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xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


Lovie Unsmith posted:

And yet Dwayne Roloson soldiers on, dude is unbelievable. I really wish the best for Marty, I like to think he'd make a great goalie coach/mentor someday.

He spent a day at NHL On the Fly after Chicago was eliminated in the playoffs, and he was really boring. Maybe he just wasn't used to being in a suit and on camera, but he had no personality and his comments sounded robotic.

I'd like to see him do color commentary myself, he seems like a really funny guy, he's just gotta get over his stage fright.

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Perdido
Apr 29, 2009

CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER


Lovie Unsmith posted:

And yet Dwayne Roloson soldiers on, dude is unbelievable. I really wish the best for Marty, I like to think he'd make a great goalie coach/mentor someday.

Yeah, but guys like Hasek (gently caress Roloson ) are the exception, not exactly the norm. Hell, look at Brodeur's rapid decline.

Roloson also never really played anywhere close to full seasons for pretty much his entire career. You have to go back to '95-'96 where he played 67 games in the AHL and then all the way up to '06-'07 with the Oilers where he played 68. You could maybe throw in his 00-01 and 02-03 seasons (52/50 games played in the AHL/NHL) but for the most part, he hasn't really had a heavy workload for a huge chunk of his career.

Compared to NHL regulars, who do have a heavy workload, his longevity isn't exactly surprising.

gigabitnokie
Dec 2, 2008


Perdido posted:

Compared to NHL regulars, who do have a heavy workload, his longevity isn't exactly surprising.

Look at Tim Thomas, too. Dude is 37 and wasn't a starter until 5 years ago. He'll be playing into his 40s for sure.

Wilford Cutlery
Mar 19, 2005

Stick a fork in me, I need to check my blood sugar.


xzzy posted:

He spent a day at NHL On the Fly after Chicago was eliminated in the playoffs, and he was really boring. Maybe he just wasn't used to being in a suit and on camera, but he had no personality and his comments sounded robotic.

I'd like to see him do color commentary myself, he seems like a really funny guy, he's just gotta get over his stage fright.

I had a hard enough time getting used to him with hair when he was on NHL Network.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


gigabitnokie posted:

Look at Tim Thomas, too. Dude is 37 and wasn't a starter until 5 years ago. He'll be playing into his 40s for sure.

Is there any evidence that being a "late starter" allows an athlete to play professionally until a later age? Or is the "getting old" part too much of a hurdle to overcome?

That is, with most sports, pro athletes seem to start their decline around age 35 and retire a couple years later. But these world class athletes have probably been playing professionally since they were 20, and probably spent 15 years prior to that developing into an athlete.

If a guy never touched a puck until he was 20 and somehow worked his way into professional circuits, is there any possibility he could play until he was 50?

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."

xzzy posted:

If a guy never touched a puck until he was 20 and somehow worked his way into professional circuits, is there any possibility he could play until he was 50?

To argue from anecdote: the increase in sports injuries and general brokenness I've experienced just getting into my late 20s as a totally non-serious athlete would suggest that it's not likely.

gigabitnokie
Dec 2, 2008


Thufir posted:

To argue from anecdote: the increase in sports injuries and general brokenness I've experienced just getting into my late 20s as a totally non-serious athlete would suggest that it's not likely.

To counter with my anecdote: I'm 23 and have a handful of really knowledgeable people pushing me to go to an SPHL free agent camp this fall with the idea being to actually make a team at my second tryout next fall.

Whether or not my body will fall apart at 28 regardless of the situation I can't say.

mcvey
Aug 31, 2006

They fight for their teammates without any thought about danger to themselves. One can carry a puck while flying.


gigabitnokie posted:

To counter with my anecdote: I'm 23 and have a handful of really knowledgeable people pushing me to go to an SPHL free agent camp this fall with the idea being to actually make a team at my second tryout next fall.

Whether or not my body will fall apart at 28 regardless of the situation I can't say.

Whaaat that's awesome, do it. I wonder who's the "best" hockey player here, didn't bewbies play in a decently high league or am I thinking of someone else.

gigabitnokie
Dec 2, 2008


mcvey posted:

Whaaat that's awesome, do it. I wonder who's the "best" hockey player here, didn't bewbies play in a decently high league or am I thinking of someone else.

