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Wiz posted:World Map Is that big Muslim state of Kirkuk in Iberia related to the Iraqi Kirkuk? Certainly wouldn't be out of the ordinary for al-Andalus (or CK for that matter), but still kinda odd. Tomn posted:The Islamic Emperor of Orthodox Byzantium, with Semi-Salic Gavelkind? Muslims getting accidentally elected to strong Christian state is always a recipe for hijinks, since they pretty much always go on immediate and unexpected jihads. I had an AI Venice elect a Muslim courtier in 1090 or so and by 1100 he had conquered nearly all of Italy with his Venetian doomstack.
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Aug 10, 2011 03:20
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What are the chances of the current Azeri sultan inheriting his uncle's title to Syria and reunifying what's left of Ertan's empire?
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Aug 11, 2011 23:14
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Looks like the ilkhan is having trouble keeping his conquests together. Too bad there's a bunch of unwashed Franks dirtying your shores. (((I'm rooting for the Kingdom of Italy to make it till EU3 though, I'd love to see where it would lead)))
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Aug 14, 2011 04:57
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At this rate the Middle East is going to turn out roughly like real life, but with an Azeri rather than Ottoman Empire.
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Aug 15, 2011 01:17
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Wiz posted:HRE: That's a pretty awesome HRE, it'll be interesting to see if it can hold up to the Burgundian/Italian blobs.
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Sep 8, 2011 03:37
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Proposition Joe posted:Russia is our future big bad enemy after we are done with Armenia. They are already huge and the Caucus is an obvious place to expand for them. Except that unlike Armenia, Muscowy/Russia has a number of other avenues to divert their attention - Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Siberia, Scandinavia. As long as we keep on their good side and support them in their wars we should be able to keep out of their crosshairs.
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Oct 3, 2011 01:41
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 A worldly, tolerant leader in charge of the most welcoming, diverse country in Asia? Of course he would aim to safeguard the privileges of the masses.
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Oct 12, 2011 04:00
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DarkCrawler posted:Haha, loving evil parallel universe Wiz LPs. Something Nice forums are probably "Oh god, another LP where he takes over the world in fifteen years and then mods other planets into EU 3, I hate those boring things!". Pretty sure I remember seeing a (what else?) Byzantine mega-LP on the EU forums years ago where they went CK through HoI, then 'ported' their global empire to Galactic Civs and continued from there.
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Nov 5, 2011 14:43
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Bohemian Nights posted:My biggest grief with EU3 is how the superiorority of polish 6 to 9-barreled cannons are not represented in the game in any way. Amazed to see an (EU3) post about the Polish military that isn't about  ~*Winged Hussars*~ . Although those are some pretty boss volley guns.
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Nov 20, 2011 20:26
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Tulip posted:Certain parts of Tang and Song china were actually the things that came to mind for me, but pretty much all history goes through China in my head so The Azeri aristocracy is likely focused on military matters and lavishing gifts on the arts and sciences while leaving the day-to-day business of governing to civil servants and the bureaucracy. That would explain both the high level of aristocratic power, innovation/freemindedness and our national ideas. At least during the Medieval period Islamic governments tended to focus on military affairs while the cities were left to be run by collections of ulema and merchant associations. The lack of government interference in the markets and a general positive view towards commerce in Islamic thought meant that merchants never felt the need to seize greater political power to protect their interests, unlike their compatriots in the West who were under threat from both unscrupulous monarchs and accusations of sinful profit-taking from the Church. That would most likely explain why Azerbaijan hasn't had any major push towards a plutocracy, although Azeri merchants probably don't enjoy the same level of respect and prestige as their real-world counterparts given our lack of mercentile NIs. (basing this off of David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years, which has some interesting comparisons between the role of commerce in India/China/the 'Near West'/the 'Far West' among many other things)
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Jan 6, 2012 04:50
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 After a lot of thought I have to go with National Bank. The pressing need for rapid
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Jan 7, 2012 16:25
