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nimby posted:If all this tolerance/revolution/republic stuff of Azerbaijan, Germany and Japan keeps up, will they become Allies against the Axis of Burgundy, England and Russia? This is the weirdest thing.
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Jan 26, 2012 22:29
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Are we even going to make it to hearts of iron? I mean, it'd be cool, but it may not be interesting enough to justify a change. We might not even be a major power by that point.
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Jan 26, 2012 22:32
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Dr. Not A Doctor posted:Are we even going to make it to hearts of iron? I mean, it'd be cool, but it may not be interesting enough to justify a change. We might not even be a major power by that point. Wiz said before that it completely depends on the way the world is set up in 1936.
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Jan 26, 2012 22:33
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You know guys, you're counting your chickens a little early here. I'm sure everyone in OTL 1790s had all this wonderful republican visions of the future, but then the counter-revolution sort of happened and quieted that for a long, long time.
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Jan 26, 2012 22:37
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uinfuirudo posted:There is literally no logical way the ikko ikki would have ever done this, especially considering the closest thing to a leader they ever had was a pacifist who tried to distance himself from the rebellion. This is like saying that the Duchy of Burgundy could never have taken over France, because they were extinct from 1477. It's not the same Ikko-Ikki from history. In the transition from CK to EU3, we voted that the Mongols had made a secure landing on Kyushu instead of being beaten by weather and samurai. In the West all the Samurai were either killed in suicidal battles, hunted down and executed after, or fled to the East, where they began to fight smarter and hold off the Mongols with the help of the terrain. When the Yuan Dynasty began to fall apart in China, they reduced their forces in Japan, until peasant rebellions and a resurgence of the samurai ejected them from the islands altogether. Kyushu, where the Mongols had made their main base, was taken by an army of commoners for whom radical Jodo Shinshu Buddhism was the unifying purpose, and who wanted to eliminate the rule of samurai and emperor--which we called Ikko-Ikki for our own convenience. This movement couldn't have been led by Rennyo, because it started several decades before he was even born. Over the course of about 350 years, this group has been gradually pushing West. They threw the emperor out of Kyoto and abolished the Shogunate before 1700, and now they're cleaning up the last samurai holdouts. As to whether to call this entity Japan, I'm not sure that the name "Nippon" can actually be characterized as a purely imperial designation. I mean, even the "People's Republic of Japan" proposed by their communist party carried the name.
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Jan 26, 2012 22:39
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I'm actually curious about the ramifications if Azerbaijan ever conquers the Holy Land. I mean, you'd have a secular empire that has a significant Christian, Muslim, and Jewish community controlling Judea but otherwise not blocking the place off for anyone in particular. Heck, Zionism in this timeline may very well just amount to a bunch of foreign Jews immigrating to Astrakhan and taking road-trips out to Jerusalem whenever they want to see the Western Wall. Plus imagine all the kitschy crap Azeris could sell...
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Jan 26, 2012 22:52
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Munin posted:They were also the colours adopted by the Frankfurt Parliement after/during the 1848 revolutions (if you haven't read about those do).
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Jan 26, 2012 22:53
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Necroskowitz posted:I'm actually curious about the ramifications if Azerbaijan ever conquers the Holy Land. I mean, you'd have a secular empire that has a significant Christian, Muslim, and Jewish community controlling Judea but otherwise not blocking the place off for anyone in particular. Heck, Zionism in this timeline may very well just amount to a bunch of foreign Jews immigrating to Astrakhan and taking road-trips out to Jerusalem whenever they want to see the Western Wall. Zionism was around since the 1800s, it's conceivable that a power vacuum in the middle east could trigger a wave of settlers
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Jan 26, 2012 22:55
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Keeping in mind that there is an old and powerful Jewish community in Astrakhan that could capitalize on said settlers to turn them pro Azeri until eventually getting them to join up with their northern brethren. I guess all I'm saying is that Natalie Portman may very well end up being an Azeri in this timeline. Necroskowitz fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 26, 2012 |
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Jan 26, 2012 23:00
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Patter Song posted:Mali-chat After a smattering of research, I think we can initially attribute a stronger Mali to a still-strong Egypt, at least compared to the OTL. During a period of collapse due to internal struggles between Mali's constituent states, Mali was able to maintain the Trans-Saharan trade with Egypt well into the early modern era. Also, the 1591 Moroccan raid of Songhai likely never occurred, allowing the area to remain an important trading hub. With the gold they still had due to trade, the Mali were able to purchase weaponry from the Portuguese which they used to begin reconquering their empire. By the time European colonization of the New World and India began in earnest, a respectably sized nation presided over a portion of the coasts where slaves were normally captured. Mali continued to get the long end of the stick over the years, as European sailors, from the Netherlands and Italy especially, could restock and make a tidy profit there. Not sure what it'd be up to these days, but that's how it could have gotten started...
