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I agree with zorak, though with the airship and blimp mods making it easy (well, easier than using the nether) to travel long distances in a relatively short period of time, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth when you get killed a few thousand blocks from your spawn.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 08:40 |
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# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:00 |
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trandorian posted:Except I remember when beds were first introduced that it was going to ruin the game so much to not have to go back to original spawn according to a lot of people! You were supposed to have to trek a thousand blocks on foot with no items if you died, according to them , or minecraft wasn't fun. Strawmans are cool! wait, no, they aren't The point is intrinsic risk involved. The whole point of beds is allowing you to "set" where your home is. Your safe haven. If you leave your safe haven, you are no longer safe. You are forced to prepare for it, ready for it, mentally and physically in the game mechanics. The risk is all part of the whole bloody game. It's not a matter of ARE YOU HARDCORE ENOUGH, it's a a matter of basic risk-reward pysche stuff. You want good stuff, and you have to risk bad stuff to get good stuff. This is how "adventures" work. Walking into a shopping mall where your antics might result in you being sent outside the mall before coming back in to grab your MP3 player is different from, say, breaking into an abandoned run down shopping mall where you run the risk of physical harm / legal troubles. The adrenaline induced by the risk is why "adventuring" is fun at all. And when you gently caress up, yeah it's frustrating. Thankfully, this is just a video game though, and all it does is make you even more paranoid about the danger in the future. Which is kind of the entire point of "Minecraft": build a thing while holding off the risks at hand. Having a hand-burning moment that reminds you that there is an actual penalty to not being cautious keeps you always on your toes and aware of the risk. If the worst that can happen to you is that you have to walk ___ feet to grab your chest, or even just be sent back to your home, there's nothing to lose there. Worst case scenario you have to backtrack. Gasp. Without any sort of item decay or risk of losing items, the game is just creative with mobs in and a grind. e: it's the whole reason why the Nether has Ghasts, even. The reward is the fast travel/ rare resources, the risk is one of the most difficult to handle mobs in the game. Risk, reward. Danger from exploring from "home", associated rewards for managing to do so successfully. By approaching the situations intelligently you can mine yourself safely. That's basically Minecraft in a nutshell. Zorak fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 08:47 |
Zorak posted:Degrading items is really the only thing that ads any sustained value to a lot of the resources. The huge flaw with Terraria's model is that the moment you "move up" a tier, most of the resources of the previous tier become entirely pointless/ useless to collect. And anyway, even a system where items degraded but you could repair them, even if it costs the same amount of resources- like throwing a diamond into your diamond pickaxe to restore a third of its HP- would totally change the psychology of the system, and would be a lot more satisfying. Zorak posted:You want good stuff, and you have to risk bad stuff to get good stuff. This is how "adventures" work. Time is really the ultimate resource- you can use it to get anything in the game- and being sent back to spawn does cost you time. A lot less time than however long it took you to find those two diamonds in your sword, but some time in any case. So even if there were no additional penalty, being sent back to your spawn is in fact a real risk. In fact, it's the normal risk. Almost every time I die I know more or less where I was. It's just the time it takes to find my stuff and rearrange my inventory that I suffer... and I still really don't want to die and feel bad when I do. The game is not rendered shallow and meaningless. But the real point here isn't that things should be easier- if there were a similarly devastating penalty for death that somehow let you keep your stuff, that'd be okay with me. My issue is that it prevents the compelling gameplay feature of keeping and growing attached to your stuff. If an item gets sentimental value in Minecraft currently, you're going to want to put it in a chest for safe keeping... and then you might as well not have it. Minecraft is all about letting you make your own world, but it actively discourages you from making your own character through it's death mechanics. I've fallen in lava carying a stack of diamonds before, with my diamond sword and pick. I know that grief. I like that I felt that grief, because it was a really strong experience in the safe confines of a video game. But I've also felt the stress of choosing which items to risk on my next caving expedition... and time and again concluded I shouldn't bother bringing anything remotely valuable. Neither that stress nor the poorly (but smartly) equipped expedition add anything to the game. If I could just... not worry about my items and use what I wanted to use, I'd be a lot happier. I'd still like the thrill of combat in dark scary caves, just without all the bother with items. And full disclosure- I'll probably never play survival single player once 1.8 comes out. It'll be all creative mode for me when playing by myself. I've started playing online with friends recently and that's the only time any adventuring or grinding in Minecraft is fun for me anymore. So considering I kind of burnt out on adventuring the better part of a year ago, I may not have the best perspective on this issue.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 09:21 |