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doctor iono posted:Can someone explain what exactly a shift towards Smithian economics meant for pre-industrial nations, historically speaking? What kind of effect did it have on the framework of society? I've been meaning to post this since it seemed particularly relevant to Azerbaijan, especially given the current vote. Plus its a pretty interesting theory to boot: David Graeber, Debt: the First 5,000 Years posted:The veneration of the merchant [in Islamic society] was matched by what can only be called the world’s first popular free-market ideology. True, one should be careful not to confuse ideals with reality. Markets were never entirely independent from the government. Islamic regimes did employ all the usual strategies of manipulating tax policy to encourage the growth of markets, and they periodically tried to intervene in commercial law. Still, there was a very strong popular feeling that they shouldn’t. Once freed from its ancient scourges of debt and slavery, the local bazaar had become, for most, not a place of moral danger, but the very opposite: the highest expression of the human freedom and communal solidarity, and thus to be protected assiduously from state intrusion. While Smith based his framework around 'rational self-interest' and competition, Islamic thought saw the free market as an extension of mutual aid and cooperation. Graeber also makes the point that Islamic societies were particularly hostile to the idea of corporations in the sense of 'imaginary individuals,' unlike the West (growing out of guild structures and royal monopolies) and the East (coming from the Buddhist monastic tradition). While the ingredients for Adam Smith's ideas were present in the Islamic world from an early date they failed to coalesce into a formal free market ideology like in the West. Since this history's Azerbaijan has long had a reputation as being a mixing pot of Eastern and Western ideas, though, there's a much greater likelihood that some scholar or philosopher in Shirvan or Astrakhan might pen the Islamic 'Wealth of Nations'. Still voting for National Bank (for largely the reasons posted by Tulip above), but Smithian Economics would definitely be a good fit for Azerbaijan in the future.
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Jan 8, 2012 00:49
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doctor iono posted:I actually just heard an interview with David Graeber on NPR yesterday. The book sounded pretty fascinating, would you recommend it? I got it over Christmas based on the repeated recommendations in the D&D reading thread and it hasn't disappointed. I'm about 3/4 of the way through it and its already at the top of my list of nonfiction books.
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Jan 8, 2012 05:46
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Since Azerbaijan's biggest goal is to prevent a strong Anatolian state from being a threat, one option would be to foster divisions between the Armenians themselves and the old Nicean provinces in the west. Some funding and propaganda efforts (or further military actions) could see a revival of Nicea as an independent state, while the Azeri-controlled Armenian provinces could then be given semi-autonomy as a weakened satellite state. That would also save the cost and effort of rebuilding and upgrading the Armenian infrastructure, since we'd want them to be as weak and non-threatening as possible. I forget exactly when Nicea/Byzantium finally bit the dust, but looking back over the State of the Worlds the current line of control is roughly along the old Nicean/Armenian border cira 1450, and Nicea/Byzantium was still hanging on as a rump state in 1600 - only 80 years ago at this point.
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Jan 9, 2012 00:29
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The real news in this update is that the Samis have their independence again! :cryingreindeer:
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Jan 10, 2012 00:05
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uPen posted:Vicky2 is bad and changing governments is really awful. Unless you have a revolution pretty much the only government changes you can make are Absolute Monarchy <-> HM's Government/Prussian Constitutionalism or Presidential Dictatorship <-> Democracy. I'm sure if Wiz does decide to go to Vicky2 over the original he'll overhaul the hell out of it first. He might even make it halfway playable  I'm really not seeing Azerbaijan ending up a republic before Vicky though given what just happened with the Shura, unless Sultan
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Jan 10, 2012 23:08
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QuoProQuid posted:EDIT: The flag of the Dutch West India Company could probably be something as simple as this, given how how simple the flags of the various Trading Companies tended to be: The (RL) Dutch West Indies flag was actually this:  with the "GWC" standing for Geoctroyeerde Westindische Compagnie (Chartered West India Company). At least according to Wikipedia the red in the Dutch flag was a result of the natural orange dyes of the Blue-White-Orange tricolor fading quickly and leaving a dark orange/red stripe. Later after Napoleon's invasion and the Batavian Republic the red was canonized to mimic the French Revolutionary tricolor. Given that there was no House of Orange in this history however the Dutch would probably have a much different flag/tricolor. I did a Dutch EU3 LP a long time ago that ended up using the Brabantine/Flemish arms with a bit of Holland's to come up with an alternative:  Since this timeline's Netherlands came out of Flanders something similar might work as well. Small versions:  - Netherlands - Dutch West Indies Company
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Jan 13, 2012 02:39
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Pakled posted:Florida may be less of a backwater in this game than in real life. It's the Netherlands' only colony in the region and as such they've probably invested more in terms of money and settlers than Spain did in real life. Spain owned lots of tropical islands which were more suitable to the production of sugarcane, coffee, and tobacco, so anyone wanting to grow cash crops in the Caribbean could do so on Puerto Rico or Cuba or any of Spain's other possessions in the area. In this game, Dutchmen have to make due with the slightly less suitable Florida. Probably the best comparison would be with the RL Dutch Guiana, with greater settlement due to not being almost entirely jungle.
