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Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it
I noticed we used to have a thread for PoN discussion but it fell off the map some time ago. With White-Luck Warrior coming out a few months ago and the whole Aspect-Emperor trilogy set to wrap up next year, now’s a good time for discussion, speculation, and getting more people to read this underappreciated series.

Who is R. Scott Bakker?

R. Scott Bakker is a Canadian fantasy author. While he’s made several forays into traditional fiction, the main bulk of his work is a fantasy series called The Second Apocalypse.

Alright, I just put “The Second Apocalypse” into Amazon and nothing came up. What gives?

The Second Apocalypse is sort of a trilogy of trilogies that comprises all of Bakker’s work. It’s easier to think of it as three trilogies of books that take place in the same universe, with big gaps in between. The first trilogy is called “The Prince of Nothing” and comprises the following books:

1. The Darkness that Comes Before
2. The Warrior-Prophet
3. The Thousandfold Thought


Bakker’s in the middle of writing the second trilogy right now, called “The Aspect-Emperor.” A-E takes place about twenty years after the events of PoN and picks up where it left off, but other than that pretty much everything about it is a huge spoiler for PoN. It comprises:

1. The Judging Eye
2. The White-Luck Warrior
3. The Unholy Consult (forthcoming, probably in mid-to-late 2012)


If you’re worried about the series not finishing, don’t be – Bakker’s put out the books at a pretty good clip (six in the last eight years, plus two non-fantasy novels) and has plotted out the last three books in the series. The title of the third trilogy is as yet unrevealed, it’s apparently a huge spoiler for TUC (much like Aspect-Emperor is kind of a spoiler for PoN).

So, why should I read this book instead of the thousand other bloated fantasy series out there?

Prince of Nothing isn't like any other fantasy series running today: it's extremely well-written, full of vibrant and interesting characters, and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else. If there’s a series I’d compare PoN to, it’s actually Dune. It feels very much like the epic scope of the Malazan books merged with the philosophizing and character of the early Dune novels. (Hell, he even steals the ‘awesome in-universe made up quote before every chapter’ that Frank Herbert did). Bakker obviously knows his philosophy and isn’t afraid to let it permeate the narrative – but not so much so that it gets in the way. And if you're concerned about the time commitment required to get into a major fantasy series, you're in luck - the PoN books all range from 5-600 pages, nowhere near the 1000+ wrist-breaking behemoths we're used to.

One caveat – the universe of PoN is pretty drat brutal. If you’re one of those people who can’t read George R.R. Martin’s books because of all the sex and violence, you’re going to find it amped up to an even more ridiculous degree here. It’s an “Adult” fantasy in both the sense of not treating the reader like a child, and presenting things that no child should read.


I’ve read all of these books already, what now?

Read them again. Seriously, like the Malazan books or the novels of Gene Wolfe, there’s a bunch of clever twists and aspects to Bakker’s world that only become apparent on a second reading. Alternatively, he’s also written two non-fantasy novels – a ‘technothriller’ called Neuropath and another called Disciple of the Dog – but I haven’t read either and can’t really comment on whether they’re worth your time.

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MartingaleJack
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.
I enjoyed the Darkness That Comes Before, but I highly recommend that anyone interested read the first page of the book on Amazon.com. You will know immediately if you can stomach it. The first page has about 15 fantasy names and is almost unintelligible. Any time someone mentions Fantasy-itis (overuse of fantasy names in books) I think of this series. But despite that, it is a pretty good read.

MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 29, 2011

Corvinus
Aug 21, 2006
It feels like Bakker referenced Byzantine, Abbasid, and early/mid medieval european cultures. There are a couple rather cumbersome names, but I think Fantasyname-itis is not very valid outside of those few.

Bakker keeps his cards close to his chest; Kellus, the Nonmen and the Inchoroi have been scheming but there are really only hints so far. Also, exactly how sane is Kellus anyways?

Corvinus fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Sep 29, 2011

Algid
Oct 10, 2007


Corvinus posted:

Bakker keeps his cards close to his chest; Kellus, the Nonmen and the Inchoroi have been scheming but there are really only hints so far. Also, exactly how sane is Kellus anyways?
Kellhus is sane enough, the point of the story is that things depend on the consensus reality, if people accept that he's sane, he's sane. Whether or not he believes what he's preaching doesn't really matter, he seem to be trying to manipulate consensus reality to the point that he really is god (rather than just being a good facsimile).

If you look at his motives for what he's doing it is sane in the sense that he's also trying to destroy hell, but unlike the consult, he's doing it by taking over organized religion and becoming a god-emperor, as opposed to creating biological weapons, resurrecting dead gods and attempting to genocide humanity to the point that hell no longer exists as a concept.

Popular Human
Jul 17, 2005

and if it's a lie, terrorists made me say it

Corvinus posted:


Bakker keeps his cards close to his chest; Kellus, the Nonmen and the Inchoroi have been scheming but there are really only hints so far. Also, exactly how sane is Kellus anyways?

That's the big question going into TUC, isn't it? As far as i'm concerned, there's no way Kellhus could've been loving crucified and remain sane, even with his Dunyain reason-powers. The only thing that makes me wary is that Moengus(sp) straight up tells Kellhus "oh poo poo, haha, you're completely insane" near the end of TTT and it seems very un-Bakker to basically look at the camera and tell the reader such a big plot point.

