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I'm going to say my piece and leave until I finish White-Luck: edit: I realized I ended up making a sell for this trilogy so I might as well pitch it all the way. This series is loving great. R. Scott Bakker is exceptional in every way, and if you're looking for harder, better fantasy, or even just great fiction, he delivers in spades, and with nary a cliche (I will handle those). No, not just R.R. Martin narrative or character trope upheaval. Not just the fantastic world-building and gripping immersion of Scott Lynch or Patrick Rothfuss. And not just the raw (yet classy) intellectualism of China Mieville. Armed with talents to both match and exceed, Bakker brings philosophy, fantasy and even arguably sci-fi elements into a work of fiction that challenges, and disproves, the classic argument that genre is any less an art form than literary. Or any less capable of reflecting upon the human condition. For realsies. For anyone reading these words and on the fence about checking out this trilogy, know that Bakker's skill as a writer loving skyrockets, on an exponential curve, even during the first book in the whole series. And that's more a testament to the sheer speed with which he churns out excellence; dude busts out 500 pages of literary rear end-kick every year. I've reread the PoN trilogy a couple times and honestly the first book just utterly pales in comparison to the rest, and can be quite plodding at times. It's very very very understandable that someone who might eventually name Warrior-Prophet or Thousandfold Thought among their most favorite reads of all time... would groan through a lot of The Darkness that Comes Before. It's also very understandable that you could be turned off by the vaguely didactic, Philosophy 101 tone that he occasions, but honestly if you can't put your erudite arrogance on hold for five seconds to appreciate some of the dopest writing in the game, then the vaguely condescending tone I'm already exuding in this paragraph should be enough to separate those who will take his writing as insult and those who will take it on as challenge (or will simply appreciate his effortless eloquence). ...Hell, you get used to it anyway. ok fine I go  every timeBut I promise you, if you've read this far, and you're unsure about continuing, you will be rewarded if you do. Don't let the fantasy-name-itis get in your way; not only is he mostly doing it out of love for the genre, a lot of names can generally be ignored at first, he gives you a glossary lol in TTT, and to be honest, his etymology is just plain dope. They all carry the right...feeling of history, for lack of better words, and build a vibrant, authentic world, often lending themselves well to cool historical analogues. Don't be fooled though...he doesn't pitfall into one-to-one analogues; he keeps some of them vague but all of them interesting, while both creating a very "historical" feel and reflecting upon the real world in a way most fantasy fails to. although niggaz in japan (the Zeumi) is just plain awesome (yes...on certain occasions he does do a couple paragraphs of Iliad-esque Naming Ten Trillion Bannerdudes And Their Countrymen, but hey, that's still pretty sick, right?) My advice is to power through the first book without looking back. If you honestly couldn't stand it and not a single scene or concept stood out, that's totally fine. But if you're on the fence, hit Warrior Prophet. It's worth it. And after that, Thousandfold Thought will make you miss deadlines, ignore your girlfriend, and forget that your body needs a steady supply of oxygen to operate. Bakker transcends (but celebrates!) the Fantasy genre on a level that is at once epic and also incredibly, incredibly human. Also, for the record, Judging Eye put me to sleep. That literal slog of slogs was honestly the most "fantasy" Bakker has ever gotten, and for a minute I was a little disappointed...but I'm halfway through White-Luck and I'm glad to say he's back to straight up killin' it. The Dunyain world series of poker going down at the Andiamine Heights is nothing short of amazing; what a long way we've come from Frank Herbert having to voice-over every single goddamn character's complete internal monologue for us to read like an italicized cheatsheet Bakker's blog is pretty dope too (if not FAR more didactic and somewhat esoteric): http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/ And finally, if you DON'T have a problem with his occasionally hilariously condescending, lecture-y delivery, Neuropath is a goddamn thrillride, no joke. poo poo gets in your head, know what I mean?  
mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Oct 10, 2011 |
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Oct 10, 2011 09:41
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Hey what the hell do the Nonmen and Sranc look like, exactly? I'll admit there are times I gloss over passages (I do most of my reading while falling asleep, like an idiot) and also easily forget things. But I do remember this much: The Sranc are made in the perverted image of Nonmen, right? Or at least they have the beautiful faces of Nonmen, slapped onto bestial, small statures? Glossary says: -skin is devoid of pigment -hairless -about human shoulder-height -pinched shoulders -deep, almond shaped breast Anyway so in my mind's eye I've got Nonmen as supermen, with larger stature, better physique, beautiful faces, (as if God was looking at Frank Frazetta covers whilst on the shitter) and then Sranc as albino, dog-chested gollums with the faces of Nonmen. My big question is, I felt like I remembered something about them having completely black eyes (no sclera), am I tripping?
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Oct 10, 2011 11:46
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Seldom Posts posted:His main weakness is characterization. It feels like the idea that spawned the series was that there would be an protagonist/antagonist who had studied philosophy of mind and then weaponized it like a super hero. He clearly had in mind other characters who would bounce of this guy and interact with him in different ways so that he could present various ideas about consciousness and morality. The problem is that because what these characters are and what they do was decided in advance, he has to make their personalities fit his aims, rather than building the other way from the characters up. So, in total, the characters are less than the sum of the book. Yeah, I thought this too, at first. What's interesting is that apparently Bakker's conception for Kellhus was something of an AI. And I at first found it strange that he would present such an inhuman protagonist, who also served as an antagonist who you also happened to root for. I later had to admit how much I was simply taken in by how "badass" Kellhus is and how, quite frankly, I looked up to him. I managed to forget that Achamian is truly the central, human protagonist of this yarn, and in fact, shared duties with both Kellhus and Cnaiur for quite some time as the leading POV characters. I think the stumbling block may simply be how ragged and raw his debut was, with TDTCB presenting an insufferably woeful Achamian, a crazy and mostly unlikable Cnaiur, and a cold, robotic Kellhus. And crybabies like Serwe. It's not an easy read, and to some people, not "fun." But as the series progressed and I grew up (it's been 8 years!), I saw the incredible realism and even humility in Achamian as Bakker's mouthpiece. The seed of self doubt and ignorance (referred to as "insanity") planted in Kellhus in TTT, and the faraway hint of humanity we see in White-Luck. And even Cnaiur as a wronged, silenced, man gone insane with his doubts and impotence. But yes, they can be tough to relate to. But I struggle to see how the characters are unrealistic or weak. Perhaps because they are improbable? And the contrast between their very human behavior and incredible circumstance (e.g. Esmenet as an intelligent whore) stands out in a way where the improbable characters of other fantasy books blend in with their equally cartoonish setting? Particularly when you contrast the "exceptional" characters like Kellhus/Achamian/Esmenet/Cnaiur, who are all "ahead of their time," against the more "contemporary," world-standard characters like Serwe or Xerius or even Proyas, who seem retarded and whiny in comparison. Which I see is a strength; Bakker sets the standard of human intelligence and perception at about the medieval mark, and uses that to launch his superheroes beyond it. I mean, it's still fantasy, after all! Except these superheroes have Watchmen-level real personalities. They are nothing short of three dimensional. They doubt themselves, they twist, they turn, they're alternatively strong and weak. (Except for Kellhus, for the most part) Years ago when I first started this series, the foremost feeling it gave me, that lead me to love it, was the premise: "what if a fantasy world were real?" Seldom Posts posted:Finally, to address the "demon semen" thing. People point this out when they don't like the book, because it makes the book sound like it's trying too hard to be grimdark fantasy, and therefore easy to mock. It's not an intellectually honest argument. Those scenes are few and far between (I think there are 2 or 3 in the whole first trilogy, and one is an epilogue meant for us to realize that poo poo JUST GOT REAL). Further, the characters who act that way are so removed from the reader (we are almost never in their heads, and certainly not on the few occasions when they are doing their grimdark thing--that's always from the perspective of the victim, which makes them properly horrifying) that there is no glamourization or sensationalism associated with it. This. What they're missing is that Bakker takes on the issues and themes of sex and carnality as undeniable atomic elements of the human soul and condition. Sex is literal power, sex is old, sex is what drives us as a race. It is at once the most animal of our raw instincts and also the most calculated and abused form of dominance. What I like about his depiction of sexual acts and themes is that it lends an air of historical credence to the books, and makes traditional fantasy seem whitewashed in comparison. What I love is how R.R. Martin busts straight wanktastic skinemax and that's Grrreat!, but no one wants to read about the rape that every single ancient culture committed on the routine after a battle, or conquering an enemy, or integrating a race, or just plain being mad at your slave for cooking dinner wrong. Because it's too nasty a subject for our modern, civilized eyes... But that's simply what happened! We speak and judge from a privileged high horse in a culture that has the luxury to pretend we don't still objectify women. As if in many parts of the world today women aren't still being sold and raped in a whole plethora of degrees and manners. It sucks. Life sucks. Humans are loving nasty creatures. And hey, if you don't want to read about it, that's totally fine, but don't call something you don't understand pornographic simply to support your disdain. But yeah no I bet that dude gets nasty in the bedroom. mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Oct 11, 2011 |
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Oct 11, 2011 05:00
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HUMAN FISH posted:
Thought the same thing. Picked up the fifth and it rocks. MeerkatHero posted:I think thus far the biggest obstacle for me has been accepting the idea that Kellhus / all the Dunyain can read everything going on in a person's mind owing to their exhaustive study of human facial muscles. Wow you condensed the Dunyain into WAY too simple a mechanic. It has a lot more to do with extinguishing passion, refining an understanding of logic and causality to a supercomputer level, and the fact that in medieval times your average person was RETARDED. So yes I imagine Derren Brown and Uri Geller would do pretty well in the dark ages.
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Oct 12, 2011 03:35
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Hahah a bit of exaggeration on my part but let's be real: your average person didn't have access to accumulated knowledge, scientific or even rational thought, and mostly prayed to God(s) for crops. And your average person today is pretty retarded so my comment was more on the relativity between Bakker's fantastic idea of the Dunyain and the mere "world-born." Also, even glossary at the back of Warrior Prophet posted:The Dunyain: A hidden monastic sect whose members have repudiated history and animal appetite in the hope of finding absolute enlightenment through the control of all desire and circumstance. For two thousand years they have bred their members for both motor reflexes and intellectual acuity. So what you're describing is a lot more symptomatic. Their ability to face-read is much more something Kellhus discovers he can do when he first encounters the outside world than the SOLE THING they train for. Honestly the text makes it very clear that the goal and training of the Dunyain focus around the "self-moving soul" which is about mastering causality, not merely reading the nuances of someone's expression.
