Wolfsheim posted:

(and also taking over Primm in one of the endings, oddly enough).

redmercer posted:

Considering the real Primm is pretty much just "Las Vegas for those who don't want to drive the extra 50 miles" I find that highly likely.

Vermain posted:

I'm still really disappointed that Caesar's Palace didn't show up at all in NV. It would've been so perfect!

Wolfsheim posted:

You can make it happen, man. Ave, true to Caesar

(Sidenote, but I love that all the Praetorians wear sunglasses. Its just such a weird idea, like when you join the praetorian guard you get the cape and the shades and that's your uniform, because Caesar cares about looking cool above all else)

Wolfsheim posted:

Its just such a weird idea, like when you join the praetorian guard you get the cape and the shades and that's your uniform, because Caesar cares about looking cool above all else)

Hizawk posted:

I just bought Fallout New Vegas for the 360, created a character, and then when I went to embark into the world and begin my grand adventure, the game crashed on loading the outside world. Is this what I have to look forward to?

Stroth posted:

Well, I don't think football armor and a skirt are exactly ideal for desert combat, so yeah. Caesar likes his people to look cool.

Wolfsheim posted:

"Caesar I'm down with this whole terrorism angle but uh could I wear something other than a hat made entirely out of fur in the desert?"

Actually I just realized Vulpes Inculta is also wearing big Terminator sunglasses! And the best sunglasses in the game, the Lucky Shades, are a Legion-only item! I'm kinda disappointed now that, when you remove Lanius' helmet, he's not rocking a sweet pair of Ray Bans.

Cream-of-Plenty posted:

Vulpes Inculta just wears some dorky looking black goggles, what are you talking about?

TheJukku posted:

Pretty sure you can find and wear the same stupid goggles.

Hizawk posted:

I just bought Fallout New Vegas for the 360, created a character, and then when I went to embark into the world and begin my grand adventure, the game crashed on loading the outside world. Is this what I have to look forward to?

Saoshyant posted:

New Vegas is the game the phrase "in spite of its technical problems" was made for,

Pope Guilty posted:

God, if only.

Arrath posted:

Right, by murdering him and his gang in Nipton and taking their poo poo.

Wolfsheim posted:

Two things I don't really think you got; firstly, the Legion post-victory isn't supposed to be the same band of slaving rapists that they are in-game, Caesar's whole Hegelian bent is that the conflict between it and the NCR will produce something wholly new, better, and different. You can believe that it will work or not, but "let's take this rapetrain as far west as we can push it boys!" was not his endgame (though it seems to be Lanius's, should Caesar die).

You're also acting as though the Courier's actions alone will fix the bloated inefficient bureaucracy in the system, when in the game all he/she is really able to do is fix a few specific issues despite that. Oliver and Kimball are still in charge, that bullshit will continue, and something tells me a decisive imperialist victory is not going to cause them to look inward, if anything it perpetuates their bullshit.

The NCR also sustains itself through very limited means, with a lot of their progress being scavenged from the remnants of the pre-war world. They don't seem to have huge manufacturing capabilities outside of stuff like Gun Runners (and possibly Van Grafts? I'm not sure) groups, which aren't explicitly allied with the NCR anyway. The Legion has no such reliance on very limited resources, and while House (the best option) does, he is not rapidly expanding beyond his means and stretching these resources thin, choosing to pour them all into Vegas proper (and also taking over Primm in one of the endings, oddly enough).

Fintilgin posted:

That dude and his thugs have never made it out of Nipton in any of my playthroughs.

Killin' Legion all day every day.

Rookersh posted:

SRM posted:

Vulpes hasn't survived any of my playthroughs whatsoever. Even on my Legion-loyal run, he died when I opened the door to the Lucky 38 Suite to find him standing there in front of me and my .44 in hand. I shot him out of reflex, honest.

VocalizePlayerDeath posted:

I have tried to do a NCR playthrough three times but I have never been able to follow through.

I cant stand the NCR they are a bunch of incompetent American military reenacters. Loosely led by a bunch of fat cat pencil pushers a few states back in the pockets of the big Brahmin ranchers and gun manufacturers.


The Legion is the best thing to happen to the Mojave.

Rookersh posted:

I disagree on a number of levels.

First off, I agree that House is likely the best choice for the Wasteland. His vast amount of knowledge and experience, along with his production facilities and ideas are so far ahead of anyone else in the game that it's insane. His only real weakness is his focus on space over actual advancement to the local areas, but the Courier being his second in command will likely help change this, as House can work on his space stuff, and the Courier can go fix local problems for him. My first game was NCR because I'm an optimist, and see the good they can be, but my second game will without a doubt be House, and I'll likely end up liking it more.

