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patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Back to Work was my gateway into the 5by5 world, just because I've always been a huge fan of Merlin's ever since he used to be on the TWiT shows regularly. I can see how he's divisive, though. I feel like BtW has gotten more unfocused since they attacked a lot of the basic topics at the beginning (I discovered it late and ended up listening to 20+ episodes of backlog), but I still enjoy listening to it and of the many podcasts I listen to, it's the one I anticipate most and the only one I give my full attention. I enjoyed the episodes when Merlin was solo host but I agree they demonstrated how much Dan holds things together, and I would probably have gotten sick of them if they had continued for much longer.

I'm giving his show with Faith a try, and Andy Ihnatko's new show as well. I don't regularly listen to the Talk Show but I'll download an episode here or there if it looks interesting (John and Merlin, John and Dan talking about Steve Jobs retiring, etc.)

Plus, I love the art style for the show logos. Can't put my finger on why.

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patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Anyone listen to the last two Hypercriticals about the Jobs biography? They were super nitpicky (not that I'd expect less from the guy who writes zillion-word OS X reviews), and I can't deny I enjoyed reading the Isaacson bio, but by the end Siracusa had me pretty persuaded that the whole thing represents a missed opportunity.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Diabolik900 posted:

I think Hypercritical is becoming my favorite show on the network.

It hasn't quite reached that point yet, but there's definitely a 5by5 creep in my podcast listening. I started off with just Back to Work, then dipped in to the Ihnatko Almanac (easy enough of a gateway since I'm a longtime MBW listener), Geek Friday, the Talk Show and now Hypercritical. The one constant in all of these is Dan as a co-host... I'm really apprehensive about trying any of the shows he isn't on, even though I'd say I trust his taste pretty thoroughly at this point. Anyone a regular listener to the shows that Dan doesn't co-host and have a recommendation or two to make?

At this rate I'll be a paleo-eating software developer by January.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
This week's super-sized Hypercritical was really good. I have to admit, I was expecting it to be an annoying show to listen to from the description, but I like it more and more each week. His analysis of why Gruber is divisive was really cogent and fair, and managed to articulate something I sort of felt but hadn't been able to figure out for a long time. The whole "partisan" discussion was really interesting in general.

Is Build and Analyze worth listening to if you don't have a software development background? I listen to pretty much all the other 'core' shows, but I've never listened to B&A.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Nevett posted:

I listen to every Build & Analyse, Hypercritical and Talk Show. And I think I like them in that order (B&A most)

Any recommendations for a fourth show to pick up? It doesn't have to be 5by5, but I'm not sure I can imagine listening to a show without Dan in. The odd episodes where someone else co-hosts are really jarring.

Back to Work is the other flagship show aside from those three, but your enjoyment of it will stem entirely from where you fall on your opinion of Merlin. I think he's great, but I know his style is not to everyone's taste. I don't listen to B&A so I can't really say which of the other shows is most like that.

The only other shows I know of that Dan is on besides B2W are Critical Path (which I haven't listened to and can't vouch for) and Ihnatko Almanac, which I enjoy but it's kind of random compared to the reasonably predictable focus of the other shows. Andy also has an obsession with trying to get the show shorter and shorter, while my ideal 5by5 shows are the 90 minute+ monstrosities along with 20-30 min of After Dark. But that's just me.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
For those who listened to this week's B2W/AD, this is brilliant.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Song For The Deaf posted:

Quick question: They occasionally allude to using an older version of Skype, since the current version of Skype for Mac is utter poison. Can anyone remember which version 5by5 uses? I'm at the end of my rope here.

They all use 2.8, I'm pretty sure.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Even if there's no bad blood, it is weird to have TTS leaving, because it has such a long history as a production involving Dan and in some ways it was the 'flagship' show of the network. It had a different feel from all the other shows, probably owing to the lack of focus/structure. Looking forward to Big Week, though.

And I still want Dan and Merlin to do the morning zoo.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
One thing that people have pointed out is that this probably took Dan by surprise since he was just finalizing the TTS t-shirts for WWDC just a couple weeks ago, so this has to have been a really recent development. Mule Radio says that John approached them and that there was no poaching or bad blood between them and 5by5 as such, but it still seems like a dick move on John's part. I suppose it's possible that Dan had been planning to stop co-hosting TTS anyway per his comments about wanting to co-host fewer shows, but it certainly looks otherwise.