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Oct 12, 2011 03:55
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MeerkatHero posted:On accumulated knowledge and access thereto: It depends on who your "average" person is (agricultural worker? tradesperson?), and also where you're siting this average person, but it really might be surprising to the (post?)modern person how much knowledge people had in 500-1500 AD. Lack of access to a public library, or even lack of literacy, does not equal lack of access to a large body of shared knowledge, or even literature (epic poetry, anyone? oral tradition?) Hahah to be perfectly honest I've heard about the "underrated medieval intellect" thing and need to read up on that myself because it's fascinating. MeerkatHero posted:Oh, I'd seen the ninja-Bene-Gesserit thing going on, and there have been mentions of the thousands of years of breeding. Thing is, I'm not saying that the only thing they do is read faces, or if that's what was conveyed then I was being overly clumsy and conveying something I didn't intend. It's not the only thing they do, but it is the thing that bothers me The specific thing that I have a problem accepting within the world of the novel is that one thing, the reading of someone's thoughts from their face. Mastering causality and what "comes before" is all well and good, in a Zen-meets-badass sort of way albeit verging on the excesses of the later Dune novels, but when Kellhus goes off about what someone is actually thinking, in details way too specific to be a John Edward-style cold read, I'm like ... wait, how did he know that? Just from the guy's face? Wha? If that gets explained more fully later on, I'll be happier with it. Or at least give him some of the spice melange. So yeah, there are a lot of parallels between the Dunyain and those drat BG witches and I love that poo poo, so I may be more forgiving on the superhuman powers and abilities part. I'm not going to try to tell you what should or should not bother you here and you may simply always find that aspect a stretch of your imagination. But I will say that to be honest, I think your average person can be anticipated, the way we can guess our friends' thoughts or words with stunning accuracy. If I devoted my entire life to scrutinizing every face I encountered, studying every facet of human behavior and psychology, and training every ounce of my being to this superhuman level of scrutiny, I don't think it would be too farfetched to be able to pull some Uri Geller hocus pocus poo poo on the regular. Like if you dropped EVERY OTHER pursuit and emotion and worry in your life, and you did NOTHING but observe at all times, analyze at all times. Now compound that with countless successive generations training each other day and night for it, and breeding for it to the point of not even throwing away "failed" specimens that didn't make the cut, but instead recycling them as test subjects and exhibits. And keep in mind how much of Kellhus' face reading ability itself works under the cover of smoke and mirrors; he often makes his reads or calls people out in situations where he could corner them and anticipate their thoughts/motivations/reactions even WITHOUT looking at their face. And finally, if you still don't buy it....it's still fantasy. It's still a superpower, and it's still just a bit of writing that may bug you or it might not. Bakker's asking you to picture human intellect sharpened to the point of a monomolecular blade, married with the dispassion of seventy (thousand) Cray supercomputers. Sort of like, if Big Blue could eventually defeat the best human at chess...what if a human could think like Big Blue, and play life like chess? So you sort of have to accept Bakker's Bene Gesserit or you don't. I guess maybe I think it's such a badass idea, and the mechanic makes for such interesting developments, that I welcome it with little reservation. for the record you do encounter a pretty awesome... "melange" of sorts later on heh heh (okay it's a bit of a stretch but it's still delightful) edit: jesus Seldom Posts, you tl;dr/beat me to a pulp in a couple sentences mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 12, 2011 |
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Oct 12, 2011 19:11
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Hahah which I think is really funny because his cosmology is a path that ends in philosophy. If we get an "answer" at the end of Aspect Emperor to all the cosmology, it will most definitely involve his idea of how we can/cannot perceive reality around us. The Darkness that comes before and The Outside are ultimately all about our knowledge and our ignorance, the causal cycle of the world and escaping it. The relationship of Reality and The Outside itself is purely predicated on desire and it's effect on circumstance. Belief makes real, as the tagline for the PoN movie would say. shudder, a movie would be horrible But yes, even on a technical level all of Bakker's "lore" is really badass. Just remember that the vaguely nihilistic, "lovecraftian" nastiness and weirdness is born completely out of his philosophy. Anyway I finally finished White-Luck. Christ, Unholy Consult cannot loving come soon enough. Kellhus's motivations? I don't think they are to BRING the "darkness that comes before." As I recall the Dunyain were seeking to escape the cycle of causality, to know the world around them by attaining their idea of enlightenment: mastering what comes "after" by mastering what comes "before." I'm looking at the glossary and they call it The Absolute. In a sense I think Kellhus, like a hungry AI, wants to first uncover all "possible" knowledge while mastering surrounding circumstance....and uh, I guess wing it from there. I personally love that he himself isn't entirely sure what happened to him on the circumfix, his dad is like nigga you crazy, everyone sees haloes, and to him it's just like.....woah. New information. Time to re-evaluate. And then he ceases to be a POV character. CANNOT WAIT FOR UNHOLY CONSULT White Luck Highlights: -Sorweel transforming in my new favorite POV character (at this point I'm calling him a "protagonist" of Aspect-Emperor) -The entire Andiamine Heights arc except for that little poo poo Kelmomas I just wanna slap the poo poo out of him -Parlay/assasination scene of Maitha -All that Quantum Warrior poo poo -Annihilation of the Southern Ordeal including the sorcerous slapfight -crack cocaine cut with speed morphine heroin and, like, everything. High on  life I guess. Also Z. Autobhan made a pretty badass fuckin call: if eating Nonmen does that to you...what about the Ordeal eating the loving Sranc?Also: R. Scott Bakker posted:The new side project, what I turn to when I burn out on The Unholy Consult, will be a selection of stories and vignettes call Atrocity Tales, concentrating on events from the founding of the Consult to the rise of the Scarlet Spires during the Scholastic Wars. I’ll be posting them online as I go, soliciting feedback, and hopefully providing newcomers a less daunting way to climb into the series. Something to take the density out of The Darkness That Comes Before. Something easier to recommend. cooool I know this is pretty  but TELL me one of you guys has got dat anasurimbor sextapepoo poo was hotttttt
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Oct 27, 2011 09:08
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You know what I assume and hope will be addressed in TUC? How Moenghus got exiled. I get that Bakker lampshaded it with Kellhus's "surprise" that the world-born were merely children in comparison to Dunyain. That, when sending Kellhus to Moenghus, the Dunyain "did not know" what revelations awaited him. But isn't that kind of dumb? What kind of super secret government captain america super soldier serum program just...lets one of their lab rats out? Who trains so thoroughly to master circumstance, to the point of using failed trainees as living exhibitions, and then just says, oh, uh, hey, Moenghus, we were looking at your performance review this quarter, and uh, things aren't really working out, we're, um, we're gonna have to let you go. Just turn in your level 27 clearance card, we'll box up your stuff for you. As if signing a NDA was enough. I can't help but wonder if, despite all the powers, training, and "noble" ideals of the Dunyain, Bakkers ends up painting them as somewhat shortsighted and stupid. What kind of ultra-rational sect doesn't peep out the window at the trillions of Sranc raging outside? Doesn't check the weather outside to make sure their precious program doesn't just get loving hurricaned by external forces? I dunno. Maybe he was playing unreliable narrator, and there's something trickier going on with unleashing both Moenghus and Kellhus on the world. I guess I'm just really excited to get some POV in Dunyainland. WHAT DO YOU SEE whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup whup
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Nov 7, 2011 20:22
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Popular Human posted:the Gods of Earwa are incapable of "seeing" the No-God. Where is this in the books again? Sounds familiar but it can be frustrating how hard it can be to go back and find/confirm tidbits like this.
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Nov 9, 2011 07:31
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savinhill posted:In the latest books it's shown that these views are wrong when the smartest character in the books changes the laws so that females can now have their own sorcery school and they are actually more powerful than a lot of the male sorcerers. Also, one of the most powerful new figures is the lady who controls the religious cults and she dominates and uses men. Really glad you brought this up so we can put this issue in the dirt. I can't imagine anything more pro-feminist than having the ultra-rational, logic-driven epitome of human intelligence bring cultural change and progress to an ancient society by instituting women's rights, not to mention construct a matriarchal, all-female military superpower on par with the other top sorcerous school, the Mandate. And us college-type Americans with the luxury of being brought up in a highly tolerant and balanced society forget that for all the feminist stuff and equality, women still get to be women too. Serwa is gonna show off those sexy, sexy legs because she WANTS TO ALRIGHT SERIOUSLY THO WHAT A FOX
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Nov 9, 2011 22:41
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I'm glad there are people out there can appreciate great writing without needing clear good/evil depictions. It's like some people can't handle a little fuckin complexity in their stories or something.bigDninja posted:Edit: Moenghus left the Dunyain when Sranc attacked and he was sent to scout and see if there were more. Thus polluted by the world, he was placed in exile. This rings a bell, do you remember what book this was in? I appreciate the detail but I also hope you guys don't misunderstand what I'm getting at. I'm nitpicking/curious about the nature of his exile because that's the seed for the entire series. The only reason ANY of this is happening is because the Dunyain let Moenghus run out wild and subsequently sent his son out basically at his request, whether or not they intended him as an assassin. It really doesn't take more than a couple minutes in the fuckin probability trance to come upon a scenario similar to what is currently playing out. Or to consider the possibility that someone like Achamian would actually come looking for them. Just really surprising for such a thorough, isolated sect to just let anything out and not expect consequences. Once again this is far less a complaint and much more interest in how Bakker will play this out in TUC.
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Nov 10, 2011 00:01
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bigDninja posted:Kellhus actually mentions how surprised he is that he can read worldborn men. I don't think the Dunyain knew how far they had come, but then again they seek to go beyond measure and come before so they define things. yellowjournalism posted:I get that Bakker lampshaded it with Kellhus's "surprise" that the world-born were merely children in comparison to Dunyain. That, when sending Kellhus to Moenghus, the Dunyain "did not know" what revelations awaited him. bigDninja posted:As for being sent out into the world, I don't think they cared. The Dunyain are not really about dominating, they are about coming before. The glossary literally says "to come before" = "to master the passage of events" And furthermore their philosophy is to escape causality by dominating circumstance. But we're beating a dead horse here. We'll see how Bakker plays Ishual, which I think we can assume LOOKS destroyed at the end of White-Luck, but houses the Dunyain underground?
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Nov 11, 2011 06:45
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Good lord, an author that can appreciate complexity and employ analogues that are anything less than 1-to-1, god forbid he understand and explore the darker nature of the human condition and its intrinsic relationship with sexuality Neuropath rules, screw you guys, it's just a freakin' thriller, and a dope one at that. Sorry if modern cognitive science freaks you out. Which is kind of why that subject matter is a great choice for a thriller. savinhill posted:Also, I always thought Zeum was Africa but I saw someone say Japan. My exact words were "niggas in japan"
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Dec 2, 2011 06:26
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Fair enough, I haven't read it in a bit; so what implicit attitudes are squicking you out?
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Dec 2, 2011 07:11
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General Battuta posted:women in R. Scott Bakker books are objects and lessons, not characters! False. We have discussed this. Not to mention, we are mostly working in the realm of Ancient Man, where the idea of a sassy empowered charlie's angel is retarded and I'm sick of how transparently male gaze that poo poo is in fantasy. Bakker is presenting a pretty "realist" view of how an ancient society would work, with fantasy science and tech, and managed to put power in the hands of Serwa, Psatma Nannaferi, Mimara, and arguably sympathetic tones in Esmenet's beleaguered monarchy. I imagine most female regents felt equally beset on all sides during their medieval reigns. On top of that the Kellian empire brings women's rights and an all female sorcery school to international superpower status. I can't imagine anything more feminist, when the majority of empowered fantasy characters are super sexy stern badass queens and ninja warriors that play more to the male gaze than any kind of reality. And injecting modern day values so artificially into presumably ancient societies grinds my goddamn gears, so, when Bakker does it deftly, with Kellhus as a symbol of logic and rationality, I can only applaud it. You have to realize Kellhus like sending a loving feminist bomb back in time. Women's suffrage dropped less than a century ago, gentlemen. Stop trying to expect that any society, story, or any anything past that is going to be anything but pretty sexist. (Or that the large majority of the modern world isn't incredibly sexist) So to intelligently write a fantasy tale, grounded in reality, and make a strong effort to empower women within the bounds of plausibility, pitting them against the sexist chains of their surroundings, and showing just how hard it is to be a woman, is pretty dope and one of the best hopes for fantasy to be viewed as anything but escapist. So yeah I'm pretty tired of this argument that "Bakker hates women" because it is just straight up shortsighted. I think he has more empathy and understands the female psyche better than some of you do. General Battuta posted:I know, the neural circuitry for sex and violence are intertwined, I get the point. It was just a bit too I do actually mean things much deeper than just the cold neural stuff, but to avoid the risk of getting pretentious and standoffish, I'll capitulate because I do totally understand how undeniable his... "taste" permeates his intellectual treatment of the subject. And it is pretty gross and I do admittedly like it because I'm the type that gets so bored so easily, that I'm almost delighted to see someone handle "gross" subject matter with some intellectual oomph behind it. What I don't understand is how people like poo poo like Hostel.
