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I understand this series is not for everyone and that's cool. But I saw someone compare Bakker to Robin Hobb. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed her books a lot but COME ON they're not writing in the same style or with the same goals and are barely in the same genre. Also seen comparisons to Malazan- I've only read one book of that so Erikson must dramatically change his writing style. I cared nothing for any of the characters and they had absolutely no personality. The only introspection is when Duke McGruffass gets all melancholy over not making friends with his Bridgeburners. I think a lot of the hate this series gets is due to either people wanting Kellhus to be the protagonist and ending up confused when Bakker does everything to disabuse that desire or to people thinking he really is the protagonist and being disgusted by how powerful he is. This is a story of stunted "normal" people struggling with everything they have to survive against powers far beyond their understanding. One of the most fascinating things for me is wondering if the world will be much better off if Kellhus succeeds. I was sort of disappointed with the Judging Eye only because it left me wanting more. The White-Luck Warrior delivered everything I was still wanting at the end of the Judging Eye and I'm pretty excited the last book in this trilogy comes out so soon. Finally check out the dude's blog he is a writing machine. His most recent update has loving footnotes. Edit: Avoid his forum like the plague, which Bakker seems to do as well. It's full of gibbering idiots who think they can become Kellhus. Nothing good will come of reading it. Maytag fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 23:09
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Popular Human posted:a spaceship So...the No God is just gonna be the spaceship's AI, isn't it? The crash damaged its sensory equipment. WHAT DO YOU SEE
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Nov 8, 2011 01:15
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Devorum posted:Then he started sending the Cishaurim dream messages. Close, he was with the Cishaurim and put his own eyes out to gain their magic, and then realized it woulda been cooler to learn the Gnosis but too late, I'm blind. He sent dreams to the Dunyain saying "Send my son to me" so they sent Kellhus to kill him and everyone who received the dreams committed suicide. But yeah we don't know why he hit the road in the first place. Has anyone else put forth the theory that the No-God is the ship's AI? I kinda hope it's not, but Bakker owes me a beer if it is. Popular Human posted:Only thing is, how does No-God being free = worldwide plague of infertility It's like those magnet bracelets that make you an awesome athlete except your womb dries up instead.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:10
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I'd assume disguise, considering they've been in isolation for a few thousand years. How do the Dunyain not know of sorcery? Didn't they hole up right after the No-God was defeated?
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Nov 14, 2011 15:07
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I think you're wrong about the Dunyain knowing nothing of circumstances being a hindrance. They understand there are a finite number of things that move people, they understand the reaction and instinct of people, so particulars aren't that important. Kellhus took over the known world in a ridiculously short amount of time knowing nothing of the known world.
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Nov 16, 2011 03:14
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I don't think it will be that hard to deal with, though. While Kellhus became Aspect-Emperor in a remarkably short amount of time, he also had the catalysts of the Great Ordeal and the circumfixion. And he didn't just appear and take control of everything- he started with just a few people and expanded his power. The Dunyain are not going to be able to just take over the world in the short amount of time that's left before the army reaches Golgotterath. They may make things difficult, but a large enough force or a handful of sorcerors could keep them in check or obliterate them. I think Achamian's going to find a group largely indifferent to the current world situation.
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Nov 16, 2011 05:16
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Get through the second book, then decide. The first book is shallow and wide, because that's how Kellhus experiences it at first.
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Nov 25, 2011 15:47
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Nothing is a spoiler at this point, the book has been out for months. vvv Read a real book. Maytag fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 01:37
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Last I heard it'll drop in July. I am so hard for this final book.
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Jan 18, 2012 01:55
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The last two books were excellent. It's building toward something.
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Jan 19, 2012 00:52
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Why is anyone paying attention to this?
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Feb 8, 2012 00:13
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No I don't mind you talking about it of course! But is it just one blogger who's being a bitch, and people are responding to her? Would you mind very briefly summarizing what's interesting about it?
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Feb 8, 2012 03:02
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I apologize if "bitch" offended but I would've used it for a male blogger as well if that helps. Probably doesn't considering the history of the word. I can't even for a second fathom how anyone can see the rape scenes as being in any way sexy and I believe that hints at underlying issues for the reader. I found those scenes horrific and assumed he meant them to be repulsive, even when the character in question seemed to be getting some twisted pleasure. There's nothing sexy about his sex demons and anyone who thinks so probably has some issues. Men are the focus, and they are in charge. And the world isn't in any way a Good Place. The capable and intelligent women (Esmenet and Mimara) are shat upon and that doesn't seem to turn out well for anyone. Doesn't seem like Bakker is in any way advocating or glorifying such things. And maybe people could wait till the series is finished to get worked up about it. Kinda hard to judge the message when there are what, four books to come?
