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The Collector
Aug 8, 2011

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Rats raining down in the night during the Stanley Cup finals.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Reverend Sub-Zero posted:

Just ask the drooling shell that was Eric Lindros.

Scott Stevens was the perfect backend for a trapping team, a shutdown defenseman who dominates physically. Any forward who managed to pick his way through the trapping forward and backchecking forward usually saw his play end on Stevens' shoulder (which usually was targeting that forwards' head). He is almost completely responsible for cutting short Lindros' career (multiple concussions).

He just never learned to keep his head up....

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myron cope
Apr 21, 2009

This is going to end badly for the owners. Very badly.


I edited the second post in. Nobody gave me an updated list, so (or just tell me who to add/take away. I particularly didn't include draft picks)

thatguyclint
Apr 11, 2005
See, I didn't know that...ducks eat for free at Subway.

myron_cope posted:

I edited the second post in. Nobody gave me an updated list, so (or just tell me who to add/take away. I particularly didn't include draft picks)

Add Pekka Rinne (G) and maybe Mike Fisher(-Underwood) (C) to the Nashville Predators. That's about it for them.

Also, everyone loves the Predators

Fateo McMurray
Mar 22, 2003



For the Bruins I'd add Patrice Bergeron

T-Bone
Sep 14, 2004

It always depends on the weather. When the weather is good, the team plays better.

schmitty9800 posted:

Can anyone explain how New Jersey broke things in the early 00's, and what the league did to fix it?

They did this thing where they led the league in scoring and won Stanley Cups it was really terrible

Brodeurs Nanny
Nov 2, 2006

IF YOU THINK MY GAA IS BIG you oughtta see my ego, which cost the Devils a playoff and let me not shake hands with Sean Avery, greatest hockey player of the last ten years at least

T-Bone posted:

They did this thing where they led the league in scoring and won Stanley Cups it was really terrible

Thank you T-Bone... I feel like nobody really remembers that the 2000-2001 teams were just insanely good, they basically had the best offense, defense, and goaltending in the league over a two-year span, only rivaled by Colorado and Detroit.

It's really the 1995 Cup win that had everyone talking "trap/boring/gently caress the Devils." And really, it wasn't THE DEVILS more than it was Jacques Lemaire.

Green Submarine
Oct 21, 2000

There will come soft rains...

schmitty9800 posted:

Can anyone explain how New Jersey broke things in the early 00's, and what the league did to fix it?

No one has treated this thoroughly yet, so here goes.

First, "how New Jersey broke things in the early 00's"

The standard line you'll hear is that the Devils popularized the trap starting in the '90s. Their success led others to adopt it, slowing the game down, lowering scoring, and hurting viewership. This oversimplification has a number of flaws:

1. It wasn't really New Jersey's fault. The neutral zone trap,[1] like most strategic innovations in the second half of the twentieth century, was developed in Europe. It made its way to North America gradually, and while the Devils, under Jacques Lemaire, were early adopters, they were far from the only team to make extensive use of the trap. The Minnesota Wild are a notable example of another early adopter. The Wild were, however, substantially less successful than Devils and so have been the target of proportionally less ire. The trap was also, as others have observed above, only one component of the Devil's success. Everyone else was doing it too. Blaming the Devils for ruining hockey with the trap is like blaming the Yankees for ruining baseball with steroids.

2. Other factors were at play. The trap's growth in popularity corresponded with a goaltending renaissance. Careful systematization of goaltending technique was rarely so much as considered until the 1990s. The rise in the popularity of the butterfly style, codified so as to guide a goalie's save selection in a statistically favorable direction, contributed enormously to the decrease in scoring.[2] The turn of the decade was also the culmination of a long and gradual process in which the potency of interference rules was eroded. Officials had been enculturated to see a wide range of technically illegal obstruction as "part of the game." This compounded the slowing effect the trap had, so that the pace of the game became sluggish compared to earlier eras.

3. NHL viewership was never great. Through the 1970s and 1980s it enjoyed, and to some extent cultivated, a reputation as a brutal, dangerous, bloody sport, reducing its appeal to "family-oriented" demographics. On top of struggling to change its niche image, the NHL was competing against established teams in other major sports in expansion cities which had no pre-existing hockey markets. All of these factors conspired to suppress ratings, but issues with game pace from increased interference and trapping bore an excessive degree of the blame, in no small part because expansion was a sacred cow.