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Rozzbot posted:Which one of you is this? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=246324915403005&set=a.246324882069675.53881.165039663531531&type=1&theater I want to say something about the comments on this but I cannot find the words. The other photos with women in them are not much better. Ugh.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 09:23 |
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I agree risk makes the game more fun, one of the most common complaints in old multiplayer was no monsters/fall damage/etc. That said, terraria has a hookshot which is a massive oversight by minecraft.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 09:45 |
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Speaking as someone who generally plays Minecraft Survival as "super creative mode" with the difficulty as a minimum, I'm not sure it's the monsters and risk that make it. Oh, they're certainly a big part, but once you've built a safe base and know the basics of minecraft combat (which isn't really hard, it's not the most complex game here) it's really pretty superfluous, and dying pointlessly in the abyss is just a frustration. Really, the big thing that gives it longevity compared to something like Terraria is what Zorak kind of hit upon, namely the fact there are no tiers or "endgame". The only real difference between a starting minecraft character and a long-term one is that you probably have a bigger and cooler block base. You need an iron pick to get gold and diamond, but you can do that possibly within a few minutes of spawning, and you need a diamond pick to get obsidian, but that's of minimal use outside of nether gates and niche things. Beyond that, it's just a big lego kit where you have to mine the legos from the earth. But compare that with Terraria, which despite having a much deeper combat engine, also has clear "tiers" and progression, with an endgame you can "beat". Once you get the best stuff, there's no real motivation to continue, even if there's nothing really stopping you from building dumb block forts for fun like you can in minecraft. Really, this is why I think adding more combat depth - or more dangerously, an "endgame" - to Minecraft is something of a double-edged sword. Relatedly, also why making combat more difficult and adding more random/dangerous monsters; if you can't build safely, it eventually gets to the point where the only safe strategy is to build the smallest, cheapest base you can get away with, and then... do nothing. Bad for the game in the long run, there. Something like the Adventure Update is probably a good middle ground, adding support for the more dedicated action/exploration maps people do, while still having an open-ended survival world.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 10:03 |
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I started a new map with the Equivalent Exchange mod, and crossed my fingers for a good map. Seed:4459549485191646840 -44.42, 175.42 Enigmatica fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 10:11 |
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Akito12345 posted:So I'm releasing my new adventure map before the 1.8 update so I can get a chance to play the actual game instead of switching between an editor and the game. Give it a try and tell me how bad and broken it is! So I got to the ancient ruins (the place in the second picture), and I seem to be stuck. I wandered around the drat place for 2 ingame days trying to find the catacombs with no luck. Think you could point me in the right direction? I'm really enjoying it so far though, especially the hidden messages behind the clay. I literally ed irl at the Zorak is my Fursona one. Enigmatica posted:I started a new map with the Equivalent Exchange mod, and crossed my fingers for a good map. Oh come on dude, you can't post a picture of a world like that without the seed name.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 10:14 |
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i've received the chain world and have made my first tentative steps in it. i liked spawning in a bed hella high up! great view from here.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 10:31 |
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Minecraft 1.8 trailer is now out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYoO9XkCCHg
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 10:58 |
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Zorak posted:But "death chest" and a lack of timeline removes the risk inherent in traveling away from your bed/ spawn. Exploration loses all "risk" involved when there's no intrinsic danger involved. It's a common trope in RPGs, and I think that would be just as much fun.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 11:03 |
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Tw1tchy posted:Minecraft 1.8 trailer is now out! The trailer is not very good at presenting the new features.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 11:04 |
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Hungry Gerbil posted:The trailer is not very good at presenting the new features. No, not really, but I think of it as more of a teaser-trailer. Also in their "Making of" video you can see a lot more detail in the features. In the trailer though, you can see the new land generation with plains and oceans, new dungeons, endermen, new bow, experience, and creative mode!
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 11:06 |
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Yeah, I'm also pretty excited. Wipl there be a way to switch between creative and survival mode? Or maybe a way to import the map?
