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Sexy Randal posted:Holy poo poo, in I don't know how many years of watching hockey I've never noticed the referee force-field lines where they talk to the off-ice dudes. My mind is blown. I don't have the gif but the one with Joe Thornton giving Henrik Sedin the stink finger outside of the ref crease is amazing.
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| # ? Apr 20, 2012 18:24 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 03:05 |
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If I found my way into the NHL, there would end up being a specific rule against prop comedy on the bench.
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| # ? Apr 20, 2012 18:36 |
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Is the post series handshake in the rulebook or is it just a tradition that's never died?
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 02:14 |
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it's just a tradition and it is a good one
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 02:30 |
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Orgophlax posted:Is the post series handshake in the rulebook or is it just a tradition that's never died?
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 03:27 |
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Orgophlax posted:Is the post series handshake in the rulebook or is it just a tradition that's never died? I think that's the best part, and it tells the whole story of the playoffs in a nutshell. "Maybe I fought you in December, or you beat us in January, or whatever. Good series, you won and I'm man enough to say it, see you next year."
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 03:43 |
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Seriously, at the end of the day it's still a loving game and showing some amount of respect to your opponents is admirable.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 03:48 |
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I'm not sure I could do it, I get that it's a classy thing to do, but I'm not sure I could be civil to a group of guys who just handed me my rear end. But I probably wouldn't even want to talk to my teammates for a while after losing a playoff series either.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 03:52 |
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xzzy posted:I'm not sure I could do it, I get that it's a classy thing to do, but I'm not sure I could be civil to a group of guys who just handed me my rear end. I don't want to sound crass at all, but that's why I respect the professionals in this situation. They perform a gesture that we force first graders to do out of respect for both tradition and opponent. I think it's this kind of unstated protocol that makes the run for the cup so great.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 03:57 |
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xzzy posted:I'm not sure I could do it, I get that it's a classy thing to do, but I'm not sure I could be civil to a group of guys who just handed me my rear end. In beer league, we shake hands after every game.  Ninja edit: in the NHL it's not a "congratulations" handshake. It's a "condolences" handshake. Ninjaer edit: ok, really it's both. Seriously. Classiest ending in all of sports. Dangerllama fucked around with this message at Apr 22, 2012 around 04:29 |
| # ? Apr 22, 2012 04:27 |
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Dangerllama posted:In beer league, we shake hands after every game. It's seriously awesome how fast beer league goes from "argh gently caress you dirty shitbags!" to "hey, fun game man".
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 04:44 |
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Halah posted:I don't want to sound crass at all, but that's why I respect the professionals in this situation. They perform a gesture that we force first graders to do out of respect for both tradition and opponent. I think it's this kind of unstated protocol that makes the run for the cup so great. That was my favorite part of baseball.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 04:58 |
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It surprises me that other leagues haven't bothered to try and adopt that. I guess baseball players can't let anything get in the way of spraying champagne on themselves every time they win a playoff series.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 06:12 |
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Remember when Larry Walker forced everyone to shake hands after the Cards won a series? Boy were people loving mad about that.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 07:23 |
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nature6pk posted:Remember when Larry Walker forced everyone to shake hands after the Cards won a series? Boy were people loving mad about that. Being a Dodgers' fan, I thought that was cool as hell and I was proud of the Dodger players who went out there and did it despite losing the series.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 09:59 |
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Is there any point to allowing fighting besides attracting fans? Do you think the game would be better or worse off without it?