Opal
May 10, 2005

some by their splendor rival the colors of the painters, others the flame of burning sulphur or of fire quickened by oil.
I actually just bought The Darkness That Comes Before but I'm having a really hard time getting into it. Maybe it's just poor timing trying to read it after re-reading the Chronicles of the Black Company or something but I'm about a hundred pages in and it's just not grabbing me.

The story hasn't interested me much so far and the prose just feels off somehow.

What am I doing wrong? :(

edit:
Since I'm sure it will come up I should add that I've successfully read and liked A Song of Ice & Fire, the Black Company series and the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

Opal fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Sep 29, 2011

Eroto-Bot
Dec 4, 2010
I actually found the first book to be extremely boring and slow to develop. I barely got through it and I'll probably never read it again. I am thankful that I did eventually finish it, since I never would have moved on to the Warrior Prophet if I hadn't finished it, WP being one of my all time favorite books.

Just keep chugging along and remind yourself that it gets ten times more interesting in the next book.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

I found these books to be less about a fantasy world and more about the author's own philosophy. He will devote pages and pages of dialogue to exploring philosophical questions and after awhile, I got sick of wading through it.

A Nice Boy
Feb 13, 2007

First in, last out.
I read the first trilogy because I wanted to give Bakker a fair shake and reserve judgement, and I'm sad to say that I doubt I'll read any of his stuff after that. The books were fairly boring, and although he had some fascinating ideas, it just never felt like things clicked for me. You spend the entire series waiting for things to come together and get awesome, and they never really do.

It doesn't help that he somehow manages to turn massive battles into fairly dry, boringly written affairs, and there is a massive battle just about every 10 pages in the second two books.

Anyway, they weren't terrible, and I don't really regret reading them, but they're way, way, way down my list of best fantasy I've read in the last five years.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo
I'm going to say my piece and leave until I finish White-Luck:

edit: I realized I ended up making a sell for this trilogy so I might as well pitch it all the way. This series is loving great. R. Scott Bakker is exceptional in every way, and if you're looking for harder, better fantasy, or even just great fiction, he delivers in spades, and with nary a cliche (I will handle those). No, not just R.R. Martin narrative or character trope upheaval. Not just the fantastic world-building and gripping immersion of Scott Lynch or Patrick Rothfuss. And not just the raw (yet classy) intellectualism of China Mieville. Armed with talents to both match and exceed, Bakker brings philosophy, fantasy and even arguably sci-fi elements into a work of fiction that challenges, and disproves, the classic argument that genre is any less an art form than literary. Or any less capable of reflecting upon the human condition. For realsies.


For anyone reading these words and on the fence about checking out this trilogy, know that Bakker's skill as a writer loving skyrockets, on an exponential curve, even during the first book in the whole series. And that's more a testament to the sheer speed with which he churns out excellence; dude busts out 500 pages of literary rear end-kick every year. I've reread the PoN trilogy a couple times and honestly the first book just utterly pales in comparison to the rest, and can be quite plodding at times. It's very very very understandable that someone who might eventually name Warrior-Prophet or Thousandfold Thought among their most favorite reads of all time... would groan through a lot of The Darkness that Comes Before.

It's also very understandable that you could be turned off by the vaguely didactic, Philosophy 101 tone that he occasions, but honestly if you can't put your erudite arrogance on hold for five seconds to appreciate some of the dopest writing in the game, then the vaguely condescending tone I'm already exuding in this paragraph should be enough to separate those who will take his writing as insult and those who will take it on as challenge (or will simply appreciate his effortless eloquence).

...Hell, you get used to it anyway. ok fine I go :allears: every time

But I promise you, if you've read this far, and you're unsure about continuing, you will be rewarded if you do. Don't let the fantasy-name-itis get in your way; not only is he mostly doing it out of love for the genre, a lot of names can generally be ignored at first, he gives you a glossary lol in TTT, and to be honest, his etymology is just plain dope. They all carry the right...feeling of history, for lack of better words, and build a vibrant, authentic world, often lending themselves well to cool historical analogues. Don't be fooled though...he doesn't pitfall into one-to-one analogues; he keeps some of them vague but all of them interesting, while both creating a very "historical" feel and reflecting upon the real world in a way most fantasy fails to. although niggaz in japan (the Zeumi) is just plain awesome

(yes...on certain occasions he does do a couple paragraphs of Iliad-esque Naming Ten Trillion Bannerdudes And Their Countrymen, but hey, that's still pretty sick, right?)

My advice is to power through the first book without looking back. If you honestly couldn't stand it and not a single scene or concept stood out, that's totally fine. But if you're on the fence, hit Warrior Prophet. It's worth it. And after that, Thousandfold Thought will make you miss deadlines, ignore your girlfriend, and forget that your body needs a steady supply of oxygen to operate. Bakker transcends (but celebrates!) the Fantasy genre on a level that is at once epic and also incredibly, incredibly human.



Also, for the record, Judging Eye put me to sleep. That literal slog of slogs was honestly the most "fantasy" Bakker has ever gotten, and for a minute I was a little disappointed...but I'm halfway through White-Luck and I'm glad to say he's back to straight up killin' it. The Dunyain world series of poker going down at the Andiamine Heights is nothing short of amazing; what a long way we've come from Frank Herbert having to voice-over every single goddamn character's complete internal monologue for us to read like an italicized cheatsheet


Bakker's blog is pretty dope too (if not FAR more didactic and somewhat esoteric): http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/

And finally, if you DON'T have a problem with his occasionally hilariously condescending, lecture-y delivery, Neuropath is a goddamn thrillride, no joke. poo poo gets in your head, know what I mean? :v:





:suicide:

mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Oct 10, 2011

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo
Hey what the hell do the Nonmen and Sranc look like, exactly?