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 11:14 |
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No date, more time to finish my map. Best trailer I could ask for.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 11:18 |
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Interesting! From Jeb's twitter:Jeb's Twitter posted:If the the food bar is empty in MC 1.8, it will slowly drop your health to 5 hearts on easy, to 0.5 hearts on normal, and kill you on hard I was wondering how food would work. Seems pretty balanced.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 13:10 |
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Tw1tchy posted:Interesting! From Jeb's twitter: God, spawn-animals=false servers are going to be a bitch. Hopefully bread is nice and filling. Zorak posted:it's the whole reason why the Nether has Ghasts, even. The reward is the fast travel/ rare resources, the risk is one of the most difficult to handle mobs in the game. Risk, reward. Danger from exploring from "home", associated rewards for managing to do so successfully. By approaching the situations intelligently you can mine yourself safely. Man, you know, if the Adventure Update works as intended, and adventures are worth going on, maybe the Nether will finally be a bit better as a result. Specifically, the biome changes and their scaling. As it stands now, the Nether is really only useful for glowstone since traveling fifty chunks away from spawn won't give you anything different than traveling ten chunks away from spawn.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 13:30 |
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A Sassy Dog posted:Man, you know, if the Adventure Update works as intended, and adventures are worth going on, maybe the Nether will finally be a bit better as a result. Specifically, the biome changes and their scaling. As it stands now, the Nether is really only useful for glowstone since traveling fifty chunks away from spawn won't give you anything different than traveling ten chunks away from spawn. That really depends on the rough percentage of ocean in the world, I think - I'll use it to explore, but I'm going to feel a little let down if I've got a greater than 50% chance of winding up in the middle of the ocean if I exit the Nether without scouting first in a boat. Not that it wouldn't be great if that were the case, but the Nether would still be sort of useless.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 14:11 |
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In regards to item/weapon degradation, I think a simple way to repair your items would go a long way towards making the game feel a bit more involved. I think this could be combined with a simple leveling up of tools in order to give those tools a bit more value to the player. Perhaps a way to name them or customize them slightly. That way when you do die you're not just losing a pickaxe, you're losing your pickaxe. In a way it'd almost be like new items to collect, I can already imagine people grinding out tool levels so they can have a chest full of max level swords for the day that will never come. edit: I'm thinking small gains like 5 levels with like a 5% dig/damage increase per level. SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 14:21 |
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I want to have a 'shovel of creeper slaying +10'.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 14:26 |
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Eiba posted:I get that Minecraft isn't trying to go full on RPG like Terraria, but I really quite like persistent character growth, and it'd be more satisfying if I could safely keep my progress with me, rather than having to stash it in a chest and being reduced to zero all the time. I think any kind of innate stat increase would blur this awesome dynamic between the natural power of the outside world, its landscape and monsters, and the false limited power that you introduce and build for yourself. Stat increases probably wouldn’t ruin the feel of game, but it would deconstruct at least partly the excitement and uniqueness of this dynamic.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 14:59 |
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I would actually prefer if there were stat increases. I saw a bukkit plugin that would give certain perks when you reached a determined level threshold. For instance, at level 30 mining you would gain a 10% chance to get a double pop on whatever block you mined. This would require extensive balance, but you could extend it to all sorts of different things in the game. I would also like it if specific food had limited time stat boosts as well. Pork could, for example, offer you a 5% bonus to strength or whathaveyou. Tailoring foods for different situations gives each food a role, and makes for more interesting gameplay.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:19 |
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For those having trouble with/not liking losing stuff on dying, I believe Rei's Minimap V1.8 now has a death point option which makes getting back to the spot you died much easier. Just run to the point on the surface above your death point indicated by the minimap and dig down. Might be a good compromise.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:20 |
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You might have seen it, but the Yogscast did a teleconference at PAX, which is now on youtube. I always find such behind the scenes stuff really interesting, so I'm having fun watching them. http://youtu.be/LXB00OkNHEQ Edit: Oh god, the panel questions Iacen fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:25 |
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I'm curious. The guys who are saying you shouldn't drop stuff on death, what is the incentive to walk back to your house instead of jumping off a cliff or giving a creeper a hug so you can fast-travel home? Personally I think the fear of death adds something to this game, but it only does that if there are consequences for dying. If you respawn in your bed with all of your stuff, why is death bad?
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:38 |
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Meet in the middle, drop the stuff in your inventory but not the stuff on your hotbar.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:40 |
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King Hotpants posted:Personally I think the fear of death adds something to this game, but it only does that if there are consequences for dying. If you respawn in your bed with all of your stuff, why is death bad? But when that threat is actually called in, when you actually do die, the penalty is such that it's never enjoyable for me. Especially if you fall in goddamn lava. It's been frustrating and it's made me want to stop playing for a while. But never have I died and found my experience in any way enriched because of the penalty. You should lose something, but dumping your whole inventory on the ground is extreme. King Hotpants posted:I'm curious. The guys who are saying you shouldn't drop stuff on death, what is the incentive to walk back to your house instead of jumping off a cliff or giving a creeper a hug so you can fast-travel home? Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 15:43 |
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DONT CARE BUTAN posted:Meet in the middle, drop the stuff in your inventory but not the stuff on your hotbar. That'd just introduce a really annoying element of juggling your inventory every time you get something worth keeping, and what does that really add to the game experience?