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Feb 8, 2012 05:14
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He's writing about despicable men doing despicable things in a despicable setting and suffering for it. He's not glorifying or advocating any of this behavior, in any way. Seems like a "These are the negative consequences" kind of thing to me. Are people not allowed to do this? I'd understand if there was some sort of kick-rear end hero scoffing at rape and flexing his oiled muscles all over the place, but there's not a single good person in the entire series and they're all in a cesspit. As for the "you should be thinking about it right now" thing, I don't think he owes an explanation to anyone.
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Feb 9, 2012 01:34
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General Battuta posted:We're not arguing that he is. I didn't say you were, and none of my previous comments were directed at you. Chill out.
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Feb 9, 2012 02:11
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Do I think these are things worth talking about? Absolutely. I don't think he deserves vitriol from people who don't understand what he's writing. I don't think he should be wasting his time addressing these things. Again, not directing this at people in this thread. Maybe his explanations aren't doing it for you, but give the guy some credit- spend some time on his blog. The dude really engages his fans and puts a lot of time and thought into those interactions. And he still manages to publish. gently caress you, GRRM. TouretteDog posted:The issue isn't either that Esmenet gets raped or that she's a prostitute, I'm willing to write those both up to plot, setting, and the point he's trying to make with them. The issue is that the when Esmenet has been abused or has her generally lovely life described, the first thing the text points us at is how this might affect Achamian. Let's flip this and consider all the time Achamian spends wandering around thinking about her and what she means to him. Also, her thinking about Achamian isn't pointing at how it will affect him, it's pointing at how important he is to her. Which is kind of sad because every other guy in this world pretty much sucks, and the one guy who's better than them is adequate at best.
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Feb 9, 2012 03:16
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Achamian is a powerful man who's trapped and mocked by society thinking he and his kind are crazy. Dude's got his own issues. He's raised up by Kellhus. Esmenet is raised up due to her intelligence (for breeding ahem) by Kellhus. Nobody's really winning in these books.
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Feb 9, 2012 05:27
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I guess we'll have to disagree then, I'm not seeing these big issues that have everyone so worked up. I mean I can see how someone would approach this and think there were issues, I just don't approach it that way.
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Feb 9, 2012 13:33
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^^ Being a white male. It's pretty comical to think Achamian has any liberty. It's pretty comical to think anyone has any liberty in this series. What comes before... I think if Bakker wrote some strong self-actualized woman at this point, he'd still have people dumping on him. Maybe we can look at the aforementioned Esmenet scenario as her being stronger than any of the men in the series, putting aside her hurt and self-concern, and showing a caring nurturing side in worrying about Achamian. She's been hurt her whole life, what's one more incident to her? But Achamian's pretty weak a lot of the time, so she's right to have concern that he's screwed.
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Feb 10, 2012 04:51
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Why would you think Serwa's sexuality is a sign of victimization and not of strength? That just doesn't parse.
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Feb 10, 2012 05:16
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It's too bad he's wasting time arguing with the crazies when he could be here.
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Feb 10, 2012 13:13
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It's cool to not like something and to not understand it, but that doesn't make it a creepy or bad thing.
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Feb 24, 2012 13:06
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Actually you can categorize readers into can/can't stomach it. That dude just said "writing about blah blah blah is just tasteless" which shows absolutely no consideration of literary merit. He seems to think it's gross and shouldn't be written about. I think people should question themselves more. Ask if you're actually okay reading about this stuff (including the misogyny) when it's in the right context, and if you say yes actually try to come up with an example where you thought it was handled well. This will help you determine if you are assessing this work well. And others should ask if the context matters with this type of content- if the answer is no, they should maybe seek counseling.
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Feb 26, 2012 15:09
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Esmenet running back to a brothel had nothing to do with reminding us she was a prostitute. Also, there's a big difference between not wanting to read this particular subject matter and spouting off that writing about such makes someone a bad, tasteless author.
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Feb 27, 2012 03:39
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It's a decoy to help avoid contact with outsiders.
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Mar 4, 2012 05:24
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Pretty sure we can do without the spoilers at this point, the most recent book has been out for months. It's certainly possible the place was overrun by someone. I don't remember if Achamian attributes any age to the look of the place. "Ancient ruins" or "recent destruction" or anything like that. The Dunyain have been in isolation for a couple thousand years. No contact with the outside world is how it's been presented to us. I realize it's a difficult place to get to, but it seems unlikely they could remain in isolation. I mean yeah maybe they've just aggressively killed anyone who comes near, but...
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Mar 4, 2012 14:53
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The Sharmat posted:So what's the deal with that whole "Nail of Heaven" thing? Part of their plan to close the world to judgement?
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Mar 21, 2012 01:43
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I totally forgot he rapes Conphas. See it's not all misogyny.