Second, "what the league did to fix it"

The leagues response following the lockout of 2004-2005 was a single-minded approach: increase scoring, and the ratings will follow. The more scoring = more better attitude motivated several rule and policy changes, some of them good, some of them downright idiotic. Here are some of them:

The Good

- "Eliminating the red line." You might have noticed if you've watched hockey recently that the red line has not, in fact, been eliminated. What that phrase means is that the league decided to allow two-line passes. Previously it had been illegal to make a pass from inside your defensive zone to a player on the opposite side of the center red line. Changing this rule reduced the effectiveness of the trap and made quick break-out plays easier.

- Calling the rulebook as written. The campaign to cut down on obstruction by instructing referees to call infractions that meets the criteria set down in the rulebook has been largely successful. Players, after a few years of pavlovian training, learned not to interfere so much. This, more than anything, has increased the pace of the game.

- No line changes after icing. It used to be that if you were pinned in your own end you could just whip the puck down to the other end, get an icing whistle, and grab some pine. Now, if you ice the puck, your team is not allowed to change giving the attacking team a chance to capitalize on tired defenders. This is widely viewed as a sensible reward for the type of offensive zone pressure that leads teams to ice the puck in the first place.


The Bad

- Delay of game: puck over glass. It is now a two minute penalty if a player in his own defensive zone shoots the puck directly over the glass. This is loving stupid. It rarely happened as a pressure relieving strategy anyway. It would make much more sense if this infraction followed the pattern of icing, where you simply don't get a change of lines.

- The trapezoid. The NHL added a new set of lines behind each net. The area outside those lines and behind the goal line is the goalie exclusion zone. It is a two minute penalty if the goaltender plays the puck in that area. This is also loving stupid. The rational was supposed to be that it would help the attacking team get possession of the puck, leading to more goals. It neglects entirely, however, than an active, puck-playing goaltender can be an offensive asset. Net effect on goal scoring? Zippo. Great example of useless, arbitrary tinkering that makes the game needlessly complicated. It also had the unintended consequence of leading to more high-speed collisions into the end boards, because when goalie's can't play the puck, then the defenders have to. If the defenders have to come a long way, they will often do so in a foot race with an opposing forward, frequently leading them to be pile-driven into the end boards.[3]

- The shootout. Seriously, gently caress the shootout. It was introduced to eliminate ties, which, I hear, are un-American. Supposedly "the fans love it because it's so exciting!" Bullshit. You know why it's exciting? Because it decides the outcome of the game. You could have a tiddlywinks match at center ice, and if it decided the outcome of the game the fans would find it exciting. It would also tell you the exact same amount as the shootout does about which team played better hockey that night.


[1] For the uninitiated, the trap is a defensive play, executed in the neutral zone, which is intended to disrupt the opponent's attempt to exit their own zone and enter yours. Typically, one player will lightly pressure the puck carrier has he approaches his own blue line, guiding him to one side of the ice or the other. While this is happening the remaning four players remain in the neutral zone cutting off passing lanes. If executed correctly, the trap will leave the puck carrier with only undesirable options, like chipping the puck up the boards or attempting a dangerous, low-percentage cross-ice pass. In loose talk, it is referred to as a defensive system, which is not strictly true. It is a play that all teams will use at one time or another, but defensive systems can be characterized by more or less extensive use of the technique. A "trapping team" is typically a team that uses it extensively, often to the exclusion of aggressive forechecking.

[2] Ironically—from the New-Jersey-ruined-everything perspective at least—Brodeur, who was central to the Devil's success from the mid-1990s to early 2000s, plays a hybrid, almost stand-up style that seems archaic compared to the modern butterfly.

[3] A number of serious injuries have resulted, leading this unintended consequence to become a Don Cherry hobbyhorse.