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Jan 26, 2012 23:10
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The country of Mali today is still going strong with the gold mines, and as I recall there were significant other mines that were outside the current borders of Mali. So gold would certainly be a strong factor in their economy.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:20
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Ilanin posted:You have Aram IV abolishing the Shura in 1951; presumably 1751 is the date you're actually after. Other than that, nice work as always. Right, fixed for the next update! (can't be assed to upload it again  )Patter Song posted:I could see them having a very lucrative trade with the Italian trading post in Sierra Leone. The Malians sell them slaves and ivory (though, given Italian Kongo, they probably don't need that many new slaves) If they are anything like Portugal with Brazil, they can never have too many slaves... Necroskowitz posted:I'm actually curious about the ramifications if Azerbaijan ever conquers the Holy Land. I mean, you'd have a secular empire that has a significant Christian, Muslim, and Jewish community controlling Judea but otherwise not blocking the place off for anyone in particular. Heck, Zionism in this timeline may very well just amount to a bunch of foreign Jews immigrating to Astrakhan and taking road-trips out to Jerusalem whenever they want to see the Western Wall. Yeah, I think Astrakhan is the best safe haven for Jews, hence it's still majority Jewish despite being a part of a huge and populated empire where Khazars are the smallest of minorities. I am imagining it as used to getting their own way in many things, wealthy and liberal as hell, but still standing behind the administration just because it has always been good for them. Culturally it could become something like Tel Aviv. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jan 26, 2012 |
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Jan 26, 2012 23:20
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German flagchat is the best flagchat. I especially like this particular nugget from wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_flag posted:When the black-red-gold tricolour was adopted by the Weimar Republic as its flag, it was attacked by conservatives, monarchists, and the far right, who referred to the colours with spiteful nicknames such as Schwarz-Rot-Gelb (black-red-yellow), Schwarz-Rot-Senf (black-red-mustard) or even Schwarz-Rot-Scheiße (black-red-poo poo).[12] When the Nazis came to power in 1933, the black-white-red colours of pre-1918 Imperial Germany were swiftly reintroduced, and their propaganda machine continued to discredit the Schwarz-Rot-Gold, using the same derogatory terms as previously used by the monarchists.[13]
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Jan 26, 2012 23:23
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DarkCrawler, it says that the Shura was abolished in 1951 in the Aram IV section.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:32
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inscrutable horse posted:German flagchat is the best flagchat. I especially like this particular nugget from wikipedia: Say what you will about the Nazis, but they certainly know how to choose a flag. Schwarze-Rot-Scheisse or whatever is so, so inferior to the black white red.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:33
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Dutch Panama nooo 
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Jan 26, 2012 23:33
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Oh yeah, just for fun, tally of Azerbaijan's Sultan deaths: Death in battle: 5 Death of illness/Plague/Food poisoning/Heart attack: 11 Assassinated: 3 Suicide: 1 Accident: 2 Natural death: 7 24% of Azerbaijani Sultans lived long and (more or less) happy lives, considering that we got through Crusader Kings I think that's a pretty good result. The Saurus posted:DarkCrawler, it says that the Shura was abolished in 1951 in the Aram IV section. Ilanin posted:You have Aram IV abolishing the Shura in 1951; presumably 1751 is the date you're actually after. Other than that, nice work as always. DarkCrawler posted:Right, fixed for the next update! (can't be assed to upload it again I'll try to fix all the typos for the next entry. 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 26, 2012 |
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Jan 26, 2012 23:37
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DarkCrawler posted:Death of illness/Plague/Food poisoning/Heart attack: 11 AKA spoiled fish.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:39
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Cowcatcher posted:Too bad, if we did the conversion in 1800 then you could just start with no industry/railroads, give everyone the same fighting chance Even in 1836 everyone can more or less have a fighting chance - historically, even by 1850 industrialisation in Europe was at minimal levels outside the British Isles and Belgium.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:43
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The Saurus posted:AKA spoiled fish. "A surfeit of Lampreys." Still my favourite ever.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:46