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 18:07 |
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actionjackson posted:Is there any point to allowing fighting besides attracting fans? Do you think the game would be better or worse off without it? Tradition, mostly. Emotions run high in hockey and sometimes letting 2 guys fight is better than one of them swinging his stick at someone's head. I don't think it would change much since it's not like there are fights every game. It would be the death knell of enforcer-type players, though.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 18:32 |
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actionjackson posted:Is there any point to allowing fighting besides attracting fans? Do you think the game would be better or worse off without it? I'll try and explain this in some detail as best I can. Pro fighting arguments: 1. Entertainment value. It is sort of a competitive advantage that hockey has over other sports, and it also has some brand equity of sorts in that everyone who knows what hockey is knows that fighting is a part of the game. I don't think it is necessarily a draw per se, but it does help differentiate the game and that has a lot of value. 2. It serves a tactical function. It is a pretty effective way to affect opponents' behavior in certain situations. If you know a team will come after you for bad behavior, it really does change the way you look at situations. Players are less likely to crash the net, finish checks, etc, if they're thinking they might get challenged as a result. More importantly, it will make players think twice about taking cheap shots or other dirty things, and that is a good thing for the game. Maybe the most famous example of this was John Ferguson in the 1965 Finals. Most of the people involved agreed that this fight (that happened in game 1) completely took the air out of the Hawks sails, and it gave the Canadiens stars a ton of room to work. 3. It serves a strategic function. This takes two forms: one like what I mentioned above: players watch their P's and Q's more carefully, and over the course of a season or a series this can set a tone between two teams. The other thing is that fighting (and playing rough in general) can serve to distract the other team from playing the game, if they get all concerned about getting guys back or winning the roughstuff battle over winning the game. 4. It helps make the game safer. This is really where the hockey fight came from: people figured out early on that it was better for everyone concerned if players dropped their sticks and gloves before doing something nasty. As body checking became more important, it helped give players an effective but less dangerous safety valve. Players are very rarely hurt in hockey fights, but guys get hurt all the time by dirty hits, and if sticks were used, they'd be a lot more dangerous than bare fists. To that end, the way the NHL has changed fighting (instigator, third man in, etc) has, in my opinion, led pretty directly to the environment we see now where guys have very little respect for their opponents. When guys know that their actions won't be punished by the other team, they're a lot more likely to do dirty poo poo, and the result is stuff like Raffi Torres and James Neal. As for con arguments: 1. The "heavyweight championship" is a stupid sideshow. This is a fair complaint; over the last several years fights have been limited more and more to largely irrelevant fights between totally unskilled players (enforcers) who are paid just to fight. In order for fighting to serve its intended function, guys have to be willing to challenge and stand with anyone on the ice, and the whole "enforcer" thing messed up that dynamic. 2. Other levels of hockey don't have fighting and it isn't a big deal. Mainly, we're looking at college hockey in the US as the example. I do think that the game there suffers a bit without the added element of fighting, but that's just my opinion. 3. General violence in hockey is bad argument. Fighting certainly can be an escalator, and an argument can certainly be made that violence above a certain level is bad for the sport. How much fighting is correlated with this line is a matter of opinion, more or less.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 18:54 |
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bewbies posted:2. Other levels of hockey don't have fighting and it isn't a big deal. Mainly, we're looking at college hockey in the US as the example. I do think that the game there suffers a bit without the added element of fighting, but that's just my opinion. Just want to add to the information that that all the European hockey leagues have a ban on fighting as well; players get ejected by default if they drop the gloves. Same with all the international tournaments. So basically it's just the North American leagues that let fighting go.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 19:15 |
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bewbies posted:To that end, the way the NHL has changed fighting (instigator, third man in, etc) has, in my opinion, led pretty directly to the environment we see now where guys have very little respect for their opponents. When guys know that their actions won't be punished by the other team, they're a lot more likely to do dirty poo poo, and the result is stuff like Raffi Torres and James Neal. quote:2. Other levels of hockey don't have fighting and it isn't a big deal. Mainly, we're looking at college hockey in the US as the example. I do think that the game there suffers a bit without the added element of fighting, but that's just my opinion.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 19:25 |
