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Gutcruncher
Apr 16, 2005

Go home and be a family man!


chumbler posted:

but that just goes back to the usual problem of fighting games generally having awful or nonexistent tutorials (BB of course being an exception.)

You should really check out the tutorials in Virtua Fighter 4 Evo. I have no idea why more games dont have anything nearly that good.

VF also has the only fighting game singleplayer mode that I dont hate!

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Fayk
Aug 2, 2006

Sorry, my brain doesn't work so good...

Nice results/writeup and video links for the Vampire Savior tournament from Season's Beatings this year.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/cont...s-Beatings-2011

Dj Meow Mix
Jan 27, 2009

corgicorgicorgicorgi
rockin everywhere


Mason Dixon posted:

Given one of Daishi's earlier tweets mentioned something about publisher deadlines, and them being reasonably open to feedback during the various demos they've done to the international community so far, I don't think lack of effort will be the main cause if it turns out disappointing.

Fair enough. I can't help but be pessimistic though, and I love SC games.

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

Big Games Poster


Quoting from a couple pages back but whatever:

Fayk posted:

It's a little more complicated than that - I bet their designers are more competent (but not ideal) than you give them credit for...the problem is they are trying to serve two masters. They are trying to give the game enough depth to appeal to 'serious' players, while also trying to serve the market/martketing, et cetera. I doubt they think things like comeback mechanics are ideal, except they know it's needed for the game to be successful.

They aren't trying to make the best game. They're trying to make the best commercially-viable game.

Dumbing down the core game for the sake of a player group that lacks the skill or the inclination to grasp or even notice basic FG mechanics is short-sighted and completely counterproductive, and I don't understand why Capcom thinks it's the best way forward. Bad or inexperienced players are going to continue to use "brokenness" or "imbalance" as a mental crutch every time they lose, regardless of whether it's true or not, so rather than making some futile attempt to bring the game down to their level they should just pack them with shiny trinkets and gimmicks and fanservice that allow people to enjoy the game on multiple levels even if they never improve as a player - elements that are almost completely independent from the way the games actually play.

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


It's almost as if modern businesses were entirely dedicated to short-term results at the expense of long-term ramifications.

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

Big Games Poster


Dumbing down their systems isn't really playing a part in their current success, though - MvC3 didn't sell 2.5m copies because of magic pixels and xfactor, it sold because it's fast and flashy and lets you pit Wolverine against Wesker and because Deadpool yells WELCOME TO DIE and because there's a kickin' rad remix of the Bionic Commando theme. It could have played exactly like MvC2 and it wouldn't have mattered to the majority of the customer base, so why gently caress with it?

40 OZ
May 16, 2003


PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Dumbing down the core game for the sake of a player group that lacks the skill or the inclination to grasp or even notice basic FG mechanics is short-sighted and completely counterproductive, and I don't understand why Capcom thinks it's the best way forward. Bad or inexperienced players are going to continue to use "brokenness" or "imbalance" as a mental crutch every time they lose, regardless of whether it's true or not, so rather than making some futile attempt to bring the game down to their level they should just pack them with shiny trinkets and gimmicks and fanservice that allow people to enjoy the game on multiple levels even if they never improve as a player - elements that are almost completely independent from the way the games actually play.

I don't think it is as simple as

Competitive players want "X" thing

Casual players want "Y" Thing

Both sides need each other. Casual players want to be playing the same game that Daigo is playing. They want to play the same game that other people are spending 30 hours a week in arcades to get better. They wanna play the same character as Clockwork and watch him on stream, cheer for him and maybe gank a combo or setup. They wanna post troll comments on youtube against some guy who plays a character that beats them up on XBL. Mostly, it feels like instead of just playing a video game that you are participating in something that is somehow bigger than you versus your roommate.

Competitive players need the casual players to be happy too. If SF4 was hard to play then there wouldn't be a jillion people at evo cheering for them, there wouldn't be guys who haven't won majors getting sponsorship deals (or sponsorship deals at all), and so on.

edit- It is a complicated ecosystem and i'm not sure there are any clear cut rules to make the most people happy.