I'll admit there are times I gloss over passages (I do most of my reading while falling asleep, like an idiot) and also easily forget things. But I do remember this much:

The Sranc are made in the perverted image of Nonmen, right? Or at least they have the beautiful faces of Nonmen, slapped onto bestial, small statures?

Glossary says:
-skin is devoid of pigment
-hairless
-about human shoulder-height
-pinched shoulders
-deep, almond shaped breast

Anyway so in my mind's eye I've got Nonmen as supermen, with larger stature, better physique, beautiful faces, (as if God was looking at Frank Frazetta covers whilst on the shitter) and then Sranc as albino, dog-chested gollums with the faces of Nonmen.

My big question is, I felt like I remembered something about them having completely black eyes (no sclera), am I tripping?

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004

A previous Bakker thread here convinced me that if I liked Martin, Erikson, Wolfe etc, that these would be right up my alley, but I was pretty disappointed. I loved the very start of the first book, I loved reading from Kellhus' point of view, but there is frustratingly little of it. I couldn't stand reading from Achamian's point of view. He's tormented, sure, but his chapters read like livejournal posts.

I got up to the third book and quit about half way through. It feels as if he's trying to take elements from Erikson but make it more focused, more polished, but he's missed out on what makes Erikson actually enjoyable. They're just a bit dull.

It reminded me of Robin Hobb, I think. A good starting point for somebody who is starting to discover darker, more serious fantasy, a half way point between easy reading and a complicated headfuck. I didn't dislike it, but it became a struggle.

Benson Cunningham
Dec 9, 2006

Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.
Bakker is the only author I like less than Terry Goodkind. His books are filled with unrealistic characters, everyone in the novel cries for a prolonged period every time they are alone, and the main character is so boring you might as well call him Grignir. It's like everyone in the world but Kellhus is a big, whiny baby.

In the last Bakker thread I had just finished his first Kellhus book, and I had a choice scene I could quote about a demon shooting a bucket of black cum in, on, an about a woman. Now I'll just leave you with that abridged version and beautiful mental picture.

If Steven Erikson has done something especially vile to your family, maybe give Bakker a try.

Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010

Grimey Drawer
The books are much better than most of this thread makes them sound.

My experience of the books was like this:

The first book was a bit of work. I had to keep checking the cast of characters and the maps at the back to see who the hell I was being shown and why I should care. The book explodes at the end though, and it seemed worth it.

The second and third are fantastic.

The first two books of the next series have a similar up and down. Some moments are white-hot, and some are boring or didactic.

The big strengths of the books are that Bakker is capable in all spheres of writing. He can write battles, court intrigue, small groups around the fire, lone warrior monologues, the descent into madness, etc. and none of it seems forced. He also has a big plot in mind and he is happy and capable of doling it out in small measured bits.

His main strength overall is that he has a clear understanding of how to present a believable culture and present ideas through the exploration of that culture. Really a fantastic feat.

His main weakness is characterization. It feels like the idea that spawned the series was that there would be an protagonist/antagonist who had studied philosophy of mind and then weaponized it like a super hero. He clearly had in mind other characters who would bounce of this guy and interact with him in different ways so that he could present various ideas about consciousness and morality. The problem is that because what these characters are and what they do was decided in advance, he has to make their personalities fit his aims, rather than building the other way from the characters up. So, in total, the characters are less than the sum of the book.

I don't think this hurts, because the series is, at bottom, a bunch of ideas pasted into the epic fantasy genre. But, if you're expecting a character you can understand outside of his role in the story, you're out of luck. This is a deal breaker for some people.

Finally, to address the "demon semen" thing. People point this out when they don't like the book, because it makes the book sound like it's trying too hard to be grimdark fantasy, and therefore easy to mock. It's not an intellectually honest argument. Those scenes are few and far between (I think there are 2 or 3 in the whole first trilogy, and one is an epilogue meant for us to realize that poo poo JUST GOT REAL). Further, the characters who act that way are so removed from the reader (we are almost never in their heads, and certainly not on the few occasions when they are doing their grimdark thing--that's always from the perspective of the victim, which makes them properly horrifying) that there is no glamourization or sensationalism associated with it.

In sum, they're a good read, and they are similar to Dune.

Lyon
Apr 17, 2003
It took me a long time to realize that the Non-men are Elves, Sranc are Orcs, Humans are humans, and the Consult are aliens with a plethora of weird things going on.

I don't quite get where the No-god fits in though, I guess he's a literal "god" or pretty drat close.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo

Seldom Posts posted:

His main weakness is characterization. It feels like the idea that spawned the series was that there would be an protagonist/antagonist who had studied philosophy of mind and then weaponized it like a super hero. He clearly had in mind other characters who would bounce of this guy and interact with him in different ways so that he could present various ideas about consciousness and morality. The problem is that because what these characters are and what they do was decided in advance, he has to make their personalities fit his aims, rather than building the other way from the characters up. So, in total, the characters are less than the sum of the book.

I don't think this hurts, because the series is, at bottom, a bunch of ideas pasted into the epic fantasy genre. But, if you're expecting a character you can understand outside of his role in the story, you're out of luck. This is a deal breaker for some people.