Either way, the total lack of comment from either of them is only fanning the speculation fire. Curious to see what info, if any, emerges in the next week or so. I'm not even going to bother listening now... I'll probably slot in another 5by5 show instead, maybe Amplified or Build & Analyze.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

I thought this was note-perfect. He gave just enough information to show some respect to the audience without engaging in wholesale dirty-laundry airing. Makes me like him even more.

Contrast that with Gruber's passive-aggressive posts and Mike Monteiro's mocking twitter feed all weekend.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

AnnoyBot posted:

Did you start at the beginning? It's like each episode is 50% better than the last. Ep 29 is just incredible, probably one of my all time favorite podcasts.

Yeah, I've enjoyed it from the beginning (including the "pilot" episode on Back to Work) but it's really hit a great stride over the last stretch. It's funny, I feel a bit like Merlin plays the role for John on RotL that Dan plays for him on B2W in terms of guiding the conversation but otherwise getting out of his way and letting him do his thing.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
I have to say that I'm getting really sick of the weeks of App.net coverage, and if there was an easy way to skip it, I would. It's hard because it's often interspersed with other show topics I'm actually interested in. And it's not that it isn't intelligent commentary, because it is, but it is the first major topic in my year+ of listening to 5by5 that I just don't have any interest in... I'm not a Twitter person, so all this emotional investment in it on the hosts' parts is hard to relate to, and it feels like a continuous rehash of the same points. Also, app.net is a terrible name and I don't think they should let any opportunity to comment on that go past. I think that's a big part of why it grates on me--every time I hear the name I cringe.

Siracusa is amazing and I'd listen to him talk about anything. (Even app.net.) I agree that his show is easily misperceived because of the name and the framing... it's kind of unfair to call it "complaining," because it's more than that. It's really insightful critique that often makes me think about an issue in a different way.

I am also loving the latest run of B2W on the grit topic and hope they continue to revisit it.B2W is the only 5by5 show I listen to now where Dan feels like a true co-host rather than a moderator and guide, and the best episodes are the ones where he and Merlin are both fully on, which applies to the past two, for sure.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Other than deviations like the bathroom episode, I think almost all of the B2W episodes follow the same formula: 20-30 minutes of nonsense and in-jokey stuff followed by 60-90 minutes of (relatively) serious discussion of the week's topic. Some are more focused than others, but I don't really feel like it's degraded much over time.

I do agree that it's probably hard to get into it if you aren't either (a) familiar with Merlin (I've been listening to him since he was on MacBreak in 2006) or (b) familiar with the show from episode 1. His style isn't for everyone, admittedly, and you're going to slam face-first into it with that first 20-30 minutes, but I think there's a lot of good stuff in there.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Song For The Deaf posted:

Quit! Is an amazing episode because of how incredibly inscrutable it is. Also, practical sleep advice.

I thought Quit! was great, and I'm looking forward to the actual show of the same name. Also, the number of people who fell for the last episode thing, while predictable, is still pretty funny.

Did anyone catch the impromptu episode this afternoon? I listened to it a little bit live at work, but wasn't able to catch too much. What I did hear was sort of like the Apple News Show thing they were riffing on.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Diabolik900 posted:

Faith had the job Haddie has now, and then she left. No idea why though.

Back when the Gruber thing was going down, someone posted this comment on Hacker News, which in turn quotes a (now-deleted) comment on Quora; I think it was originally on this question. That's about the only attempt at an explanation I've ever seen. It's hard not to believe that something negative went down there, though, since, other than Geek Friday (which basically exists in its own universe), it's like she never existed. Dan responding to a comment about Geek Friday on Hypercritical a few weeks ago was the first time I'd heard him even sort of acknowledge her since she disappeared from the producer role, and even there she wasn't mentioned by name.

In the same vein... it's funny, but I wince a little bit every time a host brings Gruber up. Usually Marco. Dan is professional about it, and Gruber's commentary is certainly relevant to whatever they're doing, but that whole thing was just so weird and uncomfortable and there's clearly a lot about it that we'll never really know.