40 OZ fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 19:20

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


40 OZ posted:

Both sides need each other. Casual players want to be playing the same game that Daigo is playing. They want to play the same game that other people are spending 30 hours a week in arcades to get better. They wanna play the same character as Clockwork and watch him on stream, cheer for him and maybe gank a combo or setup. They wanna post troll comments on youtube against some guy who plays a character that beats them up on XBL. Mostly, it feels like instead of just playing a video game that you are participating in something that is somehow bigger than you versus your roommate.

I don't think the people who even know that Daigo exists are the same people that Ninja is talking about.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I don't think the people who even know that Daigo exists are the same people that Ninja is talking about.

I beg to differ. I'd like to cite the success of Gootecks and Mike Ross youtube channel. What percentage of people buying gootecks t-shirts do you estimate are top players?

But I bet you that they can tell you why they hate Noel Brown or what happened to Daigo at evo this year. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, btw.

I'm saying it in the context of, both casual and competitive need each other to be reasonably happy with the game.

40 OZ fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 19:25

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


40 OZ posted:

I beg to differ. I'd like to cite the success of Gootecks and Mike Ross youtube channel. What percentage of people buying gootecks t-shirts do you estimate are top players?

But I bet you that they can tell you why they hate Noel Brown or what happened to Daigo at evo this year.

You're coming at this from the wrong end. The majority of people who buy video games never even play multiplayer, let alone care whether it has a tournament scene.

When Capcom introduces ultras or x-factor or whatever they're not catering to the people who go "oh, hey; comeback mechanics reward you for taking damage and partially flatten the skill difference between players" and then decide whether they like that or not. They're catering to people who wouldn't like losing without ever feeling like they had a chance, but don't even think about it consciously.

Those are the people they want to make happy. They're operating at a lower and broader level than anyone who even stops to consider theorycrafting.

Zyklon B Zombie
Feb 13, 2005

Circling Overland

Anyone watching fighting streams or knowing about any famous fighting games players is a tiny, tiny part of the sales of games like Street Fighter. If you cater towards the fighting game community solely you are going to sell a thousand copies of your game. Most people who pick up the game are going to play some single player, maybe throw some fireballs at the friends when they come over, get rocked online a few time, and that's that.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003


Zyklon B Zombie posted:

Anyone watching fighting streams or knowing about any famous fighting games players is a tiny, tiny part of the sales of games like Street Fighter.

Do we know that for a fact? Evo 2011 got 2,000,000 unique viewers.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/s...-unique-viewers

That is a little less than how many copies of SSF4 was sold, worldwide. What am I missing, here? How can this be a "tiny, tiny" segment of players?

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010

Just a huge slab of beef going "Bring it"

p.s. please ignore the ridiculous belt bra

40 OZ posted:

Do we know that for a fact? Evo 2011 got 2,000,000 unique viewers.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/s...-unique-viewers

That is a little less than how many copies of SSF4 was sold, worldwide. What am I missing, here? How can this be a "tiny, tiny" segment of players?

How many people would have watched Evo 3 years before that when the main games were the hardcore fighting gamers' games of choice?

chumbler fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 19:54

ZerodotJander
Dec 29, 2004

Chinaman, explain!

Plenty of people will watch a stream without even playing the game, it's just a spectacle. A lot of the people physically in the Evo audience are just people walking around looking to see what thousands people are screaming about.

Also, Evo isn't a good picture of the FG community as a whole - it's the biggest event of the year. It's like using the Superbowl to gauge the popularity of Football - it's one measure, sure, but viewership during the season is more meaningful.

Compare to Devastation, which got less than 2/5ths of Evo's total views, who knows on uniques. Or Season's Beatings, which didn't even break a million.