I think he did. Titanium is an incredible goalie and has a lot of videos up in the goalie thread.

Perdido
Apr 29, 2009

CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER


xzzy posted:

Is there any evidence that being a "late starter" allows an athlete to play professionally until a later age? Or is the "getting old" part too much of a hurdle to overcome?

That is, with most sports, pro athletes seem to start their decline around age 35 and retire a couple years later. But these world class athletes have probably been playing professionally since they were 20, and probably spent 15 years prior to that developing into an athlete.

If a guy never touched a puck until he was 20 and somehow worked his way into professional circuits, is there any possibility he could play until he was 50?

Well, part of the 'getting old' thing is that the wear and tear of being a professional athlete leads to more injuries and the such. It's why 'broken down' is a term commonly thrown about when talking about older athletes.

Part of it is conditioning and training. Take Chris Chelios. He prolonged his career by being in such ridiculously good shape. Ditto Gary Roberts. If Mike Cammelari keeps up with his program he'll probably last into his 40s as well.

A lot of players don't take optimal care of themselves (keeping in mind that the 'lazy' methods of taking care of themselves is still above and beyond what 90% of us regular folk do) and suffer as a result.

Another part of it is that biologically, we start wearing down around our mid 20s. We're apparently wired to do so, because that's what our natural life expectancy was ages ago. Your metabolism starts slowing down, your hair starts thinning, all that fun poo poo tends to happen around that point. So, your body is starting very, very early stages of regression and, in the case of the 20 year old newbie hockey player, has missed out on the prime years of development, both physically and mentally. I'd imagine that it'd be incredibly hard for a 20 year old person who had never played hockey to break into professional sports and it'd be virtually impossible to parlay it into a 30 year career like you're positing.

Hell, Ed Jovanovski was considered a 'late bloomer' when he started playing at age 11.

Perdido fucked around with this message at Aug 31, 2011 around 21:34

Bradf0rd
Jun 16, 2008

"The shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world, is to be in reality what we would appear to be; and if we observe, we shall find, that all human virtues increase and strengthen themselves by the practice of BORK BORK BORK." - Socrates


mcvey posted:

Whaaat that's awesome, do it. I wonder who's the "best" hockey player here, didn't bewbies play in a decently high league or am I thinking of someone else.

bewbies played a level of junior and I'll second the titanium videos. We need a shootout with those two.

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."

Didn't [user] Tim Thomas play in the NCAA or something? Or is that the same person as Titanium?

Hand Knit
Oct 24, 2005

Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..


He 'played' in the NCAA in the sense that he was a third string goalie. He did play roller, though.

Fear my memory.

sellouts
Apr 23, 2003



I'm convinced that bewbies is going to skate laps around me at the tournament, it's going to be kind of funny but mostly really depressing

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

Golly mister, did you say we're in the playoffs?


trilljester posted:

He was (is) one of the best puckhandling goalies in the league. I think those 2 years of horrible, lovely defenses in Dallas broke him.

More Turco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDjH...feature=related

Things haven't been the same since Zubov left and Lehtinen got hurt, they've been such an engine for the team they didn't know how to go without it, Marty broke for sure, he can apply pressure better than almost everyone else if he has the room to do it, and over the past few years his judgement calls about having time & space have been iffy at best.

He got to be on the cover of NHL 2K6, though!

trilljester
Dec 7, 2004

"I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I'll have to see the video or something. Someone show me the video."


DOOMocrat posted:

Things haven't been the same since Zubov left and Lehtinen got hurt, they've been such an engine for the team they didn't know how to go without it, Marty broke for sure, he can apply pressure better than almost everyone else if he has the room to do it, and over the past few years his judgement calls about having time & space have been iffy at best.

He got to be on the cover of NHL 2K6, though!

Coming from an old man, I can tell you that judgement about time and space is the first thing to go.

DOOMocrat
Oct 2, 2003

Golly mister, did you say we're in the playoffs?