Yeah, I thought this too, at first. What's interesting is that apparently Bakker's conception for Kellhus was something of an AI. And I at first found it strange that he would present such an inhuman protagonist, who also served as an antagonist who you also happened to root for. I later had to admit how much I was simply taken in by how "badass" Kellhus is and how, quite frankly, I looked up to him. I managed to forget that Achamian is truly the central, human protagonist of this yarn, and in fact, shared duties with both Kellhus and Cnaiur for quite some time as the leading POV characters.

I think the stumbling block may simply be how ragged and raw his debut was, with TDTCB presenting an insufferably woeful Achamian, a crazy and mostly unlikable Cnaiur, and a cold, robotic Kellhus. And crybabies like Serwe. It's not an easy read, and to some people, not "fun." But as the series progressed and I grew up (it's been 8 years!), I saw the incredible realism and even humility in Achamian as Bakker's mouthpiece. The seed of self doubt and ignorance (referred to as "insanity") planted in Kellhus in TTT, and the faraway hint of humanity we see in White-Luck. And even Cnaiur as a wronged, silenced, man gone insane with his doubts and impotence. But yes, they can be tough to relate to.

But I struggle to see how the characters are unrealistic or weak. Perhaps because they are improbable? And the contrast between their very human behavior and incredible circumstance (e.g. Esmenet as an intelligent whore) stands out in a way where the improbable characters of other fantasy books blend in with their equally cartoonish setting? Particularly when you contrast the "exceptional" characters like Kellhus/Achamian/Esmenet/Cnaiur, who are all "ahead of their time," against the more "contemporary," world-standard characters like Serwe or Xerius or even Proyas, who seem retarded and whiny in comparison. Which I see is a strength; Bakker sets the standard of human intelligence and perception at about the medieval mark, and uses that to launch his superheroes beyond it. I mean, it's still fantasy, after all! Except these superheroes have Watchmen-level real personalities. They are nothing short of three dimensional. They doubt themselves, they twist, they turn, they're alternatively strong and weak. (Except for Kellhus, for the most part)

Years ago when I first started this series, the foremost feeling it gave me, that lead me to love it, was the premise: "what if a fantasy world were real?"

Seldom Posts posted:

Finally, to address the "demon semen" thing. People point this out when they don't like the book, because it makes the book sound like it's trying too hard to be grimdark fantasy, and therefore easy to mock. It's not an intellectually honest argument. Those scenes are few and far between (I think there are 2 or 3 in the whole first trilogy, and one is an epilogue meant for us to realize that poo poo JUST GOT REAL). Further, the characters who act that way are so removed from the reader (we are almost never in their heads, and certainly not on the few occasions when they are doing their grimdark thing--that's always from the perspective of the victim, which makes them properly horrifying) that there is no glamourization or sensationalism associated with it.

This.

What they're missing is that Bakker takes on the issues and themes of sex and carnality as undeniable atomic elements of the human soul and condition. Sex is literal power, sex is old, sex is what drives us as a race. It is at once the most animal of our raw instincts and also the most calculated and abused form of dominance. What I like about his depiction of sexual acts and themes is that it lends an air of historical credence to the books, and makes traditional fantasy seem whitewashed in comparison. What I love is how R.R. Martin busts straight wanktastic skinemax and that's Grrreat!, but no one wants to read about the rape that every single ancient culture committed on the routine after a battle, or conquering an enemy, or integrating a race, or just plain being mad at your slave for cooking dinner wrong. Because it's too nasty a subject for our modern, civilized eyes... But that's simply what happened! We speak and judge from a privileged high horse in a culture that has the luxury to pretend we don't still objectify women. As if in many parts of the world today women aren't still being sold and raped in a whole plethora of degrees and manners. It sucks. Life sucks. Humans are loving nasty creatures. And hey, if you don't want to read about it, that's totally fine, but don't call something you don't understand pornographic simply to support your disdain.

But yeah no I bet that dude gets nasty in the bedroom.

mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Oct 11, 2011

Evfedu
Feb 28, 2007

Benson Cunningham posted:

Bakker is the only author I like less than Terry Goodkind. His books are filled with unrealistic characters, everyone in the novel cries for a prolonged period every time they are alone, and the main character is so boring you might as well call him Grignir. It's like everyone in the world but Kellhus is a big, whiny baby.
This is true. In making Kellhus look like a hyper-genius he's made the rest of the cast look dumb as rocks and completely emotionally unaware.

quote:

In the last Bakker thread I had just finished his first Kellhus book, and I had a choice scene I could quote about a demon shooting a bucket of black cum in, on, an about a woman. Now I'll just leave you with that abridged version and beautiful mental picture.
People bring this up alot as in "heh. How's them apples now?" but really it happens twice in the first trilogy (as far as I read) and both times it is meant to revile you. The epilogue at the end of the second book was (for me) literally stomach-turning. And no-one's manhood glistens wetly.

branedotorg
Jun 19, 2009
I read the first trilogy & didn't care much for it. The big ideas are decent & the depth in the world building is impressive but i didn't like the author's philosophy much nor care about the characters. Not even that i hated them but i didn't care much.

Might read the second trilogy if someone lends it to me but i'm not going out of my way.

HUMAN FISH
Jul 6, 2003

I Am A Mom With A
"BLACK BELT"
In AUTISM
I Have Strengths You Can't Imagine
I think I said in some thread that Kellhus is Derren Brown with an IQ of 10000. I kinda liked the original trilogy but the fourth one was a terrible slog. I don't know why but it was really loving boring and I haven't picked up the fifth yet.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007
Currently working my way through The Thousandfold Thought and was somehow unaware until reading this thread that there is a SECOND trilogy in the series.

