bureaucrats. I don't see why clergymen would be hit too hard (religion doesn't seem to play much of a role here so only politically inclined clergy would be taking a hit, and even then it's not certain there would be executions as much as imprisonments). Aristocrats though, hoo boy.
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Jun 16, 2013 19:33
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Ogianres posted:Even before looking at Russia's own internal demographic barriers to nationalism, nationalism was probably well discredited and purged as a viable revolutionary ideology when Revolutionary Germany, a strongly nationalist-bent revolution on its own, was overthrown and pulled back under the heel of reaction by the international cooperation of monarchism. A single nation can not support the revolution on its own, and reactionaries can not even let a single nation support revolution. I can see it now: nationalists will claim the original revolution was betrayed by Mansurov's Russia while their opponents will retort with "enlightenment in one country" is impossible and a world revolution (or at least a Eurasian revolution) is necessary. The "manifest destiny" of Revolutionary Russia will be a republic that stretches from Atlantic to Pacific; an unassailable fortress against the barbarism and obscurantism of the ROTW. 
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Jun 16, 2013 19:38
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Here's a thought for you, what if Poland becomes the birthplace of Communism? A Polish Marx/Engel-analogue lives during the days of Poland-without-a-Real-Government, witnessing the ways and methods in which the populace survives banded together, and writes down his observations while pushing for the growth of this lifestyle on a national scale.
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Jun 16, 2013 19:44
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:So, why did Bulgaria get to keep Constantinople? For simplicity's sake. Stuff will change after MOTE.
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Jun 16, 2013 20:04
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Diploid posted:Here's a thought for you, what if Poland becomes the birthplace of Communism? A Polish Marx/Engel-analogue lives during the days of Poland-without-a-Real-Government, witnessing the ways and methods in which the populace survives banded together, and writes down his observations while pushing for the growth of this lifestyle on a national scale. That or maybe the constant curb-stomping gives rise to this world's fascism. Whatever happens, I don’t think Poland is going to be a very fun place to live in the 19th century. Geshtal fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 20:10
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YF-23 posted:It would depend on how much time passes between the last time Poland gets used as the war's battlefield and the end. If it's a year or two then I'd imagine there will be new bureaucrats. I don't see why clergymen would be hit too hard (religion doesn't seem to play much of a role here so only politically inclined clergy would be taking a hit, and even then it's not certain there would be executions as much as imprisonments). Aristocrats though, hoo boy. Any revolution has a very high death toll among intellectual, spiritual and political leaders, because they have significant influence on the population. So the clergymen either chose to support the monarchy, not unreasonable for a catholic country, and got killed, or they supported the republic and got slightly later. The second and third revolutions were probably significantly more brutal in that aspect, because they happened during the war. Neither side really had much time to deal with partisans and long trials, so guess they simply executed everybody who refused to cooperate or collaborated with the other regime. Diploid posted:Here's a thought for you, what if Poland becomes the birthplace of Communism? A Polish Marx/Engel-analogue lives during the days of Poland-without-a-Real-Government, witnessing the ways and methods in which the populace survives banded together, and writes down his observations while pushing for the growth of this lifestyle on a national scale. This Polish Communism would probably be a lot more anarchistic than our version.
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Jun 16, 2013 20:10
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I'm hoping that the entire Islamic world is rebuilding and catching up to the west while this is going on.
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Jun 16, 2013 20:10
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fspades posted:I can see it now: nationalists will claim the original revolution was betrayed by Mansurov's Russia while their opponents will retort with "enlightenment in one country" is impossible and a world revolution (or at least a Eurasian revolution) is necessary. The "manifest destiny" of Revolutionary Russia will be a republic that stretches from Atlantic to Pacific; an unassailable fortress against the barbarism and obscurantism of the ROTW. Enter Reactionary United Kingdoms of America... ?
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Jun 16, 2013 20:16
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Snipee posted:I'm hoping that the entire Islamic world is rebuilding and catching up to the west while this is going on. Zhen, Mughalistan, Persia, and Mali are all pretty dynamic and growing powers, or at least most of them are last I recall. Zhen at the very least is having to engage revolutionary ideology in the form of fighting Russia, and win or lose is not going to be able to continue on without an outward perspective. EDIT: Pimpmust posted:Enter Reactionary United Kingdoms of America... ? Primarily lead by the Cherokee slave empire  .