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bewbies posted:4. It helps make the game safer. This is really where the hockey fight came from: people figured out early on that it was better for everyone concerned if players dropped their sticks and gloves before doing something nasty. As body checking became more important, it helped give players an effective but less dangerous safety valve. Players are very rarely hurt in hockey fights, but guys get hurt all the time by dirty hits, and if sticks were used, they'd be a lot more dangerous than bare fists. Becuase Eddie Shore didn't almost kill a guy due to a dirty hit? I don't think hockey was safer earlier, or that it had less injuries. But there was less hockey overall, and injuries were less likely to be treated and reported. I'd rather let the referees do the enforcing, and givin them more tools if neccesary to do it, where it's still safe for the players, but physical enough to keep it hockey.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 20:57 |
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My only problem with getting rid of fighting is that there are just too many awesome fights in nhl history. Probert-domi, St. Patty's day massacre are a couple blackhawks ones. Iginla-lecavelier is another that comes to mind. I agree that John Scott and kevin westgarth and their ilk don't belong at all anymore, but cal clutterbuck? That dude owns a lot.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 21:34 |
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I never understood why hockey players don't take real fighting lessons. Sure, you can hammer on a guy with your meat claw, but how about taking a boxing course and learning how to feel him out, parry and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PlNzARV0XM KABOOM
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 22:59 |
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Anders posted:Becuase Eddie Shore didn't almost kill a guy due to a dirty hit? Well, I was referring to the era in which relatively modern protective equipment did exist but yes Eddie Shore did almost kill someone. So did Newsy Lalonde. I do think that it is pretty much unequivocal that there are more hits from behind, charges, elbows, etc over the last couple of years than there were 20 years ago. There are a lot of factors that go into why this is the case, but I think that the relative lack of on-ice accountability is certainly one of them.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 23:13 |
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Zat posted:Just want to add to the information that that all the European hockey leagues have a ban on fighting as well; players get ejected by default if they drop the gloves. Same with all the international tournaments. So basically it's just the North American leagues that let fighting go. The EIHL in the UK allows fighting though. Don't know if that counts as European or not in terms of Ice Hockey. And it's handshakes after every game. I guess British Ice Hockey is just strange. If there were fights every single game it'd get a bit much, but as it tends to only be once in a while it can be quite exciting.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 23:34 |
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McDragon posted:The EIHL in the UK allows fighting though. Don't know if that counts as European or not in terms of Ice Hockey. And it's handshakes after every game. I guess British Ice Hockey is just strange. EIHL is a really really poor league though, worse than the OHL/QMJHL/WHL for example.
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| # ? Apr 22, 2012 23:36 |
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nice mattimer posted:I never understood why hockey players don't take real fighting lessons. Sure, you can hammer on a guy with your meat claw, but how about taking a boxing course and learning how to feel him out, parry and I'm sure alot of them do. At the very least they learn how to protect themselves in a fight if they ever do end up in one, and the more serious fighters that will be going on a regular basis quite often train in MMA or boxing in the off-season. I think that you'll need fighting in hockey as long as people like Steve Downie, Dan Carcillo, and Raffi Torres have a place on a 23 man roster in this league. If the owners and management of the 30 clubs actually worked on getting that element out of the game then you could start looking at taking it away.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 00:43 |
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Counterpoint: I'm pretty sure one Mike Komisarek took boxing lessons when he was in Montreal. Go look up Mike Komisarek fights on youtube, I'll wait.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 01:02 |
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The thing about fighting in hockey is that it's extremely codified (unofficially of course). Typically you don't just drop your gloves and start punching someone without them accepting. Staged fights between enforcers are bullshit and they don't have a purpose in the game at all. The "best" fights, and the majority of the ones you're seeing now are pretty organic; they spring up from emotions running high and play getting physical, and they're usually between players who actually play more than 2 minutes a game. A lot of people complaining about fighting after big hits are talking about these kind of fights, and usually they're more in response to the general tone being set than just one hit in specific. A good example of more organic fights are the Letang/Timmonen and Crosby/Giroux fights from game 3 of their series this year. Nothing was going Pittsburgh's way and there was a pretty big scrum behind the net. Eventually tempers flared (after Crosby batted Vorachek's glove away from him  ) and a couple people paired off. Another good example of a fight arising from the flow of the game is Joe Pavelski vs Kris Russell.This kind of stuff is a far cry from the stuff you used to see with players like Colton Orr, Georges Laraque and Eric Goddard, players who were literally only on the team to fight. It was really ridiculous and it's starting to die down as a role on teams, especially with the recent deaths of Rick Rypien, Wade Belak and Derek Boogaard. All three of those players passed away this past offseason, and all three struggled with mental illness or drug addiction, which may have been caused by repeated brain trauma. Despite the recent deaths, I don't think that fighting needs to be removed from the NHL wholesale; rather, I think that the role of the enforcer and staged fighting needs to die (fortunately this seems to be happening). Organic fights like the ones above are a far cry from two enforcers lining up and pounding at each other for no reason.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 01:05 |