ZerodotJander fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 19:59

Fenn the Fool!
Oct 24, 2006
woohoo

It seems pretty clear that fighting game tournaments as a competitive and spectator event is growing at a pretty significant pace. The success of a fighting game as a competitive platform is dependent on a much higher degree of technical knowledge and game design than is seen in most other generas and therefore many corporate structures are going to fail to understand that; in doing so they hamper their product's performance in this field. At the end of the day if the big studios gently caress their games up to a large enough degree then smaller developers will step in to fill that hole in the market. Thankfully the genera takes well to 2d graphics and so a development team with a lot of experience and knowledge of what makes a fighting game tick doesn't need as strong a technical background to make a fighter as they would to make a game of another genera (yeah, I'm pretty excited to see if Skullgirls is going to have a significant impact on the market).

Sestze
Jun 6, 2004

Yes! Look at me level up! I would do me. I would do me HARD.

NecroMonster posted:

Down Right Fierce.

This isn't hard.
That name owns.

40 OZ
May 16, 2003


ZerodotJander posted:

Compare to Devastation, which got less than 2/5ths of Evo's total views, who knows on uniques. Or Season's Beatings, which didn't even break a million.



These are not "tiny, tiny" numbers compared to how many people are buying these games.

Is it controversial to say that ScrubGuy69420 in 2011 probably watches a stream here and there, looks up clockwork matches on youtube, subscribes to cross counter, and so on?

I think this is the new reality, and the numbers show, at the very least, that a shift in this direction is taking place.

40 OZ fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 20:11

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


Tuxedo Catfish is right. At the risk of sounding misanthropic and goony, at least 85% of the population's eyes will glaze over when you try to tell them that it's possible to pay attention to the buttons they were pushing. They get angry when they lose, and comeback mechanics randomize the game so they lose less often.

They demonstrated the Gems system at Comic Con to a room full of Comic Con Attendees by having random people from the crowd come up to the stage who had never played Street Fighter and beat Seth Killian using Auto-Block, Auto-Tech, and Damage gems. My point is not that they actually beat S-kill, but rather the room applauded when that happened.

If that demonstration happened at Evo, S-kill would have been booed offstage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ120_VMPqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=307asEikDrw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RPWH4A58c8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAaYeN8uDBY

People aren't that noble.

Broken Loose fucked around with this message at Oct 21, 2011 around 20:23

Zand
Jul 9, 2003

~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Quoting from a couple pages back but whatever:


Dumbing down the core game for the sake of a player group that lacks the skill or the inclination to grasp or even notice basic FG mechanics is short-sighted and completely counterproductive, and I don't understand why Capcom thinks it's the best way forward. Bad or inexperienced players are going to continue to use "brokenness" or "imbalance" as a mental crutch every time they lose, regardless of whether it's true or not, so rather than making some futile attempt to bring the game down to their level they should just pack them with shiny trinkets and gimmicks and fanservice that allow people to enjoy the game on multiple levels even if they never improve as a player - elements that are almost completely independent from the way the games actually play.

Capcom doesnt give a poo poo and it is plainly obvious that you are confusing what you WANT their goal to be with what their goal actually is. Their goal is not to create a fantasticly balanced, competitive game that will survive for ages. Their goal is to create a game that will last until the next game comes out, that will not have staying power so that more games will sell. This is why UMVC3 is coming out 9 months after MVC3, and why rapid-fire revisions of SF4 are occurring. Capcom stands to gain nothing from supporting and balancing a game that has no microtransactions, they only stand to lose money by increasing the longevity of a single game (because people will be less inclined to buy a new game if their old games are still getting hella play). Capcom is a company and they want to make money. They are not noble game designers out there to make competitively viable games for the community to play. They want to hire Dimps to create Capcom branded content so they can get money

Shadow Ninja 64
May 21, 2007

"I stood there, wondering why the puck was getting bigger...

and then it hit me."


This week's Skullgirls Friday Night Fights is up on IGN, it's Master Chibi vs. Rithli in a solo Ms. Fortune vs. solo Parasoul match: http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/10/2...ay-night-fights

Buhbuhj
Jul 14, 2004

Wer mit Ungeheuern kampft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

That was a really slow match and not really a good way to show off anything besides how good the backgrounds are starting to look.