I enjoy The Frequency well enough but I don't subscribe to it. I just listen live on days where I have time at work. Since it's a daily show and doesn't go in-depth on anything, it doesn't seem like the sort of show to save for later.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Yeah, to be clear, what I was referring to in terms of "a lot we'll never really know" was exactly what he meant by "business disagreement," though I'm sure that whatever it was boils down to Gruber wanting more than he was getting. I saw a comment somewhere suggesting that Monteiro offered him an ownership stake in Mule Radio, but who knows. Over and done with, either way.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Song For The Deaf posted:

Do we know any details?

Sounds like a pretty straightforward "this isn't living up to my expectations anymore, time to try other stuff" amicable ending, rather than what happened with TTS.

This week's Hypercritical was awesome, though.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
I would settle for even a monthly show. Pretty depressing news.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Roderick on the Line seems to me like the sort of thing that could go on forever... but I thought the same thing about Hypercritical, too.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
The Crossover was great. That was an interesting and pretty thorough discussion, especially considering that they came in with no preconceived topic. I don't know if he talked about it on earlier episodes of B&A, but I enjoyed listening to Marco talk about his days at Tumblr since he usually doesn't, at least these days.

I'm excited that Quit! also starts on Friday. Curious to hear how a call-in show goes...

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

pokeyman posted:

*nailed it*

I don't care about cars either but I'm happy listening to Siracusa complain about anything.

Same. I won't be listening to Neutral because I drive as little as possible and my dream world is one where I never have to drive again, but I like to see new things happening with him and Marco. He was expectedly great on the Crossover, sort of like a mini-Hypercritical episode (I think Jason Snell basically said as such, something like "this is what that show would have been like if you never prepared for it" or something along those lines.)

Also, I love Quit! more every week, especially now that they seem to have more of a grip on caller pacing and figuring out the general flow of the show. I think it's the only 5by5 show I've listened to where Dan is there as host rather than as co-host and facilitator, and the passion he brings to it is different from anything else I've heard him on. I think he's also done a good job of believably expanding it past the original premise and exploring ways, in general, of being happy with your work.

And Marco, if you're still reading this: please make a podcast app. I'd pay for it. I use Instacast right now and it's better than Apple's app but there are things about it that drive me nuts (particularly random 30-sec skips backward when resuming a podcast), and from the sound of it Downcast and other competitors have their own problems...

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
Since ATP is so off-the-cuff I think it's actually better that it stay solo, at least for now. Going with a network has benefits, and I like that all the 5by5 shows (at least the ones I listen to) have a fairly consistent form and feel to them, but they are pretty 'produced' (even the ones that sit closer to the goofy side in terms of tone, like the Frequency), on purpose. It makes sense, too, since Dan's interests are in doing a modern form of traditional talk radio, so you'd expect more structure. Even the shows that aren't hosted by Dan owe something to his editorial style. The TWiT shows are the same way--I haven't listened to them consistently in a long time, but they have their own feel to them which I'm sure has a lot to do with Leo's preferences and style.

It seems like the natural form for ATP (all four of which I listened to today, good stuff, I really liked the 90s gaming discussion, brought a lot of memories back) is to be more free-flowing than that. It sounds more like an After Dark, which makes sense since it essentially started as a Neutral "after dark." We have Siracusa rants back, Quit! is still amazing, and as far as I'm concerned all is right with the world. People on Twitter trying to inject drama into this are extremely tiresome.

I really want to know why Siracusa hates Python so much, though. I know why Dan does, but Siracusa's comments in ATP4 didn't really go into why. Was this covered on Hypercritical at some point? I only started listening somewhere in the 50s.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Lexicon posted:

^ A lot of the salty old programmer dudes (Siracusa's generation) are really offended by Python's whitespace delimiting. I've worked with a bunch of guys in this mold, and every one of them hates python for that reason. I bet that's why he hates it.

Yeah, I was wondering if that was it... I know that's one of Dan's objections. I think Siracusa disliking something would probably be a little more substantive than that, though.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

Diabolik900 posted:

I was surprised no one posted this sooner. CMD+Space is a great show, and I haven't really listened to any of their other shows, but they seem like they should fit in quite well with 5by5. I didn't realize before that Myke Hurley has a full-time job outside of podcasting. Makes it even more impressive that he was able to build 70 Decibels up as he much as he did.