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Given the Jodo Shinshu background of the Ikko-Ikki movement would it be possible that they would adopt some form of theocratic democracy/republic? For example, something similar to modern day Iran with an elected body and a strong advisory council of scholars/monks. I hope whoever the German Napoleon is will be up to facing the fury of Poland  . Maybe liberal Russia will decide to give them a hand.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:52
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John Charity Spring posted:Even in 1836 everyone can more or less have a fighting chance - historically, even by 1850 industrialisation in Europe was at minimal levels outside the British Isles and Belgium. Terrifying Effigies posted:I hope whoever the German Napoleon is 
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Jan 26, 2012 23:54
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I guess that the German Napoleon would have to be from Rügen? It's insane how much people loved lampreys in the middle ages, I find them absolutely terrifying to even look at, they look like they belong in a horrific fantasy film.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:00
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Thread moves too fast; I start one comment and end up having to paste in a bunch more.Cowcatcher posted:Zionism was around since the 1800s, it's conceivable that a power vacuum in the middle east could trigger a wave of settlers We'll have to see if the particular conditions that allowed Zionism to gain strength will happen. Honestly, I doubt it. Relative to the decayed Ottoman Empire of the late 18th century, the Muslim world is very strong. Even if Syria and Egypt are lagging behind the rest of the world, Azerbaijan and Persia would be a huge deterrent to European colonial ambitions in the Holy Land. It's possible that Syria could encourage Jewish settlement in the Holy Land in the hopes of attracting educated and skilled migrants as a way to catch up with Persia and Azerbaijan. Necroskowitz posted:Keeping in mind that there is an old and powerful Jewish community in Astrakhan that could capitalize on said settlers to turn them pro Azeri until eventually getting them to join up with their northern brethren. I guess all I'm saying is that Natalie Portman may very well end up being an Azeri in this timeline. The Astrakhan Khazars are actually really cool because they're likely to be the most important Jewish community in the world at this point. Under the millet system they would have had full toleration and limited self-rule over one of the wealthier cities in Asia and the area surrounding the Volga's terminus at the Caspian Sea--a whole province peopled mostly by Jews, also running the local government. They had a privileged status as merchants and bankers for the Sultans of Azerbaijan, and their city would have been the trading center for the whole region, which although only modestly wealthy (lot of wool and grain being traded) is still significant. With the adoption of LEF as our last NI, they're also perhaps the first Jewish community anywhere to be legally emancipated. Although the lines of communication with the Ashkenazim in Europe are likely to be iffy, the Khazars are undoubtedly the most influential community among the Mizrahim. Terrifying Effigies posted:Given the Jodo Shinshu background of the Ikko-Ikki movement would it be possible that they would adopt some form of theocratic democracy/republic? For example, something similar to modern day Iran with an elected body and a strong advisory council of scholars/monks. I think it makes more sense to read it as the monks and temples being very influential but holding themselves aloof from the actual running of the country, leaving that in the hands of the merchant aristocracy.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:16
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The Saurus posted:It's insane how much people loved lampreys in the middle ages, I find them absolutely terrifying to even look at, they look like they belong in a horrific fantasy film. For once, I find myself in complete and utter agreement with Saurus. Who the gently caress first thought it'd be a good idea to bite down on one of those things? And how the hell did he convince anyone else to do so?
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Jan 27, 2012 00:16
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The Saurus posted:It's insane how much people loved lampreys in the middle ages, I find them absolutely terrifying to even look at, they look like they belong in a horrific fantasy film. I guess in a world without much access to many spices, sugar, tomatoes, potatoes and potato based foods, bananas and other kinds of fruit where meat and to an extent fish were definitely luxuries enjoyed mainly by the rich the ability to eat hideous water creatures was much more prestigious. Also, for all I know lampreys are very tasty, I have never eaten one and likely never will.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:17
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Ubern00b posted:Revolutionary Germany! Well, jetzt geht's los! Freiheit, Gleichheit und Brüderlichkeit!
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Jan 27, 2012 00:22
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Orange Devil posted:Freiheit, Gleichheit und Brüderlichkeit! Und ein hart gekochtes ei!
