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I noticed we used to have a thread for PoN discussion but it fell off the map some time ago. With White-Luck Warrior coming out a few months ago and the whole Aspect-Emperor trilogy set to wrap up next year, now’s a good time for discussion, speculation, and getting more people to read this underappreciated series. Who is R. Scott Bakker? R. Scott Bakker is a Canadian fantasy author. While he’s made several forays into traditional fiction, the main bulk of his work is a fantasy series called The Second Apocalypse. Alright, I just put “The Second Apocalypse” into Amazon and nothing came up. What gives? The Second Apocalypse is sort of a trilogy of trilogies that comprises all of Bakker’s work. It’s easier to think of it as three trilogies of books that take place in the same universe, with big gaps in between. The first trilogy is called “The Prince of Nothing” and comprises the following books: 1. The Darkness that Comes Before 2. The Warrior-Prophet 3. The Thousandfold Thought Bakker’s in the middle of writing the second trilogy right now, called “The Aspect-Emperor.” A-E takes place about twenty years after the events of PoN and picks up where it left off, but other than that pretty much everything about it is a huge spoiler for PoN. It comprises: 1. The Judging Eye 2. The White-Luck Warrior 3. The Unholy Consult (forthcoming, probably in mid-to-late 2012) If you’re worried about the series not finishing, don’t be – Bakker’s put out the books at a pretty good clip (six in the last eight years, plus two non-fantasy novels) and has plotted out the last three books in the series. The title of the third trilogy is as yet unrevealed, it’s apparently a huge spoiler for TUC (much like Aspect-Emperor is kind of a spoiler for PoN). So, why should I read this book instead of the thousand other bloated fantasy series out there? Prince of Nothing isn't like any other fantasy series running today: it's extremely well-written, full of vibrant and interesting characters, and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else. If there’s a series I’d compare PoN to, it’s actually Dune. It feels very much like the epic scope of the Malazan books merged with the philosophizing and character of the early Dune novels. (Hell, he even steals the ‘awesome in-universe made up quote before every chapter’ that Frank Herbert did). Bakker obviously knows his philosophy and isn’t afraid to let it permeate the narrative – but not so much so that it gets in the way. And if you're concerned about the time commitment required to get into a major fantasy series, you're in luck - the PoN books all range from 5-600 pages, nowhere near the 1000+ wrist-breaking behemoths we're used to. One caveat – the universe of PoN is pretty drat brutal. If you’re one of those people who can’t read George R.R. Martin’s books because of all the sex and violence, you’re going to find it amped up to an even more ridiculous degree here. It’s an “Adult” fantasy in both the sense of not treating the reader like a child, and presenting things that no child should read. I’ve read all of these books already, what now? Read them again. Seriously, like the Malazan books or the novels of Gene Wolfe, there’s a bunch of clever twists and aspects to Bakker’s world that only become apparent on a second reading. Alternatively, he’s also written two non-fantasy novels – a ‘technothriller’ called Neuropath and another called Disciple of the Dog – but I haven’t read either and can’t really comment on whether they’re worth your time.
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Sep 28, 2011 18:36
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Corvinus posted:
That's the big question going into TUC, isn't it? As far as i'm concerned, there's no way Kellhus could've been loving crucified and remain sane, even with his Dunyain reason-powers. The only thing that makes me wary is that Moengus(sp) straight up tells Kellhus "oh poo poo, haha, you're completely insane" near the end of TTT and it seems very un-Bakker to basically look at the camera and tell the reader such a big plot point.
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Sep 29, 2011 13:26
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Now i'm really hoping the No-God turns out to be a helicopter. I guess it almost kinda makes sense, since Golgotterath is a spaceship and all. I'm just picturing Kellhus walking into Min-Uroikas after tearing apart the Sranc hordes and being all "we finally meet" to a loving helicopter. Can you link me to that? Popular Human fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Nov 7, 2011 |
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Nov 7, 2011 19:09
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It would explain a lot, now that I think about it. Being a non-corporeal intelligence could explain why the Gods of Earwa are incapable of "seeing" the No-God. Only thing is, how does No-God being free = worldwide plague of infertility if it's an AI and not some sort of unholy hellbeing? Is the dampening field from Half-Life 2 secreted somewhere on the Ark? Also, if anyone's on the fence, Amazon just recently put up TWP and TTT as Bargain books - they're now $5.98 a piece instead of the $14.99 sticker price.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:58
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yellowjournalism posted:Where is this in the books again? Sounds familiar but it can be frustrating how hard it can be to go back and find/confirm tidbits like this. I'll have to look it up, I believe it was mentioned at one point during the Judging Eye, if not for the first time. IIRC, the fact that they can't "see" the No-God is why Yatwer is so hot to destroy Kellhus - they don't see him as fighting against some evil entity that's gonna seal them away from humanity, because they can't percieve the threat.