Sade
Aug 3, 2009

Can't touch this.
No really, you can't


Damage is wayyyyyy low in 1v1 matches. 4 and a half minutes is a really long time for 3 rounds of any fighting game.

The voices for the Egrets kinda loving own. Hope Ms. Fortune's voice actress is as good as the rest have been so far.

Gamest Mook
Jun 22, 2011

by Ozmaugh


Buhbuhj posted:

That was a really slow match and not really a good way to show off anything besides how good the backgrounds are starting to look.

I liked it but I wouldn't complain if the game was sped up some more. It's not going to happen though.

Gamest Mook fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2011 around 03:11

Cromlech
Jan 5, 2007

TOODLES

You'd think that with all of the comparisons they made to Marvel 2, Skullgirls would be a lot faster. It still looks really promising either way, though. Is there a two button dash shortcut?

animatorZed
Jan 2, 2008
falling down

Sade posted:

Damage is wayyyyyy low in 1v1 matches. 4 and a half minutes is a really long time for 3 rounds of any fighting game.

I take it you've never played IaMP

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

Big Games Poster


Zand posted:

Capcom doesnt give a poo poo and it is plainly obvious that you are confusing what you WANT their goal to be with what their goal actually is. Their goal is not to create a fantasticly balanced, competitive game that will survive for ages. Their goal is to create a game that will last until the next game comes out, that will not have staying power so that more games will sell. This is why UMVC3 is coming out 9 months after MVC3, and why rapid-fire revisions of SF4 are occurring. Capcom stands to gain nothing from supporting and balancing a game that has no microtransactions, they only stand to lose money by increasing the longevity of a single game (because people will be less inclined to buy a new game if their old games are still getting hella play). Capcom is a company and they want to make money. They are not noble game designers out there to make competitively viable games for the community to play. They want to hire Dimps to create Capcom branded content so they can get money

What I am saying is that the factors that encourage most people to buy a big mainstream FG like SF, MvC or MK are usually ancillary to the actual fighting, so loving with the systems is not only the least effective thing they can do to further the promotion of the game to casuals or non-FG guys but it will eventually have a net negative effect across all FGs in general (like the kind that SFxTK is bringing on).

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


The problem with tonight's FNF isn't with the damage or speed, but rather that the players weren't very good.

Gamest Mook
Jun 22, 2011

by Ozmaugh


I thought those players were some of the best we've seen in terms of basic fighting game ability. They definitely weren't maximising damage though.

rocket USA
Sep 14, 2011


The only issue there is a 1v1 match with players who aren't very familiar with their characters doesn't make for a compelling watch, even if their spacing and hit confirms are on point.

PalmTreeFun
Apr 25, 2010

*toot*


rocket USA posted:

The only issue there is a 1v1 match with players who aren't very familiar with their characters doesn't make for a compelling watch, even if their spacing and hit confirms are on point.

The worst part is that it makes the game look sort of boring. Which it's anything but if you watch streams where people are decent or better at the game. Also it's IGN, so a lot of people are watching this. I mean, IGN may not be good, but they're one of the biggest "gaming journalism" sites out there.

Gutcruncher posted:

You should really check out the tutorials in Virtua Fighter 4 Evo. I have no idea why more games dont have anything nearly that good.

VF also has the only fighting game singleplayer mode that I dont hate!

I have this game, but it seems only marginally better than regular fighting games. It basically just throws a fighting game dictionary at you and says "here, hope you know where to start."

HORSEPORN
Oct 7, 2008


Fighting games are actually becoming insanely popular outside of the "hardcore gamer" demographic and it's easy to see why. Almost everyone has played some version of SF2 at some point in their life. When I booted up SSF4 on my cousin's tv at a family dinner to show her how much better her tv would look if she actually used HDMI cables (yes, she's dumb,) the very first thing out of anyone's mouth was "that looks just like it did ten years ago!"