I'm actually kind of happy Mike Smith is back in the Pacific.

Because he can't stop easy wrist shots around his shoulders to save his life and that's all we can really shoot.

Vital Signs
Oct 17, 2007

bump-bump...bump-bump...bumppppppppp......


One of my buddies I played AA with growing up actually got drafted in the OHL, and a friend of mine's sibling is a current goalie for Michigan State. As for me, I ruined my chances at high level with busted shoulder and knee my Junior and Senior year. Now I just play as a shell of myself in beer league, and I like it. Hockey is more fun when you're not stressed about making a team and keeping ice time.

Wilford Cutlery
Mar 19, 2005

Stick a fork in me, I need to check my blood sugar.


So I mentioned in the N/V thread that my cousin has signed with an ECHL team that is affiliated with an NHL team. How much of a foot in the door is this for him, in terms of making it up to the big league?

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


A quick google found this:

http://www.echl.com/record-79-echl-...rosters-p166386

So I suppose it could be considered a foot in the door.

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."

Lovie Unsmith posted:

So I mentioned in the N/V thread that my cousin has signed with an ECHL team that is affiliated with an NHL team. How much of a foot in the door is this for him, in terms of making it up to the big league?

Not very much of a foot at all. There have been 467 ECHL players to play in the NHL but it's a pretty safe bet that almost all of them were drafted into the NHL first or played during the lockout or something. I'm sure there are a few here or there that worked all the way up as undrafted guys but it's definitely a long shot.

SubCrid TC
Feb 10, 2004

Believe.

Thufir posted:

Not very much of a foot at all. There have been 467 ECHL players to play in the NHL but it's a pretty safe bet that almost all of them were drafted into the NHL first or played during the lockout or something. I'm sure there are a few here or there that worked all the way up as undrafted guys but it's definitely a long shot.

Of the players that have played in the NHL, most have only played a couple of games and most were drafted.

Of those that actually had a career, most are goalies. Because you pretty much only have two spots on a team, and lots of AHL teams like having one veteran AHL guy around and goalies can have a longer development time. You have a lot of young legitimate goalie prospects who actually play in the ECHL.

Of the recognizable skaters, quite a few are goons.

Alex Burrows is the only guy I can think of that went undrafted and actually started with an ECHL contract.

Some guys have come undrafted out of junior or the NCAA and been signed to an NHL or AHL contract and played a couple of games in the ECHL under those contracts before ending up in the NHL, but they were loans to the ECHL.

trilljester
Dec 7, 2004

"I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I'll have to see the video or something. Someone show me the video."


As far as too much man penalties:

The refs typically seem to vary on how much leeway they give teams in terms of line changes. I know playing beer league, I've been called for too much man because I came out on the ice "too early", basically the guy I was changing with was about 20-25 feet from our bench and I hopped out there. The puck came nowhere near me, but the ref said I came out too early.

So, the last Sharks game I went to, I watched when guys come out onto the ice and it seems like they're out there way before the guy coming off is near the bench. This is especially true with defensemen, since they're mostly behind the play. So is there an official ruling on this or is it like travelling in basketball?

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


trilljester posted:

So, the last Sharks game I went to, I watched when guys come out onto the ice and it seems like they're out there way before the guy coming off is near the bench. This is especially true with defensemen, since they're mostly behind the play. So is there an official ruling on this or is it like travelling in basketball?

There's supposedly a five foot wide area near the benches where it's "okay" to have too many men, the NHL experimented marking the area off with blue paint a couple years ago but it never made it live.

Other than that, yeah, travelling in basketball. The only hard rule seems to be if the puck hits a player as they leave the ice, it'll get called every single time. You'll sometimes see teams shoot the puck at the opponent bench during changes to force a penalty.

Topoisomerase
Apr 12, 2007

CULTURE OF VICIOUSNESS


xzzy posted:

Other than that, yeah, travelling in basketball. The only hard rule seems to be if the puck hits a player as they leave the ice, it'll get called every single time. You'll sometimes see teams shoot the puck at the opponent bench during changes to force a penalty.