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Nov 9, 2011 15:12
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So, on a whim I bought Neuropath for the Kindle and read it. Don't read Neuropath. It's not very good, and it really, REALLY doesn't help contradict the "Bakker is a sex pervert" crowd. This book actually brought my opinion of him down a little bit, and made me think he actually shows admirable restraint when writing his fantasy novels.
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Nov 23, 2011 16:29
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Yeah, I had no problem with the cognitive science stuff (other than how it tended to be expounded by the narrator in ten page speeches that slowed the plot way down), I specifically said it doesn't help the perception that Bakker is some sex fiend. It's really obvious from Neuropath that he really 'digs' rape and cuckolding how many loving times do we hear about Thomas' wife/girlfriend/fuckbuddy banging someone else behind his back or RIGHT in front of him, especially considering how short of a novel it is. Also, the reveal of The Chiropractor was just loving stupid.
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Dec 2, 2011 14:21
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General Battuta posted:Wait holy poo poo, I don't remember this Is that the No-God talking? drat, that sounds like some fourth wall poo poo there  I really need to reread these books before TUC comes out. Has Bakker mentioned how close it is to being done?
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Jan 17, 2012 16:42
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General Battuta posted:That soon? No loving way. Ever since Bakker has said that the title of the third trilogy is a spoiler, i've just been taking it for granted that it's going to be called "The Second Apocalypse" and that TUC will end with the No-God coming back.
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Jan 18, 2012 18:12
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General Battuta posted:Oh poo poo, that's bad. I've been following that to an extent. Bakker should really know better than to feed the trolls. Popular Human fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Feb 8, 2012 |
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Feb 8, 2012 00:06
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Edged Hymn posted:Hey can someone link to that new PoN forum? I believe it's this one. (at least, this is the one Bakker's been pimping out on his blog)
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May 29, 2012 16:40
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I've only finished The Warrior Prophet. There's no more chapters like The Warrior Prophet's epilogue are there? I haven't read these books since before I wrote the OP and can only vaguely remember which events happened in which book, but I immediately knew exactly what you were talking about. That's a little depressing. To answer your question, not really. Some bits of TJE get pretty bad, but never quite that bad. Popular Human fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 17:00
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Well now you've spoiled it for us all! Just kidding, those books are trash, don't ever read them.
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Feb 23, 2013 13:58
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I thought we were all agreed that it's a helicopter.
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Apr 26, 2013 12:48
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Not trying to dredge up old arguments, but I think most of the negativity comes from the fact that even compared to other "adult" fantasy like A Song of Ice and Fire Bakker is pretty extreme. Within the context of the book it makes sense (the stuff with the Inchoroi is supposed to be loving horrifying), but a lot of it can be easily broken down into memes that make the books sound stupid and porny (how many times have you read some variant of 'lol black demon jizz' in this thread?) Also it's probably the most misogynistic series I've ever read. To reuse Martin as an example, I can name a half-dozen competent female characters from ASoIaF off the top of my head, but I'm struggling to come up with a single one in PoN (at least one who doesn't become a mewling thrall to Kellhus). This doesn't really wreck the novels, but it makes them really, really easy for people who haven't read them to criticize. Also I think a lot of people's opinions of Bakker dropped a little bit in this thread when we read/heard about Neuropath and realized that the reason there's lots of rape/cuckolding/mind-control sex in PoN is because he finds it personally titillating. Popular Human fucked around with this message at 12:57 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 12:55
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Holy poo poo does it really say that somewhere on Bakker's blog  I never expected someone who's put so much of it in his books to have such a thorough misunderstanding of rape.
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May 14, 2013 17:29
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Man, imagine if this and Echopraxia came out within a month of each other 
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Oct 4, 2013 16:33
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