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Dec 2, 2011 22:29
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Sorry if I seemed to be coming directly at you, when it's simply that 99% of my conversations involving Bakker end in "cum" and "hates women" and "black hatecum on women" and it discourages me from posting at all Maybe you didn't go far back enough in my post history? This was on page 2: yellowjournalism posted:Really glad you brought this up so we can put this issue in the dirt. Forgive me if my tone rings vaguely hostile but I've been saying stuff like this over and over all thread like I'm playing whack a mole. e: Admittedly my mind sort of lumps all the Bakker-misogyny posts together, and you might be frustrated because you're only expressing just one angle or lament, but the thing is, to me nearly all of these accusations are still just splinters of the same, disturbing knee-jerk attitude I keep seeing from people who level criticisms at Bakker because they misunderstand his "rough" (lack of a better word) but realist characterization of females. If you appreciate that his thinking behind Esmenet in White-Luck was to present a woman trapped by her sex, biologically and sociologically, then I think you get what I'm arguing for. e2: I should just make it abundantly clear that I don't really reply directly at people in this thread. I mostly just see words and then shout airy proclamations from a rickety soap box mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 23:33
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Of course a male author can write a female character and/or perspective as well as a male one. I don't think you really need examples for that, the field of psychology is proof enough; all it takes is some studying and plenty of empathy. And to me Bakker's incessant waxing philosophical about mankind's shortsighted, self-centered lack of empathy is my "tell" that he has made a concerted effort in his own life to combat his own innate, human certainty and its correspondingly egocentric perspective, and has perhaps spent some time learning about the female psyche. I do want to say that I respectfully disagree that the nasty, sexual stuff is merely "issues." Yes I think his fascination with the subject matter expresses itself in the perverse. I'm not saying that Dude does NOT have a sex dungeon in his basement. At this point I feel like we're basically discussing style rather than his moral or gender views, and so all I ask is that you consider my take. I personally think the elements of graphic sex and rape in The Second Apocalypse aren't born out of simply deviant tastes, like dude is really into hentai or some poo poo. I genuinely think it's because part of his vision of this ancient, fantastic, yet utterly realist world takes into account the sheer...weight of sex, and its relation to power, life, man and animal, good and evil. That chastity came with civilization. That before large-scale organized religion people worshiped fertility, and sex. That sex is old. Like, I think it's cool that someone has the balls to depict the old world how it was: it was really not too long ago that rape and pillage was par for the course. As if mankind hasn't been perverted as gently caress by our modern standards. Our modern depictions shy so far away from just how brutish sex and treatment of women has been, I feel that it's a disservice to the women who are treated like poo poo today, in countless, countless countries across the world where women are still viewed as babymachines. In truth, Earwa is not so far from our own, in terms of man's pettiness, arrogance, short-sightedness, and abusive, violent nature (not to mention misogyny). Yet amid his dark and cold world he DOES provide a shining beacon of hope, and that is Intelligence, and its acknowledgement of uncertainty. Our heroes and sympathetic characters are all smart. So it's actually a quite hopeful view of rational logic as our saving grace. Anyway okay so when you apply a harsh view of reality and how sex is undeniably intertwined to the core of our being, psyche, and mechanics of survival and life, to his completely insane swords-and-sandals-and-aliens fantasy world, wouldn't his ultimate manifestations of evil be obsessed with complete domination and profound violation? And how was that expressed, in the most base and ancient terms? Huge black cum spitting demon triple-cocks from space, that's how I surrender mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 10:20
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Guaranteed freak nasty at home with the missus
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Dec 8, 2011 22:10
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