While they're incredibly deep and complicated, everyone can enjoy watching a fighting game because the basic premise is simple: do combos and reduce the other guy's lifebar to zero before he does the same to you. Knowing things like frame data or the amount of invincibility on seth's DP isn't required to enjoy watching fighting games. This is the same reason SC1 was so popular as a spectator event in korea. Everything is graphically clean and easy to understand. It's not like WC3 where there are huge explosions cluttering the screen during the action.


People like fighting games because everything is right there for you. You don't need to understand the execution required to do something like s.lk, s.lk, c.mp xx HP TK feint XX SJC MK/LK burnkick to see that it's flashy as gently caress. Look at the amount of people walking around at SB6 and not even entering anything for reference. We had three people in our group that didn't even enter, they just plopped 50 bucks down on the venue fee to watch.


Commentary needs to be better and the cursing should be toned down as well (no matter how much I hate saying that,) before sponsors start looking at FG's as something beneficial to dump money into. Now is a weird time in the community because it's right on the brink of becoming mainstream in the vein of SC2 and a lot of players aren't ready for that kind of popularity and I don't think our tournament format is set up to handle it yet.


Time will tell but generally what I think needs to happen is:

-Better production on streams. The streamers themselves are excellent but internet quality at the venue needs to be first priority now, not an afterthough.

-An actual points/seeding format of some sort or even a league. Cole tried this and it didn't work out but I don't think he went about it properly. Generally day1/2 of a tournament is underwatched due to matches being mostly one sided until deep into pools. Maybe run invite only leagues on day 1/2 of tournaments during primetime instead of exhibitions and the like.

-Better announcers. People like chen/ultradavid/skisonic/etc are good announcers but if you compare the quality of commentary itself to something like MNFootball or even SC2 it just plain falls short. Ultradavid should be paired with someone like yipes for the good old fashioned play-by-play/color commentator setup, for example. Wrestling used this format to exceptional success for a reason. A lot of matches have commentary that ends up feeling like a coach watching your gametape and commentating on how to improve your performance. It's just boring to the casual observer. For the best commentator setup around look no further than team "rush hour." Aquasilk knows his stuff and keeps it simple enough for the layman, Hu provides color and comedy.

-Players need to be more open to the community. Generally the top players are excellent about this but the mid-level players can be a pain to deal with because of their little man syndrome. For instance, we have players in our community who will tell you to just quit since you'll never catch up to top players which is untrue as well as harmful to the community at large. The same players don't actually win any tournaments but are kings of poo poo mountain so to speak. The FGC as a whole needs to mature and be more welcoming to new players. Going 0-2 at a ranbat is going to suck for anyone but if the players that beat you are willing to tell you how/why you lost and how to improve you're probably going to come back next week. EVERYONE, not just some people, needs to be willing to welcome new players into the community and help them out instead of treating them like free money in the pot which is too often the case.


I could write poorly worded posts about this for days but I think it's best if I stop now because typing on this phone in the backseat of a car is starting to hurt my fingers and eyes. Sorry for any formatting or stupidity issues contained within this post.

Gamest Mook
Jun 22, 2011

by Ozmaugh


Fighting games should not be a spectator sport. I'm not interested in pandering to people who have no interest in playing. That conveys no benefit to anyone but the <1% of people who stand to benefit monetarily.

Sade
Aug 3, 2009

Can't touch this.
No really, you can't


More spectators means people talking about fighting games. If people are talking about fighting games that's free publicity, and more publicity means more people happening across a fighting game website or hearing about a fight club at the local college or whatever, which means more new players. More people buying fighting games means more incentive for developers to keep making and supporting them, and more new games coming out on the regular means more opportunities for people who might not otherwise have given a poo poo to start playing. Of course that's ignoring issues like market oversaturation and poo poo like that, but it's still not hard to see why nurturing all aspects of the community is good for the genre... unless you've made a personal crusade out of just sitting around and playing old games all the time. Oh, hey Polarity, what's up?