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Jan 13, 2012 13:06
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EvanSchenck posted:Chartered trade companies like the VOC and BEIC couldn't possibly have survived a direct confrontation against their governments, they were simply far too vulnerable and lacked any basis for existing as independent entities. If they directly opposed the state, their charter would be revoked, their capital and goods in Europe seized, and their directors arrested and charged with treason. Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of if the Dutch colonies remained under 'home rule' into Victoria they would end up being semi-independent VOC/GWC-run satellites, similar to the Belgian Congo setup under King Leopold (but hopefully with less genocide). Even the Britich EIC would have had a hard time if they decided to go it alone - simply losing the right to trade in the home country would be enough to destroy one of the big colonial companies. Besides, its not like the VOC/BEIC didn't have virtual control over their respective nations' government policy during their heyday anyways. Getting back to flagchat, I made a few more Dutch colonial flags:  - Dutch VOC (East India Company) for Victoria Indonesia colonies - Alternate VOC design - Loyalist Dutch Argentina with Southern Cross - Revolutionary Democratic Dutch Argentina - Used a similar light blue to OTL Argentina since its flag colors were selected to be as different as possible from Spain's, and its similarly very different from Gold/White/Black.One other thing - are any of the other colonial powers particularly merchant-oriented? I was wondering what Italy's sliders/ideas in particular might look like given their colonial growth given their expansion into areas that were dominated by the VOC/BEIC in the OTL. Might be interesting to have a Compagnia delle Indie Orientali take over parts of India.
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Jan 14, 2012 00:50
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theblastizard posted:While we're flagchatting, we need a Cross of Burgundy flag for France. Since the Capet dynasty branched into both France and Burgundy before the LP even started in CK it's likely the fleur-de-lis would be revived and incorporated into any Burgundian/French flag along with the Burgundy cross to emphasis their ancestral claim, regardless of whether the current dynasty has any Capetian blood.
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Jan 15, 2012 05:43
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Reveilled posted:Given that France has pretty much been a dead Kingdom for centuries at this point, would Burgundy be particularly interested in reviving France as a thing? What we call "French" might just be called "Burgundian" in this world; after all the burgundian version of French is called Burgundian, and if it has supplanted Parisian French as the standard form of french, all the other versions of French might just be considered forms of Burgundian instead. Arguably with hundreds of years of strength behind it Burgundy might very well be considered the more prestigious title, and the idea of "France" as a kingdom could be as dead by this time as the Kingdom of Lotharingia was by this point in our own history. The concept of France would still be a very strong idea even centuries after its dissolution, particularly for a monarch trying to establish a legitimate claim to the region. Burgundy's hold over northern and western France only solidified in the last 50-100 years and faces opposition from English/Norman influence in the north and Catholicism in the southwest. Claiming the French crown not only invokes the last time those regions were united with Burgundy but also associates the ruler with France's golden age under Charlemagne and the Capets. If simply becoming 'France' is boring, it could end up being named something slightly different, like 'Francia' or 'França/Franca' (to show a stronger Occitanian influence). QuoProQuid posted:Isn't the Fleur de lis a big symbol of the Virgin Mary? Seems like a weird thing to put on the flag of a predominately Protestant nation. I've also seen it associated with the Trinity in other places, although you're right that the lily itself was a Marian symbol as well. According to Wikipedia the Marian connotation came about in the 1300s from some passages in the Song of Solomon. Also going through the Wiki article its pretty crazy how widespread its become both in heraldry and everyday occurrences. It shows up in everything from Boy Scouts to the Bosnian flag.