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Jan 27, 2012 00:26
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Tomn posted:Und ein hart gekochtes ei! The president of revolutionary Germany had better be Samüel Wimes now.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:30
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Tomn posted:For once, I find myself in complete and utter agreement with Saurus. Who the gently caress first thought it'd be a good idea to bite down on one of those things? And how the hell did he convince anyone else to do so? Let me tell you that whilst I've never had lamprey smoked eel is drat nice. I've heard some people express admiration for the jellied kind as well.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:42
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Wiz posted:Date is just doomed. No need to give them any real thought, they'll be gone in two updates tops. Aw, I was hoping for a longer-lasting Republic of Ezo situation. Can't win 'em all.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:43
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Tomn posted:Und ein hart gekochtes ei! Selbstverständlich.
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Jan 27, 2012 00:47
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EvanSchenck posted:We'll have to see if the particular conditions that allowed Zionism to gain strength will happen. Honestly, I doubt it. I'd say there'd still be people that are interested in creating an independent Jewish state as there's no indication that the pogroms in Russia and general Anti-Semitism in Europe is absent in this timeline. As to the feasibility of it all, I agree with you on one partin that support won't come from Europe. However, "The Plight of the European Jew" may well become a politically motivating factor for the Khazars. At that point all they need is a hawkish Sultan to nudge in the right direction ("Man, Jerusalem would be a hell of a jewel in your crown wouldn't, eh boss?") and some casus belli to fabricate. EvanSchenck posted:"Khazars" That's really got me thinking. It's entirely possible the Astrakhan Jewry still have hold overs from when they were their own Kingdom. They may very well still have a Khagan as their spiritual leader, something OTL Jewish communities haven't had since the Romans created the Diaspora. The Jews may have their very own Pope/Kohen Gadol in this timeline!  Granted all of the above is moot if Russia eats us up in the next update. EDIT: Tangentially related; steinrokkan, what's the symbolism of your avatar? It's pretty cool. Necroskowitz fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jan 27, 2012 |
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Jan 27, 2012 02:02
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Munin posted:Ou Monarch might have *some* sympathy with them considering how much the common folk in Germany had been battered but he would not express support since it would piss off our allies. Since he is a Monarch the revolutionaries wouldn't want his support anyway. Besides, this is all happening well outside our sphere and unless Rev. Germany is wildly successful our only skin in the game is the potential impact on Poland. The monarch would be inherently opposed to the German revolution. He'd be sympathetic, of course, because the Republic was based on Enlightenment ideals, and the government he rules is based on the Enlightenment ideals, so there's a natural kinship. Sure the Germans adopt a flawed deviation in Enlightenment ideas by creating a pathetic 'republic' with a reactionary 'Constitution', but that shouldn't stop the King from opposing the Revolution. After all, there's no guarantee Rev. Germany will stay democratic, and one ambitious Consul may decide to establish a Revolutionary Empire. Two absolutist despots, basing their legitimacy on Enlightenment principles...that would be a "dream team" of progressive thinking. Still, the monarch will dislike the German revolution for what it essentially implied. That the masses can indeed rise up and overthrow the so-called "legitimate" rulers whenever they want. That the masses do not need to accept the absolutist decrees of the King and could instead propose their own alternatives. The King may view German nationalism positively, may love Europeans adopting the Enlightenment...but he's going to hate the idea that he and his family could be stripped of power and killed at any possible moment, and that his powerful army, the very army that can crush Armenia, might not be able to contend against the rabble. That would be an utterly terrifying thought to the King, and will likely make him oppose the German Revolution with a vengeance and back all Polish actions to suppress it. "Revolution must come from above, never from below." Servant fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jan 27, 2012 |
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Jan 27, 2012 02:19
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Necroskowitz posted:That's really got me thinking. It's entirely possible the Astrakhan Jewry still have hold overs from when they were their own Kingdom. They may very well still have a Khagan as their spiritual leader, something OTL Jewish communities haven't had since the Romans created the Diaspora. The Jews may have their very own Pope/Kohen Gadol in this timeline! Hell yeah, let's tolerate the poo poo out of our Jew Pope.
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Jan 27, 2012 02:26
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Servant's right...enlightened despots might like the idea of granting privileges to their subjects while fearing the idea of citizens demanding inherent rights.