I'm not sure about the NHL rule, but if the puck hits a player that is very close to and obviously in the act of going to the bench and said player does not attempt to play it, under USA Hockey rules that should not be called Too Many Men.

However if a player that just stepped on the ice plays the puck before the other guy is totally off the ice, that is definitely a penalty.

I played NCAA D1 women's too!

edit: Found the relevant NHL rule, it is the same.

quote:

If in the course of a substitution either the player(s) entering the play or the player(s) retiring is struck by the puck accidentally, the play will not be stopped and no penalty will be called.

Topoisomerase fucked around with this message at Sep 23, 2011 around 04:53

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


That's odd, because I swear I've seen a whistle blown for a puck bouncing off someone waiting at the bench door in NHL games.

Unless maybe it's something refs do to make up for blown calls earlier in the game?

myron cope
Apr 21, 2009

This is going to end badly for the owners. Very badly.


Do they call a penalty or just blow it dead? I can see them stopping play for it. Though I can't remember a time when a puck has hit someone (or even come close to them) changing and have it not be a penalty. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I don't remember it happening

Fateo McMurray
Mar 22, 2003



xzzy posted:

That's odd, because I swear I've seen a whistle blown for a puck bouncing off someone waiting at the bench door in NHL games.

I've seen a penalty called for that too.

But NHL games are different from USA Hockey games.

mcvey
Aug 31, 2006

They fight for their teammates without any thought about danger to themselves. One can carry a puck while flying.


I remember the Caps getting called for that quite a bit last season.

SubCrid TC
Feb 10, 2004

Believe.

I don't remember the last time I saw someone getting called for having the puck bounce off of them at the bench. It's a fairly clear rule. Are you guys sure the play in question didn't involve the guy somehow getting involved in the play rather than just having the puck bounce off of him?

Also, every god damned time it happens the play by play guy will get all indignant and start talking about how the team 'got away with one' or 'the refs missed an obvious call'. Then I get all annoyed and complain about the play by play guy in the GDT for five minutes.

xzzy
Mar 5, 2009

Tonight's starting lineup is
brought to you by Satan.


I want to say it happened to the Sharks against the Canucks in the playoffs, but am probably remembering incorrectly. I certainly don't remember any cases clearly enough to say if the offending player was playing the puck or just happened to get hit by it.

But this year I'll pay closer attention.

Fateo McMurray
Mar 22, 2003



It's called against the Bruins enough that I remember it. The way I remember it is a guy who's trying to change has the puck fired into his skates and bounce off while the guy who's replaced him is already on the ice.

ElwoodCuse
Jan 11, 2004

we're puttin' the band back together

I saw Alex Auld get called for playing the puck across the red line once because it was the second period and he was going to the bench for a delayed penalty and the puck hit him in front of the bench. Play was blown dead and matching minors were assessed.

Topoisomerase
Apr 12, 2007

CULTURE OF VICIOUSNESS


FateoMcSkippy posted:

I've seen a penalty called for that too.

But NHL games are different from USA Hockey games.

The rule I quoted was from the NHL rules site. I don't actually watch that many NHL games anymore (because I'm on the west coast and my favorite team is an east coast team and their games are usually over by the time I get home from campus) but I never remember it being called unless whichever dude was attempting to play the puck.

I'm a USA Hockey referee though and have played for 25ish years.

myron cope
Apr 21, 2009

This is going to end badly for the owners. Very badly.


Which teams own their AHL affiliates? I know the Penguins do. Are there any teams that also own their ECHL affiliate? Do they all have an ECHL affiliate?

Also how much control over affiliated teams do NHL teams have if they don't own them? I mean, the Penguins decide who runs the Baby Pens/who's on the team/how the team operates, etc. So do other teams just get to send their players to the AHL and hope for the best? I remember reading how the Crunch were upset that Nikita Filatov was called up by the Blue Jackets to not even play when they (the Crunch) were in a playoff fight (or in the playoffs?) and now I see that the Crunch aren't even affiliated with Columbus anymore.

Aniki
Mar 21, 2001

Wouldn't fit...

myron_cope posted:

Which teams own their AHL affiliates? I know the Penguins do. Are there any teams that also own their ECHL affiliate? Do they all have an ECHL affiliate?