Welp, guess that explains why it doesn't feel like things can wrap up by the end of this third book :doh:

I think thus far the biggest obstacle for me has been accepting the idea that Kellhus / all the Dunyain can read everything going on in a person's mind owing to their exhaustive study of human facial muscles.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo

HUMAN FISH posted:


I kinda liked the original trilogy but the fourth one was a terrible slog. I don't know why but it was really loving boring and I haven't picked up the fifth yet.

Thought the same thing. Picked up the fifth and it rocks.

MeerkatHero posted:

I think thus far the biggest obstacle for me has been accepting the idea that Kellhus / all the Dunyain can read everything going on in a person's mind owing to their exhaustive study of human facial muscles.

Wow you condensed the Dunyain into WAY too simple a mechanic. It has a lot more to do with extinguishing passion, refining an understanding of logic and causality to a supercomputer level, and the fact that in medieval times your average person was RETARDED.


So yes I imagine Derren Brown and Uri Geller would do pretty well in the dark ages.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007

yellowjournalism posted:

in medieval times your average person was RETARDED.

Hahaha what. Quite the view of the Middle Ages you've got there. (For a moment of seriousness: Regine Pernoud's Those Terrible Middle Ages! is a reasonably entertaining rebuttal of that kind of idea, if you're interested.)

RE Dunyain, I'm still not all the way through even the first trilogy, so I'm sure there are things I haven't learned about, thus far! But so far, yeah, all I've seen is flashbacks of Kellhus studying the flayed faces, and doing some hardcore meditation, and the like. Nothing to explain why he can tell the backstory behind what people have been saying and thinking.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo
Hahah a bit of exaggeration on my part but let's be real: your average person didn't have access to accumulated knowledge, scientific or even rational thought, and mostly prayed to God(s) for crops. And your average person today is pretty retarded so my comment was more on the relativity between Bakker's fantastic idea of the Dunyain and the mere "world-born."

Also, even

glossary at the back of Warrior Prophet posted:

The Dunyain: A hidden monastic sect whose members have repudiated history and animal appetite in the hope of finding absolute enlightenment through the control of all desire and circumstance. For two thousand years they have bred their members for both motor reflexes and intellectual acuity.

So what you're describing is a lot more symptomatic. Their ability to face-read is much more something Kellhus discovers he can do when he first encounters the outside world than the SOLE THING they train for. Honestly the text makes it very clear that the goal and training of the Dunyain focus around the "self-moving soul" which is about mastering causality, not merely reading the nuances of someone's expression.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007
On accumulated knowledge and access thereto: It depends on who your "average" person is (agricultural worker? tradesperson?), and also where you're siting this average person, but it really might be surprising to the (post?)modern person how much knowledge people had in 500-1500 AD. Lack of access to a public library, or even lack of literacy, does not equal lack of access to a large body of shared knowledge, or even literature (epic poetry, anyone? oral tradition?) But all that aside, your point that

yellowjournalism posted:

your average person today is pretty retarded so my comment was more on the relativity between Bakker's fantastic idea of the Dunyain and the mere "world-born."

Fair enough! We medievalists tend to get a little :hist101: (and sometimes :bravo2:) when that kind of thing comes up. It's clear that Joe Medieval and Joe Modern alike are at as much of a disadvantage in relation to the Dunyain as they would be to the Bene Gesserit.

yellowjournalism posted:

So what you're describing is a lot more symptomatic. Their ability to face-read is much more something Kellhus discovers he can do when he first encounters the outside world than the SOLE THING they train for. Honestly the text makes it very clear that the goal and training of the Dunyain focus around the "self-moving soul" which is about mastering causality, not merely reading the nuances of someone's expression.

Oh, I'd seen the ninja-Bene-Gesserit thing going on, and there have been mentions of the thousands of years of breeding. Thing is, I'm not saying that the only thing they do is read faces, or if that's what was conveyed then I was being overly clumsy and conveying something I didn't intend. It's not the only thing they do, but it is the thing that bothers me The specific thing that I have a problem accepting within the world of the novel is that one thing, the reading of someone's thoughts from their face. Mastering causality and what "comes before" is all well and good, in a Zen-meets-badass sort of way albeit verging on the excesses of the later Dune novels, but when Kellhus goes off about what someone is actually thinking, in details way too specific to be a John Edward-style cold read, I'm like ... wait, how did he know that? Just from the guy's face? Wha? If that gets explained more fully later on, I'll be happier with it. Or at least give him some of the spice melange.

Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010

Grimey Drawer
I think that Bakker would like you to buy that the ability comes from the fact that all people except Kellhus are slaves to their cognitive/observational inability to percieve. How much you want to buy that is up to you. If it helps, you can just pretend that it's magic.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo

MeerkatHero posted:

On accumulated knowledge and access thereto: It depends on who your "average" person is (agricultural worker? tradesperson?), and also where you're siting this average person, but it really might be surprising to the (post?)modern person how much knowledge people had in 500-1500 AD. Lack of access to a public library, or even lack of literacy, does not equal lack of access to a large body of shared knowledge, or even literature (epic poetry, anyone? oral tradition?)

Hahah to be perfectly honest I've heard about the "underrated medieval intellect" thing and need to read up on that myself because it's fascinating.