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:00 |
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Extreme option: Take a note from Demon's Souls. Every time the player dies, the "world tendency" shifts towards black. As the world tendency darkens, more enemies (especially endermen) spawn, random biomes become infested with blight, and it rains more often. To shift the world tendency back towards white, craft 4 diamonds and a redstone torch into an Enlightening Gem. edit: I meant this as a joke, but a world tendency mod would actually be pretty drat cool Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:09 |
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Polo-Rican posted:Extreme option: Take a note from Demon's Souls. Every time the player dies, the "world tendency" shifts towards black. As the world tendency darkens, more enemies (especially endermen) spawn, random biomes become infested with blight, and it rains more often. To shift the world tendency back towards white, craft 4 diamonds and a redstone torch into an Enlightening Gem. This and permadeath would be neat alternative difficulty settings.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:11 |
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Vib Rib posted:That's just it. Fear of death should be there. I appreciate that. The threat of it, that danger, is very motivating. But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die. Dropping all of your stuff into a chest before you start working near lava is part of the game, as is kicking yourself the one time that you don't do it and end up dead. That internal debate you have when your inventory is full up with good stuff and you're low on health, wondering if you should head home or keep mining? That's part of the game too. Risk versus reward. Having to run back to that spot, frantic, hoping to get there before your items despawn, adds tension. You're charging back into an area that you know to be dangerous, since it just killed you. But if you don't, you lose everything. The trick is, it's nothing you can't get back eventually--the same stuff is available pretty much everywhere. You just have to dig for it. Unless Notch and Company do something drastic with experience, I don't see losing it being a huge penalty--I've lived this long without experience, after all. I'm not trying to say that you're doing it wrong or playing incorrectly or whatever, but I know that I would not still be playing Minecraft if Survival were just glorified Creative and there was no risk of loss.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:15 |
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“You have died. An Enderman has spawned somewhere in the world...”
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:21 |
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King Hotpants posted:But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die. The Yogbox adds death chests and I find that I actually enjoy the game more thanks to it.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:22 |
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quote:But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die. The only way I can enjoy Minecraft is on a multiplayer server I'm an admin on, and that is only because I can cheat myself items back if lose them. Single player is fun right up until the point I die with a lot of stuff in my inventory. At the very least, death should leave you with something - maybe only half or a third of your items are lost when you die. That way, you'll have something left to help you start over when you die, but you'll still take death seriously because there's no way of knowing just which items will be lost
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:25 |
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King Hotpants posted:I know that I would not still be playing Minecraft if Survival were just glorified Creative and there was no risk of loss. This is exactly how I feel about the game. Not a Twat posted:Single player is fun right up until the point I die with a lot of stuff in my inventory. I hope for your sake that Creative mode is also available in multiplayer, then you'll never have to worry about anything ever again.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:33 |
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Monicro posted:So I got to the ancient ruins
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:34 |
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This might be a long shot, but I'm looking for some pictures that were posted in the last thread; the pictures were of some guy's white, minimalist house that looked something like two cuboids stacked on top of each other, facing different directions. Did anyone save them?
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:34 |
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Not a Twat posted:No, it makes me (and many others) not want to play. And this is where we disagree. The way I see it, losing your stuff on death is the only real penalty Minecraft can impose. Your character is exactly the same five seconds after spawn as he is five hours after spawn, the only difference being the items you have with you. In other games you don't lose your inventory, but in other games there are other, more efficient ways to penalize you, whether that's progress or failing a mission or whatever. Obviously none of us know exactly how the experience system is going to work, but that might become an efficient way to penalize people for dying. For now, though, there's no other option. Gravitas Shortfall posted:I hope for your sake that Creative mode is also available in multiplayer, then you'll never have to worry about anything ever again. Let's not be mean. We disagree, that's all. Also, I love your username.
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:41 |
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Oh hey cool. In that trailer you can see they added gates for fences. Now those loving sheep can stop stepping all over my gardens
Dr. VooDoo fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Sep 6, 2011 |
# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:48 |
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# ? Apr 26, 2024 15:00 |
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Dr. VooDoo posted:Oh hey cool. In that trailer you can see they added fences for gates. Now those loving sheep can stop stepping all over my gardens Whoah, where? Now I can stop using ugly full sized wooden doors!
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# ? Sep 6, 2011 16:49 |