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Jan 15, 2012 16:07
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Ilanin posted:^^^"The term France is merely a geographic expression" OK, Klemens von Metternich won't be born for another hundred years or so yet. But the idea of Germany had been around for some time before 1871 - the German Confederation was created in 1815, and the HRE had officially renamed itself "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" in 1512. The idea of a Kingdom of Germany was never something that went away. Now, maybe the Kingdom of France never did, either - perhaps the Burgundians have claimed the throne all these years, or perhaps the English still do (unlikely, though, since that was a Plantagenet claim and that dynasty died out very rapidly in CK). But absent information to the contrary, I'm not going to assume there has been a continual reminder of the concept of a unified French nation. Normandy was part of the Frankish Empire from the Merovingians in the late 400s (part of the original Frankish territory) up through the Carolingians to the Norman Invasion in 1066. Even after that the duchy was still technically in fealty to the French crown at the start of this LP (1187), although in this timeline the English/Angevins managed to assert their claim and bring it under English dominion sometime after that. Really a better example than Germany would be Italy - it went 800 years with a vacant throne with multiple kingdoms and other strong political entities dominating the peninsula (Sicily/Naples, Lombardy/Milan, Venice, Sardinia-Savoy), yet it was resurrected in the early 19th century by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia to cement their claim to the entire region. Also, I managed to make a Burgundy-France flag that doesn't look as much like it came from the Confederacy by combining the Burgundy cross with the white-on-blue French cross, similar to GB's: 
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Jan 15, 2012 17:07
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Except for a lack of cores Burgundy had all the necessary provinces to take the Form France decision in 1590, and its only because it spun Berry back off that they can't now. After reunifying the old royal demesnes around Paris and the Loire valley in the late 1500s there's really no reason the Burgundians *wouldn't* add the French crown to their titles. In my opinion, given the enormous historical prestige wrapped in the crown of Clovis, Charles and Louis the Burgundian dynasty would begin styling themselves as French kings rather than Burgundian at that point - although I can definitely see them remaining in Dijon to keep apart from the Parisian mobs. Really its just a matter of game limitations and fluff, and Wiz can take it either way. I'd be interested in knowing whether Burgundy conquered or diploannexed the Cosmopolitaine minors, since that would influence what sort of political arrangements there are between Burgundy and the north. I do agree that Gascony and the Channel territories would be 'outside' any France at this point - Normandy and Brittany due to their long English rule, and Gascony because of the loose ties between the Aquitaine region and Paris even before the French monarchy collapsed in the early 1200s.
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Jan 15, 2012 22:11
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Tulip posted:If we're worrying about names, when Burgundy gets around to calling for unification we should probably call it "Burgundian France" until some revolution ends the royal line in Vicky. It's still France, since that's a linguistic and cultural idea that transcends the polities involved, but it's good to be mindful that the France in this world is really quite different from the Bourbon France of OTL. Speaking of Mali, I was curious as to whether Mali's size and power would have had any affect on the Atlantic slave trade. Looking back over the world maps though the Bight of Biafra and West Central Africa (where 54% of African slave historically came from) are still tribal lands and have experienced a lot of territory changes, much like the OTL. Given the Dutch colony on Fernando Po and the Italian Congo they're both likely using significant slave labor in their South American and Floridian colonies. The British colonies might be relying on Irish indentured servants rather than resorting to slavery, however, since they've got no Caribbean presence and only a small African Cape colony. Without the sociopathic duo of Cortez and Pizarro Espanya probably absorbed the existing native societies and simply perpetuated the peasant serfdom that already existed there. Overall though the combination of a strong Mali occupying the Senegal/Gold Coast region and lack of a major single-power triangle trade (bar Italy) means that African slavery probably doesn't have nearly the spread or volume that it did OTL, particularly in North America. Terrifying Effigies fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jan 15, 2012 |
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Jan 15, 2012 23:27
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they'd probably be a tech leader as well. I'm thinking they get some nasty Meiji-esque modernization events once they start having more protracted European contact.