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Organic fights can be pretty awesome. Shane Doan and Jarome Iginla are prime example of players who are as far from enforcers as you can get(both are regurarly amongst the top scorers in their respective teams and both are also captains over their respective teams) but can still fight with the best fighters out there. But even classical enforcers are moving towards being more of an asset for their team. Paul Bissonnette, known for fights and being a funny guy on Twitter, have moved into becoming a capable injury callup for the fourth line instead of just being an enforcer. He doesn't score points but he doesn't let many guys past him because not only can he fight but he can throw a good bodycheck.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 01:15 |
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nice mattimer posted:I never understood why hockey players don't take real fighting lessons. Sure, you can hammer on a guy with your meat claw, but how about taking a boxing course and learning how to feel him out, parry and Unfortunately since the pugilists are standing on razor blades on a very slippery surface, it changes the strategy a lot. You have to grapple or you get off balance and you're incredibly easy to topple, as in the video you posted. Or you can be on the delivering end and spin to the ice like Subban did in that one gif I'm sure someone will post. I'm sure fighting lessons do help, but hockey requires some alterations.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 03:21 |
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I could never get into hockey no matter how much I tried but I turned on game 3 of the Penguins-Flyers series and I've watched every NHL match afterwards. I'm obsessed lol. I have a pretty good grasp on the rules and I'm waiting to have watched enough to start to grasp the finer nuances and intracacies of the game, but every game I've seen to this point has been awesome. I'm excited to see how all these series play out and eventually get a team to root for regularly.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 03:44 |
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xzzy posted:Unfortunately since the pugilists are standing on razor blades on a very slippery surface, it changes the strategy a lot. You have to grapple or you get off balance and you're incredibly easy to topple, as in the video you posted. Rick Rypien took lessons in fighting. So have a few other pugilists. Not many, though.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 03:47 |
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grack posted:Rick Rypien took lessons in fighting. So have a few other pugilists. Not many, though.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 03:56 |
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blackshreds posted:I could never get into hockey no matter how much I tried but I turned on game 3 of the Penguins-Flyers series and I've watched every NHL match afterwards. I'm obsessed lol. This is awesome  Whereabouts do you live? Or if you don't have any geographical ties, what sort of teams do you like? I can offer recommendations (beyond the Penguins too!) ((e: so can others here too!))
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 04:00 |
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Root for the blackhawks. They will win another cup in the next few years. Also have the coolest player in the nhl to watch with Jonathan Toews.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 06:35 |
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Can you still offer a 10 year contract for a player?
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 07:18 |
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I've watched hockey for like four seasons now but not enough to have conversations with other people who like it. I pretty much sit by myself watching the game go by. So, what the heck is chirping? And why is it so connected to the Canucks? Because I tried googling the topic before coming here and all I got was a lot of news articles about how the Canucks bosses are trying to get the players in line.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 09:05 |
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its mostly just poo poo-talking during points of non-action. it really has little to no bearing on the game but people make a big deal out of it because since they are fully incapable of understanding the simplest of hockey strategy, they have to make a big deal out of something that they do understand or people will understand how little they really know. everybody understands swearing and namecalling, so it becomes a thing
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 09:43 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 03:05 |
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Yinzer posted:Can you still offer a 10 year contract for a player? Yes, if the dollars per year don't drop off too much at the end. This will undoubtedly be a big issue when they negotiate a new CBA this summer.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 12:39 |
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