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Started this when TDTCB was released, just finished White-Luck Warrior. I've loved the series the entire way through, even the first book. I've re-read the series a few times...it just doesn't get old for me. For the record, I absolutely hated Malazan...tried 3 different entry points suggested by others, and couldn't finish any of the books. I thought it was made pretty clear that Kellhus' ability to "read" people comes from his training to see causality, not just reading faces. This is what the probability trance is all about, as well. Someone earlier said the while thing evoked a feeling of "What if a fantasy world were real?", and I have to agree. The reason the books draw me in is that the characters feel more like people making decisions and living life and less like "farm boy destined superhero gonna be king, y'all" like a lot of fantasy falls into. I don't think anyone has plot armor, and any character can fall prey to the consequences of their actions at any time. I hate how people pick out somehting that happens twice, and is mentioned maybe 3 more times and then say "Hey guys, series is nothing but buckets of black semen demon rape. Don't read it. For serious." I defintely cringe far less reading this than I do reading George Martin and his flopping, glistening manhoods and 12 year old handjobs all over the place. EDIT: I just want to emphasize the advice to stay away from the Three Seas forum. It is, indeed, full of crazies convinced they know the shortest path. It reminds me of the old AOL boards for WoT I used to frequent, and at least once a month we'd have someone convinced they'd learned to channel. Weird. Devorum fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Nov 6, 2011 |
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Nov 6, 2011 16:48
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Geez, really? It didn't used to be like that. It used to be a decent forum. I'm sad now. 
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Nov 7, 2011 03:09
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neongrey posted:Geez, really? It didn't used to be like that. It used to be a decent forum. I'm sad now. Yeah, pretty much any quality posters that used to be there have left...the only people that post now are making cast lists or talking about controlling people's minds Dunyain style. I visited a couple of days ago after finishing WLW, and left quickly.
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Nov 7, 2011 14:37
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neongrey posted:Geez, really? It didn't used to be like that. It used to be a decent forum. I'm sad now. I specifically remember a post theorizing about the no-god being a helicopter. I wasn't sure if the poster was serious but it just stayed with me because of how meta it was with all the crazies doing exegesis on the book of Revelation (locusts == UN helicopters) and then this guy doing the same thing with a fantasy series.
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Nov 7, 2011 14:56
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Now i'm really hoping the No-God turns out to be a helicopter. I guess it almost kinda makes sense, since Golgotterath is a spaceship and all. I'm just picturing Kellhus walking into Min-Uroikas after tearing apart the Sranc hordes and being all "we finally meet" to a loving helicopter. Can you link me to that? Popular Human fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Nov 7, 2011 |
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Nov 7, 2011 19:09
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http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2447 We do have a description of what it's supposed to look like though, it's supposed to fly around in a large iron carapace embedded with eleven chorae.
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Nov 7, 2011 19:24
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Well I guess the next time I see a helicopter I'm going to look like a lunatic because I'm going to crack up imagining it screaming "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHAT AM I!?!?"
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Nov 7, 2011 19:29
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You know what I assume and hope will be addressed in TUC? How Moenghus got exiled. I get that Bakker lampshaded it with Kellhus's "surprise" that the world-born were merely children in comparison to Dunyain. That, when sending Kellhus to Moenghus, the Dunyain "did not know" what revelations awaited him. But isn't that kind of dumb? What kind of super secret government captain america super soldier serum program just...lets one of their lab rats out? Who trains so thoroughly to master circumstance, to the point of using failed trainees as living exhibitions, and then just says, oh, uh, hey, Moenghus, we were looking at your performance review this quarter, and uh, things aren't really working out, we're, um, we're gonna have to let you go. Just turn in your level 27 clearance card, we'll box up your stuff for you. As if signing a NDA was enough. I can't help but wonder if, despite all the powers, training, and "noble" ideals of the Dunyain, Bakkers ends up painting them as somewhat shortsighted and stupid. What kind of ultra-rational sect doesn't peep out the window at the trillions of Sranc raging outside? Doesn't check the weather outside to make sure their precious program doesn't just get loving hurricaned by external forces? I dunno. Maybe he was playing unreliable narrator, and there's something trickier going on with unleashing both Moenghus and Kellhus on the world. I guess I'm just really excited to get some POV in Dunyainland. WHAT DO YOU SEE whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup
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Nov 7, 2011 20:22
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Popular Human posted:a spaceship So...the No God is just gonna be the spaceship's AI, isn't it? The crash damaged its sensory equipment. WHAT DO YOU SEE
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Nov 8, 2011 01:15
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I haven't read The White Luck Warrior yet, so can anyone tell me if there's anything involving prophecy in the book? I would guess that there should be since the white luck warrior is a prophesied figure. It's just that in The Thousandfold Thought Khellhus thought that prophecy violated causality, when it could just be that prophecy functioned in the same way as sorcery, it's just a particular belief imprinted on the world to affect a particular result.