Also how much control over affiliated teams do NHL teams have if they don't own them? I mean, the Penguins decide who runs the Baby Pens/who's on the team/how the team operates, etc. So do other teams just get to send their players to the AHL and hope for the best? I remember reading how the Crunch were upset that Nikita Filatov was called up by the Blue Jackets to not even play when they (the Crunch) were in a playoff fight (or in the playoffs?) and now I see that the Crunch aren't even affiliated with Columbus anymore.

The Wild own the Houston Aeros (AHL), but they don't own their ECHL affiliate, the Bakersfield Condors. The Wild even hired their new Coach, Mike Yeo, directly from Houston. Whether that is good or bad can be debated, but it does seem like they are trying to do more direct work with Houston on player development now, where before top prospects were just developed at the NHL level, which creates the James Sheppards of the world.

Schremp Howard
Jul 18, 2010

What attitude problem?

myron_cope posted:

Which teams own their AHL affiliates? I know the Penguins do. Are there any teams that also own their ECHL affiliate? Do they all have an ECHL affiliate?

Also how much control over affiliated teams do NHL teams have if they don't own them? I mean, the Penguins decide who runs the Baby Pens/who's on the team/how the team operates, etc. So do other teams just get to send their players to the AHL and hope for the best? I remember reading how the Crunch were upset that Nikita Filatov was called up by the Blue Jackets to not even play when they (the Crunch) were in a playoff fight (or in the playoffs?) and now I see that the Crunch aren't even affiliated with Columbus anymore.

I remember Edmonton not being thrilled with Pittsburgh when they shared the AHL Pens one year because they felt their prospects weren't being given key roles in the playoffs (mostly the refusal to play Jeff Deslauriers over Nolan Schaefer in the playoffs), so those situations arise. AHL teams that are independently owned (like Hershey and Chicago) could be tricky as well because they have no real desire to develop prospects for the parent club and are more likely to sign the Jason Krogs and Alexandre Girouxs of the world in an effort to be a team heavy on veteran talent. It works, as Hershey won back-to-back titles a few years ago, but there are few players of NHL consequence on those teams.

Fans of those teams are usually the ones who bitch and moan about so and so being called up. Very few Hershey fans care about the Capitals.

Schremp Howard fucked around with this message at Sep 27, 2011 around 16:00

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

I'm a little ray of sunshine.


The Rangers own their AHL team, but let a businessman in Hartford run the business/marketing side, which is how they were renamed "The Connecticut Whale" and it's all really loving stupid and someone should punch Howard Baldwin in the face

They don't own their ECHL team though, which is now apparently the Greenville Road Warriors

Thufir
May 19, 2004

"The fucking Mayans were right."

I'm pretty sure Nashville doesn't own the Milwaukee Admirals but they definitely get to call the shots.

I seem to remember reading something about the Chicago Wolves being a particularly independent AHL team and thus being a lovely affiliate because they bring in NHL vets on AHL contracts and prospects don't necessarily get the most playing time.

e: sorta beaten about the wolves.

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Wilford Cutlery
Mar 19, 2005

Stick a fork in me, I need to check my blood sugar.


Thufir posted:

I'm pretty sure Nashville doesn't own the Milwaukee Admirals but they definitely get to call the shots.

I seem to remember reading something about the Chicago Wolves being a particularly independent AHL team and thus being a lovely affiliate because they bring in NHL vets on AHL contracts and prospects don't necessarily get the most playing time.

e: sorta beaten about the wolves.

From Wikipedia:

The Wolves were the AHL affiliate of the Atlanta Thrashers from 2001 to 2011. The Thrashers relocated to Winnipeg in June 2011 and added the St. John's IceCaps (formerly the Manitoba Moose) as their new AHL affiliate, leaving the Wolves and the NHL's Vancouver Canucks to find new affiliates. On June 27, 2011, the Wolves and Canucks agreed to two–year affiliation agreement.

Does that mean we'll get to see Owen Nolan et al in Chicago soon?

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