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Yeah, BotNS is one of the few genre works that can be classed as "literature". Jesus, I've lost count of the times I've read it and it still blows my mind - the level of craft put into the story and the layers upon layers. Incidentally, I just read up on something on Wikipedia and stumbled on an article about the Cumaean seer. The Lake of Birds in BotNS as described by Hildegrin is identical to the real lake in Italy near the Cumaean's grotto - a volcanic crater filled with water called Lake Avernus. I was wondering where Wolfe had come up with the name "avern" for the flowers growing by the Lake of Birds because I read that he doesn't use neologisms - another reason I dig his stuff is the constant use of archaic words like "destrier" and "jacal" since the story is technically written in a future language that can't be fully interpreted and the timeframe BotNS takes place in is a dying age reverting to primalism.
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Sep 5, 2011 17:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is one of the better criticisms of Wolfe ITT. I'll give you that - BotNS certainly isn't a particularly tightly-plotted book in comparison to the other examples you mentioned. I've read a ton of authors who are fantastic at pacing (GRRM for all his faults paced stuff out pretty damned well in the first 3 books) and Wolfe certainly falls short in that area. I guess I just can't see that being a huge strike against him since BotNS isn't really about the plot. Erikson, et al are writing for a completely different audience whereas Wolfe is pretty much the thinking man's sci-fi/fantasy writer. I'm not bagging on Erikson - he's good at what he does but he's not working in the same mode as Wolfe. Nothing wrong with that. Also - BotNS does have the issue of being told from Severian's perspective after he becomes Autarch, so there's no real narrative tension to be got from pacing it out like Erikson would. It's more of a "Here's point A and here's point B - here's how we got from here to there". Severian clearly isn't telling the story to entertain anyone but rather to chronicle that "It was in this fashion that I began the long journey by which I have backed into the throne". I've read the books many, many times and there's clearly not an intention on Wolfe's part for everything to just fall into place for the reader by the end like Erikson would have it. So much of the story is dependent on the reader being observant or well-read enough to twig to the clues Wolfe throws at you (like the hints about what continent the story takes place on or the Borges-like library in the Citadel, for instance), so in that sense I can see it being frustrating for a lot of people. I wouldn't say it has a tight plot, but I wouldn't say that the book is filled with stretches that are completely devoid of meaning either - it just takes a lot more work for the reader to untangle it. There are fair criticisms to be leveled at BotNS to be sure, but I'll defend it as a fantastic piece of work, regardless. Admittedly, I'm not much of a Wolfe fan aside from BotNS. None of his other stuff (Latro, Wizard Knight, etc.) that I've read really grabs me, though the Latro trilogy is another interesting use of the unreliable narrator. BotNS isn't the only book where he does have a tendency to fall a bit short in the plotting department. Edit: I just got to thinking about it. For the sake of discussion, what are some other books that are considered "literary" classics that have good pacing? I'm trying to think of stuff like Moby Dick and Blood Meridian and falling short there, too - they're both fantastic books but they're not really written in a fast-paced style and of course Blood Meridian has the same "wandering around forever" feel that BotNS does. McCarthy tends to not really be much of a plotter either for that matter. Suttree is a fantastic book prose and character-wise as well as being surprisingly funny for McCarthy but I grant it doesn't really have much of a plot beyond "Suttree drinks. Suttree shakes his head at Harrogate's latest crazy scheme. Suttree meets random Knoxville characters." No Country For Old Men is about as close as he ever really gets to writing a fast-paced thriller. Encryptic fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 15:04
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Yeah, I read Fifth Head of Cerberus quite some time ago and recall really enjoying it. I believe there's some speculation out there as to whether it's connected to BotNS as well, though I can't recall specifics. But yeah, having read a little bit of Joyce, I can see where you're getting at there. I'd say BotNS is excellent at creating that (intentionally on Wolfe's part) unfocused narrative where you kind of have to sift the meaning from the chaff because Severian frequently cuts off before something happens, then it gets returned to later in the story, for instance - like the part where he's sent to kill Cyriaca or Wolfe outright alludes to stuff like who actually saved his life at the beginning of the story (the old guy who asks "Not a woman?" when asking who Malrubius is). I enjoy that because it gives you a clue without making it a big dramatic reveal. And of course a lot of the book is just Severian encountering one random situation after another (I grant there's something of a complaint there, but I feel like there's a point to it all - it's something of a journey of self-discovery for him because he has to lose the Claw and Terminus Est along the way and come to realize there's some grand scheme that's placed him on the path to the throne and possibly to bring the New Sun. Severian is clearly written as an intelligent (if insane) guy who has probably a hundred other guys riding around in his mind and he is writing the story from that perspective, so it's interesting to wonder if perhaps his perception of past events is colored by seeing it with the knowledge of a hundred past Autarchs - which he didn't have at the time the events took place. His struggle with the assimilation of Thecla's memories certainly gives that credence. Another thing I find interesting is how clinical he seems even when he's describing how joyful or happy or sad he was about something - as if he's unable to think in human terms. I wonder if that was how he always was due to being a torturer from childhood or if he's somehow...not human anymore due to the Autarch's memories in his head and being prepared to try to bring the New Sun. Encryptic fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 16:59
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Xenix posted:South America, with Nessus maybe being Buenos Aires, IIRC. The Ascians are "people with no shadow" because they live to the north, near the equator, in Central America. It's definitely South America. I read a bit of discussion elsewhere that confirms it and you pick up a lot of hints from the text like "the rotting jungles at the waist of the world" (the equator) and mate (a very common drink in South America) is mentioned multiple times, including as a cheap drink served to the prisoners in the oubliette. The leader of the village they're in the beginning in "Claw" is called an "alcalde" - an old Spanish term for a magistrate. Also Apu-Punchau (the guy they're trying to resurrect in the stone city at the end of "Claw") is an Inca sun god. Abalieno posted:From Lexicon Urthus: I think we're supposed to get an idea of just how old that story is in the book's timeline - Jonas apparently remembers it from when he last visited Urth (which was an incredibly long time ago). He mentions a couple of details from the original myth that were changed in Severian's version. I'd also argue that it ties into the mythos of Erebus and Abaia being the opponents of the Conciliator/The New Sun. The men in the story are assisted by the daughter of Night and of the ogre they've come to slay. The ogre himself is apparently some great beast who lives underwater (much like Erebus in Urth's mythos). In Greek mythology, Erebus is supposed to be a god who personifies darkness and fathered several children upon Nyx - the goddess of Night. Encryptic fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Dec 4, 2011 |
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Dec 4, 2011 15:38
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Abalieno posted:Viriconium? It's almost the same thing... Yeah, Viriconium is about the closest thing to BotNS out there. Similar "dying Earth" setting to start with but it goes off in a very unique direction.
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Dec 6, 2011 14:20
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