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Apr 9, 2012 01:06
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Doesn't it say fairly early in this series that a Golden Ark fell from the sky? It became pretty obvious what the Inchoroi were with that. vvv The last book came out last summer, so they're not spoilers. Maytag fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 22, 2012 04:20
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Your mistake is in assuming Kellhus is the protagonist. We're not supposed to identify with him at all. Also he didn't know what he was doing until he had his Thousandfold Thought.
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May 6, 2012 06:47
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Seldom Posts posted:Yes, I get that he's supposed to be the opposite of your typical fantasy hero, but the whole "can do anything, doesn't give a poo poo about anyone" I found just as grating in short order as the typical "we have to save everyone" stuff from stereotypical fantasy. Kellhus is not the protagonist. He is not the hero. A lot of his physical prowess comes from Dunyain training. And a lot of his god-like powers come from an assumable thoroughly deeper understanding of magic, beyond what a normal practitioner can attain- evinced by his Gnosis harmonies. It's still questionable if something more is going on with him though. Did he see or attain something on the Circumfix? I really hope this next book fully delves into the horror that's been building through the last five. I want to be uncomfortable and slightly nauseated the whole read.
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Sep 25, 2012 15:32
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The protagonist is the one the audience is supposed to chiefly identify with. You should realize by the second book of the entire series that this is not Kellhus.
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Sep 26, 2012 02:48
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Yes we're all aware you have super pedantic opinions at this point.
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Sep 26, 2012 03:41
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There are differing definitions of what a protagonist is, so I guess we'll disagree.
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Sep 27, 2012 05:52
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Ooooooooh every book should be written the same way! Scoff at an author who likes to write in detail about how his universe works! People write differently. It's cool if you don't enjoy what they write. What you enjoy isn't the only way to do a thing.
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Oct 31, 2012 15:04
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The Sharmat posted:A lot of people posting here really don't like these books at all. There's also a ton of poor reading comprehension. Sorry I haven't been around the last few months to post "Kellhus is not the protagonist" over and over. A lot of the critics the past two pages seem to assume he is. As for the misogyny, I'm trying to think of more than two male figures who don't have just as many issues as his females.
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May 14, 2013 15:37
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General Battuta posted:He also believes that men are wired to assess all women for 'rapeability' due to an evolved 'rape module' Bakker posted:In NP, for instance, one of the ‘future facts’ referenced is the discovery of a ‘rape module’ in male brains. So...he's exploring an idea, not actually saying he believes this is 100% true. I think you're overly critical and I'm not sure why. I don't see any mention of "kinky" sex anywhere in what you posted, but maybe that's in other entries of his. I am in no way saying the dude is perfect, or his ideas are objective truth, and he definitely could be way off with things- I'm really just against such hard judgments. No one alive is intelligent enough to declare truth, and Bakker seems to be playing with ideas and not attempting to define an encompassing paradigm. General Battuta posted:Do you really think female circumcusion and labiaplasty are morally equivalent? I don't think he's saying these are morally equivalent. I think there's a link between two kinds of female genital mutilation though. General Battuta posted:It's about how his execution pans out. And unfortunately, when he writes about women, the treatment of women by society, the subjective experience of women in misogynistic power structures, and rape, he fucks it up. These are unfortunately central aspects of his work. Please provide your work that illustrates this done well, or at the very least another author's. I get what Bakker is doing, what he is trying to illustrate, so I think he's done at the least a decent job of it. General Battuta posted:Richard Rahl It's such a shame the dude got published. I think it speaks to societal deficiencies when authors like that and JK Rowling and Stephanie Meyers become rich and well-known. Jeffrey posted:Any chance we could drop the spoiler tags? The books have been out forever and I'm not sure/don't remember where to draw the spoiler line. Anything beyond a couple months after a book is released is ridiculous, unless the thread is specifically about rereading a series. Drop the spoiler tags please. I'm wondering if Kellhus wants the Tekne for personal use. We really don't know why he's doing what he's doing, or what he's considered since entering the world, or if he actually believes he's some sort of holy being. Kellhus can totally read Sorweel's face, c'mon. It's another level of manipulation for him. Part of me wants to see Ishual still thriving but I more fear Akka will discover them in hiding and team up with some cool monk dude who will confront Kellhus- that would be cheesy.
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May 23, 2013 16:05
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I have only been able to speed read this and not give it much thought for which I apologize, but the fact you posted it lends much more weight to any opinions you give in this thread, whether I agree with them or not.
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Jun 5, 2013 04:25
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You need the ability to hold names and relationships that don't have explanation in the back of your mind, sometimes over the course of several books. The best and worst fantasy/sci fi authors do this as it's a hallmark of the genres. Mediocre authors exhaustively explain every detail.
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Jul 28, 2013 15:16
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It separates consonants less than a hyphen. The first "100 pages" were to alienate and arouse curios'ity. Kind of reflects Kellhus's first experiences of the outside world huh.
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Feb 6, 2014 02:03
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