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Patter Song posted:I think you're underestimating Mali's willingness to sell slaves to the Spanish etc. in return for weapons, European goods, and sweet technological progress. I guess I was mistaken about Islamic slavery. I thought there were proscriptions against exporting them, but it was the fact that internal demand always outstripped supply that kept the Islamic world from participating much in the European slave trade. Muslims can only enslave non-Muslims as 'prisoners of war,' but the tribal lands to the east of Mali would provide a ready supply for that.
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Jan 16, 2012 00:09
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Hopefully the rivalry between Burgundy and Italy/HRE Franconia ends up resolving the whole HRE issue before Vicky then. Are there still ridiculous alliance chain wars in DW or did that get patched/modded out?
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Jan 16, 2012 02:01
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cwDeici posted:Yes, I agree with those who think Burgundy has taken on the qualities of France more than France itself and that a union tag should be under Burgundy and not France, same as if Austria or Prussia had managed to conquer rather than unite all Germans, especially if the Burgundians outnumber the Cosmopolitans by the time it happens (forming France in EU3 also makes Ile de France your state culture, which helps in that area). It depends on whether southern 'core' Burgundy (the Rhone/Marseilles) converted from Occitanian to Burgundian. The Lyon/Dijon area was pretty populous, especially without the Albigensian Crusade, but the Paris area was still one of the most populous regions in the world. Here's what the cultural makeup of unified France looks like in 1600 vanilla-DW: 
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Jan 18, 2012 12:52
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Gaul or Gaullia sounds like a pretty good compromise to me. It recognizes that Burgundy would have to do *something* to assert their rule over France while still letting it be 'ahistorical:' - Instead of serving as the administrative capital of the strongest monarchy in Europe for centuries, Paris has spent a considerable time as a relatively independent city with the ability to pursue its own agenda. Even without a COT its still probably one of if not the most important city in French territory (it was over 100k pop by the point when our French monarchy collapsed, and 500k by 1700 OTL). - The Burgundian kings may choose to keep their distance from the Parisian 'mobs' and continue ruling from Lyon. Historically royal administrations don't necessarily locate themselves in their country's most important cities, but there's usually consequences for not doing so. Also remember that Switzerland is Burgundian territory so Lyon isn't quite as exposed as it seems. - A restored Gaullia will be much more fractious than it was historically (and that's saying something). The Burgundians will have to tread much more lightly than the Valois or Bourbons if they want to keep their empire intact. - Gaullia has completely missed out on colonization so far, and there's not many options for them remaining. That will put a serious crimp on its industrial growth as it goes into Vicky as it has to rely on foreigners for any raw materials not available in Gallia itself. I could see a Gaullian Burgundy ending up as a somewhat stronger Austria-Hungary style nation as it moves into the modern era, especially if it expands into non-Gaulic areas like the Channel coast, Netherlands or Germany. Burgundy and central France would be generally aligned, but Gascony/Aquitaine would continue to burn with Catholic separatists and any territory gains to the north or east would see themselves as belonging to entirely different cultures (Norman/Dutch/German/Italian). And Paris would be a power in and of itself, with the ability to make or break governments if it decided to rebel. edit: If Burgundian France does end up as Gaul then it definitely needs a rooster on its flag. Terrifying Effigies fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jan 19, 2012 |
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Jan 19, 2012 00:29
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Also, before anyone argues that Paris should be an unimportant backwater in this history, keep in mind what a strong, independent-minded Paris would entail in Vicky... ~*Vive la Commune de Paris*~
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Jan 19, 2012 00:45
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Patter Song posted:
It's been Burgundian in the past, I thought they split them off as a vassal for admin reasons.  Strong navy's really the sticking point though. If they keep fighting Italy, the Dutch or Britain anything they build is going to have a service life measured in months.
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Jan 19, 2012 00:51
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Tomn posted:The odds of Berlusconi existing as he did in this timeline is remote, though. Even if "he" was around, he'd probably be Pope or something. At least in the real world we've already had a Berlusconi Pope...