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Jan 27, 2012 02:34
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Necroskowitz posted:I'd say there'd still be people that are interested in creating an independent Jewish state as there's no indication that the pogroms in Russia and general Anti-Semitism in Europe is absent in this timeline. It's not a matter of Zionism happening at all, it's a matter of it being able to do anything with its ideology. The sequence of events that started with the emergence of Zionist ideology and finally resulted in an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land was heavily contingent and could have failed at a lot of different points. It succeeded because it secured the forbearance and at times the active support of various great powers, and historical events proceeded in such a way that their sponsors were able to help them. For example, the Zionists were only able to buy land and clear the Arab residents from it because of a series of legal reforms in the Ottoman Empire following the Crimean War. Without those reforms, settlement would have been entirely impossible. Say that Syria doesn't have a legal reform and it continues to be illegal for Jews to own land in their own name, or that they have a land reform but give the peasants more rights to tenure. That means no Zionist settlements. Or say that they manage to get settlements established by 1900, but the nearby presence of two significant military powers keeps European hands off the Holy Land, so Syria remains independent (or a satellite of Azerbaijan or Persia). This keeps the Zionists in the same doldrums they had before WWI, with a few tens of thousands of settlers and little prospect of further growth.
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Jan 27, 2012 02:43
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I think that our current system of government believes that subjects have inherent rights - Where the governments will differ is what those inherent rights ARE. We have freedom of religion and equality before the law, but political rights are deeply lacking, whereas in revolutionary germany things may be the other way around. I know Zionism refers to Judea/Israel specifically, but isn't it possible that a similar movement could focus on another area? The Khazar Jews have lived in Astrakahn and the surrounding region for centuries, and have been allowed to practise their religion freely, and prospered as merchants within the Azeri empire. It seems a little farfetched to suggest they would want to move to Israel when they're having a relatively good time of it in their ancestral homelands. The Saurus fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jan 27, 2012 |
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Jan 27, 2012 02:44
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Necroskowitz posted:I'm actually curious about the ramifications if Azerbaijan ever conquers the Holy Land. I mean, you'd have a secular empire that has a significant Christian, Muslim, and Jewish community controlling Judea but otherwise not blocking the place off for anyone in particular. Heck, Zionism in this timeline may very well just amount to a bunch of foreign Jews immigrating to Astrakhan and taking road-trips out to Jerusalem whenever they want to see the Western Wall. Zionism is a fancy word for "Jewish nationalism," so if you're going to try to imagine Zionism in this timeline you're going to have to put it in that context. And within that context, I think it's much more likely that you'd have an Astrakhani independence movement. Astrakhan has always been a Jewish, Khazar province. It's been a Jewish homeland of sorts for centuries by now. At this point ethnic and religious identities are likely closely entwined. If a nationalistic movement ever emerges there, the people will probably be more interested in splitting off from their own country rather than emigrating to Palestine. It's also worth pointing out that modern Zionism was very controversial when it first emerged. Religious Jews viewed it as religious--only God is allowed to return the Jews to the Holy Land! Of the more secular Jews, many wanted to just be accepted into the societies in which they lived. I can't speak for the more secular Jews in this world, but I'm sure the religious Jews would still kick up a fuss. Moreover, due to the millet system the religious establishment is undoubtedly even more powerful than its equivalents in OTL Europe and deeply tied to the rich merchant houses as well. LEF just happened a few years ago, the influence of the traditional religious/political authorities is going to stick around for at least another couple of generations. And even if the religious establishment isn't tied to the traditional rulers, the old Jewish politicians will likely still view these Zionist upstarts as a threat to their power. One of the motivating factors behind Zionism was the sense that there was no real place for Jews in Europe. But there is a place in Azerbaijan, and that's probably the first place most Azeri Jews will think of if they need a refuge or want to live in a majority Jewish community. I'm sure a lot of Jews would move to Palestine anyway if Azerbaijan conquered it; OTL Jews have been making pilgrimages/moving permanently to modern-day Israel for millennia, just not as an organized political movement or in as large numbers as the aliyot. It just won't lead to a Jewish State there. I guess it's possible that Zionism might develop outside of Azerbaijan, though. There will still be a ton of kitschy junk. There is always a ton of kitschy junk.
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Jan 27, 2012 02:54
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I also think it's reasonable that when pogroms kick Jews out of villages in Poland, at least some people say "pack up, we're going to Astrakhan."
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Jan 27, 2012 03:01
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