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Nov 8, 2011 03:57
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White Luck Warrior introduces a few new wrinkles. There's a character who sees his entire lifespan simultaneously and Mimara starts to see glimpses of her future... I think. There's enough going on that I suspect that Kellhus is no longer operating on a "magic is just causality I haven't learned yet" basis, but then I guess he probably hasn't since the circumfixion.yellowjournalism posted:You know what I assume and hope will be addressed in TUC? How Moenghus got exiled. I.. had completely forgotten that happened. I haven't read those since they came out and somewhere along the lines I got the idea in my head that Moenghus just took off and left the Dunyain. Time for a reread! But you're right that it does seem odd that if someone was too dangerous to keep around, the smartest move they could make was to let him go out into the whole wide world unchecked.
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Nov 8, 2011 07:12
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DieLaughing posted:White Luck Warrior introduces a few new wrinkles. There's a character who sees his entire lifespan simultaneously and Mimara starts to see glimpses of her future... I think. There's enough going on that I suspect that Kellhus is no longer operating on a "magic is just causality I haven't learned yet" basis, but then I guess he probably hasn't since the circumfixion. No, he was exiled. Then he started sending the Cishaurim dream messages. If I remember right, they sent Kellhus to kill him...then everyone who had received the dream committed suicide as they were "tainted". Been a while since I have re-read the first novel. For some reason I have always pictured the No-God as similar to the Nothing from The Neverending Story. Just massive wave of entropy...though this one does seem to be semi-sentient, at least. I don't know why I never hit on it being an AI.
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Nov 8, 2011 14:38
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It would explain a lot, now that I think about it. Being a non-corporeal intelligence could explain why the Gods of Earwa are incapable of "seeing" the No-God. Only thing is, how does No-God being free = worldwide plague of infertility if it's an AI and not some sort of unholy hellbeing? Is the dampening field from Half-Life 2 secreted somewhere on the Ark? Also, if anyone's on the fence, Amazon just recently put up TWP and TTT as Bargain books - they're now $5.98 a piece instead of the $14.99 sticker price.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:58
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Devorum posted:Then he started sending the Cishaurim dream messages. Close, he was with the Cishaurim and put his own eyes out to gain their magic, and then realized it woulda been cooler to learn the Gnosis but too late, I'm blind. He sent dreams to the Dunyain saying "Send my son to me" so they sent Kellhus to kill him and everyone who received the dreams committed suicide. But yeah we don't know why he hit the road in the first place. Has anyone else put forth the theory that the No-God is the ship's AI? I kinda hope it's not, but Bakker owes me a beer if it is. Popular Human posted:Only thing is, how does No-God being free = worldwide plague of infertility It's like those magnet bracelets that make you an awesome athlete except your womb dries up instead.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:10
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Maytag posted:Close, he was with the Cishaurim and put his own eyes out to gain their magic, and then realized it woulda been cooler to learn the Gnosis but too late, I'm blind. He sent dreams to the Dunyain saying "Send my son to me" so they sent Kellhus to kill him and everyone who received the dreams committed suicide. Yeah, I meant it to say "THEM Cishaurim dream messages". As in, dream messages using Cishaurim magic.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:16
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Popular Human posted:Only thing is, how does No-God being free = worldwide plague of infertility if it's an AI and not some sort of unholy hellbeing? Is the dampening field from Half-Life 2 secreted somewhere on the Ark? I think that the no god was created to directly contrast with the god of Earwa's cosmology. Instead of some sort of unconscious "sleeping god" (I think that was the analogy use in TTT) made up of the consensus beliefs of a local population, the no-god is one conscious super-intelligence that accesses other minds, except that access is determined by how close those minds are to it's own blank state, human minds that are too "polluted" by assorted beliefs so they are harder to access. Algid fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Nov 9, 2011 |
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Nov 9, 2011 06:24
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Algid posted:I think it has something to do with how the no-god can subsume other minds, the bio-engineered weapons races it can access easily, and it can do it to human minds to a certain extent too. The sranc it was controlled certainly weren't concerned with self-preservation, so he might have just made the babies forget to breath, possibly without even consciously trying. As far as I remember there was a problem with infertility for several decades after the final battle, so it definitely wasnt something the no-god was actively doing, more like it brought something into the world that persisted after the no-god itself was gone.