MeerkatHero posted:

Oh, I'd seen the ninja-Bene-Gesserit thing going on, and there have been mentions of the thousands of years of breeding. Thing is, I'm not saying that the only thing they do is read faces, or if that's what was conveyed then I was being overly clumsy and conveying something I didn't intend. It's not the only thing they do, but it is the thing that bothers me The specific thing that I have a problem accepting within the world of the novel is that one thing, the reading of someone's thoughts from their face. Mastering causality and what "comes before" is all well and good, in a Zen-meets-badass sort of way albeit verging on the excesses of the later Dune novels, but when Kellhus goes off about what someone is actually thinking, in details way too specific to be a John Edward-style cold read, I'm like ... wait, how did he know that? Just from the guy's face? Wha? If that gets explained more fully later on, I'll be happier with it. Or at least give him some of the spice melange.

So yeah, there are a lot of parallels between the Dunyain and those drat BG witches and I love that poo poo, so I may be more forgiving on the superhuman powers and abilities part. I'm not going to try to tell you what should or should not bother you here and you may simply always find that aspect a stretch of your imagination. But I will say that to be honest, I think your average person can be anticipated, the way we can guess our friends' thoughts or words with stunning accuracy. If I devoted my entire life to scrutinizing every face I encountered, studying every facet of human behavior and psychology, and training every ounce of my being to this superhuman level of scrutiny, I don't think it would be too farfetched to be able to pull some Uri Geller hocus pocus poo poo on the regular. Like if you dropped EVERY OTHER pursuit and emotion and worry in your life, and you did NOTHING but observe at all times, analyze at all times. Now compound that with countless successive generations training each other day and night for it, and breeding for it to the point of not even throwing away "failed" specimens that didn't make the cut, but instead recycling them as test subjects and exhibits.

And keep in mind how much of Kellhus' face reading ability itself works under the cover of smoke and mirrors; he often makes his reads or calls people out in situations where he could corner them and anticipate their thoughts/motivations/reactions even WITHOUT looking at their face. And finally, if you still don't buy it....it's still fantasy. It's still a superpower, and it's still just a bit of writing that may bug you or it might not. Bakker's asking you to picture human intellect sharpened to the point of a monomolecular blade, married with the dispassion of seventy (thousand) Cray supercomputers. Sort of like, if Big Blue could eventually defeat the best human at chess...what if a human could think like Big Blue, and play life like chess? So you sort of have to accept Bakker's Bene Gesserit or you don't. I guess maybe I think it's such a badass idea, and the mechanic makes for such interesting developments, that I welcome it with little reservation.


for the record you do encounter a pretty awesome... "melange" of sorts later on heh heh (okay it's a bit of a stretch but it's still delightful)

edit: jesus Seldom Posts, you tl;dr/beat me to a pulp in a couple sentences

mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 12, 2011

neongrey
Feb 28, 2007

Plaguing your posts with incidental music.
I really need to get back to reading the White-Luck Warrior... I actually really liked Judging Eye unlike a lot of people apparently? But when my usual bookstore finally got the next one in and I got it... it was the day my brand-new Kindle arrived, so... I never got much further than the bus trip home got me.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007
Discussion of melange:

yellowjournalism posted:

for the record you do encounter a pretty awesome... "melange" of sorts later on heh heh (okay it's a bit of a stretch but it's still delightful)

So I spent like days upon days reading voraciously and I have gotten there. QIRRI oh dear lord. I have to say I really found the reveal satisfying, when we find out what it actually comes from.

Back to Kellhus' face-reading powah: I think both yellowjournalism and Seldom Posts have done a good job of explaining what role this serves in the narrative, and I can accept it as handwavey magic if nothing else. It does continue to grate, though, when Kellhus and his kids can magically tell what people are thinking just from their faces and voices. Like, there should be more of an inductive leap between "this guy's face looks uncomfortable" and "I know exactly what person and what moment of his life he is thinking about!" or what have you. Better yet, there should just be some kind of "oh yeah, and the Dunyain also bred for latent psychic/telepathic talent". Reading Bakker's description of his technique in writing these scenes, I can see how it happens.

(from SFSite interview - sorry if I'm going overboard on spoiler text here, I'm used to the Bad Thread)

Scott Bakker posted:

So in a formal sense, portraying Kellhus's superhuman intelligence was relatively easy. I would start with straight dialogue for Kellhus's scenes, which I would then go over again and again, each time giving Kellhus more in the way of insights and observations. It was the substance of these insights and observations that proved exceedingly difficult to write. But here again, I had the luxury of time: I would work and rework them until I eventually came up with something 'Kellhus worthy.' I took a shotgun approach.

I find that I keep reading to find out what happens to the other characters, however, and that Kellhus is more a plot device than a focal character in my reading. They really are gripping books, and if the only drawback is having to accept some quasi-BG magicstuff (that and the constant OH DEAR GOD PEACHES ALL THE TIME after a while I started wondering if Bakker had this song on endless repeat while writing it was that much peach peach peach), I can live with that!

Mr.48
May 1, 2007
I'm a big fan of the books, if I had to describe them to another fantasy reader it would be as: An artsy version of The First Law books with a crapload of extra philisophy.

Lyon
Apr 17, 2003
There are specific scenes that years later still stick out in my memory.

From the first book: When Kellhus holds Cnauir over the cliff.

Second book: Kellhus defending the battle standard.

Third book: Achiaman going berserk against the Scarlet Spires and when Kellhus "speaks with three voices" and turns a spell of calling into a teleportation one.