Green Submarine fucked around with this message at Aug 28, 2011 around 20:20

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

Jeff's watching...


myron_cope posted:

I edited the second post in. Nobody gave me an updated list, so (or just tell me who to add/take away. I particularly didn't include draft picks)

You could add RJ Umberger and/or Antoine Vermette for Columbus if you wanted. Umby deserves mention as he hasn't missed a game since he was picked up for a couple picks in 2008-09, has been a ~25 goal scorer consistently, and has become the de facto captain/leader of the team.

That and he pissed off the Blues in the halls of Nationwide during their pre-game soccer game last year.

revtoiletduck
Aug 21, 2006
smart newbie

myron_cope posted:

I edited the second post in. Nobody gave me an updated list, so (or just tell me who to add/take away. I particularly didn't include draft picks)

I would add Erik Karlsson to the Senators. He's kind of a big deal around here.

T-Bone
Sep 14, 2004

It always depends on the weather. When the weather is good, the team plays better.

i am not so sure posted:

It's really the 1995 Cup win that had everyone talking "trap/boring/gently caress the Devils." And really, it wasn't THE DEVILS more than it was Jacques Lemaire.

And that team and its predecessor (94 devils, who were second in GF), actually scored quite a bit, too - especially in the playoffs where they averaged 3.5 goals a game (which works out to 287 over the regular season aka 25 more than anyone scored last season).

The 2003 Devils were absolutely built on defense and didn't score for poo poo but the 94 and 95 teams had great offenses.


Basically, the trap, like any other system, is boring if you don't have top talent running it. If you do, it's still pretty exciting (see: Penguins, Pittsburgh or Canucks, Vancouver). The problem with it is that you can be successful utilizing it without top tier offensive talent and that can lead to some grinding games.

Also, the Devils have been on average, the least penalized team in the league since 1994 - so the obstruction claims are completely and utterly baseless.

T-Bone fucked around with this message at Aug 29, 2011 around 00:34

Brodeurs Nanny
Nov 2, 2006

IF YOU THINK MY GAA IS BIG you oughtta see my ego, which cost the Devils a playoff and let me not shake hands with Sean Avery, greatest hockey player of the last ten years at least

T-Bone posted:

And that team and its predecessor (94 devils, who were second in GF), actually scored quite a bit, too - especially in the playoffs where they averaged 3.5 goals a game (which works out to 287 over the regular season aka 25 more than anyone scored last season).

The 2003 Devils were absolutely built on defense and didn't score for poo poo but the 94 and 95 teams had great offenses.


Basically, the trap, like any other system, is boring if you don't have top talent running it. If you do, it's still pretty exciting (see: Penguins, Pittsburgh or Canucks, Vancouver). The problem with it is that you can be successful utilizing it without top tier offensive talent and that can lead to some grinding games.

Also, the Devils have been on average, the least penalized team in the league since 1994 - so the obstruction claims are completely and utterly baseless.

Yeah. The 1994 team was second to the Rangers in offense. I think people just saw how good the Devils were at it and scapegoated them because they were so successful. But look, if you're playing the trap with Brodeur, Stevens, Daneyko, Niedermayer, and some of the best defensive forwards and heavy hitters in the league, you're going to have a lot of success and frustrate fans of teams who have to play against you.

myron cope
Apr 21, 2009

This is going to end badly for the owners. Very badly.


Whether it's because of the Devils or not, I'm so glad that clutch-and-grab is dead. Highlights from that era are so jarring. I wasn't a huge hockey watcher back then, what actually drew a penalty? Tackling?

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


tofes posted:

The Stars are not lovable at all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD4BWHR_OSM

often entertaining

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZEDtPBOfyY

actual franchise legends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gptILlleHk4

nourished forever from the tears of sabres fans

Dallas has an okay team despite, not because of, its ownership. We are worthy of just about any/all underdog praise here recently. And a Sharks fan calling another team unlovable makes me laugh.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

Jimmy...I don't feel so well.

It's okay Sid, it's just the slumps.

One thing I would add about the trap - wasn't it used by those great Canadiens teams in the 70's? I wasn't alive then so I don't know but I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that those teams trapped too and that plus their absurd roster was a big part of why they did so well.



e: And the trap is far from gone today as well. Every single team in the NHL employs the trap at least part of the time. T-Bone is pretty much 100% right in that the only thing separating an exciting trapping team from a boring one is how offensively talented each team is.

Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at Aug 29, 2011 around 01:27

tofes
Mar 31, 2011



Ah yes Steve Ott, a lovable character!

Fateo McMurray
Mar 22, 2003



tofes posted:

Ah yes Steve Ott, a lovable character!

They don't call him Brave Steve for nothing!

sellouts
Apr 23, 2003



tofes posted:

Ah yes Steve Ott, a lovable character!

At least he didn't murder anyone.

mcvey
Aug 31, 2006

b 6 3 b 6 3


yet

tofes
Mar 31, 2011



sellouts posted:

At least he didn't murder anyone.

Neither did Heatley

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


tofes posted:

Neither did Heatley

At least he didn't manslaughter anyone. Still, I'd take Dallas signing Avery as a worse move. As much as I look down on you other Pacific folks, it takes a special kind of ineptitude to putt Hull in a GM position.

And that Ott video is hilarious.

The San Jose Sharks are the BMW M3 of hockey teams. Look real nice, goes real fast, driven by assholes and break down at the last minute.

Edit: New hockey fans: The rivalries in this sport are comparable to Club Football or the NFC East. You usually hate everyone in your division except for the one team that's doing so poorly you can't help but root for them. A great reason to be an NHL fan is to watch the playoff meltdowns, start following now to understand better which team is and isn't "real" when they beat your team.

DOOMocrat fucked around with this message at Aug 29, 2011 around 14:37

Loqieu
Feb 27, 2001



I watched some hockey DVDs during the hurricane over the weekend and caught the Islanders vs Leafs game from 2002 where Shawn Bates won the game on the penalty shot. One thins that was amazing was how much holding was being tolerated by the refs. The defensemen would just put a guy into the boards and hold him. Not even moderate holding either. It was more similar to a straight up bear hug, and sometimes they would put their stick around the guys leg too. There was still a lot of exciting offensive plays, but I definitely noticed the emphasis on clutch and grab rather than stick-handling and skating.

tofes
Mar 31, 2011



DOOMocrat posted:

At least he didn't manslaughter anyone. Still, I'd take Dallas signing Avery as a worse move. As much as I look down on you other Pacific folks, it takes a special kind of ineptitude to putt Hull in a GM position.

And that Ott video is hilarious.

The San Jose Sharks are the BMW M3 of hockey teams. Look real nice, goes real fast, driven by assholes and break down at the last minute.

Edit: New hockey fans: The rivalries in this sport are comparable to Club Football or the NFC East. You usually hate everyone in your division except for the one team that's doing so poorly you can't help but root for them. A great reason to be an NHL fan is to watch the playoff meltdowns, start following now to understand better which team is and isn't "real" when they beat your team.

They've won the president's trophy

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


We did that too, on the way to this



If you ain't the Ducks, take a seat over there with Vancouver.

sellouts
Apr 23, 2003



Signing a player who is an rear end in a top hat and detrimental to the team is worse than drinking too much and driving a sportscar into a tree and killing a teammate. Just want to make sure I have that right.

I like the M3 metaphor though, although I think the Capitals are worse than San Jose when it comes to that.

tofes
Mar 31, 2011



The Ducks and the Stars, truly the Pacific division is the most shameful

sellouts posted:

Signing a player who is an rear end in a top hat and detrimental to the team is worse than drinking too much and driving a sportscar into a tree and killing a teammate. Just want to make sure I have that right.

Yep, that's what I said isn't it?

tofes fucked around with this message at Aug 29, 2011 around 17:45

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


Hey if Daley didn't clock out a day early we'd have had all 5 teams in the playoffs!

Note to new hockey fans: The Pacific is the best division in hockey despite what the Northeast keeps saying. They jus jelus.

Vital Signs
Oct 17, 2007

bump-bump...bump-bump...bumppppppppp......


DOOMocrat posted:

We did that too, on the way to this



If you ain't the Ducks, take a seat over there with Vancouver.
God drat I was sad when Hull scored. I loving hated the Stars back then. I never really understood why people could even argue it wasn't a goal, as the "foot in the crease" argument is sort of invalid when you're the one shooting.

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

Eh no matter whether you think the NHL got the Brett Hull thing right or wrong, you have to admit how they handled it was truly awful.