Rookersh posted:

If you talk to the troopers, and listen to people, you realize that they are not overextended by choice, the Dam was a bit further then their original slow pace of expansion, but the Rangers found it, and they realized control of it would be important, so they moved far past their boundaries. With what happened at the Divide, the army is in fact split in half, with the majority of it stuck back in the NCR lands, and only small amounts able to make it past as a time. So the only reason they haven't conquered Primm, or totally rolled over the Legion, and had the situation in hand with the roads defended? It's because of in game limitation magic, not because the NCR in it's current state couldn't handle those things.

quote:

The other big one is that Kimball is a moron, and that the Brahmin Barons are to powerful. Again though, this is easily healed by time, with the Dam operational again, farming will likely start a huge industry boom, and without control over the food, the Barons will lose almost all their influence. As for Kimball, he's fairly old by ingame standards, and not everyone is a Tandi in terms of living forever. And yeah, he might get replaced by someone worse, but this is a fledgling democracy, they'll eventually put in rules to limit terms, or to limit lobbying, and get past these issues.

quote:

Production and infrastructure are an entirely different beast I guess. As you said, most of the at home stuff is controlled by the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, neither of which fall under the NCR, which works for now, but can't work in the longterm. I'd have to imagine though that the NCR will eventually get their hands on Houses facilities, and even without that control of the Dam will help give them a huge boost to infrastructure work if they choose to take it, so it's not like the option isn't available to them.

Eiba posted:

The NCR is the only choice I can reasonably support, because they are humanists. That's what's behind their national ideology. They're deeply imperfect humanists, in many ways dominated by the plutocratic interests of the Brahmin Barons, and the personal ambition of demagogues, but at least they've got a facade of humanism. That matters. They may commit atrocities, as in Bitter Springs, but they're the only faction that would even feel bad about doing that. House would shrug indifferently, and Caesar would be proud of it. That shame- that idealism, even if it's not fully realized- is what makes the NCR the best choice for humanity.

VocalizePlayerDeath posted:

I cant stand the NCR they are a bunch of incompetent American military reenacters.

Rookersh posted:

I disagree on a number of levels.

First off, I agree that House is likely the best choice for the Wasteland. His vast amount of knowledge and experience, along with his production facilities and ideas are so far ahead of anyone else in the game that it's insane. His only real weakness is his focus on space over actual advancement to the local areas, but the Courier being his second in command will likely help change this, as House can work on his space stuff, and the Courier can go fix local problems for him. My first game was NCR because I'm an optimist, and see the good they can be, but my second game will without a doubt be House, and I'll likely end up liking it more.

However everything the game says gives a completely different impression of both the NCR and the Legion then what you seem to be saying. It's almost outright said that the Legion is not a viable long term choice in game, and none of the NCR's issues matter past 5 years out, or really matter at all, and are artificial issues meant to build game limitations.

Lets talk the Legion first. The biggest issue here is their longevity, besides Avellone and ropekid saying they'd be a good choice, the game gives no indication of this, in fact it gives the exact opposite impression. And I don't mean their violence and aggression either, the issue is the ideological worship of Caesar over his ideals, and the fact Caesar cannot live forever.

Caesar says his plan is to conquer Vegas, and turn it into his Rome, and then start teaching his Legion how to settle a land rather then conquer one. A noble goal that would be fine if Caesar was a younger man, and if it had a bit more showing in game. The issue is Caesar not only has cancer, but he's also already fairly old by Wasteland standards, and likely only has a few more years to live.

Even if you cure his tumor, and he manages to stay around long enough to start educating his men, everything hinges on what life he has left, and its way to large of a chance that he'll be alive long enough to fully be able to colonize his army. And this leads to even further complications, if that wasn't bad enough, the men under his command actually don't believe what Caesar believes, but only believes in Caesar himself because they view him as a godfigure due to their extreme lack of education, an issue that even Honest Hearts Sorrows shows us is not something that goes away quickly.

The worst part of this all is Lanius/Vulpes, Lanius is a socipath whose only desire is to destroy everything in his path with his gigantic army, and he's the second in command, Vulpes is also a possible choice, but he is not a leader, he's a soldier. When Caesar dies, neither of these men have the strength of will or determination to carry on his plans, and the Legion will be nothing like it currently is, but will revert back to a gigantic tribal warband, and be the scourge of the wastes. The only way you can make the Legion as it's presented in game work is if you play a Good/Neutral Legion Courier, and headcanon in that after Caesar dies of old age a few years later, he'll realize you'd be a better second, and have Lanius banished, which is again, not said in game, so total headcanon.

The sad thing is, looking at the Legion in game, and putting some thought into it, Caesar does have good plans and goals. Yes his methods are harsh, but in the longterm, if he could force his men to rebuild, and force culture onto an area, he'd be the most likely of all the groups to restore order to the Wastes, and keep things steady, as he's the only one focused on actual growth rather then just using what the old world left behind. They just threw way to many WHAT IFS onto his longterm, and the addition of Lanius just killed it. Maybe if the Courier could have replaced Lanius in the Legion ending? Who knows.