Sade fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2011 around 06:08

Gamest Mook
Jun 22, 2011

by Ozmaugh


To what extent are you willing to dilute what the scene is about to pander to outsiders? Whenever people start talking about this kind of thing it all sounds like turning the scene into "professional" pro-gaming bullshit to me. Obviously everyone wants more players but scene growth is not the be-all end-all. Everything should be catered to existing players first and foremost. This doesn't mean excluding new people, it just means they come in on our terms. I don't see why there's anything wrong with that unless bringing in the maximum amount of people is the only thing you care about, to the detriment of everything else.

Gamest Mook fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2011 around 06:09

Broken Loose
Dec 25, 2002

PROGRAM
A > - - -
LR > > - -
LL > - - -


HORSEPORN and Sade are totally right, FGs need to be spectator-friendly in positive ways, and it is possible to do that without turning into MLG.

If it wasn't for scene growth, we wouldn't have Madcatz TE's amongst other amazing things. Sure, we got lovely games and lovely people, but a smaller scene wouldn't have prevented that in any way (as history has shown).

MadRhetoric
Feb 18, 2011

I POSSESS QUESTIONABLE TASTE IN TOUHOU GAMES


Broken Loose is (actually) right for once, the scene opening up is nothing but a good thing. Some of HORSEPORN's points might be more personal opinion (the swearing and popping off really creates a familiar atmosphere, I think), but an open and welcoming community means a higher chance of creating new strong players. The wheat always gets separated from the chaff, as well.

Nobody should ignore you and OGs in the community, pol, nor is anyone saying to completely pander to people who are not like you.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

mumblecrew

HORSEPORN posted:

-Better announcers. People like chen/ultradavid/skisonic/etc are good announcers but if you compare the quality of commentary itself to something like MNFootball or even SC2 it just plain falls short. Ultradavid should be paired with someone like yipes for the good old fashioned play-by-play/color commentator setup, for example. Wrestling used this format to exceptional success for a reason. A lot of matches have commentary that ends up feeling like a coach watching your gametape and commentating on how to improve your performance. It's just boring to the casual observer. For the best commentator setup around look no further than team "rush hour." Aquasilk knows his stuff and keeps it simple enough for the layman, Hu provides color and comedy.

The problem is, people like UD aren't good announcers. I fall asleep when he commentates marvel, and not just because he doesn't use yipes-isms. Everything he says is a variation of "there's a dead character" after anyone gets touched no matter what, or some other thing that's blindingly obvious to me, someone extremely new to FGs. The things Yipes says, if you look past his jokes, are generally much more insightful. It's possible this is just a result of me only watching marvel outside of top 8 in other games, but people like UD and Chen are extremely boring and whitewashed.

e: I agree with your other points though.

Countblanc fucked around with this message at Oct 22, 2011 around 06:35

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


MNF football is quality commentating?

Ixiggle
Apr 28, 2009


I remember watching Evo on stream and someone in the IRC described Chen as the John Madden of fighting games. Even back then when I had only been playing SF4 for like a month the commentary seemed really useless (I don't think you need to explain what FADCs are for top 8!).

For some reason though aside from maybe Yipes my favorite commentator is MrQuotes so I probably am an awful judge.

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Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

mumblecrew

Van Ishikawa posted:

I remember watching Evo on stream and someone in the IRC described Chen as the John Madden of fighting games. Even back then when I had only been playing SF4 for like a month the commentary seemed really useless (I don't think you need to explain what FADCs are for top 8!).

For some reason though aside from maybe Yipes my favorite commentator is MrQuotes so I probably am an awful judge.

Things like FADCs are cool to explain (I have no idea what they are), but not during matches. Football games have time-outs and breaks and detail strategies and replays during those. Fighting games have pauses between sets, and those would be PERFECT for going over the last match or explaining terminology used during the previous game, or something. That's a lot of dead air that could be used for stuff people want/need to know to enjoy the matches.

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