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Jan 20, 2012 02:29
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Man, I was jonesing for some Azerbaijan updates at work today  I have to say though a military alliance of Armenia, Bosnia and Ethiopia was pretty much doomed from the start to end in horrific failure. It's also looking like the Ikko Ikki have suffered some serious setbacks with the loss of Kyoto.
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Jan 24, 2012 02:09
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The Saurus posted:Osman's Dream by Caroline Finkel is a fantastic book covering the rise and fall of the ottoman empire. It focusses on the conditions within the empire itself that caused its decline rather than on the actions of the young turks and kemal wotshisname as some are wont to do. ^ This is a pro recommendation, I started on Osman's Dream a few weeks ago and so far its been fantastic. Given Azerbaijan's long history of battlefield glory and martial leaders, not to mention their common Turkic origin with the Ottomans, its probably safe to say that Azerbaijan holds military prowess to the same high esteem that the Ottoman Empire did. It's less clear though whether that includes an entrenched conservative military faction like the janissaries. We've used Greek Orthodox and Kurdish satellites to protect our Armenian border marches in the past but there's no indication whether anything like the janissary recruitment system was set up to gather troops from the millets. Our military leaders are a bit more receptive to modernization than the janissaries though. Much of our westernization has come through relations with equally militaristic Poland, who is shaping up to be this timeline's Prussia. At the very least our military leaders will likely continue supporting any military modernization efforts, but there's already a history of militaristic sultans overlooking economic and civilian advances in pursuit of the shiniest new guns from Europe. Hopefully the standard set by the last few sultans will help drive home to that a solid economic base is needed to support the sort of campaigns that brought down Armenia.
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Jan 25, 2012 23:55
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Also the region considered to be "Armenian" was much larger during the Medieval period before the Turkish migration pushed them out. The core of our timeline's Armenia (Cilicia) is where many Armenian refugees settled after the Seljuks invaded in the 9th and 10th centuries. This time around though the Byzantines and later Armenians were able to keep the Turkish tribes out of Anatolia.
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Jan 26, 2012 13:05
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Given the Jodo Shinshu background of the Ikko-Ikki movement would it be possible that they would adopt some form of theocratic democracy/republic? For example, something similar to modern day Iran with an elected body and a strong advisory council of scholars/monks. I hope whoever the German Napoleon is will be up to facing the fury of Poland  . Maybe liberal Russia will decide to give them a hand.
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Jan 26, 2012 23:52
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In any case with a much less expansive empire the British are likely devoting a great deal more attention on maintaining order in North America, as evidenced by the lack of progress by the rebels in Louisiana and the apparent crushing of the American revolt. The revolts have been smoldering for a few decades now so I'm sure the more forward looking MPs have already begun pushing for reforms like representation or autonomy. Of course it all depends on whether they actually push them - sending more troops seems to be keeping a lid on the situation so far. It'd be interesting to know what role the Cherokee might be playing in the revolts though. Wiz hasn't said much in a while about what European powers the Cherokee are aligned with.
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Jan 28, 2012 02:13
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Patter Song posted:So, I just noticed that Espanya has been almost completely been driven off of Java. Considering it's an extremely valuable island, that has to be embarrassing. Or they spun off some puppet kingdom vassals. It's hard to tell what's going on with just the overview territory map.
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Jan 28, 2012 04:50
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With the official dedication of the new Adana shipyards, I have this strange sense of foreboding that sometime in the coming century a sultan is going to say "I want have a *real* navy!"
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Jan 29, 2012 00:05
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It all depends on if  ) then the Revolution isn't going to stop til it hits the Channel.At least we can look on the bright side - the Russians will probably end up prettifying the Balkan borders! fakeedit - well what do you know
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Jan 29, 2012 21:05
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In the aftermath of the Revolution's death in Germany would we likely see a significant migration of German radicals into Russia? Historically almost 2.5 million ended up in Russia by the end of Vicky (1914) and that wasn't even with an ideological reason to go there. Even with the compromises of a constitutional monarchy Germany can't be a very welcoming place for the true believers right now, and the Russian Republic has millions of square miles of empty land to fill up (not to mention the need for millions of troops to throw into the meatgrinder). I'm just thinking in terms of Vicky's pop demographics and migration mechanics.
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Jan 29, 2012 21:39
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