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


ElwoodCuse posted:

Eh no matter whether you think the NHL got the Brett Hull thing right or wrong, you have to admit how they handled it was truly awful.

No joke. When the All-Star Game was in Dallas and Bettman "reassured" Hull it was a good goal it was the hardest I had groaned about hockey since Ray Ferarro went off on Loui Errikson for missing the empty net and calling him a bad player. Seriously Ferarro, where do YOU get the balls?

mcvey
Aug 31, 2006

b 6 3 b 6 3


sellouts posted:

I like the M3 metaphor though, although I think the Capitals are worse than San Jose when it comes to that.

The Capitals are a Ferrari driven by Dany Heatley.

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

Jeff's watching...


DOOMocrat posted:

No joke. When the All-Star Game was in Dallas and Bettman "reassured" Hull it was a good goal it was the hardest I had groaned about hockey since Ray Ferarro went off on Loui Errikson for missing the empty net and calling him a bad player. Seriously Ferarro, where do YOU get the balls?

Wasn't that Patrik Stefan that Ferarro reamed after missing the empty netter, or are we thinking of two separate EN gently caress ups by the Stars?

hallebarrysoetoro
Jun 14, 2003

The last of his kind. His home team was destroyed by Rene Bourque.


mcvey posted:

The Capitals are a Ferrari driven by Dany Heatley.

Hal "single handedly crushing Caps fans dreams since 2008" Gill must be the iron fence then

it was pretty refreshing to lose to a team that didn't have Hal Gill on it, maybe this time around we can win against a team that isn't the Rangers

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

J'aime le capitaine


CBJSprague24 posted:

Wasn't that Patrik Stefan that Ferarro reamed after missing the empty netter, or are we thinking of two separate EN gently caress ups by the Stars?

Yep it was Stefan, they played together in Atlanta I think. I am indeed thinking of two separate fuckups.

trilljester
Dec 7, 2004

"I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I'll have to see the video or something. Someone show me the video."


DOOMocrat posted:

Yep it was Stefan, they played together in Atlanta I think. I am indeed thinking of two separate fuckups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc7HztZS9R4

Turco

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


Why couldn't Turco be just a little bit better.

I want to like him, he seems like a swell guy.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

Ha ha! Pain is hilarious!


xzzy posted:

Why couldn't Turco be just a little bit better.

I want to like him, he seems like a swell guy.

I remember seeing him play when he was at Michigan and he was a beast. Granted, he had a stacked team in front of him but still.

E: Holy poo poo that championship was 13 years ago? That went fast

trilljester
Dec 7, 2004

"I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I'll have to see the video or something. Someone show me the video."


xzzy posted:

Why couldn't Turco be just a little bit better.

I want to like him, he seems like a swell guy.

He was (is) one of the best puckhandling goalies in the league. I think those 2 years of horrible, lovely defenses in Dallas broke him.

More Turco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDjH...feature=related

trilljester fucked around with this message at Aug 31, 2011 around 04:52

Perdido
Apr 29, 2009

CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER


Turco had the knock against him that he simply wasn't a playoff performer.

Then there was that performance he had against the Canucks where he lost despite posting shutouts in all of the games his team won and having one of the games go to like quadruple overtime.

Now, dude's just old. 36 is fairly old for a goalie.

Wilford Cutlery
Mar 19, 2005

Stick a fork in me, I need to check my blood sugar.


Perdido posted:

Turco had the knock against him that he simply wasn't a playoff performer.

Then there was that performance he had against the Canucks where he lost despite posting shutouts in all of the games his team won and having one of the games go to like quadruple overtime.

Now, dude's just old. 36 is fairly old for a goalie.

And yet Dwayne Roloson soldiers on, dude is unbelievable. I really wish the best for Marty, I like to think he'd make a great goalie coach/mentor someday.

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DJExile
Jun 27, 2007

Ha ha! Pain is hilarious!


Martin Biron is 34 now and still playing pretty solid. Roloson is just crazy though.


E: Oh, and Roloson's backup has the loving Tick on his mask, which completely owns.

DJExile fucked around with this message at Aug 31, 2011 around 19:35

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