Ogianres fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jun 16, 2013 |
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Jun 16, 2013 20:17
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Diploid posted:Here's a thought for you, what if Poland becomes the birthplace of Communism? A Polish Marx/Engel-analogue lives during the days of Poland-without-a-Real-Government, witnessing the ways and methods in which the populace survives banded together, and writes down his observations while pushing for the growth of this lifestyle on a national scale. Eh that's not really what Marx/Engels did. Maybe some kind of Anarchism type of writer though, but I don't think Paradox has ever had anything in their games for that particular ideology, with the exception of rebels universally using the anarcho-syndicalist flag. Then again, a simulation of states would be hard pressed to simulate an entity specifically being stateless. Look at how much problems there already are modelling tribes and hordes in EU3, for instance. There's no reason this timelines' Marx couldn't just be Marx, from Germany and fleeing to London. Though from Burgundy may work as well I suppose.
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Jun 16, 2013 20:17
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Snipee posted:I'm hoping that the entire Islamic world is rebuilding and catching up to the west while this is going on. Help us Bin-Wahid, you're our only hope!
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Jun 16, 2013 20:19
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 Chapter 6: Stalemate (1830 - 1833) For whatever reason, Russia decides to once again let Serbia escape the consequenses of their attack on Bulgaria, accepting a mere concession of defeat.  The Swedes, meanwhile, have completely occupied Finland and force their surrender, installing a Swedish puppet government.  The troops freed up from the Spanish front arrive in Eastern Germany in 1831 and quickly rout the scattered Russian forces present there.  Azeri troops are sent to meet this new offensive, defeating an advance guard of Burgundians.  The main thrust of the Monarchist offensive is directed at Bohemia, however, and Prague quickly returns to monarchist control.   The offensive into Poland begins in earnest during the summer. Jahan withdraws his armies deeper into the country, and in October the Anatolians meet the main German army at Posen.  The battle is a crushing defeat and the survivors withdraw behind the walls of Warsaw.  For whatever reason, the Germans do not push on for the Polish capital, preferring instead to slowly advance through the country and capture the forts and towns in their way.  This allows General Rum to fight a hit and run defense, attacking weak enemy armies and then quickly withdrawing to Warsaw before the Monarchists can muster a response.   This effective but costly strategty allows him to defend Warsaw for nearly six months, but by summer of 1833 another German offensive is gaining steam and with only 27,000 men left under his command Rum has little hope of holding them.  He makes a brave attempt of it regardless, combining his forces with a Polish army to defend Warsaw against the combined Burgundian-German forces, but the numerical disadvantage is simply too great.   Fortunately, his delaying tactics have allowed Russia time to muster reinforcements, and some 200,000 Russians arrive in the nick of time to save the Polish capital.  Even as the fighting rages around Warsaw, Russian and Italian diplomats meet in secret in a small town outside the Hungarian capital of Pressburg with the aim of discussing peace. Both sides have realized that the war is stalled, with neither side able to gain a decisive advantage, and both sides are exhausted and broke from the grinding warfare. On christmas eve of 1832, an agreement is reached for a one-year truce and a peace conference to be held in Pressburg the following spring.  As the orders to cease fire reach the devasted and bloodsoaked fields of Poland, both sides pause to catch their breath and wonder whether this truce is truly the herald of peace, or just another interlude in a conflict that has spanned decades.
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Jun 16, 2013 20:22
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Did Britain do anything at all?
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Jun 16, 2013 20:27
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Wow, Poland's just become the communal lawnmower, hasn't it?
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Jun 16, 2013 20:28
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e X posted:This Polish Communism would probably be a lot more anarchistic than our version. That sort of communism would already exist. Marxism differed from previous socialist/communist ideas through focus on industry/industrial society rather than agrarianism, mass revolution rather than forming isolated communes or phalanxes (Owenism) or parliamentary reformism, and the political economy and philosophical components (dialectical materialism, the labor theory of value, etc.) The described situation would probably also not lead to modern anarchism, which has a similar industrial basis. Someone publishing a manifesto about agrarian communism would not be big news since it already existed and losing relevance in proportion to the growth of industry.
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