There were lots of awesome scenes written into the books but these really stand out to me. I don't think I need spoilers but felt better safe than sorry.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Seldom Posts posted:




Finally, to address the "demon semen" thing. People point this out when they don't like the book, because it makes the book sound like it's trying too hard to be grimdark fantasy, and therefore easy to mock. It's not an intellectually honest argument. Those scenes are few and far between (I think there are 2 or 3 in the whole first trilogy, and one is an epilogue meant for us to realize that poo poo JUST GOT REAL). Further, the characters who act that way are so removed from the reader (we are almost never in their heads, and certainly not on the few occasions when they are doing their grimdark thing--that's always from the perspective of the victim, which makes them properly horrifying) that there is no glamourization or sensationalism associated with it.



Exactly, people who didn't enjoy the books love to harp on this and the names thing. The long fantasy names thing gets so overblown where this series is concerned because every character that matters has either an easy and short enough name or their long name gets shortened to a nickname that everyone uses to refer to them for the rest of the books.

As for the series itself, I loved it. The first trilogy had the analogues to the crusades and the Jesus-like messiah figure that were great, and the second trilogy gets even better for me with it's analogues of all the Tolkien stuff.

I also have no problem with the philosophy or character introspection in these books while I hated the same thing about the later Malazan books.

Algid
Oct 10, 2007


Lyon posted:

There were lots of awesome scenes written into the books but these really stand out to me. I don't think I need spoilers but felt better safe than sorry.
The dream with the no-god is most memorable for me. It's pretty much exactly what you'd expect from some sort of dark god. We're told that it basically eats baby souls and ever since it was evoked/summoned/created? people could feel it in their heads and point to where it is. Then we see it literally descend in a whirlwind, simultaneously mind-control thousands upon thousands of orcs sranc, and start screaming through its proxies. Then you realize that it has no idea what it is or even what's going on, but neither do you, so basically no one knows what's going on, but you're still hosed because its some sort of super-intelligence directing legions of bio-engineered abominations that are slaughtering everything.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Algid posted:

The dream with the no-god is most memorable for me. It's pretty much exactly what you'd expect from some sort of dark god. We're told that it basically eats baby souls and ever since it was evoked/summoned/created? people could feel it in their heads and point to where it is. Then we see it literally descend in a whirlwind, simultaneously mind-control thousands upon thousands of orcs sranc, and start screaming through its proxies. Then you realize that it has no idea what it is or even what's going on, but neither do you, so basically no one knows what's going on, but you're still hosed because its some sort of super-intelligence directing legions of bio-engineered abominations that are slaughtering everything.

"WHAT DO YOU SEE?"

Achamian's Seswatha dreams have some real hosed up poo poo in them.

savinhill fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Oct 18, 2011

Maytag
Nov 4, 2006

it's enough that it all be filled with that majestic sadness that is the pleasure of tragedy.
I understand this series is not for everyone and that's cool. But I saw someone compare Bakker to Robin Hobb. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed her books a lot but COME ON they're not writing in the same style or with the same goals and are barely in the same genre.

Also seen comparisons to Malazan- I've only read one book of that so Erikson must dramatically change his writing style. I cared nothing for any of the characters and they had absolutely no personality. The only introspection is when Duke McGruffass gets all melancholy over not making friends with his Bridgeburners.

I think a lot of the hate this series gets is due to either people wanting Kellhus to be the protagonist and ending up confused when Bakker does everything to disabuse that desire or to people thinking he really is the protagonist and being disgusted by how powerful he is. This is a story of stunted "normal" people struggling with everything they have to survive against powers far beyond their understanding. One of the most fascinating things for me is wondering if the world will be much better off if Kellhus succeeds.

I was sort of disappointed with the Judging Eye only because it left me wanting more. The White-Luck Warrior delivered everything I was still wanting at the end of the Judging Eye and I'm pretty excited the last book in this trilogy comes out so soon.

Finally check out the dude's blog he is a writing machine. His most recent update has loving footnotes.

Edit: Avoid his forum like the plague, which Bakker seems to do as well. It's full of gibbering idiots who think they can become Kellhus. Nothing good will come of reading it.

Maytag fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 19, 2011

DieLaughing
Jun 27, 2005

We're in a shooting war. We need something to shoot with.

Algid posted:

Kellhus is sane enough, the point of the story is that things depend on the consensus reality, if people accept that he's sane, he's sane. Whether or not he believes what he's preaching doesn't really matter, he seem to be trying to manipulate consensus reality to the point that he really is god (rather than just being a good facsimile).

If you look at his motives for what he's doing it is sane in the sense that he's also trying to destroy hell, but unlike the consult, he's doing it by taking over organized religion and becoming a god-emperor, as opposed to creating biological weapons, resurrecting dead gods and attempting to genocide humanity to the point that hell no longer exists as a concept.

My read on wasn't that things run on consensus reality, but that there really is something out there that passes judgement. Mimara's seen it, Kellhus heard it, and the Inchoroi are trying to create a space where it can't reach. Kellhus's motivation for opposing the Inchoroi is to prevent them from breaking out of that ruleset and prevent whatever horrible existence they might then create. But as for Kellhus's endgame for after he stops the Inchoroi, your consensus reality godhood idea makes a whole lot of sense.

Now I'm not so sure, anyone else got an opinion on this?

Seldom Posts
Jul 4, 2010

Grimey Drawer
My own half-cooked theory is that Kellhus is going after the Consult to get the Tekhne (or whatever it's called)since then he will control all possible avenues of power (Dunyain, sorcery, tekhne).

Then, once he's done that, he is going to create oblivion. He is going to literally try to create 'the darkness that comes before.' He will have to destroy the Gods and the world to do this.