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Nov 9, 2011 07:30
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Popular Human posted:the Gods of Earwa are incapable of "seeing" the No-God. Where is this in the books again? Sounds familiar but it can be frustrating how hard it can be to go back and find/confirm tidbits like this.
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Nov 9, 2011 07:31
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Mr.48 posted:As far as I remember there was a problem with infertility for several decades after the final battle, so it definitely wasnt something the no-god was actively doing, more like it brought something into the world that persisted after the no-god itself was gone. Clearly, the no-god is a radioactive helicopter AI.
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Nov 9, 2011 07:39
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Mr.48 posted:As far as I remember there was a problem with infertility for several decades after the final battle, so it definitely wasnt something the no-god was actively doing, more like it brought something into the world that persisted after the no-god itself was gone.
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Nov 9, 2011 08:05
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yellowjournalism posted:Where is this in the books again? Sounds familiar but it can be frustrating how hard it can be to go back and find/confirm tidbits like this. I'll have to look it up, I believe it was mentioned at one point during the Judging Eye, if not for the first time. IIRC, the fact that they can't "see" the No-God is why Yatwer is so hot to destroy Kellhus - they don't see him as fighting against some evil entity that's gonna seal them away from humanity, because they can't percieve the threat.
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Nov 9, 2011 15:12
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The idea that the No-God is a helicopter has me cracking up at work, gently caress you guys. I love these books but I'm always really hesitant to recommend them because people hit something like BLACK DEMON SEED and freak out about it. I also have really mixed feelings about the way Bakker handles women. I know his intent is to show how awful ancient life was for women, and to depict a society that systematically oppresses and brutalizes women. Most of the time I think he succeeds at this, Esmenet is generally pretty smart. But sometimes I feel like he really drops the ball. Serwe was literally a stupid whore. In the later books even after Esmenet is Aspect-Empress, she's an ineffective, incapable ruler who's constantly worrying about HER BABIES. There's not a single female character whose sexuality isn't a source of angst for a male character. Mimara's constant rape jeopardy is believable, given the circumstances, but drat, sometimes I felt like even she was just too passive. I'm not writing off Bakker as a misogynist -- these books are way too complicated for that and so is his philosophy -- but I do think he could do a better job. That aside, there are so many incredible moments in these books, things that really stick in my head. I think the No-God as an image is perfectly eerie and horrifying; same for the interior of Golgotterath and the image of the golden horns. The Inchoroi tap into the same sexual horror as Giger's alien. Sorcery is gorgeous and frightening, the Iliad-style depictions of battle really worked for me, and something about the writing as a whole captures the epic sweep of events in a way most modern fantasy can't. 'Biblical' is the adjective I always come back to, both in terms of the scale of events and the horrifying, hosed-up things that routinely happen. Plus the semen, there's a lot of semen. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 9, 2011 |
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Nov 9, 2011 21:14
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I don't see a problem with how Bakker handles misogyny in the books. In the worst cases, he's just showing how backwards, medieval societies viewed women. In the latest books it's shown that these views are wrong when the smartest character in the books changes the laws so that females can now have their own sorcery school and they are actually more powerful than a lot of the male sorcerers. Also, one of the most powerful new figures is the lady who controls the religious cults and she dominates and uses men. As for Esmenet, I think she was set up to fail by Kelhus, and that any other character outside of Kelhus wouldn't be able to handle the situation much better.
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Nov 9, 2011 21:37
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savinhill posted:In the latest books it's shown that these views are wrong when the smartest character in the books changes the laws so that females can now have their own sorcery school and they are actually more powerful than a lot of the male sorcerers. Also, one of the most powerful new figures is the lady who controls the religious cults and she dominates and uses men. Really glad you brought this up so we can put this issue in the dirt. I can't imagine anything more pro-feminist than having the ultra-rational, logic-driven epitome of human intelligence bring cultural change and progress to an ancient society by instituting women's rights, not to mention construct a matriarchal, all-female military superpower on par with the other top sorcerous school, the Mandate. And us college-type Americans with the luxury of being brought up in a highly tolerant and balanced society forget that for all the feminist stuff and equality, women still get to be women too. Serwa is gonna show off those sexy, sexy legs because she WANTS TO ALRIGHT SERIOUSLY THO WHAT A FOX
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Nov 9, 2011 22:41
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yellowjournalism posted:I can't imagine anything more pro-feminist than having the ultra-rational, logic-driven epitome of human intelligence bring cultural change and progress to an ancient society by instituting women's rights, not to mention construct a matriarchal, all-female military superpower on par with the other top sorcerous school, the Mandate. I agree, this is absolutely pro-feminist, I liked seeing it. Furthermore, I think Bakker's goals are consummately feminist across the board: he wants to depict the brutal realities of oppression in pre-modern society. But I don't think this puts him above criticism and I think he still makes a couple big gaffes that open him up to criticism in some respects. Just my opinion though.
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Nov 9, 2011 22:45
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Started reading this series when it was recommended in one of the favorite novel threads. The first time I read it, I really didn't like it. Like people have said it can be very graphic, and feels like he is trying too hard to make it grim dark. However, I got bored and reread them. The second time through they are much, much better. The grim dark frequently contrasts the Dunyain's intellect and philosophy as being a light in the world. That the evil race controls their armies/minions with ingrained instincts while the Dunyain hold enlightenment as their method. This realization becomes more enjoyable when you realize that the Dunyain sense of morality is somewhat lacking. No rational logic Utopia for you! Its very carefully not good vs evil. Achamian seems to represent the middle way with Cnaur standing in as the crazy train conductor and view. That the Dunyain rule in this way, required someone with nonlinear thinking to figure it out. Otherwise the realization holds no power a problem in the white luck warrior as Kellhus tries to explain himself to Proyas as well as Esmenet with her children And now in the new trilogy, Kellhus' children are all quite crazy. And you know what? Crazy people are crazy fun to read and it seems to bother the rational Dunyain a lot! As for the ability to read people's faces - I think it started with Asimov. The second foundation's psychohistorians anyone? (as well as some of Asimov's earlier works) They can read faces for base emotions (which doesn't strike me as being too far fetched), but its more than that. Its their ability to gather, categorize, and remember all the subliminal twitches that lets them begin to build a reference of a person - hence their measure. They can't instantly read someone completely, it takes time. To end, I had no idea what the heck was happening in that first chapter when I first read the books. It takes a little to get into them. Edit: Moenghus left the Dunyain when Sranc attacked and he was sent to scout and see if there were more. Thus polluted by the world, he was placed in exile. bigDninja fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 9, 2011 |
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Nov 9, 2011 22:58
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I'm glad there are people out there can appreciate great writing without needing clear good/evil depictions. It's like some people can't handle a little fuckin complexity in their stories or something.bigDninja posted:Edit: Moenghus left the Dunyain when Sranc attacked and he was sent to scout and see if there were more. Thus polluted by the world, he was placed in exile. This rings a bell, do you remember what book this was in? I appreciate the detail but I also hope you guys don't misunderstand what I'm getting at. I'm nitpicking/curious about the nature of his exile because that's the seed for the entire series. The only reason ANY of this is happening is because the Dunyain let Moenghus run out wild and subsequently sent his son out basically at his request, whether or not they intended him as an assassin. It really doesn't take more than a couple minutes in the fuckin probability trance to come upon a scenario similar to what is currently playing out. Or to consider the possibility that someone like Achamian would actually come looking for them. Just really surprising for such a thorough, isolated sect to just let anything out and not expect consequences. Once again this is far less a complaint and much more interest in how Bakker will play this out in TUC.
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Nov 10, 2011 00:01
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Sorry, I don't remember exactly. I have the books on the kindle and flipping through to find something is a pain, but I think Kellhus mentions it when he is telling Moeghnus about the Dunyain after he is initially found and whipped. Its during the scene where they make an agreement I think? As for being sent out into the world, I don't think they cared. The Dunyain are not really about dominating, they are about coming before. Once they understand and master something by forcing/conditioning it into logical reactions they no longer seem to care about it. Its not like they are some super secret evil villain factory - they are simply seeking the logos/divinity. Its an overall philosophy. Kellhus actually mentions how surprised he is that he can read worldborn men. I don't think the Dunyain knew how far they had come, but then again they seek to go beyond measure and come before so they define things.
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Nov 10, 2011 00:25
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bigDninja posted:Kellhus actually mentions how surprised he is that he can read worldborn men. I don't think the Dunyain knew how far they had come, but then again they seek to go beyond measure and come before so they define things. yellowjournalism posted:I get that Bakker lampshaded it with Kellhus's "surprise" that the world-born were merely children in comparison to Dunyain. That, when sending Kellhus to Moenghus, the Dunyain "did not know" what revelations awaited him. bigDninja posted:As for being sent out into the world, I don't think they cared. The Dunyain are not really about dominating, they are about coming before. The glossary literally says "to come before" = "to master the passage of events" And furthermore their philosophy is to escape causality by dominating circumstance. But we're beating a dead horse here. We'll see how Bakker plays Ishual, which I think we can assume LOOKS destroyed at the end of White-Luck, but houses the Dunyain underground?
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Nov 11, 2011 06:45
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Just want to point out a couple things about the Dunyain. First, we haven't had any POV from them other than Kellhus so we don't know anything about what they expect from his trip. Also, Kellhus had no freaking clue sorcery was a thing so I'd assume they don't either and therefore couldn't expect "someone like" Achamian to come looking for them because (in my mind at least) there's a big discrepancy between normal world-born men and sorcerers who know of and distrust the dunyain. It's been a while since I've read the last book, but that battle with Achamian, Incariol and the dragon took place at Sauglish not Ishual, right? I don't think we've heard anything about Ishual since Kellhus left unless I missed (or just don't remember) some of the end of TWLW Inspector 34 fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Nov 14, 2011 |
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Nov 14, 2011 11:25
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You did forget something, right at the end of TWLW Achamian and Mimara see Ishual from a distance and it's ruined. No idea whether this is some kind of trick or disguise or whatever, though.
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Nov 14, 2011 14:35
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I'd assume disguise, considering they've been in isolation for a few thousand years. How do the Dunyain not know of sorcery? Didn't they hole up right after the No-God was defeated?
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Nov 14, 2011 15:07
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General Battuta posted:You did forget something, right at the end of TWLW Achamian and Mimara see Ishual from a distance and it's ruined. Why am I suddenly reminded of Galt's Gulch ...
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Nov 14, 2011 18:29
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Maytag posted:I'd assume disguise, considering they've been in isolation for a few thousand years. I could be remembering wrong but I think it's a case of the first generations of Dunyain wiped out any evidence of sorcery from Ishual and forbid anyone to talk about or study it.
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Nov 14, 2011 20:25
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savinhill posted:I could be remembering wrong but I think it's a case of the first generations of Dunyain wiped out any evidence of sorcery from Ishual and forbid anyone to talk about or study it. Pretty much this. It is also why the Dunyain that Moenghus sent dreams to killed themselves. To remove the taint/knowledge of the sorcery.
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Nov 15, 2011 02:10
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JLightning posted:Just want to point out a couple things about the Dunyain. First, we haven't had any POV from them other than Kellhus so we don't know anything about what they expect from his trip. Also, Kellhus had no freaking clue sorcery was a thing so I'd assume they don't either and therefore couldn't expect "someone like" Achamian to come looking for them because (in my mind at least) there's a big discrepancy between normal world-born men and sorcerers who know of and distrust the dunyain. Well, we also have the bit from the prologue of TDTCB, where they guy says the kid "has nothing to fear" because they are Dunyain. Of course, they went from that to paralyzing disabled people and cutting the skin off their faces, so "nothing to fear" may have been misleading. Overall all though, I think the Dunyain might be a problem for the author. It's going to be hard reconcile people who want to master circumstance but know nothing about circumstances.
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Nov 15, 2011 18:21
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Well the Dunyain are nothing if not sincere, I'm sure that kid was juuuuuust fine.
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Nov 15, 2011 22:17
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I think you're wrong about the Dunyain knowing nothing of circumstances being a hindrance. They understand there are a finite number of things that move people, they understand the reaction and instinct of people, so particulars aren't that important. Kellhus took over the known world in a ridiculously short amount of time knowing nothing of the known world.
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Nov 16, 2011 03:14
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Maytag posted:I think you're wrong about the Dunyain knowing nothing of circumstances being a hindrance. I'm not talking about the Dunyain, I'm talking about the writer. Kelhus lucked into a lot of stuff, particularly in the first book, because the plot needed to move, and his abilities are never fully explained, so whatever he needs to get done, gets done. This is not a criticism--I think Bakker made it seem as plausible as he could. What I am saying is that he is going to have more trouble making it plausible that a whole race of Kelhus-types would just continue to ignore circumstance, rather than acting like Kelhus did. Either they are naive about socery (like Kelhus was) and get iced by Akka, or they master all circumstance and come out of their hole. I think it will be hard for Bakker to thread the needle between those two in a plausible way.
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Nov 16, 2011 03:57
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I don't think it will be that hard to deal with, though. While Kellhus became Aspect-Emperor in a remarkably short amount of time, he also had the catalysts of the Great Ordeal and the circumfixion. And he didn't just appear and take control of everything- he started with just a few people and expanded his power. The Dunyain are not going to be able to just take over the world in the short amount of time that's left before the army reaches Golgotterath. They may make things difficult, but a large enough force or a handful of sorcerors could keep them in check or obliterate them. I think Achamian's going to find a group largely indifferent to the current world situation.
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Nov 16, 2011 05:16
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