I don't know much about their other shows, but Merlin's appearance on Generational last month (I think?) was pretty great. I don't even have kids and won't have any in the foreseeable future, but I found the discussion of the sorts of things they consider in raising a kid to be a good person really thoughtful.

I've been listening to Hypercritical #15 (Bridges of Siracusa County, the original) because it focuses on high-level programming languages and I thought it might reveal a bit more about how John feels about Python. It's definitely bringing back the sadness. :(

By the way, it seems like an unsung hero, but I've been sampling Systematic here and there when the topic/guest interests me and I really like it. There are some really interesting guests on Screen Time occasionally, too. A few weeks ago I listened to the interviews that Moisés did with Andrea Romano (voice director for almost every cartoon worth remembering over the past few decades... notably Batman TAS, Animaniacs, etc.) and they were fascinating.

patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis

pokeyman posted:

I've also noticed, on the Hypercritical re-listen, how much longer the ad segments get. Early episodes they're 30 seconds spots, but halfway through they're 60-120 seconds, plus spots for "sponsoring show notes" and "sponsoring bandwidth". I wonder if clients were demanding longer spots, or maybe Dan could charge more, I'm not sure.

(This thread's title was eerily accurate!)

I think it's probably a bit of both, as the network's grown. Dan's stated outright what the sponsor slots are (nowadays), like, how much time they pay for, how frequently they're supposed to run, and what time in the shows they're supposed to happen, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

I like his ad reads so I don't mind if they go a little long. The only time they get on my nerves is when they're longtime sponsors where there just isn't a lot more that can be said about them (Squarespace, Hover), and I already use their services anyway.

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patricius
Apr 17, 2006

sicut patribus sit deus nobis
So, let's run down this list.

pokeyman posted:

The Talk Show (moved, largely unchanged, to Mule Radio)
I'd agree with the other posters in this thread that this is not really identical, despite having the same name. I actually preferred the old version. I listen to TTS S3, but only when there are particular guests on that I want to hear (Merlin, Adam Lisagor, Marco, etc.)

quote:

Build & Analyze (started an identical show within a couple months)
Not quite identical, but close enough that I'll give you this one.

quote:

Hypercritical (ditto)
No way. While there are Hypercritical elements in ATP, it's not the same sort of deep dive at all, and we're all still poorer for it.

quote:

The Big Web Show (only listened to this once but I presume its Mule Radio version is identical)
Zeldman actually addressed this in his first episode of the Mule version with Mike Monteiro as guest. He had nothing but good things to say about Dan and 5by5 but said that his schedule was such that he wanted to do a more 'seasonal' show rather than weekly, and that was a better fit for Mule. He said he left 5by5 on good terms. Mike even had good things to say about 5by5, which took me a little by surprise considering the drama that surrounded the Talk Show move.

quote:

Geek Friday (there's something intensely awkward here)
Considering whatever went down with the end of Faith's employment at 5by5, I'm actually surprised this one lasted as long as it did.

quote:

Also has The Incomparable done ads in the past? I'm an infrequent listener but the last couple episodes I caught had a jarring ad read.
The ads are pretty new.

quote:

I can't decide whether it's cool that 5by5 seems to act as a farm team for podcasting talent or strange that it acquires other people/networks and spits them out. Though I dunno how to think about Mule Radio. It's not their main thing so they probably think of it as a hobby, hoping it breaks even. Whereas 5by5 doesn't have another business to sustain them, it's just podcasts. The weirdest part is the bifurcated archives of a show that continues unchanged.
Mike Monteiro has said that in part they started Mule Radio just because they wanted to see if they could do it. Both networks have a pretty different voice (Mule has a bit more of an edge to it, which is unsurprising) and contribute different things. Maybe there is something about Dan that makes him difficult to work with. I can't really say, since I've never interacted with him, but I don't think it's that simple. The only one of these that had real drama surrounding it was the Talk Show move, and Gruber clearly came off as the rear end in a top hat in the way he handled it compared to how Dan came off. For any of the others here, I don't see any reason not to accept the explanations at face value. Marco is a self-professed control freak, Siracusa was tired and already super-busy, and Zeldman was pretty clear about why he moved and on what terms.

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