To me, this is the only motivation that makes sense for him. This is the goal he was raised to know--and it seems like that is where the thousandfold thought would take him.

Also, it makes sense in terms of Bakker's interest in cognition and turning genre on its head. The normal fantasy protagonist brings light back to the world. Kellhus wants to bring darkness.

JerryLee
Feb 4, 2005

THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!
This is basically the sort of stuff I read this series for, the magic system and cosmology-building. I don't mind the political poo poo and philosophy, I can appreciate the way they're written, but I read through them to the bizarre, unreal fantasy.

Bakker's cosmology has a very Lovecraftian feel in that there's an overwhelming sense of horrifically evil and alien things outside trying to get in, and slightly less horrific and evil things on the inside trying to let them in, and that for this reason everybody is under constant threat of being cosmologically hosed.

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo
Hahah which I think is really funny because his cosmology is a path that ends in philosophy. If we get an "answer" at the end of Aspect Emperor to all the cosmology, it will most definitely involve his idea of how we can/cannot perceive reality around us. The Darkness that comes before and The Outside are ultimately all about our knowledge and our ignorance, the causal cycle of the world and escaping it. The relationship of Reality and The Outside itself is purely predicated on desire and it's effect on circumstance. Belief makes real, as the tagline for the PoN movie would say. shudder, a movie would be horrible But yes, even on a technical level all of Bakker's "lore" is really badass. Just remember that the vaguely nihilistic, "lovecraftian" nastiness and weirdness is born completely out of his philosophy.

Anyway I finally finished White-Luck. Christ, Unholy Consult cannot loving come soon enough. Kellhus's motivations? I don't think they are to BRING the "darkness that comes before." As I recall the Dunyain were seeking to escape the cycle of causality, to know the world around them by attaining their idea of enlightenment: mastering what comes "after" by mastering what comes "before." I'm looking at the glossary and they call it The Absolute. In a sense I think Kellhus, like a hungry AI, wants to first uncover all "possible" knowledge while mastering surrounding circumstance....and uh, I guess wing it from there. I personally love that he himself isn't entirely sure what happened to him on the circumfix, his dad is like nigga you crazy, everyone sees haloes, and to him it's just like.....woah. New information. Time to re-evaluate. And then he ceases to be a POV character.

CANNOT WAIT FOR UNHOLY CONSULT



White Luck Highlights:
-Sorweel transforming in my new favorite POV character (at this point I'm calling him a "protagonist" of Aspect-Emperor)
-The entire Andiamine Heights arc except for that little poo poo Kelmomas I just wanna slap the poo poo out of him
-Parlay/assasination scene of Maitha
-All that Quantum Warrior poo poo
-Annihilation of the Southern Ordeal including the sorcerous slapfight
-crack cocaine cut with speed morphine heroin and, like, everything. High on :airquote:life I guess. Also Z. Autobhan made a pretty badass fuckin call: if eating Nonmen does that to you...what about the Ordeal eating the loving Sranc?

Also:

R. Scott Bakker posted:

The new side project, what I turn to when I burn out on The Unholy Consult, will be a selection of stories and vignettes call Atrocity Tales, concentrating on events from the founding of the Consult to the rise of the Scarlet Spires during the Scholastic Wars. I’ll be posting them online as I go, soliciting feedback, and hopefully providing newcomers a less daunting way to climb into the series. Something to take the density out of The Darkness That Comes Before. Something easier to recommend.

cooool







I know this is pretty :filez: but TELL me one of you guys has got dat anasurimbor sextape

poo poo was hotttttt

DieLaughing
Jun 27, 2005

We're in a shooting war. We need something to shoot with.

yellowjournalism posted:

-crack cocaine cut with speed morphine heroin and, like, everything. High on :airquote:life I guess. Also Z. Autobhan made a pretty badass fuckin call: if eating Nonmen does that to you...what about the Ordeal eating the loving Sranc?

Oh no doubt it's going to be completely hosed up whatever condition the Ordeal ends up in on the Skin Total Diet, but I really hope it's not magical and comes purely from their mental and ideological states. One of the things I love about this series is that, like a lot of you have been saying, belief shapes reality but not because someone wished reawwy, reawwy, hard and it worked but because it's people that are absolutely refusing to lay down and die in impossible odds that are changing things. I mean, the magical schools can literally change reality just by wanting something but they are far from the most influential powers around.

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IconicIronic
Jun 15, 2008
I'm gonna have to say that I absolutely loved The Darkness That Comes Before. I agree that The Warrior Prophet was better, but the first book was something that absolutely grabbed me, especially as I was half-way through my reading of the first 6 or 7 Malazan books. To be fair, Erikson only started laying the thick-philosophy in Reaper's Gale. Fact is, by the time you're "old enough" to read/understand Prince of Nothing, you're "old enough" to understand that philosophy is literally opinion of perception.

Each series has valid philosophy, and you don't need to fully agree with either. All that matters is that it's possible, or at least, a possible version. In my opinion, that's where both authors shine; they each have their own interesting, and unusual, take on it. I would say ASoIaF is different, as Martin is a fantasy veteran, and prefers being as literal as possible. He's not unlike his good friend, Roger Zelazny.

Fact is, you need to be open to philosophy to enjoy Bakker's work. If you are, then you're in for a real god-drat treat. He near-perfectly meshes it together with realistic story-telling, which so few do.

Also, the slog of slogs was the greatest "decent in to madness" I've ever read.

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