Now, let's talk about the NCR

The NCR suffer from three major issues, lack of infrastructure, overextended, and moronic leadership held back by corruption.

Here's the issue, none of that matters.

If you talk to the troopers, and listen to people, you realize that they are not overextended by choice, the Dam was a bit further then their original slow pace of expansion, but the Rangers found it, and they realized control of it would be important, so they moved far past their boundaries. With what happened at the Divide, the army is in fact split in half, with the majority of it stuck back in the NCR lands, and only small amounts able to make it past as a time. So the only reason they haven't conquered Primm, or totally rolled over the Legion, and had the situation in hand with the roads defended? It's because of in game limitation magic, not because the NCR in it's current state couldn't handle those things.

The other big one is that Kimball is a moron, and that the Brahmin Barons are to powerful. Again though, this is easily healed by time, with the Dam operational again, farming will likely start a huge industry boom, and without control over the food, the Barons will lose almost all their influence. As for Kimball, he's fairly old by ingame standards, and not everyone is a Tandi in terms of living forever. And yeah, he might get replaced by someone worse, but this is a fledgling democracy, they'll eventually put in rules to limit terms, or to limit lobbying, and get past these issues.

Production and infrastructure are an entirely different beast I guess. As you said, most of the at home stuff is controlled by the Gun Runners/Van Graffs, neither of which fall under the NCR, which works for now, but can't work in the longterm. I'd have to imagine though that the NCR will eventually get their hands on Houses facilities, and even without that control of the Dam will help give them a huge boost to infrastructure work if they choose to take it, so it's not like the option isn't available to them.

Ok, thats way more then enough words for this game.

Eiba posted:

House is a lovely choice because he's not a humanist, he's an industrialist. The goal of society for him is industrial and technological advancement. People are incidental.

It is good in a lot of ways, I'll admit. A greater level of technological development will eventually improve peoples lives (though a quick look at the industrial revolution will show that there are ups and downs in human quality of life, even as industry marches forward uninterrupted). He's no moralist, so he doesn't control or oppress people any more than he needs to, but if his factory workers tried to unionize or something? Don't imagine for a second he wouldn't send in the Securitrons to cut them down. His goal is for the factories to run well, not for the people's well being.

Fintilgin posted:

But... but... but... ~TAXES~

/New_Vegas_Moral_Ambiguity

Eiba posted:

House is a lovely choice because he's not a humanist, he's an industrialist. The goal of society for him is industrial and technological advancement. People are incidental.

It is good in a lot of ways, I'll admit. A greater level of technological development will eventually improve peoples lives (though a quick look at the industrial revolution will show that there are ups and downs in human quality of life, even as industry marches forward uninterrupted). He's no moralist, so he doesn't control or oppress people any more than he needs to, but if his factory workers tried to unionize or something? Don't imagine for a second he wouldn't send in the Securitrons to cut them down. His goal is for the factories to run well, not for the people's well being.

Casar's Legion is in some ways a step up, because for all their dirtiness, Caesar's theoretical goal is to preserve the one dim light of civilization in the wastes- California. Personally, I value Civilization more than Industry, so... I can see his point. Of course, he is a bit more of a moralist. It matters to him how people live their lives, and that they be strong and dedicated to the group. Individuals who don't fall in line are useless to him.

The NCR is the only choice I can reasonably support, because they are humanists. That's what's behind their national ideology. They're deeply imperfect humanists, in many ways dominated by the plutocratic interests of the Brahmin Barons, and the personal ambition of demagogues, but at least they've got a facade of humanism. That matters. They may commit atrocities, as in Bitter Springs, but they're the only faction that would even feel bad about doing that. House would shrug indifferently, and Caesar would be proud of it. That shame- that idealism, even if it's not fully realized- is what makes the NCR the best choice for humanity.

DemonNick posted:

It's not just taxes. It's been a while since I did a legion play through but the NCR quests are a lot more bloodthirsty.

Caesar tells you that you can kill the Boomers, for instance, if that's more expedient, but it's not the first resort. Acts of terrorism and assassination are involved in legion quests, but against people they're at war with. The NCR military brass go straight to murder with the Khans (who they've oppressed and abused for decades) and the Brotherhood. You lose rep for brokering a treaty. The NCR puts on a pretty face, and their use of coerced labour is a lot less galling, but Colonel Moore's more bloodthirsty than Vulpes Inculta.

DemonNick posted:

It's not just taxes. It's been a while since I did a legion play through but the NCR quests are a lot more bloodthirsty.

Ending Slide posted:

After the Battle for Hoover Dam, the little town of SETTLEMENT X experiences a period of peace and stability under the NCR. But all is not well... For although you saved them from radioactive death mutants and cosplaying Roman surprise sex gangs, they now suffer under the dark cloud of ~BURDENSOME TAXES~.

-menacing music chord-

Fintilgin posted: